H2 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, milky_26 said: mercedes could have pitted under the safety car but decided not to Not relevant to the debate about the decision that Massi made allowing only 5 cars to unlap, these being the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, H2 said: Not relevant to the debate about the decision that Massi made allowing only 5 cars to unlap, these being the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton. how is it not relevant when you are throwing your toys out of the pram about them being on different tyres. i didn't see you complain about them starting on different tyres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, milky_26 said: george russell doing what he can to endear himself to his new team He's another wee prick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 43 minutes ago, milky_26 said: they have done that all season Yup. Congrats to Max, but in general terms, no matter who had won it, there have been too many controversies this year. Although there are always gray areas, the rules should be far tighter than they are so that there is less leeway in their interpretation, while the grey areas should be well defined so that we know when grey areas are possible. I hope that this makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merrymac Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, H2 said: Not relevant to the debate about the decision that Massi made allowing only 5 cars to unlap, these being the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton. Yep he basically decided the race with that decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, Sooperstar said: He's another wee prick. mercedes i feel have made the wrong choice going for russell over norris. maybe they were worries about norris being able to compete more with hamilton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, milky_26 said: mercedes i feel have made the wrong choice going for russell over norris. maybe they were worries about norris being able to compete more with hamilton Aye Russell seems to be the golden boy but Norris the better driver for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 I'm fairly certain Max wasn't on a new set of softs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said: Twice, once under the virtual safety car and the other under the full saftey car, but they didn't because Mercedes knew that they'd have lost track position to Verstappen. They chickened out in my opinion. Track position is important but it isn't everything. Fear of failure can often lead to that failure becoming a reality. Edited December 12, 2021 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, milky_26 said: mercedes i feel have made the wrong choice going for russell over norris. maybe they were worries about norris being able to compete more with hamilton Russell and Norris are polar opposites. Russell is a better fit at Mercedes, he’s a scientific driver and Norris is a gut feeling driver. They’ll get more input in car development from Russell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 toto wolf refusing to meet horner and shake hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, Taffin said: I'm fairly certain Max wasn't on a new set of softs? I thought so too. He was on newer hards, wasn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, milky_26 said: how is it not relevant when you are throwing your toys out of the pram about them being on different tyres. i didn't see you complain about them starting on different tyres The debate is not fundamentally about the tyres, it's fundamentally about the decision that Massi made allowing only 5 cars to unlap themselves, leaving three still a lap behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, H2 said: The debate is not fundamentally about the tyres, it's fundamentally about the decision that Massi made allowing only 5 cars to unlap themselves, leaving three still a lap behind. then why were you moaning about different tyres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Masi is one of the most patronising men alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Mercedes starting to look quite undignified here. They’ll be threatening to pull out of F1 again probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, H2 said: The debate is not fundamentally about the tyres, it's fundamentally about the decision that Massi made allowing only 5 cars to unlap themselves, leaving three still a lap behind. It was a rather unorthodox decision, the sort of decision that shouldn't be allowed, imo. Not because it let Max win, but because the rules should be set in stone, not made up on the fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, Sooperstar said: Masi is one of the most patronising men alive. tbf he does need to treat all team principals like children due to all of their behaviour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, redjambo said: They chickened out in my opinion. Track position is important but it isn't everything. Fear of failure cam often lead to that failure becoming a reality. Mercedes obviously thought it was going to end under the safety and if it had, they would have thrown away the title. As much as I’m happy at Max winning the title, not sure I agree with only letting five lapped cars past the safety car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, Tazio said: Mercedes starting to look quite undignified here. They’ll be threatening to pull out of F1 again probably. Undoubtedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, milky_26 said: toto wolf refusing to meet horner and shake hands Well there’s a shock, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, redjambo said: I thought so too. He was on newer hards, wasn't he? He pitted onto scrubbed softs under the safety car I think. It's a minor semantic point but seems to be the crux on the debate over the last page...and of course they all start with the same tyres available to them and it's then up to the teams (largely) on how they deploy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, milky_26 said: then why were you moaning about different tyres? I'm not moaning about the tyres, I just made the point that because of the unjust decision by Massi, the hard tyre competitor had no chance against the soft tyre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Disgrace of a decision. I don't buy the "let them race" mantra being trotted out by the FIA. You either let all or none through, not the 5 inbetween both drivers. I can see Mercedes taking this further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: It was a rather unorthodox decision, the sort of decision that shouldn't be allowed, imo. Not because it let Max win, but because the rules should be set in stone, not made up on the fly. I agree, it was something never allowed before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 mercedes lodge two protests, no confirmation yet but ted kravitz has heard the protests are in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, luckyBatistuta said: Mercedes obviously thought it was going to end under the safety and if it had, they would have thrown away the title. As much as I’m happy at Max winning the title, not sure I agree with only letting five lapped cars past the safety car. Sorry, I have should have been more specific. They chickened out of the decision under the VSC to put Lewis on new tyres, following the example of Red Bull and Max. From that point on, Lewis was at the mercy of a safety car being called out. It was a huge gamble, made for the wrong reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Protests launched, can’t race again as Toto’s dummy and toys all over the track Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Taffin said: He pitted onto scrubbed softs under the safety car I think. It's a minor semantic point but seems to be the crux on the debate over the last page...and of course they all start with the same tyres available to them and it's then up to the teams (largely) on how they deploy them. In all the excitement, I didn't see that. