Hickey - signs for Bologna

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

Is that 100% fact?

 

Genuine question.

 

Do they have it in the contract that they get 30% of any future sale (From us to another club) and then a % of any sell on clause from that 3rd to club to another?

 

 

I know no more than those who say they wouldn't get a cut!

Surely it seems pretty unlikely that they haven't got that eventuality covered after years and years of sell on fees though?

[Saint Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

A sell on fee is part of the transfer fee we receive, it's just that it's delayed. Celtic would get a cut of that too.

 

3 minutes ago, Tiger said:

 

So they are forever going to get a cut every time he moves club? I dont think so.

 

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Didn't say that mate, celtic are due a cut of any transfer fee we receive for Hickey. That'll include any sell-on fee we receive.

 

Good luck trying to convince people of this Smithee. I mean, it's true but good luck trying to get people to accept it. In the past I've linked to news stories where this is happening with other players, but most posters just refuse to accept it.

 

What would break the chain is the player makes a move without a sell-on fee included either because it wasn't included in a transfer deal or because the player moved when out of contract.

 

Equally, if the deal is paid in instalments or with additional payments based on hitting certain targets, Celtic will be due a cut.

 

Effectively the sell on clause relates to future revenue received in relation to that player's sale. In theory you could have a chain of many clubs with a sell on in each deal and money would trickle back down the chain. But at each stage the club at the beginning of the chain would get less. If Celtic have a 30% sell on, then we have a 10% sell on in a deal with Bayern, Celtic would get 3% of the fee that Bayern sold for (while we would retain 7%).

[Ari Gold]

5 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

do you have a link?

 

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18657258.aaron-hickey-not-completed-bayern-munich-move-continues-weigh-options/

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Finlay James said:

 

Nope, it's a myth that's never been substantiated 

No more of a myth than Celtic would get nothing 

[Lovecraft]

4 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

 

 

Good luck trying to convince people of this Smithee. I mean, it's true but good luck trying to get people to accept it. In the past I've linked to news stories where this is happening with other players, but most posters just refuse to accept it.

 

What would break the chain is the player makes a move without a sell-on fee included either because it wasn't included in a transfer deal or because the player moved when out of contract.

 

Equally, if the deal is paid in instalments or with additional payments based on hitting certain targets, Celtic will be due a cut.

 

Effectively the sell on clause relates to future revenue received in relation to that player's sale. In theory you could have a chain of many clubs with a sell on in each deal and money would trickle back down the chain. But at each stage the club at the beginning of the chain would get less. If Celtic have a 30% sell on, then we have a 10% sell on in a deal with Bayern, Celtic would get 3% of the fee that Bayern sold for (while we would retain 7%).

 

I don't doubt it.  Football and agents are sketchy AF.

 

Surely every club should just be doing this then?

 

We should have done it with Clare, Washington, Uche etc.....

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Lovecraft

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

 

 

Good luck trying to convince people of this Smithee. I mean, it's true but good luck trying to get people to accept it. In the past I've linked to news stories where this is happening with other players, but most posters just refuse to accept it.

 

What would break the chain is the player makes a move without a sell-on fee included either because it wasn't included in a transfer deal or because the player moved when out of contract.

 

Equally, if the deal is paid in instalments or with additional payments based on hitting certain targets, Celtic will be due a cut.

 

Effectively the sell on clause relates to future revenue received in relation to that player's sale. In theory you could have a chain of many clubs with a sell on in each deal and money would trickle back down the chain. But at each stage the club at the beginning of the chain would get less. If Celtic have a 30% sell on, then we have a 10% sell on in a deal with Bayern, Celtic would get 3% of the fee that Bayern sold for (while we would retain 7%).

 

Yip, and we've seen it happen in the past (specific examples escape me TBF)

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

I don't doubt it.  Football and agents are sketch AF.

 

Surely every club should just be doing this then?

 

We should have done it with Clare, Washington, Uche etc.....

 

 

 

Maybe we did!

[Saint Jambo]

1 minute ago, Lovecraft said:

 

I don't doubt it.  Football and agents are sketchy AF.

