SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[One five]

If the calpol 3 had voted for reconstruction there case would be stronger when in arbitration  as they would only be fighting for there own situation .
but to have voted against reconstruction they voted not just to protect there own situation but also to harm the 3 clubs ( us , partick and Stranraer) this is my view maybe I’m wrong but any judge with proper integrity would see this , I know feck all about the law so maybe I’m seeing this through maroon tinted glasses 🤷‍♂️

[Rick Sanchez]

On 16/06/2020 at 17:19, Rick Sanchez said:

15.15 funnily enough...

 

 

It's still there.

 

Get him on the stand, get a name, get that ***** on the stand and you'll have clear prejudice.

[niblick1874]

2 hours ago, tynietigers said:

I will repeat we are never winning 8mill because no fans are getting especially if a second wave hits 😬 2 mill max.

 

And I will repeat we will have no chance of Champions league, where as we would have a chance if we were in the league we should be in.

 

How much money for reaching the group stage? A tad more than 2 mill is my guess. 8 mill is way short if you ask me. I say we should add a few million to the number. 

[David McCaig]

Raith dont sound confident at all... being judged by the law of the land seems like a funny thing to be concerned about!!

[Hagar the Horrible]

Well if they do get the money from other clubs then hell mend them all, and as for crowdfunding asking cash strapped people is deplorable, you wont be mourned, we will survive and some QC's get richer?  Will you, will you kill off everybody else with you

 

Bring it on, you have made this now interesting we have less to  lose mind?

[true-jambo]

Just now, David McCaig said:

Raith dont sound confident at all... being judged by the law of the land seems like a funny thing to be concerned about!!

It's almost as if RR are saying, in footballing terms we don't have a case to answer, but we could lose out on a legal technicality.

His lack of awareness in respect of how fortunate they were that the league was stopped, when it was, is staggeringly pompous. They weren't even guaranteed a play off spot.

[Anything2]

6 minutes ago, One five said:

If the calpol 3 had voted for reconstruction there case would be stronger when in arbitration  as they would only be fighting for there own situation .
but to have voted against reconstruction they voted not just to protect there own situation but also to harm the 3 clubs ( us , partick and Stranraer) this is my view maybe I’m wrong but any judge with proper integrity would see this , I know feck all about the law so maybe I’m seeing this through maroon tinted glasses 🤷‍♂️

I'm not sure if voting for reconstruction would have strengthened their case with arbitration as the panel should be deciding if our demotion was correct or not legally, not whether it was done with the best of intentions. However, I think where they have shot themselves in the foot is if the panel decides that we cannot legally be demoted, DU have already argued that their should only be 12 teams in the league so if we are in, that kind of means they are out and will have to convince everyone that reconstruction is now in everyone's best interest. 

[1874robbo]

1 hour ago, tynietigers said:

Well they have sort of covered their arse with this saying that they now have the right to do this 🙄 is it right, no but they will say that is just tough titties and it will be the same in all league and nobody will be champions. But there lies the Problem of TV money 💰 

They don’t have the right to do it yet as not been voted on.

i would like to hope a good part of our defence is the fact we are being expelled into a league that we may have to be in for 2 seasons 

[1874robbo]

2 hours ago, Randy Marsh said:

I know it's the SPFL we are taking about but they surely couldn't do that.  Dundee United were promoted after 28 games.  

Yeh I know and I agree but the clubs could quite easily vote for it seeing as it’ll save about 6 teams in the prem the worry of not going down 

[wavydavy]

45 minutes ago, neilnunb said:

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/dundee-united-raith-rovers-and-cove-rangers-will-continue-fight-tribunal-approaches-2907423

 

 

 

 

So why all the nonsense about us lacking "Footballing Integrity" then when he says this. Quote from the article.

 

It’s all in company law, not really anything about the rights and wrongs football wise, it’s a question of did we as SPFL shareholders vote in a prejudiced way .

[jackal]

45 minutes ago, neilnunb said:

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/dundee-united-raith-rovers-and-cove-rangers-will-continue-fight-tribunal-approaches-2907423

 

 

So they are now admitting it is company law and they are all companies and not just clubs.

[Hagar the Horrible]

6 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Raith dont sound confident at all... being judged by the law of the land seems like a funny thing to be concerned about!!

This is insane, imagine risking all on a 50/50, their own existance, and to hurt everybody else in the process, Even if it was 60/40 and they were the 60, is it too much of a risk?  Oh and getting other clubs to fund it, Would you trust them?

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Jambo314 said:

If the league requires to be put back from starting on Aug 1st it will be according to Doncaster ...

 

Should Hearts and Partick win, the current scheduled Premiership starts date of 1 August could be put back after the fixtures were published this morning, and Doncaster accepted that it’s an outcome they’d just have to deal with.

