SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[Guest ToqueJambo]

6 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Based on the legal advice Moynihan gave the SPFL on winding last season up, you will never get a N&V season because the legal risks would be massive for the SPFL & the clubs -  "it would be as though the season never happened"  - meaning the clubs would potentially have to repay sponsors & ST holders. 

 

What, even in a pandemic? But it's perfectly OK to cancel a a quarter of the season and the playoffs it seems..

 

Worth pointing out again and again:

 

A 14-10-10-10 season would have protected the pyramid, not seen any one unfairly relegated, seen everyone promoted including some bonus promotions. As contact football has started there even would have been time to have some quick play-offs to settle the final promotion places for absolute fairness. The likes of Brechin, Hamilton, etc wouldn't like the playoff idea as they expect to be able to vote for safety, but tough titties on them.

 

No 3 months of wrangling and infighting, no expensive court cases, no uncertainty, just MAYBE for SOME clubs a little less prize money (not comparable to the financial hit Hearts and PT are expected to take though) and a little more risk of relegation IF we reverted to the old league system (which we might not). 

Edited July 13, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[wavydavy]

6 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Not the same, straight 75% needed..

 

Yes as per this on STv Sport

 

The attached resolution, if passed, would give your board the authority to make decisions in relation to Season 2020/21, in the event that Covid-19 causes disruption to the season.”

ADVERT

 

Clubs have 28 days to decide on the resolution, with 75% of the clubs in the Premiership, Championship, and Leagues One and Two needed to back the move in order for it to pass.

[wavydavy]

8 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

What, even in a pandemic? But it's perfectly OK to cancel a a quarter of the season and the playoffs it seems..

 

Worth pointing out again and again:

 

A 14-10-10-10 season would have protected the pyramid, not seen any one unfairly relegated, seen everyone promoted including some bonus promotions. As contact football has started there even would have been time to have some quick play-offs to settle the final promotion places for absolute fairness. The likes of Brechin, Hamilton, etc wouldn't like the playoff idea as they expect to be able to vote for safety, but tough titties on them.

 

No 3 months of wrangling and infighting, no expensive court cases, no uncertainty, just MAYBE for SOME clubs a little less prize money and a little more risk of relegation IF we reverted to the old league system (which we might not). 

 

After reading the article again about Doncaster's letter to all the clubs I thought this extract was hilarious.

 

“Whilst there was a clamour for the SPFL Board to ‘show leadership’ and to make decisions to steer the SPFL through the crisis, the board were constrained by current SPFL Rules – which forced the board to seek approval from the members at various stages in the process.

[John Findlay]

41 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Yes, I know. People seem to think this will necessarily mean no promotion or relegation. No different risk if the clubs vote on it imo. 

Depends how many points in front one of the bigot brothers is.

[davemclaren]

Just now, John Findlay said:

Depends how many points in front one of the bigot brothers is.

I’m sure it doesn’t work like that... 

[Tommy Brown]

54 minutes ago, neilnunb said:

I see the joe_black twitter account is saying Thursday for the arbitration starting.

 

Excuse my ignorance.

Who is Joe Black?

[Nookie Bear]

8 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Yes as per this on STv Sport

 

The attached resolution, if passed, would give your board the authority to make decisions in relation to Season 2020/21, in the event that Covid-19 causes disruption to the season.”

ADVERT

 

Clubs have 28 days to decide on the resolution, with 75% of the clubs in the Premiership, Championship, and Leagues One and Two needed to back the move in order for it to pass.

The Board that has representation from a select band of clubs?

 

And so it begins again...

[Lone Striker]

13 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Based on the legal advice Moynihan gave the SPFL on winding last season up, you will never get a N&V season because the legal risks would be massive for the SPFL & the clubs -  "it would be as though the season never happened"  - meaning the clubs would potentially have to repay sponsors & ST holders. 

Look how things have turned out now though.... massive legal risks (us & Thistle) .... TV rebate claims. How could N&V be any worse ?  As for clubs HAVING to repay ST holders, simple enough to put in the T&C's  that no money refunds will be given..... but discounts on future ST's will be at discretion of the club.

[Lone Striker]

That quote from Moynihan is ridiculous - " it would as though the season never happened".     Would the clubs try to reclaim wages and bonuses paid to players ?   Extremely unlikely - Wishart would be all over that (rightly so).  It sounds like a convenient cop-out deliberately aimed at convincing Donkey & co not go down that road for reasons we are all aware of. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

8 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

Excuse my ignorance.

