SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[McCrae]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

If we win on this point is there anything to stop the SPFL forcing through another vote by the end of the week to correct it and send us down?

 

Yes.  It's not just the process of the vote which is up for challenge, it's the impact of the vote as well.

[graygo]

9 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

See if we do win and are compensated will every team therefore be entitled to compensation as well as technically they all could have improved their league positions and had a bigger financial reward as a result?

 

They're welcome to front up and raise a petition to the SFA arbitration same as we've done.

 

ps, read a similar post on weeteam.net last night, I really need to stop looking in there.

[luckydug]

8 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

It’s not - that is why Lord Clark wanted the arbitration panel to be from the legal profession and not ex football people.

Yep I know. 

I'm just joining in with the mood of apprehension. 

Let's look on the bright side no matter what happens our support is more united than for a long time. 

We can hold our heads high as a club and support. 

[Jamstomorrow]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

Right, so to confirm - the auld guy they've trotted out to spout his pish was once in charge of the Ferranti works football team and played one of the lead roles in the film Don't look now alongside Donald Sutherland.

The auld guy you are thinking of may be Keith Christie.  He retired as a solicitor a few years ago from the firm Cullen Kilshaw . . .  and never for a nanosecond ever imagined his name would appear in JKB!

[henryheart]

29 minutes ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

While, in truth, they are not all extremely thick, I do believe, though, that they are not as clever as they think they are, which is why Scottish football is in such a mess.

 

Because of their own shortcomings they are, or at least a large proportion of them are, unable to stand up to people they view as more powerful than them, and there's also leaders, like Doncaster, who are well versed in the art of making people think they know what they are talking about, taking advantage of the club boards' weaknesses in allowing themselves to be led rather than having to make informed decisions that might mean standing up for what is right. There is also the way our media tends to pick a side and ridicule those with the guts to take the opposite view, meaning some of the clubs' board members are afraid that negative publicity might harm their own businesses, or even their personal standing within the community.

 

It looks to me like Ann Budge, and one or two others, are bucking the trend, and the rest don't like it - perhaps because she is highlighting their inadequacies, and also their cowardice.

 

Anyone with any intelligence would not bet their last dollar on a 50/50 bet, and this is what it is according to the Raith chairman who has been speaking with his legal team and has much more inside knowledge than anyone on here. It is utter madness.  

[Shanks]

I dont think we will win but that was never what it was about for me anyway.  I just wanted us to cause the league as much pain as possible and hopefully cause a few clubs to die.  Let's be clear it is what clubs deserve and it's their own actions that have made this happen. 

 

If we are in the championship next year I hope we remember what has happened, if any Hearts fan can step foot in a stadium like starks park and hand over cash to raith rovers I will be shocked. 

[Beast Boy]

55 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I think a lot of people need to chill with what they think is going to happen here, you’re setting yourselves up for another big slap across the kisser imo. 
I have absolutely zero faith in any fairness being applied here. 
This country is absolutely rotten. 
 

Not me, mate. I’m fully aware that we could get **** all out of arbitration. That no longer matters to me now though. We fought our position, and didn’t just take a beasting quietly and gratefully. We fought, and that is all I demand of HMFC at any level, be it owners, players or supporters.

[The Roller]

1 minute ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Not me, mate. I’m fully aware that we could get **** all out of arbitration. That no longer matters to me now though. We fought our position, and didn’t just take a beasting quietly and gratefully. We fought, and that is all I demand of HMFC at any level, be it owners, players or supporters.

Spot on.

 

As soon as we announced we were fighting our position, I was at peace with what the final outcome may be.
 

Heart of Midlothian will emerge stronger from this, regardless of what arbitration concludes.

 

 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Not me, mate. I’m fully aware that we could get **** all out of arbitration. That no longer matters to me now though. We fought our position, and didn’t just take a beasting quietly and gratefully. We fought, and that is all I demand of HMFC at any level, be it owners, players or supporters.

That’s all fine man I agree with you. 
Some appear to be thinking we’re in a strong position. 
I just don’t see that. 

[Robdawg]

When will we next find out or get updated what’s going on?

[luckydug]

12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If we win on this point is there anything to stop the SPFL forcing through another vote by the end of the week to correct it and send us down?

We do have some friends. 

Remember almost a third of clubs voted for an Independent investigation. 

It might not pass and anyway if we win the SPFL board will be too busy firefighting to bother about new votes. 

They will be lucky to keep their jobs as the other clubs will turn on them. 

[Fire_At_The_Disco]

If we lose (are stiched-up) I reckon we will 100% lodge an appeal at CoS, 

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Yep I know. 

