**** Official Premiership Hickey Thread ( merged ) ****

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Well it would appear it does happen as it looks like St Mirren have an agreement with Hibs for McGinn but I’d be amazed if it was a common occurrence, although may become common.  Not sure why it wasn’t common in the past though.  Not that long ago that the more straight forward sell on clause involving only two clubs was unheard of (think of all the players we’ve sold for 7 figure sums since the 1990’s but I can’t recall any of them involving a sell on clause of any sort - was Paterson maybe the first?).

 

How do we know it wasn't common in the past? I'd be surprised if this was particularly new.

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

 

See also Ryan Christie to Bournemouth netting ICT some money. 

 

 

Yes, as I posted earlier. If the player doesn't move for a fee, or signs a new contract it would probably end the 'sell-on' clause(s).

I doubt a new contract would negate it, the deal's between the clubs for transferring a player's registration and will surely stand until that player moves.

[Fozzyonthefence]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

How do we know it wasn't common in the past? I'd be surprised if this was particularly new.

Because we never hear about it, until now.  I can’t think of a Hearts player other than Calum Paterson where we’ve received a sell on fee (and that was the more traditional way rather than a double transfer after leaving us).  
 

We’ve sold several players for big transfer fees (like Gordon, Niemi, McLaren, Cameron, McCann, Naysmith, Berra, Hartley, Sow, even back to Robbo) but I can’t remember anything at the time about a potential sell on windfall - I just don’t think that was the way transfer deals were done back then. 

 

As Sutol says though, there are factors that could mean a sell on isn’t invoked. 
 

And to confuse matters of course, we were discussing transfers where there are 4 clubs involved, not 3, i.e. Hickey from Celtic to Hearts to Bologna to whoever, so my analogy involving Club A, B and C didn’t help!

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Because we never hear about it, until now.  I can’t think of a Hearts player other than Calum Paterson where we’ve received a sell on fee (and that was the more traditional way rather than a double transfer after leaving us).  
 

We’ve sold several players for big transfer fees (like Gordon, Niemi, McLaren, Cameron, McCann, Naysmith, Berra, Hartley, Sow, even back to Robbo) but I can’t remember anything at the time about a potential sell on windfall - I just don’t think that was the way transfer deals were done back then. 

 

As Sutol says though, there are factors that could mean a sell on isn’t invoked. 
 

And to confuse matters of course, we were discussing transfers where there are 4 clubs involved, not 3, i.e. Hickey from Celtic to Hearts to Bologna to whoever, so my analogy involving Club A, B and C didn’t help!

 

I'm sure I have heard of it before but I couldn't say when.

How many players have we sold with a sell on clause, who were then sold again with another sell on clause? And as I said above, if both of those clauses are 10% and the second fees a million, it's only 10k.

Our transfer income is never broken down in the accounts so I just don't think it's ever been significant enough to bring up if the circumstances to trigger it did happen with us. 

 

We're hearing about it now because Scottish players are starting to go for decent money. Imo.

[Fozzyonthefence]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm sure I have heard of it before but I couldn't say when.

How many players have we sold with a sell on clause, who were then sold again with another sell on clause? And as I said above, if both of those clauses are 10% and the second fees a million, it's only 10k.

Our transfer income is never broken down in the accounts so I just don't think it's ever been significant enough to bring up if the circumstances to trigger it did happen with us. 

 

We're hearing about it now because Scottish players are starting to go for decent money. Imo.

Scottish players and even Hearts players were going for decent money even 20-30 years ago, in fact we were generally getting bigger transfer fees in the 1990’s and 2000’s than what we have recently.  However,  looking at the Hearts players I listed I’m not sure any of them went to another club for a big transfer fee other than Gary Naysmith who went from Everton to Sheffield Utd for £1m (possibly Niemi from Southampton to Fulham?) so they’re probably bad examples. 

 

What we need is some input from a players’ agent since they are party to the negotiations!

Edited December 29, 2021 by Fozzyonthefence

[Ribble]

11 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

How do we know it wasn't common in the past? I'd be surprised if this was particularly new.

One of the older examples I can find is Hayes FC inserting a 10% all on clause when they sold Les Ferdinand to QPR in 1987, they then pocketed 600k in 1995 when he moved to Newcastle.

 

So certainly not a new thing but I suspect sell on clauses becoming more prevalent in the bowman era as clubs were forced to sell players whose contracts were running down?

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 minutes ago, Ribble said:

One of the older examples I can find is Hayes FC inserting a 10% all on clause when they sold Les Ferdinand to QPR in 1987, they then pocketed 600k in 1995 when he moved to Newcastle.

