SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[AndrewB]

11 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

I think we are hoping for arbitration to open up all the dirty deeds, BUT I think Calpol 3 won't get the funds and they will withdraw leaving us the winner by default. The SPFL can say they would have won had the Calpol 3 had the money to contest, so no one won and Hearts / Partick are still the bad boys.

We may well get what we want but the bad feeling won't go away and we need to treat the rest of the league ( with a few exceptions ) with disdain.

Surely the SPFL would have to withdraw also?

[hughesie27]

8 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Sure some Hearts Supporters walked from fife to Tynecaste to raise money for save our Hearts

 

[henryheart]

1 hour ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

As I said earlier I think Doncaster has them fooled, he is always on about the clubs run things and he has nothing to do with this as it's the clubs who voted Etc. By using these clubs Doncaster can stay at arm's length. TBF the other clubs should also be involved under this scenario as it's the whole league who will pay when we win.

 

Technically he is correct. The Board and member clubs have the vote and final say on everything, except where they have delegated responsibility to him. The decision on this one was made by the clubs, but it is a key part of his role to provide advice, guidance and a recommendation on what they should do. I would love to know what his recommendations have been throughout this process, but nobody seems to have asked him? This will no doubt come out when the 3 wise men examine the case. Furthermore, we must understand that as an employee he cannot publicly criticise his employer, so it may be that he is churning inside wishing to reveal his true opinion but simply cannot? None of us know this answer. 

 

As matters stand, if Hearts/Partick win he is on very solid ground unless the clubs has followed his recommendations (and they may not have), he has been found not to have followed correct procedure and or worse of all, he has provided members with incorrect information that he knew to be false.  

 

Time will tell.   

[troy]

38 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

No but all the documentation we have requested to see should be there by now, and we would want to go over it, and the arbitrators will need to see that to and read up on our arguement, and you can see how well prepped Lord Clark was, he was able to pick up spilled wine with a glass?

 

At worst we will be reviewing the documentation to se if our case is now stronger?  The Calpol 3 will be hoping nothing to see, but as they have not so far raised a penny to fight this, and time is not on their side?  We would have been half way there by now.

 

This can all turn sour, we have to expect that.  It might just be arrogance but Doncaster and Blair have not got an alternative fixture list ready if we are re-instated, they just kept repeating the party line, "we will deal with it if we have to?"

 

Its going to be a long stomach churning wait

Cheers ,I just think we only have 4 working days left before the 15th ,your right stomach churning it is 👍

[Hungry hippo]

24 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

I’d be preparing my case against the SPFL for damages should they lose.

 

or coming up with a reconstruction proposal 😆 which 100% will pass if relegation is overturned or we win £8m in damages

 

 

 

I'm not convinced reconstruction would pass a vote if arbitration ruled we were to remain in Premiership and Dundee Utd in Championship.

 

United would then have all the issues we had meeting with the high voting threshold and self interest would remain for those not impacted.

 

In any case  I think compensation is far more likely.

[David McCaig]

2 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

I'm not convinced reconstruction would pass a vote if arbitration ruled we were to remain in Premiership and Dundee Utd in Championship.

 

United would then have all the issues we had meeting with the high voting threshold and self interest would remain for those not impacted.

 

In any case  I think compensation is far more likely.

I don’t think the decision as to whether you do or don’t respect a legal ruling is optional!!

 

Edit: sorry read your post wrong. In the event of us being reinstated, the other SPFL clubs would simply wash their hands of Dundee United.

Edited July 8, 2020 by David McCaig

[TyphoonJambo]

1 hour ago, Trained One said:

 

 

Thank God I joined the Army.  You RAF and Navy types sound like you had fun😅

Hey, dont rope me in with those rum bum and backy boys. 

Us RAF, we dont dig in, we check in😁

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Thank god I joined a debating society, I was going to join the armed forces but was talked out of it😉

 

I appreciate this post !

[BelgeJambo]

2 minutes ago, TypoonJambo said:

Hey, dont rope me in with those rum bum and backy boys. 