I'm just joining in with the mood of apprehension. 

Let's look on the bright side no matter what happens our support is more united than for a long time. 

We can hold our heads high as a club and support. 

Not only that, ****ing us over will never be seen as an easy option again 

[Deevers]

5 minutes ago, Shanks said:

I dont think we will win but that was never what it was about for me anyway.  I just wanted us to cause the league as much pain as possible and hopefully cause a few clubs to die.  Let's be clear it is what clubs deserve and it's their own actions that have made this happen. 

 

If we are in the championship next year I hope we remember what has happened, if any Hearts fan can step foot in a stadium like starks park and hand over cash to raith rovers I will be shocked. 

Well I don’t know about that.  It’s pretty clear that the SPFL acted outside their own rules leaving certain clubs libel for significant financial loss. The documents obtained will give a fair indication of all that’s gone on in particular the saga of the Dundee vote.  All that we ask is a fair hearing and a fair adjudication.  If we do get that I think we will get something out of the hearing.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

I think a lot of people need to chill with what they think is going to happen here, you’re setting yourselves up for another big slap across the kisser imo. 
I have absolutely zero faith in any fairness being applied here. 
This country is absolutely rotten. 
 

While I have absolutely no doubt that both the SPFL and SFA will be up to all the underhand tricks imaginable I do wonder how you know that those charged with conducting the arbitration will allow themselves to be coerced into assisting them to screw us over. I can't imagine Ann Budge will sit back and say nothing, nor will her Partick Thistle counterpart, if there's even the least indication of skullduggery, it just doesn't appear to be in their nature. I don't know if Lord Clark will be keeping a close eye on the proceedings, but if he is, then the panel members may well feel it best not to bow to any pressure from those under whose auspices the arbitration is being held, even if they were inclined to.

 

The only SFA tribunal that most of us have had any close interest in, and insight to, was the LNS tribunal into the Rangers cheating. There can be little doubt of the skullduggery involved in that procedure and the gerrymandered result, but that result came about because both sides were looking for the same result, and one side 'losing' was never on the cards. That is definitely not the case here, with both sides at loggerheads, and one side well aware of the other's penchant for a lack of fairness.

 

I'm not saying we will definitely get a fair hearing, but I don't know of anything that's going on that indicates the make up of the tribunal, itself, will be unfair, or that they'll bow to SFA/SPFL pressure.

[Thought Police]

1 minute ago, Tambo_The_Jambo said:

If we lose (are stiched-up) I reckon we will 100% lodge an appeal at CoS, 

On what grounds?

 

Could only appeal if there’s a misapplication of the law. Can’t just appeal if we don’t like the result.

[graygo]

6 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Not me, mate. I’m fully aware that we could get **** all out of arbitration. That no longer matters to me now though. We fought our position, and didn’t just take a beasting quietly and gratefully. We fought, and that is all I demand of HMFC at any level, be it owners, players or supporters.

 

That seems to be the thoughts of the majority, there's a small number that think it's in the bag and another small number who think we'll get screwed over.

It's pre-match nerves similar to the week leading up to a cup final that doesn't involve playing Hibs. 

[bigsuperslim1874]

5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s all fine man I agree with you. 
Some appear to be thinking we’re in a strong position. 
I just don’t see that. 

I think the strong position part is due to Lord Clark’s comments which were weighted on our side by a fair bit. There is little doubt if he COULD have taken the case he would.

 

I think we have a strong case but nothing is guaranteed. As others have said - I’m pleased we at least fought our corner.

Edited July 13, 2020 by bigsuperslim1874

[Hagar the Horrible]

5 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Not me, mate. I’m fully aware that we could get **** all out of arbitration. That no longer matters to me now though. We fought our position, and didn’t just take a beasting quietly and gratefully. We fought, and that is all I demand of HMFC at any level, be it owners, players or supporters.

We have already won, we stood our ground.  It will be very hard for them all in  future to muster up any energy in wanting to fight us again.  I am beyond proud of my club, Even if we totaly lose the fight we at worst are going to get a broken nose, but at least one of them has lost an eye?

[Dazo]

26 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

See if we do win and are compensated will every team therefore be entitled to compensation as well as technically they all could have improved their league positions and had a bigger financial reward as a result?

