Hickey - signs for Bologna

[cb1874]

58 minutes ago, BlingCrosby said:

 

Am I wrong in thinking his age prohibited a five year deal?

Correct...I believe as soon as he turned 18, we offered a new deal but he and his father refused. It wasn't our fault.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

I love Hearts but there’s no way I’d stop my kid having the chance to go learn his trade at Bayern over us.

His Dad obviously really really hates Newco.

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 hour ago, Morgaro Gomis said:

 

You're also not allowed to hand out a 5 year deal to anyone under the age of 18, as far as I am aware. 3 years is the max at that stage, which is what he got. 

 

A lot of blame can lie at the feet of Levein and the club, Hickey not extending his deal is not one of those, though. 

He may not be extending because we assembled a basket case squad of injury prone, cowardly, losers, unable to win a game of football when it matters, and have therefore been ousted to lower league, which may or may not actually play this season. 

[jr ewing]

7 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

He may not be extending because we assembled a basket case squad of injury prone, cowardly, losers, unable to win a game of football when it matters, and have therefore been ousted to lower league, which may or may not actually play this season. 

Or it could be he wants more money. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

33 minutes ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

I love Hearts but there’s no way I’d stop my kid having the chance to go learn his trade at Bayern over us.

His Dad obviously really really hates Newco.

Exactly.

He can go to Smeltic at the end of his career.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

17 hours ago, Byyy The Light said:

You know Davies is only 18 months older? 

 

Yes, and when the same age no-one was talking about Davies as world class. It's literally happened within the space of a year.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

17 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

He may not be extending because we assembled a basket case squad of injury prone, cowardly, losers, unable to win a game of football when it matters, and have therefore been ousted to lower league, which may or may not actually play this season. 

 

That was down to the pandemic and Dundee vote mate.

Edited August 18, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, bajthejambo said:

Social media is hilarious. Only in Scotland could an 18 years old be offered a five year contract at Bayern Munich and the general response is "what's he going there for?". 

 

Celtic fans I assume? They still think Rodgers would be better off managing a team in a league they've won every season before a ball is kicked rather than battling against the cream of English football for a CL spot at the top end of the EPL. They probably think Tierney is slumming it with Arsenal.

[jbee647]

4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Celtic fans I assume? They still think Rodgers would be better off managing a team in a league they've won every season before a ball is kicked rather than battling against the cream of English football for a CL spot at the top end of the EPL. They probably think Tierney is slumming it with Arsenal.

Absolutely no doubt about it, they actually believe 10IAR actually means something 

in the grand scheme of things Scottish Football, Celtic and Rangers are tinpot 

[ramrod]

2 hours ago, jbee647 said:

Not neccasrily at 16, but we will never get serious return on any young player if we don’t have them tied down to a reasonable length of contract

its about backing your judgement and timing of when to give them that deal, for example, after a month of playing in the first team, Callum Paterson should have been given a 5 year deal, just an example

It's not just about the club though is iit . The player , his agent , his family all come into the mix . 

Stick to football manager if you want fantasy and we'll  all live in the real world . 

[jambo_74]

18 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Yes, and when the same age no-one was talking about Davies as world class. It's literally happened within the space of a year.

Not as a left back, but he was quoted as far back as 2017 in the top sixty 'Players to watch' . At the time he was playing as a winger, and it's only been in the last eight months left back has become his regular position. He cost Bayern a fair old whack as well. I think he will shift between left back and winger depending on availability of players. With regards to Hickey, I see him as more of a Philip Lahm, full back / midfielder, two good feet, composed and thoughtful on the ball (before anyone says it, clearly not the finished article, but you never know).

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, John Findlay said:

That's not strictly true.

 

Well if you can point me to a player in the last say 25 years who, by staying in Scotland, has gone on to have a stellar career and be talked about in the same breath as the worlds best then maybe I'll change my mind but I doubt I will.

[John Findlay]

5 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Well if you can point me to a player in the last say 25 years who, by staying in Scotland, has gone on to have a stellar career and be talked about in the same breath as the worlds best then maybe I'll change my mind but I doubt I will.