Us RAF, we dont dig in, we check in😁

The Navy Navigate by the Stars, the Army sleep under the Stars and the RAF book hotels by the stars 😃

[millerjames398]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

At home Lawwell calls himself ZED

😆With "counting flowers on the wall" played on a loop😂🇱🇻

[DETTY29]

25 minutes ago, Jambo314 said:

If the league requires to be put back from starting on Aug 1st it will be according to Doncaster ...

 

Should Hearts and Partick win, the current scheduled Premiership starts date of 1 August could be put back after the fixtures were published this morning, and Doncaster accepted that it’s an outcome they’d just have to deal with.

“We’re planning for a first of August start,” he said. “It’s absolutely imperative that that’s the earliest date we’re allowed to get competitive games back underway. Clearly we’ll deal with whatever eventuality arises.

So we will ask for 4 weeks to prepare, or interdict or seek damages?

[Weebroon98]

4 minutes ago, TypoonJambo said:

Hey, dont rope me in with those rum bum and backy boys. 

Us RAF, we dont dig in, we check in😁

Army sleep under the stars

Navy navigate by the stars

RAF rate the their hotels by stars

😉

 

[Spellczech]

29 minutes ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

Ok, but what experience do you have of quantification of damages in court cases? I doubt they just use a cashflow statement... Hearts turnover grew £3m last year alone.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Spellczech

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

5 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Ok, but what experience do you have of quantification of damages in court cases? I doubt they just use a cashflow statement... Hearts turnover grew £3m last year alone.

What I don’t understand is why we would get any compensation if arbitration rules that the SPFL were entitled to demote us. If we are awarded compensation, isn’t that an admission that the process was flawed - so shouldn’t we get reinstated instead?

[SectionDJambo]

24 minutes ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

Any deductions made from our compensation, due to a delay in paying spectators being able to attend any division, would be fair enough. I really don't think Hearts would expect anything else. But the broadcasting revenue loss part of the claim, from being in a lower league, would not be affected.

There are many factors to our claim, not just the cash from paying punters. Some of those factors probably aren't really known for sure yet. 

Again, the simplest solution for every club is reconstruction, so that no club suffers any more than it has to, due to this shutdown. No compensation calculations and predictions necessary. Plain to see, for those who want to see.

[1874robbo]

36 minutes ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

And what if a decision is made that there’ll be no promotion or relegation this season due to it only being a 27 game league.

[Randy Marsh]

Just now, 1874robbo said:

And what if a decision is made that there’ll be no promotion or relegation this season due to it only being a 27 game league.

I know it's the SPFL we are taking about but they surely couldn't do that.  Dundee United were promoted after 28 games.  

[Gmcjambo]

5 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

What I don’t understand is why we would get any compensation if arbitration rules that the SPFL were entitled to demote us. If we are awarded compensation, isn’t that an admission that the process was flawed - so shouldn’t we get reinstated instead?

Not sure.  They might agree wrong doing but decide that the most appropriate remedy is compensation rather than say delaying the start of the SPFL for a month whilst we get fit, impact on Champions League involvement etc.  They might feel that the financial impacts on the game are disproportionate and unreasonable vs compensation?  I hope not but I do worry that, in a practical sense,  this is likely going to come down to compensation. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Gmcjambo

[stevie1874]

38 minutes ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

If a second wave hits then the league were in might not even start so that might be factored in?

[rambothejambo]

14 minutes ago, TypoonJambo said:

Hey, dont rope me in with those rum bum and backy boys. 

Us RAF, we dont dig in, we check in😁

 

Easy tiger! Unforunately the Royal Marines are part of the Navy, so I take offence at that insult  Seriously they are feckin useless, only good for getting us guys to where we need to go! As for the RAF, it's just not fair that they get treated like adults!

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, Gmcjambo said:

Not sure.  They might agree wrong doing but decide that the most appropriate remedy is compensation rather than say delaying the start of the SPFL for a month whilst we get fit, impact on Champions League involvement etc.  They might feel that the financial impacts on the game are disproportionate and unreasonable vs compensation?  I hope note but I do worry that, in a practical sense,  this is likely going to come down to compensation. 