Every team that voted in favour of the resolution won’t have a claim for anything I would have though. Those that voted against could certainly claim but none of them are being expelled from their current division so not sure how much the hassle would be worth compared to us. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

My thoughts this morning on being awarded some kind of compensation.  The £8m we are asking for IS reasonable.  Our turnover last year was reported to be in excess of £15m.  Aberdeen announced that by playing Sevco BCD they are going to lose £400k.  We will lose £500k by NOT playing Hamilton.  They have expelled us from the league, into a league with restricted trade; we will lose 5 home games, and possibly 6.  That’s approx. £3m in fewer games, plus all TV revenue and sponsorship for the whole season.  I think we should be looking at £10m compensation,  £8m is being kind.

[Fire_At_The_Disco]

5 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

On what grounds?

 

Could only appeal if there’s a misapplication of the law. Can’t just appeal if we don’t like the result.

There will be hence my stitch up quote. 

[David McCaig]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If we win on this point is there anything to stop the SPFL forcing through another vote by the end of the week to correct it and send us down?

Not if the resolution itself is considered free of prejudice.

[graygo]

5 minutes ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

While I have absolutely no doubt that both the SPFL and SFA will be up to all the underhand tricks imaginable I do wonder how you know that those charged with conducting the arbitration will allow themselves to be coerced into assisting them to screw us over. I can't imagine Ann Budge will sit back and say nothing, nor will her Partick Thistle counterpart, if there's even the least indication of skullduggery, it just doesn't appear to be in their nature. I don't know if Lord Clark will be keeping a close eye on the proceedings, but if he is, then the panel members may well feel it best not to bow to any pressure from those under whose auspices the arbitration is being held, even if they were inclined to.

 

The only SFA tribunal that most of us have had any close interest in, and insight to, was the LNS tribunal into the Rangers cheating. There can be little doubt of the skullduggery involved in that procedure and the gerrymandered result, but that result came about because both sides were looking for the same result, and one side 'losing' was never on the cards. That is definitely not the case here, with both sides at loggerheads, and one side well aware of the other's penchant for a lack of fairness.

 

I'm not saying we will definitely get a fair hearing, but I don't know of anything that's going on that indicates the make up of the tribunal, itself, will be unfair, or that they'll bow to SFA/SPFL pressure.

 

Lord Nimmo Smith conducted a commission, a bit different from an arbitration hearing.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, Hagar the Horrible said:

My thoughts this morning on being awarded some kind of compensation.  The £8m we are asking for IS reasonable.  Our turnover last year was reported to be in excess of £15m.  Aberdeen announced that by playing Sevco BCD they are going to lose £400k.  We will lose £500k by NOT playing Hamilton.  They have expelled us from the league, into a league with restricted trade; we will lose 5 home games, and possibly 6.  That’s approx. £3m in fewer games, plus all TV revenue and sponsorship for the whole season.  I think we should be looking at £10m compensation,  £8m is being kind.

 

I agree.

 

However, I'm more concerned about the winning as opposed to any award we get.

[Last Laff]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I think a lot of people need to chill with what they think is going to happen here, you’re setting yourselves up for another big slap across the kisser imo. 
I have absolutely zero faith in any fairness being applied here. 
This country is absolutely rotten. 
 

Totally.  The past few months should have taught us all this. 

[Jim Panzee]

On 12/07/2020 at 02:29, August Landmesser said:

No you don't.

 

No it wouldn't.

dunno mate. if every single poster agreed with every single post.....?  personally I enjoy certain 'contrary' posters being dismantled on here (we all know who they are:) )

[Last Laff]

8 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

We have already won, we stood our ground.  It will be very hard for them all in  future to muster up any energy in wanting to fight us again.  I am beyond proud of my club, Even if we totaly lose the fight we at worst are going to get a broken nose, but at least one of them has lost an eye?

I agree with the sentiment but if we totally lose it’s a bit more than getting a broken nose with the costs of being in the Championship and legal bills.  What will be will be though and need to take a step back and wait for a decision. 

[RENE]

9 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

On what grounds?

 

Could only appeal if there’s a misapplication of the law. Can’t just appeal if we don’t like the result.

Would an appeal to CoS not be a sporting issue.  We are fighting a legal issue at the moment.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

6 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

I think the SPFL are confident that they have this case in the bag so any talk of compensation is moot.

Out of interest, can you tell us what it is that the SPFL have said, at any time, that gives cause to make you think they are confident that they have the case in the bag? I must have missed the statements that were any more than the bog standard responses that anyone would be expected to make in the circumstances, while fighting tooth and nail to not have to produce evidence of a kind a confident defence would want to produce.

 

They may well win, the law often confounds, but those doubting our chances have no more insight to our chances in the tribunal than those who might appear to be overconfident.

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

I agree with the sentiment but if we totally lose it’s a bit more than getting a broken nose with the costs of being in the Championship and legal bills.  What will be will be though and need to take a step back and wait for a decision. 