 

So certainly not a new thing but I suspect sell on clauses becoming more prevalent in the bowman era as clubs were forced to sell players whose contracts were running down?

Yes but in Hickey’s case we’re talking about a sell on after the initial sell on, i.e. transfers between 4 clubs, rather than 3. 

[davie1980]

19 minutes ago, Ribble said:

So certainly not a new thing but I suspect sell on clauses becoming more prevalent in the bowman era as clubs were forced to sell players whose contracts were running down?

 

[Ribble]

34 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Yes but in Hickey’s case we’re talking about a sell on after the initial sell on, i.e. transfers between 4 clubs, rather than 3. 

 

Can't find any examples of that other than the McGinn one, that particular clause must have been 30% of all profits made on mcginn. As someone said above it may well be the new way of wording sell on clauses (% of future income rather than % of transfer fee) whereby you could end up with 6,7,8 or more clubs benefitting from transfers in the future. Either way I have a felling that Celtic won't be getting a bolt from any transfer of Hickey from Bologna.

[vegas-voss]

On 28/12/2021 at 15:41, Tommy Brown said:

If Man City want to sign him (big IF) then he is Man City level.

Not sure who plays LB fir MC  they lost Mendy to HMP.

 

I remember plenty saying the same of Marez, he is still there 4 or 5 years on.

If Pep wants him, he would believe in himself enough to make it.

Cancelo plays LB for them

[Fozzyonthefence]

On 28/12/2021 at 19:54, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Isn't he exactly a good point in case though. They're only signing potential and it's yet to be determined if he's Man City class, and like Woodburn could prove not to be. 

 

Anyway, I wish him all the best so hope he proves good enough for any team. 

Yep, City also signed the Japanese boy whose name escapes and loaned him to us.  He’s nowhere near City class, doubtful if even Hearts class.   Hickey is only 19 so not that ridiculous to think City might sign him even if not immediately as first choice.

[TheBigO]

21 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Yep, City also signed the Japanese boy whose name escapes and loaned him to us.  He’s nowhere near City class, doubtful if even Hearts class.   Hickey is only 19 so not that ridiculous to think City might sign him even if not immediately as first choice.

Auld fogie like me maybe needs to get heid round fact that theres a valid career in signing for City or the likes and spending years on loan.

 

40k a week play for mid table epl or top end French team or whatever until youre 23/24 then maybe do enough to get your game at your parent or another big club.

 

Its a path these days. Does it matter who "owns" you these days!?!?

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Yes but in Hickey’s case we’re talking about a sell on after the initial sell on, i.e. transfers between 4 clubs, rather than 3. 

 

Players move clubs much more often now, and we have much more intensive coverage of everything. Added to which, it would require a chain of transfers, the last of which was significant enough to make it worth mentioning. All of this is why I think we're only really hearing about it now - it just wasn't that big a deal.

 

Like I say though, I don't insist on it, this is all just logical extension from my limited experience with contracts. If I was the boss I'd be demanding to know why all our sell on clauses aren't worded that way!

Edited December 30, 2021 by Smithee

[Mr Brightside]

21 hours ago, SUTOL said:

 

 

See also Ryan Christie to Bournemouth netting ICT some money. 

 

 

Yes, as I posted earlier. If the player doesn't move for a fee, or signs a new contract it would probably end the 'sell-on' clause(s).

Signing a new contract wouldn’t negate a sell on clause. The sell on clause is a deal between two clubs and the players contract is a separate agreement.

[SUTOL]

1 hour ago, Mr Brightside said:

Signing a new contract wouldn’t negate a sell on clause. The sell on clause is a deal between two clubs and the players contract is a separate agreement.

 

Maybe. How would we know what is written in every contract. 

 

But, my point is if the contract ends, and the player doesn't leave but re-signs a new deal as a free agent I don't see how a previous clause would necessarily still be active. 

[Bazzas right boot]

Don't understand why there's a debate 

 

If celtic have a further % sell on then it won't affect Hearts. 

For simples sake, say celtic and Hearts have 10% on his next fee. 

 

Hickey goes for £10m

Both clubs get £1m

 

If only Hearts have that clause, we still get £1m

 

🤷‍♂️

 

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

Maybe. How would we know what is written in every contract. 

 

But, my point is if the contract ends, and the player doesn't leave but re-signs a new deal as a free agent I don't see how a previous clause would necessarily still be active. 

 

Because the clause is in the transfer agreement, not the player contract?

Edited December 30, 2021 by Smithee

[SUTOL]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Because the clause is in the transfer agreement, not the player contract?