That might be right. Timescale before the start of the season is very tight 

[John Findlay]

15 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

The Navy Navigate by the Stars, the Army sleep under the Stars and the RAF book hotels by the stars 😃

Crabfats never go below four stars hotel wise🤣

[Spellczech]

10 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

What I don’t understand is why we would get any compensation if arbitration rules that the SPFL were entitled to demote us. If we are awarded compensation, isn’t that an admission that the process was flawed - so shouldn’t we get reinstated instead?

I think compo is a fallback position - it is a civil case after all, so money is the usual outcome of civil cases - I am not close enough to the detail of the complaint though. I read enough legal blether at uni, I try to avoid it now!

Edited July 8, 2020 by Spellczech

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

25 minutes ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

If buts and maybes, where do you pluck 2 million max from and second waves 

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

13 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

So we will ask for 4 weeks to prepare, or interdict or seek damages?

I suspect that, just like Celtic and their money spinning friendlies, Hearts will seek, and be given, a couple of weeks (maybe more, maybe less) off to prepare for their first match. As ever, even in this statement that kind of acknowledges it might go our way, Doncaster is trying to paint Hearts as the big bad bullies spoiling it (delaying the start of the season) for everybody else.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

8 minutes ago, Gmcjambo said:

Not sure.  They might agree wrong doing but decide that the most appropriate remedy is compensation rather than say delaying the start of the SPFL for a month whilst we get fit, impact on Champions League involvement etc.  They might feel that the financial impacts on the game are disproportionate and unreasonable vs compensation?  I hope not but I do worry that, in a practical sense,  this is likely going to come down to compensation. 

I think Doncasters suggestion that Hearts might cause a delay in the start of the season is just more propaganda. There is absolutely no reason why Hearts can't have a delayed start while the rest play as scheduled. It would leave Hearts with their own fixture problem but I'm sure we'd settle for that rather than not be reinstated.

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

Must be very soon as the SPFL assured the judge that it could be done very quickly

 

The did didn't they. Quickly is how I seem to remember it being phrased when asked. However as Lord Clark said he had put aside three days next week in the CoS to hear the case should there be delays. I've been wondering when the tipping point is where his Lordship just says okay folks you have had enough time to get the arbitration started and you have failed. Please be back in my court next week thank you very much. 

[Gizmo]

20 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

I know it's the SPFL we are taking about but they surely couldn't do that.  Dundee United were promoted after 28 games.  

There were a few clubs who used the "not now" line to reconstruction, with that mofo from Ross County saying "next season". This idea of no promotion / relegation due to the disparate lengths of the respective divisions didn't come out of nowhere. Ross Country don't just want one get-out-of-jail-free card it seems.

For a man of faith, MacGregor didn't just ignore the stricken traveller lying on the side of the Jerusalem to Jericho road, he went back and finished him off. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Gizmo

[manaliveits105]

If we won reinstatement and they mumbled about too late to change we must head straight back to COS for enforcement - no chance of aye we will just take the money to save you all hassle

[manaliveits105]

1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

There were a few clubs who used the "not now" line to reconstruction, with that mofo from Ross County saying "next season". This idea of no promotion / relegation due to the disparate lengths of the respective divisions didn't come out of nowhere. Ross Country don't just want one get-out-of-jail-free card it seems.

For a man of faith, MacGregor didn't just ignore the stricken traveller lying on the side of the Jerusalem to Jericho, he went back and finished him off. 

after insulting and pissing on them 

we will have revenge on that man

[His name is]

58 minutes ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

I think the loss of TV revenue will be more than £2m alone.

 

The difference in league prize money for bottom of premiership and top of championship is £600k.

 

Premiership clubs received about £400k UEFA solidarity payments last year.

 

That's before factoring in actual compensation for damages

 

We probably won't get £8m but it'll be more than £2m, if we win of course.

 

 

[Gulf Jambo]

1 hour ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

 

That is of no concern to the court. They award damages based on the merit of the case, not on the state of the league. 

 

And remember, the 8 million estimate has already been called conservative by a couple of other lawyers. 

 

 

If the league is unable to pay, or if it would destroy half the clubs etc. Am I right in saying that we could make a deal with the SPFL where we waive the compo (or some of it) in return for reinstatement? 