Legal bills and seeing us safely through the next 5 years has already been covered so for now I think they are low down the concerns list. 

[David McCaig]

9 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

On what grounds?

 

Could only appeal if there’s a misapplication of the law. Can’t just appeal if we don’t like the result.

True... But the elephant in the room is that Dundee voted no.  Any attempt by the tribunal to suggest otherwise would be clearly into the territory of an appeal based on an error in law.  An appeal which would almost inevitably delay the start of next season and put the case firmly in the public domain. Is that  really what the SPFL want?

 

Once they accept the resolution failed reinstatement is the only option.

[Last Laff]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Legal bills and seeing us safely through the next 5 years has already been covered so for now I think they are low down the concerns list. 

👍

Being in the league below unfairly as feck isn’t a bloody nose then financially secure or not.  

[Allowayjambo1874]

I believe that the arbitration panel will be conducted properly the only downside is that they will act in good faith by taking everyone at their word.

 

I don’t trust the SPFL in any shape or form, telephone conversations are not taped so what two individuals tell us the discussion was about will be taken at face value. I also don’t think for one minute the SPFL will volunteer all the subject matter information but will only hand over what Hearts ask for. Would it surprise anyone if further down the line (when this is over) conversations are discovered to have gone on via another method, for example Facebook messenger, but were not declared to arbitration panel because we hadn’t specifically asked for them?

 

Like many I am not confident in the outcome but I am glad our club has taken this the whole way.

[Central Belt 1874]

7 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

True... But the elephant in the room is that Dundee voted no.  Any attempt by the tribunal to suggest otherwise would be clearly into the territory of an appeal based on an error in law.  An appeal which would almost inevitably delay the start of next season and put the case firmly in the public domain. Is that  really what the SPFL want?

 

Once they accept the resolution failed reinstatement is the only option.

 

I agree. I cant see any other way this is going. If it does go against us, it will very interesting to read the reasoning.

[graygo]

7 minutes ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

Out of interest, can you tell us what it is that the SPFL have said, at any time, that gives cause to make you think they are confident that they have the case in the bag? I must have missed the statements that were any more than the bog standard responses that anyone would be expected to make in the circumstances, while fighting tooth and nail to not have to produce evidence of a kind a confident defence would want to produce.

 

They may well win, the law often confounds, but those doubting our chances have no more insight to our chances in the tribunal than those who might appear to be overconfident.

 

No quotes from them, that's why I said "I think". However my thoughts are that the fact they are proceeding with this, risking money that belongs to the clubs unlike Hearts/PT, shows that they are confident. Or stupid.

For the record, I'm fairly confident we will win. Or maybe I'm stupid.

 

[Beast Boy]

21 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

We have already won, we stood our ground.  It will be very hard for them all in  future to muster up any energy in wanting to fight us again.  I am beyond proud of my club, Even if we totaly lose the fight we at worst are going to get a broken nose, but at least one of them has lost an eye?

 

Hear hear. Could not be more proud of HMFC. Bonus if arbitration goes our way.

[manaliveits105]

5 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

👍

Being in the league below unfairly as feck isn’t a bloody nose then financially secure or not.  

reeks

[stuart500]

9 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Not if the resolution itself is considered free of prejudice.

I've been wondering if they have such a resolution already drafted and waiting to go if necessary.

 

This would be by definition a new proposal to the one being judged for fairness at the tribunal.

 

I dont think therefore we could be prevented from another legal challenge on the grounds of prejudice. Our potential losses will have been highlighted in this case so spiteful clubs would know the harm they would be doing by voting to relegate us. Round and round we go.

 

We need to hope the tribunal find both prejudice in the initial vote and the Dundee vote was illegal as this would make it harder to push through any amended vote.

 

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Just now, henryheart said:

 

Anyone with any intelligence would not bet their last dollar on a 50/50 bet, and this is what it is according to the Raith chairman who has been speaking with his legal team and has much more inside knowledge than anyone on here. It is utter madness.  

That's kind of what I mean. They seem happier to risk losing their clubs than taking the time to think of the best course to take and then to act accordingly, especially if that best course might see them in conflict with the clubs and people they appear to fear.

 

 

[Jim Panzee]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I think a lot of people need to chill with what they think is going to happen here, you’re setting yourselves up for another big slap across the kisser imo. 
I have absolutely zero faith in any fairness being applied here. 
This country is absolutely rotten. 
 

