SNP and Greens coalition.

[Roxy Hearts]

5 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Less concerned about governance and more on the economy. Until someone presents a water tight plan that's independently scrutinised with expert opinion that the economy at the very least won't get any worse, I'm not having it

 

Only a dafty would vote to be potentially worse off.

What's Westminster's plans? More debt, larger deficit, tax increases again! What's their vision? I wouldn't mind paying a little more tax if it solely benefitted Scotland.

[manaliveits105]

making Ncuti Gatwa (Scottish actor born in Rwanda)the new Doctor Who is just another unionist ploy against Indy 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

making Ncuti Gatwa (Scottish actor born in Rwanda)the new Doctor Who is just another unionist ploy against Indy 

I stopped watching DR Who after Tom Baker left it ! I've heard it only went downhill from then  

[Lord Montpelier]

36 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

What's Westminster's plans? More debt, larger deficit, tax increases again! What's their vision? I wouldn't mind paying a little more tax if it solely benefitted Scotland.

Some of us are already paying a little more tax to benefit Scotland. With little visible return. 

[The Dragon Reborn]

4 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

That is the problem here.

 

We are getting no clear vision on how that is feasible.  Everything spouted is idealistic bluff and bluster with no details committed for scrutiny.

Definitely is a problem and there’s plenty of questions that are going to be needed answered in the white paper. Personally I’d be willing to put up with a few years of transition/economic downturn in order to create a Scotland which is a better plan for my children and their children. 

[XB52]

I love all the unionists wanting an economic plan written in blood before Scottish independence. For Brexit they were perfectly happy with a slogan on the side of a bus 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, XB52 said:

I love all the unionists wanting an economic plan written in blood before Scottish independence. For Brexit they were perfectly happy with a slogan on the side of a bus 

Eh?

Lots of unionists voted remain quite a few nationalists voted to leave.

Stop typing pish.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Ked

[Ked]

13 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Definitely is a problem and there’s plenty of questions that are going to be needed answered in the white paper. Personally I’d be willing to put up with a few years of transition/economic downturn in order to create a Scotland which is a better plan for my children and their children. 

Rees Mogg says the same about brexit.

[XB52]

3 minutes ago, Ked said:

Eh?

Lots of unionists voted remain quite a few nationalists voted to leave.

Stop typing pish.

Piss off 

[Ked]

Just now, XB52 said:

Piss off 

Nae wonder what a load of pish yer post wis.

🤣

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Some of us are already paying a little more tax to benefit Scotland. With little visible return. 

Why don't you ask your local MSP or write to the SNP or check their website to see if they've spent your hard earned cash. 

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

Why don't you ask your local MSP or write to the SNP or check their website to see if they've spent your hard earned cash. 

I'd like to think they have more important things to do than talk to me. 

[The Dragon Reborn]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

Rees Mogg says the same about brexit.

Exactly. Difference being he and his chums waited until after the referendum to admit it 🙄

[The Dragon Reborn]

21 minutes ago, jonesy said:

The indy zealots (and many those vehemently opposed, TBF) find it much easier to paint things in broad brush strokes. Makes thinking about things less taxing when you just split the world according to referenda choices. Nuance, genuine evaluation of alternative perspectives and, like, y'know, thinking, all take up too much of what little cognitive processing space they have remaining after the rent-free lodger* takes up residence.

 

*BJ/NS (delete as applicable)

It’s not just on independence, loads of topics where people are so entrenched and refuse to even consider other people’s views, arguments or opinions. It’s frustrating and only been made worse by social media.

[Ked]

25 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Exactly. Difference being he and his chums waited until after the referendum to admit it 🙄

There is an economic case to be made for independence.

A good one.

It can't be a high tax high spend one though.

The working poor can't be taxed anymore.

And hitting folk on 42 grand and over with 40% is absolutely brutal.

Higher tax is proven not to increase revenue.

Which is the main reason that conservatives should not vote the current thiefs in power(London).