 

Surely every club should just be doing this then?

 

We should have done it with Clare, Washington, Uche etc.....

 

 

 

If we have sell on clauses that will be how they work. But negotiating sell on clauses is part of the overall negotiation. You would expect to pay less up front if you are giving the selling team a sell on clause. How much that is worth depends on how likely it is that you think the player is likely to be sold on for a fee and how much you think that sale (and other future sales in the chain) would be.

 

If Oxford said we'll pay you £200k now or £100k plus a 10% sell on fee, we would effectively be gambling that he went for more than £1m from Oxford in the future.

[Lovecraft]

1 minute ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

If we have sell on clauses that will be how they work. But negotiating sell on clauses is part of the overall negotiation. You would expect to pay less up front if you are giving the selling team a sell on clause. How much that is worth depends on how likely it is that you think the player is likely to be sold on for a fee and how much you think that sale (and other future sales in the chain) would be.

 

If Oxford said we'll pay you £200k now or £100k plus a 10% sell on fee, we would effectively be gambling that he went for more than £1m from Oxford in the future.

 Hope so.  I think Clare will go on to be a very good player.

 

 

[Unknown user]

Performance related bonuses, sell-on fees, any money Hearts will be entitled to as a result of this transaction will be fair game for celtic to get a cut.

 

They have solicitors, legal advisors, decades of experience in contracts and transfers, is there any chance at all they haven't thought of this angle and haven't worded their sales contract appropriately?

[sum31uk]

47 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

What a ridiculous post. 

 

[GinRummy]

Just now, sum31uk said:

 

😀 aye, sorry, totally missed it. 

[upgotheheads]

23 minutes ago, Ari Gold said:

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18657258.aaron-hickey-not-completed-bayern-munich-move-continues-weigh-options/

 

A clickbait non-story. Someone phones his agent/parent and says "so it's a done deal with Bayern then?" "No".

 

Headline.

[Jambo92]

4 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

 

A clickbait non-story. Someone phones his agent/parent and says "so it's a done deal with Bayern then?" "No".

 

Headline.

 

Yip, the amount of folk stealing a living in the 'media' is frightening, putting up tweets and stories with zero credibility for clicks and then quickly remove a few minutes/hours later when their guess is wrong. 

 

The Neilson move back recently left a lot of 'journos' with egg on faces.

[Saint Jambo]

 

42 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

Is that 100% fact?

 

Genuine question.

 

Do they have it in the contract that they get 30% of any future sale (From us to another club) and then a % of any sell on clause from that 3rd club to another?

 

 

 

 

Just as a follow-up, I went back to find one of the examples I quoted in a previous thread to show how a deal is structured in this way. It is a bit complicated to follow, but...

 

Quote

So here is an example of a deal from this summer structured in the way I suggested...

"[Ipswich] look set to receive a third sell-on windfall of the summer with Brighton and Hove Albion widely reported to have made a £20 million - plus add-ons totalling a further £5 million - offer to Bristol City for ex-[Ipswich] centre-half Adam Webster. Webster joined [Bristol] from [Ipswich] for an initial £3.5 million last summer with the fee potentially rising to £8 million and some of those top-ups are almost certain to have been paid over the course of last season. [We] understands the sell-on clause in that deal is just below the previously reported 10 per cent, while Portsmouth would be due 20 per cent of anything [Ipswich] receive as a result of their sell-on from the 2016 move which saw Webster join [Ipswich] and Matt Clarke move to [Portsmouth]."

So Portsmouth -> Ipswich -> Bristol -> Brighton & Hove. Portsmouth would get a percentage of the Bristol to Brighton & Hove transfer despite being at two steps removed from that deal.

 

Similarly in the same story, a transfer where it is clear that a club also benefits from a percentage of the add ons.

"Tyrone Mings’s move from AFC Bournemouth to Aston Villa for an initial £20 million plus potentially another £6.5 million saw the Blues receive £1.2 million now with that windfall potentially reaching £1.85 million."

https://www.twtd.co.uk/ipswich-town-news/36372/town-could-receive-third-summer-sell-on-windfall-as-brighton-close-in-on-webster

 

[Last Laff]

He will end up at Celtic.  Absolute nap. 