 

What transfer agreement, if he re-signed as a free agent? 

 

 

 

[XB52]

23 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

Don't understand why there's a debate 

 

If celtic have a further % sell on then it won't affect Hearts. 

For simples sake, say celtic and Hearts have 10% on his next fee. 

 

Hickey goes for £10m

Both clubs get £1m

 

If only Hearts have that clause, we still get £1m

 

🤷‍♂️

 

Nope. If, and nobody really seems to know, celtic have a follow on clause, they get a percentage of whatever Hearts get. 

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, XB52 said:

Nope. If, and nobody really seems to know, celtic have a follow on clause, they get a percentage of whatever Hearts get. 

 

 

Even then at 10%, we get £900k, they get £100k on my example. 

 

We are still quids in either way. 

 

If it's 20% they get  £100k, etc. 

 

Not a big deal. 

 

We get money either way. 

 

[Unknown user]

25 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

What transfer agreement, if he re-signed as a free agent? 

 

Transfer agreements aren't about transferring players, they're about transferring players' registration and will involve a contract between the 2 clubs, quite separate from the player's contract of employment. 

 

A player signing a new contract wouldn't cancel out a clause in a transfer agreement that says "we want 10% of anything you get in relation to his registration being transferred."

[Cruyff]

We got him for **** all. We've made a million odd from his sale and may make more. Overall a good piece of business.

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

We got him for **** all. We've made a million odd from his sale and may make more. Overall a good piece of business.

We’ve done a lot worse. 

[Cruyff]

Just now, davemclaren said:

We’ve done a lot worse. 

Certainly. It'll be great if we receive money as part of any sell on fee bit if it doesn't happen it's not the end of the world. 

[poggs]

There s fair bit of stuff on here about selling clauses etc.  Its far more likely that were would be relying on the solidarity payment AKA training expenses for hickey.  This sets it out as so much per year based on the age of the player up to 23.  The whole thing is ridiculously complicated but, if you're bored.  take a look at the link at the bottom.  Likely Be either 90k Euro per year he was with us or our share of 5% of the fee based on the table.  So in essence we would be due about 1% of the fee or £100k ish depending on a rake of silly factors.    Thats probably where the "6 figure sell on" thingy comes from. 

 

With regard to the method of distribution, Annexe 5, Article 1 RSTP continues as follows:

“This solidarity contribution reflects the number of years (calculated prorata if less than one year) he was registered with the relevant club(s) between the seasons of his 12th and 23rd birthdays, as follows:

Season of 12th birthday: 5% (i.e. 0.25% of total compensation);
Season of 13th birthday: 5% (i.e. 0.25% of total compensation);
Season of 14th birthday: 5% (i.e. 0.25% of total compensation);
Season of 15th birthday: 5% (i.e. 0.25% of total compensation);
Season of 16th birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 17th birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 18th birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 19th birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 20th birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 21st birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 22nd birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation);
Season of 23rd birthday: 10% (i.e. 0.5% of total compensation).”

 

https://kennethrusso.com/training-compensation-and-solidarity-payments/

[jambo89]

On 29/12/2021 at 21:13, SUTOL said:

 

 

See also Ryan Christie to Bournemouth netting ICT some money. 

 

 

Yes, as I posted earlier. If the player doesn't move for a fee, or signs a new contract it would probably end the 'sell-on' clause(s).

 

I have siad before on this thread, but it is unusual for a sell on fee to be paid to multiple clubs. Ryan Christie and a few others being exceptions to the rule. When Wolves sold Doherty to Tottenham, Bohemians were paid a sell on fee. That was depsite Doherty being at wolves for 10 years where I have no doubt he signed a few 'new contracts'

 

On 30/12/2021 at 08:55, Ribble said:

One of the older examples I can find is Hayes FC inserting a 10% all on clause when they sold Les Ferdinand to QPR in 1987, they then pocketed 600k in 1995 when he moved to Newcastle.

 

So certainly not a new thing but I suspect sell on clauses becoming more prevalent in the bowman era as clubs were forced to sell players whose contracts were running down?

 

 

Correct but hayes were only paid money for the transfer from QPR to Newcastle, and recieved no money from his sale to Tottenham, as is the standard for sell-on clauses. As mentioned above, it is unusal for multiple parties to recieve sell on fees, but not unheard of, and the sell-on of a sell-on of a sell-on clause, seems to be a new thing.

[john1951]

16 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

Don't understand why there's a debate 

 

If celtic have a further % sell on then it won't affect Hearts. 

For simples sake, say celtic and Hearts have 10% on his next fee. 