“We’re planning for a first of August start,” he said. “It’s absolutely imperative that that’s the earliest date we’re allowed to get competitive games back underway. Clearly we’ll deal with whatever eventuality arises.

ND is nearly giving the game away here - if they don't start on 01 August that £32 million becomes a bit of a problem because  the media payments will be predicated on that. If he breaches that AND has to pay compensation then it's the end of the SPFL . 

[wavydavy]

2 hours ago, Randy Marsh said:

I know it's the SPFL we are taking about but they surely couldn't do that.  Dundee United were promoted after 28 games.  

 

Yes they can do it if the clubs agree to it. Doncaster is asking for execuitve powers for the Board to make the decision on behalf of the clubs in the event of a further Covid 19 outbreak which curtails next season and would stop relegation and promotion.

Edited July 8, 2020 by wavydavy

[wavydavy]

1 minute ago, Brian Dundas said:

Which is the opposite of what they argued in court last week.

 

Exactly total contradiction which has happened throughout this whole sorry affair.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

This is insane, imagine risking all on a 50/50, their own existance, and to hurt everybody else in the process, Even if it was 60/40 and they were the 60, is it too much of a risk?  Oh and getting other clubs to fund it, Would you trust them?

I said as much weeks ago. The people who run football in Scotland are trumped up egotists who have no ability to see a bigger picture, particularly one being projected by "a bloody woman".

[One five]

6 minutes ago, Anything2 said:

I'm not sure if voting for reconstruction would have strengthened their case with arbitration as the panel should be deciding if our demotion was correct or not legally, not whether it was done with the best of intentions. However, I think where they have shot themselves in the foot is if the panel decides that we cannot legally be demoted, DU have already argued that their should only be 12 teams in the league so if we are in, that kind of means they are out and will have to convince everyone that reconstruction is now in everyone's best interest. 

Yeah I see where your coming from , it’s just unbelievable !!!  reconstruction was the best and fairest plan it would have been the less of all evils only teams that would have missed out would have been the play offs from the lower leagues not getting a chance of promotions 

[tynietigers]

26 minutes ago, niblick1874 said:

 

And I will repeat we will have no chance of Champions league, where as we would have a chance if we were in the league we should be in.

 

How much money for reaching the group stage? A tad more than 2 mill is my guess. 8 mill is way short if you ask me. I say we should add a few million to the number. 

You know that is just spun of the top of your head to big up the 8mill 🤔 judge says can I have a look at your accounts for the last 10 years of champions league revenue please 😂

[Rods]

After RR  statement I am now more confident of getting compensation. 

 

I still believe that the fundamentals of football which are promotion and relegation will be upheld but the compensation we could get will be huge. 

 

 

 

 

[David McCaig]

2 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

Which is the opposite of what they argued in court last week.

 

Which is probably why the 3 clubs had their petition dismissed.

 

Raith are essentially gambling the future of their club on the ridiculous premise that a legally cast ballot can be revoked. In my opinion the fact that the SPFL Board pushed on regardless and didn’t just void the original ballot and run it again the next week is utterly damning.  If sufficient approvals were received quickly enough the exercise could have been resolved in just 10 minutes.  

 

We can now argue that not only did the resolution fail, so therefore we are not relegated, but also even if it had passed, we would have been in court anyway as the resolution was hurried, unfairly prejudicial and guilt of omitting key facts (hence why the SPFL didn’t re-run).

 

Its very hard to see what the SPFL argument actually has going for it... and Raith are gambling their whole future on this!!

[David McCaig]

5 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I said as much weeks ago. The people who run football in Scotland are trumped up egotists who have no ability to see a bigger picture, particularly one being projected by "a bloody woman".

 

I would also argue that on the issue of the Dundee vote the odds must be 99/1 in our favour.

[NANOJAMBO]

26 minutes ago, One five said:

If the calpol 3 had voted for reconstruction there case would be stronger when in arbitration  as they would only be fighting for there own situation .
but to have voted against reconstruction they voted not just to protect there own situation but also to harm the 3 clubs ( us , partick and Stranraer) this is my view maybe I’m wrong but any judge with proper integrity would see this , I know feck all about the law so maybe I’m seeing this through maroon tinted glasses 🤷‍♂️

Their conduct in voting for reconstruction is irrelevant as it's going to be all about what the SPFL Board did or did not do (and as Hearts QC said in CoS last week ,"it's about how the SPFL conducts it's business"). 

Reconstruction is/was never in the gift of the board and the clubs were happy to kick the clubs down who were unfortunate enough to be where they were when the music stopped.  ND has tried all along to make it seem like the SPFL Board simply carried out the wishes of the majority but that myth was busted when Lord C made it crystal clear in his summing up just exactly what he thinks of the SPFL / SFA behaviour & threats in court. 