I also agree. Was it agentjambo who wrote that almost every step of the way we've not had the outcome we've wanted. Feel like some kind of curve ball will be thrown and we'll be in the championship next season with a pittance of compo....to be paid in £2 instalments for the next 25 years.

 

at least we fought our corner.

[Last Laff]

6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

reeks

**** off 👍

[Hagar the Horrible]

As I just brought up Aberdeen and we have been marvelling at the positive spin the media darlings at Hibs have justifiably strengthened their first team.   And poor Dundee?

 

Aberdeen:  Shipping £1m per month,  and greeting there are going to lose another £400k by playing Rangers BCD.  They are already in debt by £10m, their turnover is similar to ours but are clearly spending way too much?

 

Hibs: Just spent £250k  after pressing the backspace key on all undercard teams , And highlighted Column J (non-playing staff)  delete column…Its that cold.  Can you now imagine the pressure on those players that their contracts has been paid for by 70 hardworking people, and your team members by taking pay cuts and deferred wages,  They better not be duds.

 

Celtic:  Huge war chest been eaten into in status?  But there is a test case that they will have to pay significant compensation if they lose, and with 20 others awaiting the outcome, plus the potential #metoo?

 

Dundee:  Already in a mess, and they are not even off furlough yet, Will they even make it to the season opener?

 

Everybody else:  Deferred wages and coming off furlough.  And a potential compensation bill from us?  Lets be clear 100% compensation of £10m is £250k per club.  even 10% is £25k per club, that’s Albion Rovers entire income?  How many clubs are lying about their ability to play out the season, They are supposed to guarantee that.

[doctor jambo]

18 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

True... But the elephant in the room is that Dundee voted no.  Any attempt by the tribunal to suggest otherwise would be clearly into the territory of an appeal based on an error in law.  An appeal which would almost inevitably delay the start of next season and put the case firmly in the public domain. Is that  really what the SPFL want?

 

Once they accept the resolution failed reinstatement is the only option.

It will hinge on this I think, they must be confident that Dundee were allowed to change their vote- hence no illegality.

and that they did so with no pressure applied.

THink that will be the nitty gritty

[jamboinglasgow]

26 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

We have already won, we stood our ground.  It will be very hard for them all in  future to muster up any energy in wanting to fight us again.  I am beyond proud of my club, Even if we totaly lose the fight we at worst are going to get a broken nose, but at least one of them has lost an eye?

 

I agree, the club has fought this as hard as possible when some fans thought they would not. We have kicked up hell to show that what was done is not right. 

 

I do want this week to find a conclusion to all this. But whatever happens from Arbitration, I want the club to not forgive or forget what clubs did. That they went for everyone for themselves rather than working together. That they all talked about how they were sympathetic to the relegated teams but did not lift a finger to do anything. That some clubs wanted us down so they can make money from us. I want everyone team who wronged us to face the consequences of their actions and that starts on the pitch. I want players fired up to not just win but humiliate these clubs. The fans of these clubs will want to taunt us, I want them to dread playing us as they know their team will get destroyed and see us celebrating.

[Allowayjambo1874]

20 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

True... But the elephant in the room is that Dundee voted no.  Any attempt by the tribunal to suggest otherwise would be clearly into the territory of an appeal based on an error in law.  An appeal which would almost inevitably delay the start of next season and put the case firmly in the public domain. Is that  really what the SPFL want?

 

Once they accept the resolution failed reinstatement is the only option.

Forgive me if this is a silly question but you know this stuff a lot better than I do! With regards to the Dundee vote. Can the ruling from the panel be that the SPFL broke their own procedures (by announcing the result) but complied with the rules (28 days to change vote)

[parwj]

The daily ranger states it all starts Wednesday ?

[doctor jambo]

3 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said:

Forgive me if this is a silly question but you know this stuff a lot better than I do! With regards to the Dundee vote. Can the ruling from the panel be that the SPFL broke their own procedures (by announcing the result) but complied with the rules (28 days to change vote)

THink there will be lots of ackowledgement that their "rules" are too vague, not fit for purpose, but that there was no illegality.

"it was badly thought out and badly worded, but we complied with the law"

[August Landmesser]

31 minutes ago, Jim Panzee said:

dunno mate. if every single poster agreed with every single post.....?  personally I enjoy certain 'contrary' posters being dismantled on here (we all know who they are:) )

I was being facetious - 2.30am and full of wine and feeling ever so witty and pleased with myself! I enjoy the different opinions on here too - makes for an entertaining time of it 

[graygo]

3 minutes ago, parwj said:

The daily ranger states it all starts Wednesday ?

 

The very date that Lord Clark had set aside?

Coincidence?