Formula 1

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

Max was just wanting to get alongside to

 

 

[hmfc_liam06]

7 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

No idea why Mercedes thought that was a good idea to leave their driver (who was controlling the race) to be left trundling around on ageing tyres🤷🏼‍♂️

 

LH certainly wasn't "trundling around". MV was barely making a dent in the gap before the SC come out.

[luckyBatistuta]

Just now, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

LH certainly wasn't "trundling around". MV was barely making a dent in the gap before the SC come out.

I know he wasn’t Liam, what he was doing on those tyres was phenomenal, it really was, but his team hung him out to dry with that decision. He had the faster car and they should have covered Max and pitted too, even if that meant going behind him. I have no doubt Lewis would have got by Max again...although, maybe they were worried about that, as Max could have just taken him out and win the title.

[Bigsmak]

Off topic.. but Norris has had a great season.. 

[Tazio]

2 minutes ago, Bigsmak said:

Off topic.. but Norris has had a great season.. 

Yes. 
And also off topic the way the tracks are designed now makes it too easy to run off the circuit. Drivers can go hugely wide with no real consequence. 

[luckyBatistuta]

17 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I’ve a feeling Mercedes may also claim that Verstappen at one point went ahead of Hamilton (by inches) when they were jockeying for position just before the safety car came in. If the result was changed because of that it would be ridiculous 

2nd protest is this

[luckyBatistuta]

If they can prove he does go ahead behind the safety car, then I can see them stripping him of the title

Edited December 12, 2021 by luckyBatistuta

[Tazio]

Just now, luckyBatistuta said:

If he does go ahead behind the safety car, then I can see them striping him of the title

If that is the case it is indeed ridiculous. I noticed it at the time but it was when they were going slowly a long time before the restart. A tiny technicality. 

[luckyBatistuta]

Just now, Tazio said:

If that is the case it is indeed ridiculous. I noticed it at the time but it was when they were going slowly a long time before the restart. A tiny technicality. 

It is, but it’s the best chance they have. I think Lewis was obviously tactically slowing, but I think Max was trying to put pressure on him by showing him that he was right there, Max didn’t really need to do it. I hope to gif they do not overturn an F1 championship by something as miniscule as this .

[Taffin]

12 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Yes. 
And also off topic the way the tracks are designed now makes it too easy to run off the circuit. Drivers can go hugely wide with no real consequence. 

 

Yeh, I get it from a safety, avoiding safety cars and red flags perspective but there needs to be more of a consequence for doing it.

[Taffin]

8 minutes ago, Tazio said:

If that is the case it is indeed ridiculous. I noticed it at the time but it was when they were going slowly a long time before the restart. A tiny technicality. 

 

Surely they can just say he gave the advantage back before they crossed the safety car line. It's not like he edged ahead then put the hammer down. He edged ahead then backs back off. I wonder what penalty (if any) they'd give in other circumstances for that? I reckon a warning. 

 

 

Or just say Lewis brake tested him so he averted a collision 😂

Edited December 12, 2021 by Taffin

[Malinga the Swinga]

Toto and Mercedes are a twosome that are ideal partnership. All pleasant when things go their way, racing incidents they call them when it benefits Hamilton. 

As soon as a racing incident goes against them, it's poor Toto, the crying starts.

Pathetic behaviour but entirety within character.

They can overturn in courts but Lewis lost it on the track and that won't change.

 

[Taffin]

Thoroughly enjoying this thread by the way and the debate and discussion on a sport I love.

 

Thanks everyone 👍

[luckyBatistuta]

5 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Surely they can just say he gave the advantage back before they crossed the safety car line. It's not like he edged ahead then put the hammer down. He edged ahead then backs back off. I wonder what penalty (if any) they'd give in other circumstances for that? I reckon a warning. 

 

 

Or just say Lewis brake tested him so he averted a collision 😂

Priceless🤣

[Jambo-Jimbo]

43 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Sorry, I have should have been more specific. They chickened out of the decision under the VSC to put Lewis on new tyres, following the example of Red Bull and Max. From that point on, Lewis was at the mercy of a safety car being called out. It was a huge gamble, made for the wrong reason.

 

Exactly, if Mercedes had pitted Hamilton during the VSC and had lost track position to Verstappen, then when the SC came out it would have been Hamilton who had the free pit stop whilst Red Bull would have to keep Verstappen out, a complete opposite to what happened.

 

[luckyBatistuta]

A barrister in now😱🤣

[hmfc_liam06]

9 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Toto and Mercedes are a twosome that are ideal partnership. All pleasant when things go their way, racing incidents they call them when it benefits Hamilton. 

As soon as a racing incident goes against them, it's poor Toto, the crying starts.