 

I don't understand what the 3 clubs want/expect but it seems they don't trust the SPFL Board to put their case. But that's their problem - they were warned by AB that she wouldn't accept this outcome (an outcome which these clubs voted for) so it's time to put up or shut up on their part. 

[niblick1874]

1 minute ago, tynietigers said:

You know that is just spun of the top of your head to big up the 8mill 🤔 judge says can I have a look at your accounts for the last 10 years of champions league revenue please 😂

 

So you know they are going to figure out how much money by going back 10 years. Where did you see or hear that? Hearts can't get into the Champions league if they are not in the top league. That is a fact. They will be going on facts.  

[David McCaig]

2 minutes ago, Rods said:

After RR  statement I am now more confident of getting compensation. 

 

I still believe that the fundamentals of football which are promotion and relegation will be upheld but the compensation we could get will be huge. 

 

 

 

 

Fundamental of promotion/relegation after 38 games as per the rules you mean.

 

If we are to use a footballing analogy, Hearts are 10-0 up v Cowdenbeath and the floodlights fail plunging the ground into total darkness causing the match to be unfinished.  Do Hearts get the 3 points or is the Match abandoned?

[neilnunb]

7 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I said as much weeks ago. The people who run football in Scotland are trumped up egotists who have no ability to see a bigger picture, particularly one being projected by "a bloody woman".

 

That's exactly what it is. I've seen loads of folk bringing up the fact this is being done by 'one woman'...well actually it's two.

 

🤣

 

Also laughably on the Raith message board they are saying how Budge has no conscience. Un****ingreal. 🤣

[gnasher75]

Now that the reality is slowly beginning to dawn that this case could go either way, why don't Raith or United (or any other club that is anxious about going bust if the SPFL loses this case) put forward a reconstruction proposal now. Call for another indicative vote. Persuade all the other clubs that it is the cheapest way to resolve this and make it all go away. 

[Riccarton3]

1 minute ago, gnasher75 said:

Now that the reality is slowly beginning to dawn that this case could go either way, why don't Raith or United (or any other club that is anxious about going bust if the SPFL loses this case) put forward a reconstruction proposal now. Call for another indicative vote. Persuade all the other clubs that it is the cheapest way to resolve this and make it all go away. 

Foolish pride

[SectionDJambo]

4 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Yes they can do it if the clubs agree to it. Doncaster is asking for execuitve powers for the Board to make the decision on behlaf of the clubs in the event of a further Covid 19 outbreak which curtails next season and would stop relegation and promotion.

The clubs must, surely, be wary of giving the puppet, Doncaster, that kind of power. It would be far more sensible to have definate, pre determined outcomes, for the eventuality of the league being suspended, by the government only, depending on how many games had been played. They cannot give him, and his master, the power to decide the fate of any club, regardless of when a season had been suspended and the prospects for restarting. 

Maybe the wee clubs are waking up to the realisation that they are only useful to Doncaster when it suits him and his master. Stenhousemuir are kicking up a fuss about the old firm match being scheduled for the same weekend as they would start playing. Saying it will take away the publicity of the lower leagues returning to playing, when they would be desperate for a good response in attracting spectators, should they be allowed by then. They must have thought they were important to Doncaster for a wee while. Now they know their place again. 

Neil Lennon wants the first old firm game delayed for allowing spectators into Parkhead. He's not bothered about the likes of Stenhousemuir, if it's not to help Celtic.

[NANOJAMBO]

14 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

Which is the opposite of what they argued in court last week.

Exactly- Moynihan specifically & vociferously said "it's a football matter" . It was all about "relegation & promotion" the "quintessential" football argument.  But Lord C quickly disabused them of that notion when he dismissed the 3 clubs told the SPFL/SFA what he expects the composition of the arbitration panel to be. 

[Anything2]

9 minutes ago, One five said:

Yeah I see where your coming from , it’s just unbelievable !!!  reconstruction was the best and fairest plan it would have been the less of all evils only teams that would have missed out would have been the play offs from the lower leagues not getting a chance of promotions 

I agree and can't understand why DU et al didn't vote for it as court was always going to be the case if recon failed and they have put themselves in a position where a coin toss will decide if they get promoted or not instead of a guaranteed promotion. 

[Last Laff]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I don’t see it being £8m either tbh. If arbitration upholds the SPFL decision then I doubt we’ll get owt 

I think we will get the moral victory and £2m.  Hope no though and we pound them but I’m taking anything written on here with a big pinch of salt. 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, SectionDJambo said:

The clubs must, surely, be wary of giving the puppet, Doncaster, that kind of power. It would be far more sensible to have definate, pre determined outcomes, for the eventuality of the league being suspended, by the government only, depending on how many games had been played. They cannot give him, and his master, the power to decide the fate of any club, regardless of when a season had been suspended and the prospects for restarting. 