Andy Robertson.

[Lovecraft]

12 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Well if you can point me to a player in the last say 25 years who, by staying in Scotland, has gone on to have a stellar career and be talked about in the same breath as the worlds best then maybe I'll change my mind but I doubt I will.

 Henrik Larsson?

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, on&up2017 said:

Well you can. He was signed during Levein’s tenure as top dog, on a 3-year contract with a 30% sell on clause. Surely, like other clubs (Hibs included) tie quality youth down on a 5-year contract, the contract won’t cost anything like those rejects he was quick enough handing out bumper 3-year deals.

 

You can't hand out 5 year deals to under 18's, illegal I believe. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, jbee647 said:

Agreed, but there are occasions where you need to gamble and back your judgment, granted you won’t get it right every time, but if he had faith in Hickey to play him in a cup final at 16, there should steps in place to put him on a longer contract

Our academy has not made us any real returns since Berra and Gordon in 2008 and 2007

We must get it sorted with regards to the rewards, part of that is getting your better young players on longer contracts, one answer would be don’t play them in the first team till they are at least 18 and we have them tied down, a bit of cutting your nose off to spite your face there..

 

 

You can't hand out 5 year deals at 16/ 17, 2 years is the max, then you go again. 

He refused to sign a new one at 18.

[frankblack]

16 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Andy Robertson.

 

Not by staying in Scotland.

[Seymour M Hersh]

31 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Andy Robertson.

 

24 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 Henrik Larsson?

 

Andy went south which is exactly my point.

 

Henrik definitely top, top player but not so Scottish.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

21 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

You can't hand out 5 year deals at 16/ 17, 2 years is the max, then you go again. 

He refused to sign a new one at 18.

What about a Jim McLean contract, sign for 15 year's now son or GTF, 80s style deal

Edited August 18, 2020 by Ma Roon

[Bazzas right boot]

3 minutes ago, Ma Roon said:

What about a Jim McLean contract, sign for 15 year's now son or GTF, 80s style deal

 

Imagine Wighton on that bad boy. 

[upgotheheads]

3 minutes ago, Ma Roon said:

What about a Jim McLean contract, sign for 15 year's now son or GTF, 80s style deal

 

Before Bosman football was a form of bonded slavery. Not a place we should be going to, but I get your drift.

[upgotheheads]

36 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 Henrik Larsson?

 

Well he didn't 'stay' in Scotland, he came to Scotland, and only stayed here so long because of the arrogance of English managers who couldn't spot a player unless someone else had spent millions on him first.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

7 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

 

Before Bosman football was a form of bonded slavery. Not a place we should be going to, but I get your drift.

"bonded slavery" I wish I could have kicked a ball for a living back then sounded more fun than it is now 

[OTT]

3 hours ago, 18Jambo_dave74 said:

I have to admit I’m a little bit disappointed that Hickey (or perhaps his dad?) has refused to sign a new contract to ensure that Hearts get a higher fee for him and closer to his true value. It’s clear that Hearts have made a huge effort to try and get him to sign a new contract. Wouldn’t be many clubs that play a 16 year old in a Scottish Cup Final and make him a regular starter thereafter. 
 

I understand Hickey and his family have to do what’s best for them, I’m just looking at it from the clubs view. As others have said I’d love to see him go to Bayern (or even Bologna would be a great move) and watch his development.

 

Agreed. It undermines the point of youth development. 

 

Thing is, Aberdeen were able to get McKenna to extend and Hibs were able to get Cummings to extend. It happens, we've just not been successful. Quite why, is another story. 

 

I do share your disappointment in them though. I want to see more money invested in the academy, but we need to temper that because this will keep happening. Hickey might have been looking at a transfer record for a Scottish teenager had he signed the extension. Instead we've been forced into a below market value sale. 

 

 

[upgotheheads]

Just now, Ma Roon said:

"bonded slavery" I wish I could have kicked a ball for a living back then sounded more fun than it is now 

 

Aye, but the club 'owned' you for life, or at least until you were done. 