Who is Joe Black?

 

 

[colinmaroon]

13 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

After reading the article again about Doncaster's letter to all the clubs I thought this extract was hilarious.

 

“Whilst there was a clamour for the SPFL Board to ‘show leadership’ and to make decisions to steer the SPFL through the crisis, the board were constrained by current SPFL Rules – which forced the board to seek approval from the members at various stages in the process.

 

 

All part of the "Cummings" style ploy to sneak through full control for the SPFL Board, sorry, Llawell, for next season.

 

It means if football is stopped they can award 10 in a row and prevent promotion.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

The SD isn't going to be a bridge. Under the new structure both the manager and SD report directly to Budge.

I hadn't seen the reporting relationships and was responding to a suggestion that Ann needed a bridge between the football side and the board. I assumed in context of a discussion about an SD that it was being suggested  that  the SD would be that bridge. Glad that isn't the plan. 

 

[OTT]

11 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

Excuse my ignorance.

Who is Joe Black?

 

Who indeed. 

 

Its another of these anonymous football accounts that tweets gossip, rumours and general Scottish football news. He seems to be somewhat in the loop. 

 

Wouldn't take it as gospel but an interesting follow nonetheless, Rangers fan though. Kinda like the Agent Scotland account without the illusion of impartiality. 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

Strachan not dof at Dundee or something like that. 

Surely he's not working for Dundee and celtic TV.... 

 

Xx He's technical director at Dundee and a celtic TV pundit, Ffs. 

Strachan? Am I missing something?

 

Edit - yes, I was

Edited July 13, 2020 by Smithee

[John Findlay]

26 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I’m sure it doesn’t work like that... 

So am I 😉

[Nookie Bear]

2 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

Strachan not dof at Dundee or something like that. 

Surely he's not working for Dundee and celtic TV.... 

 

Xx He's technical director at Dundee and a celtic TV pundit, Ffs. 

Nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to Scottish football. 

[NANOJAMBO]

46 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Look how things have turned out now though.... massive legal risks (us & Thistle) .... TV rebate claims. How could N&V be any worse ?  As for clubs HAVING to repay ST holders, simple enough to put in the T&C's  that no money refunds will be given..... but discounts on future ST's will be at discretion of the club.

Yeah, simple. But how many clubs learned that lesson for this season ? 

How do the clubs get around the risk of having to repay sponsors ? Did they sit down and talk it out for this season ? 

And not least, the SPFL will never be able to N&V (even if the clubs could sort out their individual challenges) because the TV deal comes back to haunt them again (it has the same contract clauses as the previous deal). 

 

 

[1874robbo]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Exactly! Who in their right minds would look at the mess they created with their first resolution and every massive **** up and lie since, and think: “aye, let’s let these ****ers make the decisions for us, without any input from us”. 
 

I mean Jesus ****ing Christ!

As we have seen during this debacle very few clubs have done things that are logical so don’t bet against it.

[queensferryjambo]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

If top flight teams can vote to protect themselves from relegation then the competition is done. 

 

 

They already have. 

 

Not only did they vote to stop themselves being automatically relegated this season they voted to dodge any kind of play offs. 

 

Nice bit of business for quarter of the league teams.

[Lone Striker]

4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Yeah, simple. But how many clubs learned that lesson for this season ? 

How do the clubs get around the risk of having to repay sponsors ? Did they sit down and talk it out for this season ? 

And not least, the SPFL will never be able to N&V (even if the clubs could sort out their individual challenges) because the TV deal comes back to haunt them again (it has the same contract clauses as the previous deal). 

 

 

I see where you're coming from Nano ...... but surely (???) the biggest lesson from this episode is for Donkey (or his successor !) when he's negotiating future contracts to put in a clause so that everyone knows what  rebate entitlement there is and what its limited to. 

 

Another lesson from all this is that everyone has to be prepared to take a hit .... everyone..... clubs, players, SPFL, TV, sponsors, fans .... everyone.

 

 

[doctor jambo]

13 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Yeah, simple. But how many clubs learned that lesson for this season ? 

How do the clubs get around the risk of having to repay sponsors ? Did they sit down and talk it out for this season ? 