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, milky_26 said: tbf he does need to treat all team principals like children due to all of their behaviour Yeh, agree with that. However he's not handle on it at times this season imo. Whilst I love the addition of the FIA radio now being audible for us...I'm not sure it's a great thing and maybe those discussions at that level would be better kept between the FIA and the teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, Taffin said: Yeh, agree with that. However he's not handle on it at times this season imo. Whilst I love the addition of the FIA radio now being audible for us...I'm not sure it's a great thing and maybe those discussions at that level would be better kept between the FIA and the teams. i agree there does seem to be points where he (masi) has felt he is the star of the show. just like some football refs who want to be the centre of attention Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, redjambo said: Sorry, I have should have been more specific. They chickened out of the decision under the VSC to put Lewis on new tyres, following the example of Red Bull and Max. From that point on, Lewis was at the mercy of a safety car being called out. It was a huge gamble, made for the wrong reason. red, you never ever need to apologise to me pal. Understand what you are saying now and agree, as he was the faster than Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, redjambo said: Sorry, I have should have been more specific. They chickened out of the decision under the VSC to put Lewis on new tyres, following the example of Red Bull and Max. From that point on, Lewis was at the mercy of a safety car being called out. It was a huge gamble, made for the wrong reason. Think you're spot on with that summation. They spun the wheel and they lost. Lewis knew it and it came across in his radio messages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Taffin said: Yeh, agree with that. However he's not handle on it at times this season imo. Whilst I love the addition of the FIA radio now being audible for us...I'm not sure it's a great thing and maybe those discussions at that level would be better kept between the FIA and the teams. I disagree. I think it's quite fun hearing those conversations, it gets you even more involved in the action. I don't think Masi's the guy for the job though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, redjambo said: I thought so too. He was on newer hards, wasn't he? Verstappen finished on softs. Had the red ring round them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, redjambo said: In all the excitement, I didn't see that. Cheers. Easily done, I may also be wrong I'm still struggling to process it all a bit!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, redjambo said: Sorry, I have should have been more specific. They chickened out of the decision under the VSC to put Lewis on new tyres, following the example of Red Bull and Max. From that point on, Lewis was at the mercy of a safety car being called out. It was a huge gamble, made for the wrong reason. The odds on the safety car being required with under 10 laps to go must have been astronomical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, luckyBatistuta said: red, you never ever need to apologise to me pal. Understand what you are saying now and agree, as he was the faster than Max Indeed. he could well have lost track position due to pitting, but he would have had a very good chance of getting it back before the end. Sorry again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, redjambo said: Indeed. he could well have lost track position due to pitting, but he would have had a very good chance of getting it back before the end. Sorry again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, redjambo said: I disagree. I think it's quite fun hearing those conversations, it gets you even more involved in the action. I don't think Masi's the guy for the job though. I agree, I've absolutely loved it but I feel it's made it a bit too much Horner vs Toto at times and it's really polarised it. They're the team principals so they should be lobbying for their teams but it can leave an unsavoury taste hearing it all played out on tv. I want it to stay for my enjoyment but for the wellbeing of the sport I'm not so sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: The odds on the safety car being required with under 10 laps to go must have been astronomical. The VSC, and Mercedes' decision to keep Hamilton out on the same tyres, came on lap 36 out of 58. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, hmfc_liam06 said: The odds on the safety car being required with under 10 laps to go must have been astronomical. With fatigue, tyre deg and drivers fighting for the last time this season, I'm not so sure. I certainly wasn't surprised someone dropped it when they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, redjambo said: The VSC, and Mercedes' decision to keep Hamilton out on the same tyres, came on lap 36 out of 58. No idea why Mercedes thought that was a good idea to leave their driver (who was controlling the race) to be left trundling around on ageing tyres🤷🏼♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Taffin said: I agree, I've absolutely loved it but I feel it's made it a bit too much Horner vs Toto at times and it's really polarised it. They're the team principals so they should be lobbying for their teams but it can leave an unsavoury taste hearing it all played out on tv. I want it to stay for my enjoyment but for the wellbeing of the sport I'm not so sure. That's a fair point. It has become rather polarised and bitter. I'm a wee bit torn though - I don't particularly enjoy the bitterness between the teams, but it makes the whole thing far juicier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) I’ve a feeling Mercedes may also claim that Verstappen at one point went ahead of Hamilton (by inches) when they were jockeying for position just before the safety car came in. If the result was changed because of that it would be ridiculous Edited December 12, 2021 by Tazio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooperstar Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Mercedes will take this to CAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Even if Mercedes can find a written rule to back their protest, there is no chance i see them stripping Nax of the title and giving it to Lewis. They are going to just have to suck it up and accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, luckyBatistuta said: No idea why Mercedes thought that was a good idea to leave their driver (who was controlling the race) to be left trundling around on ageing tyres🤷🏼♂️ As I said, they chickened out, imo. To them, the chance that they might lose track position scared them into hanging on and hoping for the best. In the end, Red Bull made the gutsier decision and deserved the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Just now, Tazio said: I’ve a feeling Mercedes may also claim that Verstappen at one point went ahead of Hamilton (by inches) when they were jockeying for position just before the safety car came in. If the result was changed because of that it would be ridiculous Max was just wanting to get alongside to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyBatistuta Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, redjambo said: As I said, they chickened out, imo. To them, the chance that they might lose track position scared them into hanging on and hoping for the best. In the end, Red Bull made the gutsier decision and deserved the win. Pretty much nails it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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