[Lovecraft]

1 minute ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

 

Just as a follow-up, I went back to find one of the examples I quoted in a previous thread to show how a deal is structured in this way. It is a bit complicated to follow, but...

 

 

Cheers.

 

Wasn't arguing that Celtic wouldn't have this in place, as they have quite clearly had good sell-on fees for players.   I Just wasn't sure if they would have this in place for someone that didn't actually have a pro contract with them.  I thought that youth contracts were different, hence the reason Hickey couldn't actually sign the a longer contract with us as he was under 18.  Again, I thought the rules would have been different for sell on fees for a player that was under 18.     Surely then all under 18 players at any club have this written into their contracts with every club?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

Cheers.

 

Wasn't arguing that Celtic wouldn't have this in place, as they have quite clearly had good sell-on fees for players.   I Just wasn't sure if they would have this in place for someone that didn't actually have a pro contract with them.  I thought that youth contracts were different, hence the reason Hickey couldn't actually sign the a longer contract with us as he was under 18.  Again, I thought the rules would have been different for sell on fees for a player that was under 18.     Surely then all under 18 players at any club have this written into their contracts with every club?

 

It's not written into their contract, it's part of the contract for the transfer of registration.

[Lovecraft]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not written into their contract, it's part of the contract for the transfer of registration.

 

Sorry.  That's what I meant.

 

I just though there would have been restrictions on sell on fees for youth (U-18) players.

[upgotheheads]

49 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Performance related bonuses, sell-on fees, any money Hearts will be entitled to as a result of this transaction will be fair game for celtic to get a cut.

 

They have solicitors, legal advisors, decades of experience in contracts and transfers, is there any chance at all they haven't thought of this angle and haven't worded their sales contract appropriately?

 

Presumably if, or when, Hickey establishes himself at Club X and then goes on to other (even bigger) clubs then Hearts will get a percentage sell-on, Celtic will get 30%  of that and Hearts will get 70%. Now whatever way you cut it Hearts will have done very well in swiping such a good player from under the noses of Celtic. I hope he goes on to have a stellar career. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

Sorry.  That's what I meant.

 

I just though there would have been restrictions on sell on fees for youth (U-18) players.

I'm with you. Obviously we're all speculating, but there is precedent and it does seem very very unlikely that celtic don't have this covered.

[Tommy Brown]

????

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, upgotheheads said:

 

Presumably if, or when, Hickey establishes himself at Club X and then goes on to other (even bigger) clubs then Hearts will get a percentage sell-on, Celtic will get 30%  of that and Hearts will get 70%. Now whatever way you cut it Hearts will have done very well in swiping such a good player from under the noses of Celtic. I hope he goes on to have a stellar career. 

If we agree a sell on fee, we're not automatically entitled to one. We might decide that a bigger up front fee is better given our current position and that any future development fee would be enough.

But yeah, it looks like we'll do well out of the lad, good luck to him.

[upgotheheads]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

If we agree a sell on fee, we're not automatically entitled to one. We might decide that a bigger up front fee is better given our current position and that any future development fee would be enough.

But yeah, it looks like we'll do well out of the lad, good luck to him.

 

Yup. Glass definitely  half empty.

Edited August 17, 2020 by upgotheheads

[1953]

What a fantastic opportunity Bayern will be for the lad. Moving to another country will be fantastic for some 18 year olds and a nightmare for others so I sincerely hope he can cope with it and goes on to great things.

[OTT]

When Bayern Munich are in for you, its not a decision. 

 

I suspect he's going to Celtic.

[Heartsofgold]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Performance related bonuses, sell-on fees, any money Hearts will be entitled to as a result of this transaction will be fair game for celtic to get a cut.

 

They have solicitors, legal advisors, decades of experience in contracts and transfers, is there any chance at all they haven't thought of this angle and haven't worded their sales contract appropriately?

it will depend on how the original deal was structured. If there is a sell on clause then it is possible they will only be due a percentage  from the original transfer figure not the sell on fee we may negotiate with the buying club. 