If a 2nd wave does hit then no way clubs can afford to pay

[David Black]

It may be wishful thinking on my part, but over the last few days I am starting to think we might come out of this better than we thought a week or so back. When you look between the lines, we have the DU,RR,CR council making an erse of himself trying to avoid the documents being handed over, we have Petrie suddenly standing down for "health reasons" , we then have Burrows declaring he is not standing for re-election this month and now we have Doncaster suggesting the season would have to be delayed if we win. That is where an interdict would come into play on our part to enable us to have the same pre-season as the other clubs. Doncaster is not waffling regarding this, a delay in those circumstances is more than feasible. I think they are not as confident as they once were.

Edited July 8, 2020 by David Black

[Hagar the Horrible]

Just for avoidance of doubt. 1st prize is we get reinstated, 2nd Prize is compensation.

If the Calpol 3 contests it, here are the outcomes:

1.       We win re-instatement, The Calpol 3 pay for that privilege by all legal fees,  £300k No calpol 3

2.       We win compensation to the max, The Calpol 3 pay the legal fees, and 40 clubs have to find £250k each, 4 clubs left in the league!  That’s a whopping £350k per Calp?

3.       We win 50% compensation,  The Calpol 3 pay the legal fees, and 40 clubs have to find £125k each, 10 clubs left in the league!,  

4.       We win 20% compensation,  The Calpol 3 pay the legal fees, and 40 clubs have to find £50k each, 20 clubs left in the league?

5.       We lose outright we lose, we play Championship football

If the Calpol 3 Don’t contest it here are the outcomes:

1.       We win re-instatement, all clubs pay for that  privilege by all legal fees,  £8k each

2.       We win compensation to the max, 40 clubs have to find £257k each, 4 clubs left in the league!,  

3.       We win 50% compensation,  40 clubs have to find £132k each, 10 clubs left in the league!,  

4.       We win 20% compensation,  40 clubs have to find £57k each, 20 clubs left in the league?

5.       We lose outright can’t happen, its uncontested.

For clarity, 1st prize is the best option for us and the league, 2nd Prize is ruinous but the courts won’t care, emotion is out of it, it’s just business, we have to go with the cost that’s best for us, and we have to ensure that it covers 2 seasons, as the league will vote to keep us out, We need that insurance policy.  The Calpol 3 have to win outright, or its just Cove the Calpol 1.  Its down to the clubs to keep themselves afloat, they had the chance for reconstruction what did they think would happen , and the courts cant go for what might happen, they will apply the letter of the law

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

 

I fail to see what an unlikely 2nd wave has to do with compensation. Any money due to us will be paid out of TV money not gate money. 

[Gmcjambo]

8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

The did didn't they. Quickly is how I seem to remember it being phrased when asked. However as Lord Clark said he had put aside three days next week in the CoS to hear the case should there be delays. I've been wondering when the tipping point is where his Lordship just says okay folks you have had enough time to get the arbitration started and you have failed. Please be back in my court next week thank you very much. 

I think that Lord Clark is wise to the potential delays and issues which is why he was so clear in keeping time at the CoS for this.   Possibly intended as a message to the SPFL and respondents and with the uncertainty over whether the respondents decide to fund this it does seem to be a possibility. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, Gmcjambo said:

I think that Lord Clark is wise to the potential delays and issues which is why he was so clear in keeping time at the CoS for this.   Possibly intended as a message to the SPFL and respondents and with the uncertainty over whether the respondents decide to fund this it does seem to be a possibility. 

 

Agreed but at what point does he say time's up and move it to the Cos?

[Gmcjambo]

3 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Agreed but at what point does he say time's up and move it to the Cos?

I'm no expert but would have thought he won't be doing anything unless specially asked.   Would it not be up to our QC to refer to him stating our concerns and then gets involved from there, either with an ultimatum or by taking it back? 

[I.T.K]

5 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Agreed but at what point does he say time's up and move it to the Cos?

 

And what time would an interdict be needed.

 

 

 

 

[wavydavy]

20 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I fail to see what an unlikely 2nd wave has to do with compensation. Any money due to us will be paid out of TV money not gate money. 