And not least, the SPFL will never be able to N&V (even if the clubs could sort out their individual challenges) because the TV deal comes back to haunt them again (it has the same contract clauses as the previous deal). 

 

 

The argument was horseshit- it is easy to prove that the tv company got what it paid for - they showed the games , received the sponsorship money from ads, and charged us all for sports channels.

they claim all the money back and theY would be obliged to refund all of us.

 

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

I see where you're coming from Nano ...... but surely (???) the biggest lesson from this episode is for Donkey (or his successor !) when he's negotiating future contracts to put in a clause so that everyone knows what  rebate entitlement there is and what its limited to. 

 

Another lesson from all this is that everyone has to be prepared to take a hit .... everyone..... clubs, players, SPFL, TV, sponsors, fans .... everyone.

 

 

The damage was already done re the new TV deal.

Whether clubs could or would be able to put "Covid clauses" in sponsorship deals / ST conditions of sale remains to be seen but I'd have thought it never occurred to them to do it /try it for this season. 

 

 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

So next season stops after 65% of games and we are stuck in the lower division? Careful what you wish for. 

If we (or whoever) was top of the Championship after 65% of games, would you seriously expect that we (or whoever) had earned the right to be promoted at that point ?   If we were 2nd - a couple of points off the top -  and our friends at Dundee were top ... how would you feel if they got promoted after 65% of games.   We'd be feeling everything Falkirk are feeling now.   

 

The whole point of having a transparent rule in place in advance is to avoid all the dodgy stuff that happened this year largely because the identity of the  "victims"  was known.    

 

 

[Lone Striker]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

The damage was already done re the new TV deal.

Whether clubs could or would be able to put "Covid clauses" in sponsorship deals / ST conditions of sale remains to be seen but I'd have thought it never occurred to them to do it /try it for this season. 

 

 

Yes... you're probably right.  Once bitten ... etc

[Hungry hippo]

Totally agree with Lone Striker that an adequate rule should be put in place.

 

Changing the rules to rely on board discretion just leads to more potential conflicts of interest and mistrust at a future date.

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

Was supposed to start tomorrow but delay upto a week apparently 

[manaliveits105]

If joe black is right and not kicking off till Thursday 16th - when Lord Clark has set aside days from 15 th looks like liberties still being taken with delays

[Forrest]

1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Based on the legal advice Moynihan gave the SPFL on winding last season up, you will never get a N&V season because the legal risks would be massive for the SPFL & the clubs -  "it would be as though the season never happened"  - meaning the clubs would potentially have to repay sponsors & ST holders. 

 

I fundamentally disagree with this bit. The sponsor is getting the exposure for 70% of the session, say, so they can have 30%, but IMO, there's no case for giving them a full refund. 

 

Any reason why seasons can't be played over whatever period is required to complete the fixtures, so eg we play this season over 2020-22?

[Birregrande]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

 

If you ever feel fatalistic about things, this is the feckin movie to show you you can delay some things, but not change them.. .  I'm now torn between this and Aliens [Cameron directors cut] for tonight's viewing.  Feck! @Fraggle your fault, that DC is sweet.

 

On topic - this is doing my nut in as I thought it started today, but it makes sense it's going to be Thursday for everyone to read the docs, docx, pdf etc....

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Birregrande

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

Why haven’t we interdicted start of season?

[Hungry hippo]

1 minute ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

Why haven’t we interdicted start of season?

 

Still can if necessary as far as I'm aware.

[Rods]

Doncaster and co up to their usual tricks of carry things on till the last possible point.

 

He want the leage started so when we win he can hide the huge monetary loss behind the new season starting.

[SectionDJambo]

2 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Exactly! Who in their right minds would look at the mess they created with their first resolution and every massive **** up and lie since, and think: “aye, let’s let these ****ers make the decisions for us, without any input from us”. 
 

I mean Jesus ****ing Christ!

It’s so crazy that some of these maniacs might vote for it.

After a wee, reassuring phone call from the league secretary, sorry, chief executive or the real power lurking in the shadows.

The SPFL board is bordering on Mafia style enforcement these days.

After their QC states, in court, that promotion and relegation is the “ meat and drink” of football, they now want powers that would allow them to waive these essentials, if their need arises during a curtailment of a season.

[SectionDJambo]

2 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

If you believe what Doncaster says then he thinks that the SPFL Organisation is the 42 member clubs. 