[colinmaroon]

4 hours ago, on&up2017 said:

Well you can. He was signed during Levein’s tenure as top dog, on a 3-year contract with a 30% sell on clause. Surely, like other clubs (Hibs included) tie quality youth down on a 5-year contract, the contract won’t cost anything like those rejects he was quick enough handing out bumper 3-year deals.

 

I take you weren't around some years ago when we were signing up kids for 5 years and this place was raging when they didnt make the grade.

 

 

[jr ewing]

No news.I guess he's decided to let his contract run out and then decide. 

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, jr ewing said:

No news.I guess he's decided to let his contract run out and then decide.

 

If he does this i hope his next shite is a hedgehog, I'll stop short of hoping some p/t hatchet man blasts him into next week. 

 

I still think he'll sign for bayern and all will be relatively happy. 

[jr ewing]

1 minute ago, colinmaroon said:

 

I take you weren't around some years ago when we were signing up kids for 5 years and this place was raging when they didnt make the grade.

 

 

None made the grade. Even at other clubs after they left.

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

I take you weren't around some years ago when we were signing up kids for 5 years and this place was raging when they didnt make the grade.

 

 

 

 

Not enough 5 year deals nowadays 

 

 

 

[DH1986]

3 hours ago, Stupid Sexy Flanders said:

 

Possibly the likes of Jamie Mole led to a change in strategy in this department. 

“shudder”

[jbee647]

17 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Not enough 5 year deals nowadays 

 

 

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with handing out 5 year deals

if you know the player, his character, his attitude, obviously he has to have the ability too ( wouldn’t have been signed if they didn’t have ability), different factors have to be taken into account, but if we have coaches who are good at there job then should have a very good idea who they think who is going to make the grade, making the grade is defined by someone who will make a career from professional football, not necessarily someone we will sell for £3m.

For some time I don’t genuinely believe our scouts and coaching staff have been up to scratch.

[Ibrahim Tall]

3 hours ago, Stupid Sexy Flanders said:

 

Possibly the likes of Jamie Mole led to a change in strategy in this department. 

Mole atleast played a few games and scored a couple goals to be fair. We got more back on that ‘investment’ than we did spunking 5 year deals on Marco Pelosi and Sean Mackle. 

[Jambo61]

27 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

If he does this i hope his next shite is a hedgehog, I'll stop short of hoping some p/t hatchet man blasts him into next week. 

 

I still think he'll sign for bayern and all will be relatively happy. 

No way will he let this offer slip and gamble on a pay day that might never happen 1 year from now!

 

He could hardly get a better offer!

[upgotheheads]

20 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

“shudder”

Jamie Mole is now 32. No team after Blythe Spartans according to Wiki.

[Bazzas right boot]

10 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

Absolutely nothing wrong with handing out 5 year deals

if you know the player, his character, his attitude, obviously he has to have the ability too ( wouldn’t have been signed if they didn’t have ability), different factors have to be taken into account, but if we have coaches who are good at there job then should have a very good idea who they think who is going to make the grade, making the grade is defined by someone who will make a career from professional football, not necessarily someone we will sell for £3m.

For some time I don’t genuinely believe our scouts and coaching staff have been up to scratch.

 

 

Not Upto scratch is the polite way of phrasing it. 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, upgotheheads said:

Jamie Mole is now 32. No team after Blythe Spartans according to Wiki.

Yeah, not played since he was 24. 

[Hungry hippo]

37 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

No news.I guess he's decided to let his contract run out and then decide. 

 

That's a bit of a leap just because there hasn't been an update.

[upgotheheads]

 

6 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Yeah, not played since he was 24. 

At least he can tell his kids he played in the European Cup (Champions League?) at Murrayfield against one of Europe's  top clubs.

Edited August 18, 2020 by upgotheheads

[jbee647]

8 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Not Upto scratch is the polite way of phrasing it. 

Tactful is my middle name 😳

[soonbe110]

46 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Agreed. It undermines the point of youth development. 

 

Thing is, Aberdeen were able to get McKenna to extend and Hibs were able to get Cummings to extend. It happens, we've just not been successful. Quite why, is another story. 