 

Hickey goes for £10m

Both clubs get £1m

 

If only Hearts have that clause, we still get £1m

 

🤷‍♂️

 

At the shareholders dinner Joe Savage stated quite clearly that no other clubs were entitled to any part of Hickeys sell on fee.

[SkabalaJam]

.

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by SkabalaJam

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

I have siad before on this thread, but it is unusual for a sell on fee to be paid to multiple clubs. Ryan Christie and a few others being exceptions to the rule. When Wolves sold Doherty to Tottenham, Bohemians were paid a sell on fee. That was depsite Doherty being at wolves for 10 years where I have no doubt he signed a few 'new contracts'

 

 

 

Correct but hayes were only paid money for the transfer from QPR to Newcastle, and recieved no money from his sale to Tottenham, as is the standard for sell-on clauses. As mentioned above, it is unusal for multiple parties to recieve sell on fees, but not unheard of, and the sell-on of a sell-on of a sell-on clause, seems to be a new thing.

 

As I've said before I wouldn't claim to know, but if this isn't the norm I'd expect it to become the norm pretty bloody quickly or it's clubs just throwing money away.

 

Re Ferdinand though, do you actually know for a fact that Hayes didn't receive money relating to his following move? It sounds like something no one on here could know for sure.

[Mikey1874]

 

[Yoda]

18 hours ago, Cruyff said:

We got him for **** all. We've made a million odd from his sale and may make more. Overall a good piece of business.

and that goal at Easter Road.  Priceless.

[Kiwidoug]

17 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Good on Bologna for thinking of us.

[TheBigO]

30 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Their social media is superb isnt it

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Their social media is superb isnt it

 

Engaging, humorous and solidly behind the team, just how it should be done.

[Cruyff]

9 hours ago, Yoda said:

and that goal at Easter Road.  Priceless.

The wee man's do e brilliant but he's not a Hearts man. We've made money from his sale, hopefully we make more. As a big Scotsman I hope the laddies improves and has a great career for club and Country. Good luck to Aaron.

[Section Q]

On 31/12/2021 at 12:51, Smithee said:

 

As I've said before I wouldn't claim to know, but if this isn't the norm I'd expect it to become the norm pretty bloody quickly or it's clubs just throwing money away.

 

Re Ferdinand though, do you actually know for a fact that Hayes didn't receive money relating to his following move? It sounds like something no one on here could know for sure.

Collateral contracts aren't uncommon these days. Would imagine football's no different.

[TheBigO]

8 hours ago, Cruyff said:

The wee man's do e brilliant but he's not a Hearts man. We've made money from his sale, hopefully we make more. As a big Scotsman I hope the laddies improves and has a great career for club and Country. Good luck to Aaron.

Yup. I like seeing any Scot doing well overseas. Liam Henderson has done brill and really keen to see how the lads at Bayern do.

 

Mind you, much as he's not maybe a died in the wool Jambo, Aarons still one of ours imo, so especially want him to do well. Theres the warm fuzzy side of that but also myriad benefits to us from him success (direct financial and club/academy profile)

[Mikey1874]

8 hours ago, Cruyff said:

The wee man's do e brilliant but he's not a Hearts man. We've made money from his sale, hopefully we make more. As a big Scotsman I hope the laddies improves and has a great career for club and Country. Good luck to Aaron.

 

Same as for example John Souttar isn't a 'Hearts man' though probably a lot less interest in his next career.

 

I still think Hickey's performance in the Cup final as a new player is the foundation of his popularity. Souttar for example has done nothing of that sort. 

 

Interesting concept. 

[Perth to Paisley]

C19+ve

Will disturb his prep for 2nd half of season

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

5 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Same as for example John Souttar isn't a 'Hearts man' though probably a lot less interest in his next career.

 

I still think Hickey's performance in the Cup final as a new player is the foundation of his popularity. Souttar for example has done nothing of that sort. 

 

Interesting concept. 

 

For I think a lot of Hearts fans you feel a greater affinity for players who come into the team at a very young age, progressing from the reserves or youth team, even if - like Levein, Patterson and Hickey for example - they hadn't been with us since a very young age so maybe aren't strictly speaking "Academy" players (but then who cares really as very few of us know what players are at the club until they enter the first team picture?). Hickey's also an unusual case - like Gordon and Levein, and the likes of Mackay and others further back, he has genuine world-class potential.