Pathetic behaviour but entirety within character.

They can overturn in courts but Lewis lost it on the track and that won't change.

 

 

And Horner/Red Bull don't?

 

I get folk don't like Merc/Hamilton/Toto but some of this stuff is proper embarrassing. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

And Horner/Red Bull don't?

 

I get folk don't like Merc/Hamilton/Toto but some of this stuff is proper embarrassing. 

Sorry, forgot to add how funny it is to see the Lewis fanboys bursting into tears. But the rules, but Red Bull did this or director did that.

Get over it.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

40 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

As I said, they chickened out, imo. To them, the chance that they might lose track position scared them into hanging on and hoping for the best. In the end, Red Bull made the gutsier decision and deserved the win.

 

Exactly how I see it as well, Red Bull had nothing to lose and made the braver decision, Mercedes on the other hand by not bringing Hamilton in during the VSC, were from that point onwards hanging on praying that nothing else would go wrong, tyre wise or SC or whatever.

 

And if it wasn't for the SC then Hamilton would have won the championship at a canter, but Mercedes stuck with what they had whilst Red Bull twisted and drew an ace.

[luckyBatistuta]

1 minute ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

And Horner/Red Bull don't?

 

I get folk don't like Merc/Hamilton/Toto but some of this stuff is proper embarrassing. 

Horner and Red Bull have their moments too. Most folks seem to be in favour of Max on this so far. What is your view on what should happen Liam as you are obviously in the Lewis camp. 
 

 

The incident on whether Lewis did or didn’t give anything back on the Max overtake?

The tyre decisions by Mercedes?

The cars alongside each other behind the safety car?

The decision to only allow 5 cars to pass the safety car?

 

Just be interesting to hear more from Lewis supporters on this thread

 

 

[Tazio]

Toto is just following the example of German based Austrians not always being the most likeable types. 

[I P Knightley]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

mercedes i feel have made the wrong choice going for russell over norris. maybe they were worries about norris being able to compete more with hamilton

Either of them would be better than Bottas but I think they've gone for the right guy. Norris has come on leaps and bounds this season and will benefit from another season with McLaren where he's effectively the #1. Russell has shown massive potential and, I'm sure, will be a stronger wingman to Hamilton and content to have a season or two before he comes into the limelight.

51 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Think you're spot on with that summation. They spun the wheel and they lost. Lewis knew it and it came across in his radio messages.

There were two points when Merc might have played it differently. They might have given Hamilton 4-8 more laps on the medium after Verstappen pitted in the early stages to build more of a lead and they might have brought him in under the VSC to switch tyres. Ultimately, neither of them would have benefitted him for the last lap shoot out. The only thing that would have helped is if Bottas was within 15 seconds or so of Verstappen when Latifi shunted it. That would have made RB thing twice about bringing Verstappen in to put on fresh softs as the chances would've been that he'd come out behind VB. But VB was miles behind.

 

22 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

If they can prove he does go ahead behind the safety car, then I can see them stripping him of the title

It could be messy but we've been saying that there may have been a smart play by Hamilton to sneak Verstappen ahead before the restart. Maybe a sneaky wee dab on the brakes to fall back behind. There was no need to Verstappen to be running alongside him so it would serve him right but I suspect the telemetry would tell the stewards what went on.

[Taffin]

7 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

And Horner/Red Bull don't?

 

I get folk don't like Merc/Hamilton/Toto but some of this stuff is proper embarrassing. 

 

Of course they do, but people support teams. I'm guessing things Hibs do that you think are outrageous you'd have a very different viewpoint on if Hearts did it.

 

Mercedes have, imo, had the rub of the green during their existence. I fully appreciate their fans would disagree though.

[luckyBatistuta]

One thing we can surely all agree on, that was an enjoyable season of F1 motor racing🥰

[I P Knightley]

3 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

Horner and Red Bull have their moments too. Most folks seem to be in favour of Max on this so far. What is your view on what should happen Liam as you are obviously in the Lewis camp. 
 

 

The incident on whether Lewis did or didn’t give anything back on the Max overtake?

The tyre decisions by Mercedes?

The cars alongside each other behind the safety car?

The decision to only allow 5 cars to pass the safety car?

 

Just be interesting to hear more from Lewis supporters on this thread

 

 

This was a bizarre one.

 

I get what Massi said - that he was doing it to create a motor race - but when you know that the outcome is, inevitably, to hand the race to Max, it stinks a little. Hamilton did nothing wrong all race - apart, maybe, in the first & second lap where he set fastest laps when he was supposed to be allowing Verstappen to close up - and he didn't deserve to lose the race. Even if he'd given a place back in the first lap, he'd have got past Verstappen shortly after notwithstanding any "exuberant" defence.