[Lfhearts]

4 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

 

Story I was told way back was that Ms Budge was not for selling him to Celtic, pleased if true.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Lfhearts

[A Shoreditch Heart]

24 minutes ago, OTT said:

When Bayern Munich are in for you, its not a decision. 

 

I suspect he's going to Celtic.

Eh - oh please not Glasgow. He's been there and done that before and anyway if you're going to leave us, surely an opportunity to move to Germany and to one of the greatest teams ever is a no brainer !

[7628mm]

27 minutes ago, OTT said:

When Bayern Munich are in for you, its not a decision. 

 

I suspect he's going to Celtic.

 

If he goes to Celtic the possibility is that he will have career as successful as Scott Brown. 

 

If he goes to Bayern he could have a career as successful as Andrew Robertson.  

 

Aaron Hickey is an intelligent footballer we will find out in the next few days if he is an intelligent and ambitious human being.

 

[Paolo]

44 minutes ago, OTT said:

When Bayern Munich are in for you, its not a decision. 

 

I suspect he's going to Celtic.

I’d be incredibly disappointed if he went to Celtic.  Bayern is an opportunity in a lifetime.   

[Beast Boy]

I’d like to be in a position to watch Hickey’s career develop and wish him all the best. If he goes almost anywhere out of the interested teams, I will be able to do that. If he goes to Celtic Park, I hope his career is an abject failure, he gives up on the game before he’s 30, and he blames his Dad for the rest of his life.

[Haringshairband]

If Hickey goes to Celtic, he'll fester on the bench and ruin his career.

[TommyC]

Don't know where he'll end up but Alphonso Davies at Bayern is 19 and lightyears ahead of him. I don't think Hickey will ever play ahead of him, and I don't see why Bayern would sell Davies.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, TommyC said:

Don't know where he'll end up but Alphonso Davies at Bayern is 19 and lightyears ahead of him. I don't think Hickey will ever play ahead of him, and I don't see why Bayern would sell Davies.

Initially he would probably play in their second team.

[TommyC]

2 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Initially he would probably play in their second team.

Definitely. But would he ever play in their first team with Davies there? Seems not, to me. And if not, is that the move he wants if he's after first team football. I think he's good but not good enough to ever play for Bayern as a regular first team player.

[Gav M]

8 minutes ago, TommyC said:

Don't know where he'll end up but Alphonso Davies at Bayern is 19 and lightyears ahead of him. I don't think Hickey will ever play ahead of him, and I don't see why Bayern would sell Davies.

although Hickey is a left back now, Bayern expect their players to be able to play a number of positions, some people who have seen more of him than just his 1st team appearances recon he'll end up at DM. Bayern will develop him and he will play where he is best suited to them.

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, TommyC said:

Definitely. But would he ever play in their first team with Davies there? Seems not, to me. And if not, is that the move he wants if he's after first team football. I think he's good but not good enough to ever play for Bayern as a regular first team player.

Things can change very quickly in fooball so you never know.

[TommyC]

1 minute ago, Gav M said:

although Hickey is a left back now, Bayern expect their players to be able to play a number of positions, some people who have seen more of him than just his 1st team appearances recon he'll end up at DM. Bayern will develop him and he will play where he is best suited to them.

Fair enough. Haven't seen him outside of first team other than the Reserve Cup Final. Obviously hope he does well and plays at that level but personally just can't see him making that level in any position.

[Notts1874]

Just now, TommyC said:

Definitely. But would he ever play in their first team with Davies there? Seems not, to me. And if not, is that the move he wants if he's after first team football. I think he's good but not good enough to ever play for Bayern as a regular first team player.

Well done for writing off a 17 year old. Good job Andy Robertson took your advice. 

This is the kind of shite that ends up with promising players not reaching their levels and signing for Celtic. 

You have no idea how good he might end up or who is going to come in for Davies. 

Let the boy live his dream and reach for the stars. 