 

I'll be following Hickey's career the same way I have Paterson's, Naysmith's, Bowman's, Gordon's and others who broke into the team age 16,17,18 and were a success. I do consider us to have "made" these players. The fact we signed Hickey from Celtic actually adds to that for me as they clearly didn't know what they had while we did. So it reflects very well on us as a club. And he wasn't;t the finished article when we signed him so we certainly progressed him significantly. A lesson for many young players choosing between the OF and a club our size.

 

Souttar on the other hand was an established name when we signed him, even though he was still young. He's another category of player Hearts fans like - someone with potential who we picked up, improved them and turned them into an international who went on to get a bigger move. Souttar's in the same company as McCann, McKinlay, Cameron, etc for me but a level below as he didn't;t have the same impact obviously due to injuries.

Edited January 1, 2022 by ToqueJambo

[Heartsofgold]

2 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

For I think a lot of Hearts fans you feel a greater affinity for players who come into the team at a very young age, progressing from the reserves or youth team, even if - like Levein, Patterson and Hickey for example - they hadn't been with us since a very young age so maybe aren't strictly speaking "Academy" players (but then who cares really as very few of us know what players are at the club until they enter the first team picture?). Hickey's also an unusual case - like Gordon and Levein, and the likes of Mackay and others further back, he has genuine world-class potential.

 

I'll be following Hickey's career the same way I have Paterson's, Naysmith's, Bowman's, Gordon's and others who broke into the team age 16,17,18 and were a success. I do consider us to have "made" these players. The fact we signed Hickey from Celtic actually adds to that for me as they clearly didn't know what they had while we did. So it reflects very well on us as a club. And he wasn't;t the finished article when we signed him so we certainly progressed him significantly. A lesson for many young players choosing between the OF and a club our size.

 

Souttar on the other hand was an established name when we signed him, even though he was still young. He's another category of player Hearts fans like - someone with potential who we picked up, improved them and turned them into an international who went on to get a bigger move. Souttar's in the same company as McCann, McKinlay, Cameron, etc for me but a level below as he didn't;t have the same impact obviously due to injuries.

Very good post imho. 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

For I think a lot of Hearts fans you feel a greater affinity for players who come into the team at a very young age, progressing from the reserves or youth team, even if - like Levein, Patterson and Hickey for example - they hadn't been with us since a very young age so maybe aren't strictly speaking "Academy" players (but then who cares really as very few of us know what players are at the club until they enter the first team picture?). Hickey's also an unusual case - like Gordon and Levein, and the likes of Mackay and others further back, he has genuine world-class potential.

 

I'll be following Hickey's career the same way I have Paterson's, Naysmith's, Bowman's, Gordon's and others who broke into the team age 16,17,18 and were a success. I do consider us to have "made" these players. The fact we signed Hickey from Celtic actually adds to that for me as they clearly didn't know what they had while we did. So it reflects very well on us as a club. And he wasn't;t the finished article when we signed him so we certainly progressed him significantly. A lesson for many young players choosing between the OF and a club our size.

 

Souttar on the other hand was an established name when we signed him, even though he was still young. He's another category of player Hearts fans like - someone with potential who we picked up, improved them and turned them into an international who went on to get a bigger move. Souttar's in the same company as McCann, McKinlay, Cameron, etc for me but a level below as he didn't;t have the same impact obviously due to injuries.

Very good post. 

I was always a fan of Mackay and Young. And Bannon and Gordon. And every Hearts player who progressed to a bigger stage. Even like Willie Wallace and others who moved to the Weege.  Our best players always will move on. And have. At least in the last 60 years or so. 

[Hood09]

Noises about he is moving with not just villa interested

[vegas-voss]

I'm just pleased to see him doing really well.If Hearts get something out of it then great but it's just really good to see a young lad we gave his break to playing so well in a top league in a foreign country were so  many Brits have failed or been to scared to try out.

[chrisyboy7]

We will defiantly get more money for this wonderful player

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

Still don’t believe we agreed a fixed fee for any future sale…

[Doctor FinnBarr]

On 31/12/2021 at 16:11, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

For me thats absolute class from Bologna (yes I was there early 90s when we got rattled). Don't do Twitter so I hope someone has thanked them.

[Unknown user]

6 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

For me thats absolute class from Bologna (yes I was there early 90s when we got rattled). Don't do Twitter so I hope someone has thanked them.

 

I thanked them by improving their badge

[Doctor FinnBarr]

11 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I thanked them by improving their badge

 

Thats the game.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

18 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

For me thats absolute class from Bologna (yes I was there early 90s when we got rattled). Don't do Twitter so I hope someone has thanked them.

 

That was some cup tie. Unless my memory is playing tricks I think Wallace Mercer annoyed a lot of folk by raising the prices to a ridiculous level for the home tie.