 

I thought (perhaps wrongly) that when the cars unlapped themselves - and it should have been none or all - they were given a lap or so still behind the Safety Car to make their way round to the back of the pack before racing recommenced. Am I making this up?

 

 

2 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Toto is just following the example of German based Austrians not always being the most likeable types. 

You're terrible, Muriel!

[jambopilms]

I think they have a point about the regs but it's all too late, they can't take the title off verstapen now. It's like Celtic getting their goal removed after the game has finished.

[redjambo]

8 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

Horner and Red Bull have their moments too. Most folks seem to be in favour of Max on this so far. What is your view on what should happen Liam as you are obviously in the Lewis camp. 
 

 

The incident on whether Lewis did or didn’t give anything back on the Max overtake?

The tyre decisions by Mercedes?

The cars alongside each other behind the safety car?

The decision to only allow 5 cars to pass the safety car?

 

Just be interesting to hear more from Lewis supporters on this thread

 

 

 

I wanted Lewis to win, but I think Mercedes should do an Al Gore on this one and not take it any further. Nothing stood out as *blatantly* unfair. It's all just about the hanging chads now. I also think however that Masi should be removed from his position for that decision on the overtaking related to the final safety car - he was acting as if he were bigger than the sport, controlling it as a puppeteer rather than regulating it.

[VALDOS']

Mercedes conceding gracefully 😆

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

One thing we can surely all agree on, that was an enjoyable season of F1 motor racing🥰

 

Indeed, for once we've had a real title race.

[Tazio]

So apparently the teams went into a meeting with the authorities and came out a few minutes later saying they would restart the meeting again in a few minutes. Mercedes actually have a barrister at the track that they brought with them! 

[NANOJAMBO]

12 minutes ago, Tazio said:

So apparently the teams went into a meeting with the authorities and came out a few minutes later saying they would restart the meeting again in a few minutes. Mercedes actually have a barrister at the track that they brought with them! 

Just been told Mercedes took three lawyers to the race today, almost like they were expecting to get shafted. 

[Tazio]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

Just been told Mercedes took three lawyers to the race today, almost like they were expecting to get shafted. 

Or alternatively they were going to look for any excuse. 

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, Tazio said:

So apparently the teams went into a meeting with the authorities and came out a few minutes later saying they would restart the meeting again in a few minutes. Mercedes actually have a barrister at the track that they brought with them! 

Taking it well then. 

 

I hope the stewards tell them to bolt 

[Taffin]

Shame it's ending this way. Feel for Max, this is no way to celebrate your first ever world championship.

 

Equally, in the interest of balance, it would be an unbefitting way for someone to get a record 8 titles and it would be a shame for Lewis.

 

Lawyers travelling to races with teams is quite depressing really.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Taffin

[Homme]

Class from Verstappen. What a conclusion to the season.

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, I P Knightley said:

This was a bizarre one.

 

I get what Massi said - that he was doing it to create a motor race - but when you know that the outcome is, inevitably, to hand the race to Max, it stinks a little. Hamilton did nothing wrong all race - apart, maybe, in the first & second lap where he set fastest laps when he was supposed to be allowing Verstappen to close up - and he didn't deserve to lose the race. Even if he'd given a place back in the first lap, he'd have got past Verstappen shortly after notwithstanding any "exuberant" defence.

 

I thought (perhaps wrongly) that when the cars unlapped themselves - and it should have been none or all - they were given a lap or so still behind the Safety Car to make their way round to the back of the pack before racing recommenced. Am I making this up?

Two laps behind the safety car constituted a race a Spa this season, in doing so justifying the award of half points.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Footballfirst

[VALDOS']

The season that's probably saved F1 could actually end up killing it if they over turn this.

Can you imagine Hamilton celebrating a victory when the hard facts are he didn't win the race.

Sport is about moments and when it's gone it's gone.

Max and Red Bull deserve the win, move on and let them enjoy it. 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

Shame it's ending this way. Feel for Max, this is no way to celebrate your first ever world championship.

 

Equally, in the interest of balance, it would be an unbefitting way for someone to get a record 8 titles and it would be a shame for Lewis.

 

Lawyers travelling with teams to races with teams is quite depressing really.

 

It is indeed. The regulations, and application thereof, need an overhaul, not to necessarily change a lot of them, but to go through them and try to ensure that each one is watertight and unambiguously enforceable with as little wriggle room as possible. Lawyers love wriggle room. And then of course the refreshed regulations need to be consistently applied. It's a bit of a watershed moment for F1 as I don't think that it can continue as it is without becoming farcical.