 

 

Why do you think a 2nd wave is unlikely? considering what is going on in England and elsewhere in the world.

[TyphoonJambo]

52 minutes ago, rambothejambo said:

 

Easy tiger! Unforunately the Royal Marines are part of the Navy, so I take offence at that insult  Seriously they are feckin useless, only good for getting us guys to where we need to go! As for the RAF, it's just not fair that they get treated like adults!

😁 😁 To b fair, i went through language training with some marine instructors and SBS guys, top blokes. 

[tynietigers]

23 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I fail to see what an unlikely 2nd wave has to do with compensation. Any money due to us will be paid out of TV money not gate money. 

I agree I am saying if no fans are coming in anywhere in Scotland how can we claim for something that we couldn’t make money on no matter what league we are in 🤔

[Last Laff]

26 minutes ago, Gulf Jambo said:

 

That is of no concern to the court. They award damages based on the merit of the case, not on the state of the league. 

 

And remember, the 8 million estimate has already been called conservative by a couple of other lawyers. 

 

 

If the league is unable to pay, or if it would destroy half the clubs etc. Am I right in saying that we could make a deal with the SPFL where we waive the compo (or some of it) in return for reinstatement? 

If a 2nd wave does hit then no way clubs can afford to pay

Damages would be estimated income of last year against the coming year. It will of course take into consideration there’s also going to be no fans in any of the leagues as to how the estimated income figure is reached.  What lawyers called the claim of £8 conservative? Leslie Deans?   why is there never any middle ground anywhere in this case on here at times? 

[tynietigers]

28 minutes ago, Gulf Jambo said:

 

That is of no concern to the court. They award damages based on the merit of the case, not on the state of the league. 

 

And remember, the 8 million estimate has already been called conservative by a couple of other lawyers. 

 

 

If the league is unable to pay, or if it would destroy half the clubs etc. Am I right in saying that we could make a deal with the SPFL where we waive the compo (or some of it) in return for reinstatement? 

If a 2nd wave does hit then no way clubs can afford to pay

But for you to get compo you have to prove losses and if losses are not just due to nobody having fans in then you can’t claim as it would of been the same no matter what league you are in.

[tynietigers]

34 minutes ago, His name is said:

I think the loss of TV revenue will be more than £2m alone.

 

The difference in league prize money for bottom of premiership and top of championship is £600k.

 

Premiership clubs received about £400k UEFA solidarity payments last year.

 

That's before factoring in actual compensation for damages

 

We probably won't get £8m but it'll be more than £2m, if we win of course.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not but I think we will be happy with that and obviously exposing the blatant cheating in the game 👍🏻

[Hagar the Horrible]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

Damages would be estimated income of last year against the coming year. It will of course take into consideration there’s also going to be no fans in any of the leagues as to how the estimated income figure is reached.  What lawyers called the claim of £8 conservative? Leslie Deans?   why is there never any middle ground anywhere in this case on here at times? 

Actualy NO it was the tame QC/Lawyer the BBC had,  and they baulked at that comment, The sniggering stopped! he also stated that the number we came up with is not plucked out of the air but actual running expenses and loss of income by their decision, and that it would have been an evaluation done by a recognised arbitrar/auditor

[tynietigers]

56 minutes ago, Still Tynie said:

If buts and maybes, where do you pluck 2 million max from and second waves 

Not just the second wave but even if there isn’t one we still wouldn’t have fans in for the foreseeable future so it’s an income that we would not have, again no matter what league we are in.

[Boyces beard]

6 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Damages would be estimated income of last year against the coming year. It will of course take into consideration there’s also going to be no fans in any of the leagues as to how the estimated income figure is reached.  What lawyers called the claim of £8 conservative? Leslie Deans?   why is there never any middle ground anywhere in this case on here at times? 

I think it was David Winnie that said the 8 mill was conservative but not 100% sure mate

[GBJambo]

If the SPFL stop promotion/relegation we will be looking at a lot more than 2 million 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Just now, jambo3tevie said:

I think it was David Winnie that said the 8 mill was conservative but not 100% sure mate

Thats him, it was him, pretty funny that it wiped the grin off off Richards Gordons radio face