 

Looking at that comment you would think well that seem fair enough but then who is it that writes the rules and articles and sends out the letters for the clubs to vote on and then try and influence their decisions? The SPFL Board not the individual Clubs apart from one which holds all the power.

Makes you wonder why they didn’t use this discretion to include no relegation in the Good Friday resolution.

Maybe couldn’t care less, at that time, as long as Celtic got their asterisk title, and Hamilton and St Mirren weren’t bottom.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

51 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

If we (or whoever) was top of the Championship after 65% of games, would you seriously expect that we (or whoever) had earned the right to be promoted at that point ?   If we were 2nd - a couple of points off the top -  and our friends at Dundee were top ... how would you feel if they got promoted after 65% of games.   We'd be feeling everything Falkirk are feeling now.   

 

The whole point of having a transparent rule in place in advance is to avoid all the dodgy stuff that happened this year largely because the identity of the  "victims"  was known.    

 

 

What's so special about 65%, as opposed to, say, 79%? At least next season we'd all be playing knowing that the season might be curtailed after only, say, 65% of the season played, and budget accordingly, but that's a lot different than curtailing a season, completely out of the blue, but still relegating clubs who still had plenty of games to go to avoid relegation, while promoting clubs who hadn't yet won their leagues. Even if your reasoning is sound, it would still be very unreasonable and cruel to enforce some sort of double jeopardy on clubs like Hearts and Partick. At the same time, those clubs who'd been promoted would be handed a nice little reward of a reduced threat of relegation (along with all those clubs who voted to relegate us etc).

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Is Joe Black even well connected?

[south morocco]

3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Is Joe Black even well connected?

I think he makes half of it up. Just my opinion likes

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, south morocco said:

I think he makes half of it up. Just my opinion likes

He’s come to the right place then.

[ToadKiller Dog]

4 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Is Joe Black even well connected?

Don't know he was slightly ahead of the mainstream news with the Belgian league court news ,but that could just be the mainstream double checking before reporting 

[Beast Boy]

43 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

It’s so crazy that some of these maniacs might vote for it.

After a wee, reassuring phone call from the league secretary, sorry, chief executive or the real power lurking in the shadows.

The SPFL board is bordering on Mafia style enforcement these days.

After their QC states, in court, that promotion and relegation is the “ meat and drink” of football, they now want powers that would allow them to waive these essentials, if their need arises during a curtailment of a season.

This must be voted down, and we must somehow try and push for a change in how our league and association are governed.

[Beast Boy]

43 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Makes you wonder why they didn’t use this discretion to include no relegation in the Good Friday resolution.

Maybe couldn’t care less, at that time, as long as Celtic got their asterisk title, and Hamilton and St Mirren weren’t bottom.

It was all about Celtic’s title. Hearts being expelled was simply an amusing bonus for them.

[Boris]

3 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

It is to grant the SPFL Board the power to do various things in the event of another Covid 19 effect on the league games which includes no promotion or relegation.

 

https://news.stv.tv/sport/spfl-asks-clubs-to-grant-board-emergency-powers-for-next-season?noq

Surely if this is being discussed then it falls in our favour for our argument?

 

Being expelled with potentially no route immediately back if the same situation arises which expelled us?

 

It's Kafkaesque!

[Jambo Mac]

1 hour ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Was supposed to start tomorrow but delay upto a week apparently 

If this is true then as I said previously it’s obvious it’s simply stalling tactics by SPFL to avoid reinstatement and get closer to 1st August in the hope of a stronger case, not in the fact the fixtures have been announced but we have not started training and will not be Covid testing-not sure if there is a period required of testing negative prior to being allowed to play

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Was supposed to start tomorrow but delay upto a week apparently 

Surprised NOT

[manaliveits105]

Hopefully our legal team are all over this and keeping Lord Clarke appraised

[Riccarton3]

There must be some amount of money at stake for the level of skullduggery. Self preservation/continuity is everything.

[jambo-in-furness]

 

Surely the interdict or return to lord Clark and COS beckons.

[TyphoonJambo]

11 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Surprised NOT

Do we know this is true? 

[Hearts of Vladland]

41 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Is Joe Black even well connected?

He got the letter that was sent to SPFL clubs before the media iirc

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

1 hour ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Was supposed to start tomorrow but delay upto a week apparently 

Not doubting you, but where is this news coming from and is it confirmed?