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Two laps behind the safety car constituted a race a Spa this season, in doing so justifying the award of half points.

 

 

Illustrating that F1 can do comedy too.

[Taffin]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

It is indeed. The regulations, and application thereof, need an overhaul, not to necessarily change a lot of them, but to go through them and try to ensure that each one is watertight and unambiguously enforceable with as little wriggle room as possible. Lawyers love wriggle room. And then of course the refreshed regulations need to be consistently applied. It's a bit of a watershed moment for F1 as I don't think that it can continue as it is without becoming farcical.

 

That's motorsport though, loopholes, wiggle room and interpretation of the rules is all part of it and always have been and trying to find an advantage before anyone else exploits it. The end result of this could be VAR-like armpit offsides, the correct decisions yes...but utterly ripping the soul out of what sport should be (just imo). 

 

I do agree though, Masi has risked turning it into a circus, n a number of occasions this season.

 

Minimum fuel load and stop the lap count behind the safety car maybe. No race should finish behind a safety car imo. (Even though I was cheering it earlier in the year 😂)

Edited December 12, 2021 by Taffin

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

That's motorsport though, loopholes, wiggle room and interpretation of the rules is all part of it and always have been and trying to find an advantage before anyone else exploits it. The end result of this could be VAR-like armpit offsides, the correct decisions yes...but utterly ripping the soul out of what sport should be (just imo). 

 

I do agree though, Masi has risked turning it into a circus, n a number of occasions this season.

 

Minimum fuel load and stop the lap count behind the safety car maybe. No race should finish behind a safety car imo. (Even though I was cheering it earlier in the year 😂)

 

No, it's a fair point. Safety cars for example can absolutely annihilate any advantage a driver has built up over another over the course of a race, but they introduce an element of randomness into the sport which helps races not to be all boring and processional. I enjoy that randomness. It worked well today. But what I don't like is inconsistency (I have a huge "fairness" gene) and we've seen a lot of it lately.

 

I like the idea about stopping the lap count behind the safety car.

[milky_26]

reports that a decision is due around 6.30

[milky_26]

One Mercedes protest rejected - the one about overtaking before the restart.

"Although (VER) did, for a very short period of time, move slightly in front of (HAM), when both were accelerating and braking, moved back behind and not in front when safety car period ended"

[Mikey1874]

Just accept it Mercedes.

 

Could easily have gone the other way too. 

 

Verstappen got some good fortune today and elsewhere but deserves it. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Mikey1874

[Tazio]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

Just accept it Mercedes.

 

Could easily have gone the other way too. 

Whichever way the decision goes I’m sure there will be counter protests. 

[Mikey1874]

Just now, Tazio said:

Whichever way the decision goes I’m sure there will be counter protests. 

 

It doesn't help anyone to protest. I can't see how a Hamilton win now would be good for anyone.

 

Hamilton did great and he doesn't need this. He can hold his head up high and now has 7 Championship and 3 of the closest ever near misses. 

[NANOJAMBO]

38 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Or alternatively they were going to look for any excuse. 

Not bothered either way, I'm not really interested in it. 

[milky_26]

this tweet from FIA suggests mercedes protest has been unsuccessful

[redjambo]

Here's how it will probably pan out. The Mercedes appeal is rejected. Mercedes go to the CAS for a fast-track decision. Two days into the hearing, Red Bull say that they will leave the sport if the court finds against it. Mercedes reply by saying that they will do exactly the same. One by one the teams line up behind either Mercedes and Red Bull. The FIA panic and declare both Max and Lewis to be joint champions. All teams vehemently disagree and all the drivers go on strike for the first half of the 2022 season, except for Mazepin who builds up enough of a points total to almost guarantee becoming champion. This creates so much nationalistic pride in Russia that they invade eastern Ukraine. NATO counter by invading Russia and nuclear war breaks out quickly, annihilating most of Earth, thereby robbing Mazepin of glory. But I might be wrong.

[SectionDJambo]

Hamilton and his father came over as worthy champions by congratulating Verstappen and his father, after what must have been a crushing defeat, albeit they've enjoyed the glory plenty times in the past. 

Merceces Benz have displayed that they are only nice guys when they win. To be prepared with legal representation, which is clearly intended to intimidate the race stewards in any dispute, is the behaviour of the bully boy organisation that they have become in F1. 

Horner no doubt winds them up. He is the pantomime villain to them.

If this victory for Verstappen is taken away from him, it could do untold damage to the reputation and popularity of the sport. Many people will just turn off if the dominant team is going to use it's financial muscle to get defeats turned into victories. They've still won the Constructor's championship but it not enough for them. Total domination or the toys are out of the pram.