 

 

 

 

[Ked]

54 minutes ago, jonesy said:

The indy zealots (and many those vehemently opposed, TBF) find it much easier to paint things in broad brush strokes. Makes thinking about things less taxing when you just split the world according to referenda choices. Nuance, genuine evaluation of alternative perspectives and, like, y'know, thinking, all take up too much of what little cognitive processing space they have remaining after the rent-free lodger* takes up residence.

 

*BJ/NS (delete as applicable)

You could take the comments of true blue tories and true dark blue nationalists and swap them as they defend their party despite the failings that are obvious.

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I'd like to think they have more important things to do than talk to me. 

It's their job! 

[Guest]

Looking forward to see how their relationship with Sinn Fein develops.

[Ainsley Harriott]

8 hours ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Looking forward to see how their relationship with Sinn Fein develops.

,🤮🤮🤮🤮

[Japan Jambo]

19 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Occasionally feels a bit like that already Dirk. Mr and Mrs Murrell calling the shots from their living room.

 

surely not the same living room?

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

surely not the same living room?

Probably not to be fair I believe she keeps him in their shed. 

[Lord Montpelier]

8 hours ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Looking forward to see how their relationship with Sinn Fein develops.

Peas from the same pod. 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Exactly. And just like OF fans, if you criticise their 'side' then you get accused of being on the other. They just don't get that things are not black and white, no matter how much they refuse to acknowledge the vast amounts of grey in between.

 

But really, so what? On any subject there are plenty who won't involve in your style of debate. No one forces a reply, we can all choose our own conversation.

 

 

In reply to Ked, 

"the comments of true blue tories and true dark blue nationalists and swap them as they defend their party"

 

I'm a nationalist (sky blue, please) but it's a false equivalence, the Tories are a party, Scottish independence is a cause. What's my party?

[Unknown user]

31 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Sure bud, but the opportunities for conversation and discussion are somewhat limited by the fact that anyone showing the slightest suspicion or hesitation towards Scottish independence, Sturgeon or the SNP is immediately branded an evil Tory Brexiteer. It's playground stuff.

 

Just as anyone who offers a preference for independence is a Krankie loving SNP lover, but again, so what?

If we don't fancy engaging with someone, we ignore them, if the chat doesn't meet our needs, we find another chat.

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Agree to a point, although that's also how 'echo chambers' start  

Not when there are 2 opposing factions.

If you really can't take it, this isn't the place to satisfy your political needs, it's no biggie.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Smithee

[Lord Montpelier]

15 hours ago, XB52 said:

Piss off 

Straight out the SNP debating skills handbook that one. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Peas from the same pod. 

[Roxy Hearts]

14 hours ago, jonesy said:

The indy zealots (and many those vehemently opposed, TBF) find it much easier to paint things in broad brush strokes. Makes thinking about things less taxing when you just split the world according to referenda choices. Nuance, genuine evaluation of alternative perspectives and, like, y'know, thinking, all take up too much of what little cognitive processing space they have remaining after the rent-free lodger* takes up residence.

 

*BJ/NS (delete as applicable)

Are you trying to raise the intellect of the unionists on here Jonesy? 🤣

[Ked]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

But really, so what? On any subject there are plenty who won't involve in your style of debate. No one forces a reply, we can all choose our own conversation.

 

 

In reply to Ked, 

"the comments of true blue tories and true dark blue nationalists and swap them as they defend their party"

 

I'm a nationalist (sky blue, please) but it's a false equivalence, the Tories are a party, Scottish independence is a cause. What's my party?

The SNP have failed on health there should be no debate on that.

Yet you argued with me that they hadn't.

The SNP have consistently failed on housing .

Yet you argued with me on that.

And used similar arguments as I read on other sites from Tories.

Using anecdotal evidence such as the NHS did alright for me.

 

Jack D posted an article by a pro independence writer that spelt out these failings.

 

You can look at one thread on here and swap the names .

Both defend and attack with the same criticism.

None better or worse.

 

 

I thought the general public were sick of the punch and Judy shite.