This is massive for Hickey and Hearts if he signs for Bayern. Just think what it does for our academy. 

Scotland needs to look further than over the border. 

[Byyy The Light]

13 minutes ago, TommyC said:

Don't know where he'll end up but Alphonso Davies at Bayern is 19 and lightyears ahead of him. I don't think Hickey will ever play ahead of him, and I don't see why Bayern would sell Davies.

I agree with you.
 

Fun fact, one of our new coaches was responsible for developing Alphonso Davies before he moved to Bayern. He’ll know for sure whether Hickey has that sort of level in him. Personally I assume not. 

[Hood09]

Still don’t think he is being bought as a leftback

[Sertse]

29 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

I’d like to be in a position to watch Hickey’s career develop and wish him all the best. If he goes almost anywhere out of the interested teams, I will be able to do that. If he goes to Celtic Park, I hope his career is an abject failure, he gives up on the game before he’s 30, and he blames his Dad for the rest of his life.

Agreed.

Even if Hickey doesn't ever make first team Bayern, they'll develop him and loan him to top sides then he'll find himself getting offers from other huge sides. 

If he goes to septic he'll sit on the bench then end up going to some anonymous English team and waste his career.

Mental how we can all see how glaringly obvious it is yet he's supposedly considering septic.

[Mikey1874]

15 minutes ago, TommyC said:

Don't know where he'll end up but Alphonso Davies at Bayern is 19 and lightyears ahead of him. I don't think Hickey will ever play ahead of him, and I don't see why Bayern would sell Davies.

 

I never understood at the time why Dortmund signed Paul Lambert. 

 

In that case he was established player but what good clubs see is different. 

 

Lots of people focus on Hickey's control and composure. Less spoken about is his character. Still young he is focused and unaffected. Why he didn't need resting. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

12 minutes ago, TommyC said:

Definitely. But would he ever play in their first team with Davies there? Seems not, to me. And if not, is that the move he wants if he's after first team football. I think he's good but not good enough to ever play for Bayern as a regular first team player.

 

When Davies signed Alaba was ahead of him. Davies got his chance due to injury, and took it.

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

When Davies signed Alaba was ahead of him. Davies got his chance due to injury, and took it.

 

Hickey probably not signed just to be a left back. 

[DarthVodka]

8 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Well done for writing off a 17 year old. Good job Andy Robertson took your advice. 

This is the kind of shite that ends up with promising players not reaching their levels and signing for Celtic. 

You have no idea how good he might end up or who is going to come in for Davies. 

Let the boy live his dream and reach for the stars. 

This is massive for Hickey and Hearts if he signs for Bayern. Just think what it does for our academy. 

Scotland needs to look further than over the border. 

completely agree with this. If a club want to sign you then they think you are or could be good enough

 

if Bayern want Hickey then he’d just be crazy to go to Celtic over them, it’s not even a choice in my book. Massive for Hickey, massive for Hearts and amazing for Scottish football in the whole (even though we are not on good terms).

 

he will be treated well, trained better and educated there. How many Scottish players have moved to a club in the worlds top 5 ? At 17/18?

[Boof]

6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

When Davies signed Alaba was ahead of him. Davies got his chance due to injury, and took it.

 

It's almost as if you're suggesting that sometimes footballers can sustain an injury that requires someone else to take their place for a period of time.

 

Nah - sounds too far-fetched to me.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Hickey probably not signed just to be a left back. 

 

Who knows, but Bayern aren't overloaded with LBs. Even Davies is only a recently converted LB. I could see someone paying huge money for Davies in a year or so anyhow.

Edited August 17, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[A Shoreditch Heart]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I never understood at the time why Dortmund signed Paul Lambert. 

 

In that case he was established player but what good clubs see is different. 

 

Lots of people focus on Hickey's control and composure. Less spoken about is his character. Still young he is focused and unaffected. Why he didn't need resting. 

totally agree, there is something special about the boy. The first time I saw him was the televised  league game at parkhead a couple weeks before last year's cup final and he was outstanding and has been ever since when I seen him play  (albeit on TV). Really hope he moves to Bayern.