 

I do share your disappointment in them though. I want to see more money invested in the academy, but we need to temper that because this will keep happening. Hickey might have been looking at a transfer record for a Scottish teenager had he signed the extension. Instead we've been forced into a below market value sale. 

 

 

Age is the main factor 

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, soonbe110 said:

Age is the main factor 

 

 

... In so many things in life! 

[OTT]

Deals can be structured in a multitude of ways, I don't have any issue with handing out 5 year deals to young players. We are making a huge investment in our academy. Its important that we do everything in our power to protect that investment. 

 

You could have the deal set up so they get a year on year increase, appearance incentives tied into it etc. (e.g. make 30 appearances and your wage permanently increases by £500 a week). Something like that. Young players are never on big money initially anyway, so there is more tolerance for risk, How many deals can we get wrong before we have 1 Malaury Martin? 5? Thats not bad. If 1 or 2 come good, then its paid itself off. 

 

Club policy could be to avoid giving 16/17 year olds game time but to really channel game time towards 18+. Call it protecting them from the harsh physical Scottish game. Give them a game or two around 18 to see how they do then offer the 5 year deal, if they don't seem up to much be more cautious. If they want to go back to the reserves till their contracts up, then thats up to them. Need to be proactive and protective about the youngsters contract situations.

[Bazzas right boot]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

Deals can be structured in a multitude of ways, I don't have any issue with handing out 5 year deals to young players. We are making a huge investment in our academy. Its important that we do everything in our power to protect that investment. 

 

You could have the deal set up so they get a year on year increase, appearance incentives tied into it etc. (e.g. make 30 appearances and your wage permanently increases by £500 a week). Something like that. Young players are never on big money initially anyway, so there is more tolerance for risk, How many deals can we get wrong before we have 1 Malaury Martin? 5? Thats not bad. If 1 or 2 come good, then its paid itself off. 

 

Club policy could be to avoid giving 16/17 year olds game time but to really channel game time towards 18+. Call it protecting them from the harsh physical Scottish game. Give them a game or two around 18 to see how they do then offer the 5 year deal, if they don't seem up to much be more cautious. If they want to go back to the reserves till their contracts up, then thats up to them. Need to be proactive and protective about the youngsters contract situations.

 

 

Thing is, longer deals can only be handed out to over 18's and if like Hickey they become prominent at 16/17 we're ****ed as they won't sign an extension at 18 as they have options! 

 

 

 

 

[Footballfirst]

You cannot offer U18 players a contract of more than three years. - FIFA regulation

[Byyy The Light]

2 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Yes, and when the same age no-one was talking about Davies as world class. It's literally happened within the space of a year.

Don’t think that is strictly true but it’s splitting hairs anyway.
 

I want Hickey to do well, he’s certainly got a more rounded game than what I remember seeing of Robertson at Utd. I just can’t picture him being the flying fullback that these world class teams are after. They all have bags and bags of pace and can run all day. I just don’t see him as that player. 

[livi]

37 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

 

At least he can tell his kids he played in the European Cup (Champions League?) at Murrayfield "For" one of Europe's  top clubs.

 

Fixed that for you 😍

[OTT]

9 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Thing is, longer deals can only be handed out to over 18's and if like Hickey they become prominent at 16/17 we're ****ed as they won't sign an extension at 18 as they have options! 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm suggesting a way round that by making it club policy not to play under 18s. Dress it up as protecting them from more physical players, Brown on Cochrane can be sited as an example of this. They can get a couple of games when they're around 18 so the manager can get a gauge of how they are under pressure and then can decide on 5 years or 3 (or none!). That way we get round the FIFA regulation FF mentions above. 

 

I know its not exactly ethical, but neither is running down your contract. The club needs to put its interests first and ensuring that the youth academy works for us, rather than the other way round is really important. We're not in a cash rich league, so we need to be selling players for their max value where possible. 

 

Obviously the risk is allowing a large number of youngsters on these long term deals to build up that aren't cutting the mustard, but if its managed correctly it could be a good way to protect our interests better. Ultimately, getting 1 senior player wrong is an outlay of in the region of £2500-£4000 p/w. Youngsters can't command as much so we can 'afford' to get it wrong more. (obviously getting it wrong at all is not really desirable but nonetheless is going to happen). 