We get what we deserve .

Shite governance from both .

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ked

[frankblack]

Daily Record: New Scottish independence poll shows just 29 per cent want referendum by end of 2023. 🤔
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-poll-2023-vote-26904429

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Daily Record: New Scottish independence poll shows just 29 per cent want referendum by end of 2023. 🤔
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-poll-2023-vote-26904429

Just naw.  NS will embrace polls like this as it will give her the excuse to kick the can down the road for a few years...until the  " time is right".  When exactly?  Brexit, Covid, Tory sleaze, Labour Sleaze, " historic mandates " in various elections....it would be never ending.  An Indy Ref needs to happen as such as possible imo 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Perhaps that's where the problems lie; the idea of there being 2 'factions'. Ultimately, we all want what's best for ourselves and those around us. We just might have different ideas of the best way of getting there. Putting some of the more hyperbolic or troll-y posts aside, there is room for genuine discussion on here. It is made harder, though, by outright rejection, bordering on hysteria hatred, of the 'other side' and their starting point(s) (from both sides, I might add).

It isn't an idea, it's a fact, they're the two entrenched groups that you're talking about.

But I'll leave you to it as this conversation is not of interest to me

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

I'm neither a unionist nor a independista, so not quite sure what you're wittering on about, Rox.  

 

 

You don't support Independence so my "wittering" is you support the union. 

[Unknown user]

32 minutes ago, Ked said:

The SNP have failed on health there should be no debate on that.

Yet you argued with me that they hadn't.

The SNP have consistently failed on housing .

Yet you argued with me on that.

And used similar arguments as I read on other sites from Tories.

Using anecdotal evidence such as the NHS did alright for me.

 

Jack D posted an article by a pro independence writer that spelt out these failings.

 

You can look at one thread on here and swap the names .

Both defend and attack with the same criticism.

None better or worse.

 

 

I thought the general public were sick of the punch and Judy shite.

We get what we deserve .

Shite governance from both .

 

 

I don't recall saying much about health, and when it came to housing, the one thing I said was that despite covid they were close to hitting their targets, which you'd said they were nowhere near.

 

I'll say again, I don't care for the SNP, but I really really don't care for the false bullshit that's thrown at them, and, in the eyes of the thrower, by extension, at independence.

[Jeffros Furios]

[Roxy Hearts]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Christ's sake...

 

QED.

Not having a go Jonesy. Just an observation 👍

[Ked]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't recall saying much about health, and when it came to housing, the one thing I said was that despite covid they were close to hitting their targets, which you'd said they were nowhere near.

 

I'll say again, I don't care for the SNP, but I really really don't care for the false bullshit that's thrown at them, and, in the eyes of the thrower, by extension, at independence.

 

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't recall saying much about health, and when it came to housing, the one thing I said was that despite covid they were close to hitting their targets, which you'd said they were nowhere near.

 

I'll say again, I don't care for the SNP, but I really really don't care for the false bullshit that's thrown at them, and, in the eyes of the thrower, by extension, at independence.

Point taken on last paragraph.

 

I just don't think they should be immune from being pulled because you are pro independence.

 

[Unknown user]

33 minutes ago, Ked said:

 

Point taken on last paragraph.

 

I just don't think they should be immune from being pulled because you are pro independence.

 

They're not

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Straight out the SNP debating skills handbook that one. 

Just replying to him like he posted to me. Shouldn't lower myself but not easy, especially in drink😊

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't recall saying much about health, and when it came to housing, the one thing I said was that despite covid they were close to hitting their targets, which you'd said they were nowhere near.

 

I'll say again, I don't care for the SNP, but I really really don't care for the false bullshit that's thrown at them, and, in the eyes of the thrower, by extension, at independence.

You gave him the facts about housing but, as usual, he just refuses to accept facts. 