 

Theres going to be outliers, kids like Gilmour at Rangers who get their heads turned and thats it, game over. But broadly speaking I think it would help better protect our interests. 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

I'm suggesting a way round that by making it club policy not to play under 18s. Dress it up as protecting them from more physical players, Brown on Cochrane can be sited as an example of this. They can get a couple of games when they're around 18 so the manager can get a gauge of how they are under pressure and then can decide on 5 years or 3 (or none!). That way we get round the FIFA regulation FF mentions above. 

 

I know its not exactly ethical, but neither is running down your contract. The club needs to put its interests first and ensuring that the youth academy works for us, rather than the other way round is really important. We're not in a cash rich league, so we need to be selling players for their max value where possible. 

 

Obviously the risk is allowing a large number of youngsters on these long term deals to build up that aren't cutting the mustard, but if its managed correctly it could be a good way to protect our interests better. Ultimately, getting 1 senior player wrong is an outlay of in the region of £2500-£4000 p/w. Youngsters can't command as much so we can 'afford' to get it wrong more. (obviously getting it wrong at all is not really desirable but nonetheless is going to happen). 

 

Theres going to be outliers, kids like Gilmour at Rangers who get their heads turned and thats it, game over. But broadly speaking I think it would help better protect our interests. 

 

 

 

It's a plan, but if a club like Aberdeen!/Hibs says come to us and we'll play you if you're good enough we might lose out. 

 

Comes back to the academy argument again. 

 

Big clubs pay more, have better facilities, smaller clubs can offer game time, it's a juggling act and one with bosman and player power is stacked against a club like ours. 

 

Ideally you want a player and agent of sound characters to sign a long deal with a buyout close and not do what Patterson and Hickey have done. 

 

Happens all over tho, youth players, older players, Ryan fraser binned Bournemouth just the same way. 

 

Clubs will do it us, we'll do it to other clubs. 

It's all a bit shit Tbh. 

 

[OTT]

Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

It's a plan, but if a club like Aberdeen!/Hibs says come to us and we'll play you if you're good enough we might lose out. 

 

Comes back to the academy argument again. 

 

Big clubs pay more, have better facilities, smaller clubs can offer game time, it's a juggling act and one with bosman and player power is stacked against a club like ours. 

 

Ideally you want a player and agent of sound characters to sign a long deal with a buyout close and not do what Patterson and Hickey have done. 

 

Happens all over tho, youth players, older players, Ryan fraser binned Bournemouth just the same way. 

 

Clubs will do it us, we'll do it to other clubs. 

It's all a bit shit Tbh. 

 

 

It is indeed.

 

I wouldn't say they are mutually exclusive though, we could still have a youthcentric strategy, just with a policy of not playing literal children against grown men. Obviously, i'm pushing it from the perspective of protecting our interests. Clubs like you suggest can come to them and say that, but if McInnes or Ross are away signing bucket loads of journeymen then their opportunities are going to be limited. If we're publicly committed to bringing through youth and our facilities are better than the cow shed hibs have and (Do Aberdeen actually even have facilities.. google has them right on the beach...) then I think its potential damage will be much more reduced. 

 

It may not be a good idea, but something needs to be thought about in regards to protecting the time, energy and resources (as well as the huge amount of money) to train these kids up. Ultimately 1 good transfer fee can pay for heaps of kids to not make it at hearts. That still gives them a shot at a professional career. The last thing we want is to be considering cutting costs because the results aren't enough. 

 

What if we did something where we commit to ring fencing a set proportion of every transfer fee we get provided that youngster came from the academy. It sort of puts the ball in their court, in a way that says if you want to run down your contract and ensure we get very little for you, then that will mean less money into the academy for other youngsters. I remember Gordon gave up his portion of the Sunderland transfer to support the youth development programme. So its something the players could get behind I think. 

 

Its something that needs seriously looked at IMO. Perhaps our new CEO can investigate it with the Arnott and JJ to figure out a positive way to do this (both my ideas seem more on the negative side).