[Japan Jambo]

3 hours ago, jonesy said:

Perhaps that's where the problems lie; the idea of there being 2 'factions'. Ultimately, we all want what's best for ourselves and those around us. We just might have different ideas of the best way of getting there. Putting some of the more hyperbolic or troll-y posts aside, there is room for genuine discussion on here. It is made harder, though, by outright rejection, bordering on hysteria hatred, of the 'other side' and their starting point(s) (from both sides, I might add).

 

👍 too much fighting, not enough listening or taking time to understand someone else's viewpoint.

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Ked said:

there should be no debate on that.

Yet you argued with me that they hadn't.

Yet you argued with me on that.

And used similar arguments 

 

Tell you what though, in a conversation where you're moaning about entrenchment and the lack of debate...

 

And as for this bit

"Using anecdotal evidence such as the NHS did alright for me"

 

Thing is, I haven't defended the SNP on health, which is what you're claiming.

I've told of my personal experience having gone through a quick process having a tumor detected and removed as well as other issues.

 

[Fort Vallance]

It's bad enough that Scotland's First Minister uses the platform of local council elections which have nothing to do with constitutional issues to push her independence agenda. However using that platform  to comment on Sinn Fein and the constitutional issues of another country sums up her interest in local government. Get your own house in order and sort out Education, Health Services and the poverty gap on your own doorstep and maybe we'll take your opinions seriously.

[Jeffros Furios]

4 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said:

It's bad enough that Scotland's First Minister uses the platform of local council elections which have nothing to do with constitutional issues to push her independence agenda. However using that platform  to comment on Sinn Fein and the constitutional issues of another country sums up her interest in local government. Get your own house in order and sort out Education, Health Services and the poverty gap on your own doorstep and maybe we'll take your opinions seriously.

Good post .

 

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said:

It's bad enough that Scotland's First Minister uses the platform of local council elections which have nothing to do with constitutional issues to push her independence agenda. However using that platform  to comment on Sinn Fein and the constitutional issues of another country sums up her interest in local government. Get your own house in order and sort out Education, Health Services and the poverty gap on your own doorstep and maybe we'll take your opinions seriously.

Agree

A Sinn Fein / SNP coalition of nationalism . A terrible prospect. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Agree

A Sinn Fein / SNP coalition of nationalism . A terrible prospect. 

It'll rattle a few cages.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

I 'support' the union in the same way not supporting Rangers would make me a Celtic supporter in some bluenoses' eyes.

 

There's more to it than pigeon-holing everyone into the artificial factions that the keenest on each side would have you believe. 

 

You prefer the union to independence, you're a unionist, it's what the word means. There aren't 10 other overlooked teams in this.

 

But this is turning into a right whiny thread, which is also shite chat and off topic so let's move back on topic eh

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

25 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It'll rattle a few cages.

Freedom fighters should unite.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

You prefer the union to independence, you're a unionist, it's what the word means. There aren't 10 other overlooked teams in this.

 

But this is turning into a right whiny thread, which is also shite chat and off topic so let's move back on topic eh

The title needs to be amended.

Add Sein Fein to the coalition.😄

It never fails that these threads are derailed.

[Jeffros Furios]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Not particularly. I'd take the union over whatever vision of Scotland Sturgeon and her fanatics are putting forward, however. Happy to vote 'yes' again, as I did in 2014, if I were confident her and the nodding dogs she surrounds herself with were unlikely to end up winning the first couple of elections post-indy.

 

It's only shite chat because a few posters are determined to have a go at anyone who doesn't think independence is the cure-all they have so evidently pinned a worryingly large chunk of their hopes and dreams on. I've heard it from a couple of mates offline, and they are rapidly on their way to becoming bitter, nasty men with a chip on their shoulder big enough to feed the Broons.

 

It's all so reminiscent of the Labour voters I grew up with during Thatcher's years. The saddest part of that era was the same guys who would have elected Hitler as long as he'd had a red rosette on then turned on Blair for not, basically, being Kinnock or Foot.

 

Independence is unlikely to have a very large impact on major chunks of most our lives, something that will lead to either resentment or delusion among many of the more vehement yes voters.

 

Anyway, apologies for the shite chat. 

Good post ..