Maybe the wee clubs are waking up to the realisation that they are only useful to Doncaster when it suits him and his master. Stenhousemuir are kicking up a fuss about the old firm match being scheduled for the same weekend as they would start playing. Saying it will take away the publicity of the lower leagues returning to playing, when they would be desperate for a good response in attracting spectators, should they be allowed by then. They must have thought they were important to Doncaster for a wee while. Now they know their place again. 

Neil Lennon wants the first old firm game delayed for allowing spectators into Parkhead. He's not bothered about the likes of Stenhousemuir, if it's not to help Celtic.

I'd like to see Hearts stirring the shit here and publicly insisting that if ND and the SPFL is happy to go to the CoS & arbitration on arbitrarily halting the season and their PPG bollocks to determine outcomes then it is the height of hypocrisy for them to do otherwise in the coming season(s). Sauce for the goose & all that ...

[TyphoonJambo]

Is it not against association rules for teams not litigated against to donate towards one side against the other in such a case. Surely its the majority ganging up against the minority? 

Does this even make sense? 

[jackal]

What I dont understand is DUs vote against reconstruction. If it went ahead they get extra games and at least one visit from Hearts fans so more income. They would get less in the way of prize money because more teams to split but I think the main reason is taking a team out that you know will finish above you so more chance of relegation or play off in year one.

If it was Hamilton, St Liedown or County I think they would have voted yes.

[tcjambo]

1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

 

Why do you think a 2nd wave is unlikely? considering what is going on in England and elsewhere in the world.

Read the comments of Prof Carl Friston - second wave would be minor, most likely Jan next year - 7000 deaths.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, TypoonJambo said:

Is it not against association rules for teams not litigated against to donate towards one side against the other in such a case. Surely its the majority ganging up against the minority? 

Does this even make sense? 

I wondered about this  last week.  Matters of "acting in the utmost good faith" and anti competitive behaviour spring to mind. 

[hibsarepants]

To those who think this is a 50/50 case , whilst we could lose the argument that the vote was flawed (note could) on legal grounds , the next argument posed by the Raith Rovers Chairman himself , may be somewhat easier to answer:

 

"it’s a question of did we as SPFL shareholders vote in a prejudiced way " 

 

I suspect the defence strategy  in the Arbitration is damage limitation - kill off the vote issue and attack the quantum of the compensation claim. 

[TyphoonJambo]

1 minute ago, NANOJAMBO said:

I wondered about this  last week.  Matters of "acting in the utmost good faith" and anti competitive behaviour spring to mind. 

Need our legal eagles to confirm this

[Ethan Hunt]

1 hour ago, neilnunb said:

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/dundee-united-raith-rovers-and-cove-rangers-will-continue-fight-tribunal-approaches-2907423

 

 

To be honest it’s a fair assessment by the RR Chairman. They might be backing a losing horse though and I really can’t see what they can bring to the table that the SPFL shouldn’t be bringing on their behalf anyway.

[Mikey1874]

58 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

In fairness to the guys they are only doing their bit. A bit contrition is required sometimes. Remember we as fans did a multitude of fundraising things when our club was in trouble. Regardless of Dundee United’s issues, two of their fans have stood up an done their bit, exactly the same as we would if Hearts asked us for money for legal costs. Personally I take my hat off to them.

 

Seem some of the fundraising. Good effort. These guys have made £10,000 so far.

 

 

[David McCaig]

3 minutes ago, hibsarepants said:

To those who think this is a 50/50 case , whilst we could lose the argument that the vote was flawed (note could) on legal grounds , the next argument posed by the Raith Rovers Chairman himself , may be somewhat easier to answer:

 

"it’s a question of did we as SPFL shareholders vote in a prejudiced way " 

 

I suspect the defence strategy  in the Arbitration is damage limitation - kill off the vote issue and attack the quantum of the compensation claim. 

Kill off the vote issue in what sense?

 

If the resolution failed by what mechanism are we relegated?

[Mikey1874]

56 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

Raith chairman thinks it’s 50/50 on the outcome of legal action. I think that’s probably about right    as there is no legal precedent for the arbitration panel to follow.

 

Regarding the calculation of the compensation claim I would say that it would be fairly easy to calculate. Just compare our income in the Championship year to our income last year then adjust for Hibs and Rangers being in the Championship and the season being shorter than usual. 
 

I would think that once you do that calculation it’s about £8 million. 

 

More than 1 season in Championship could be a problem for the clubs.

[Boof]

1 hour ago, Captain Canada said:

 

Yeah United have a team in the top two divisions though. 

 

And Partick Thistle still in the Championship.

[Hungry hippo]

Fair play to the guys fundraising. Seem to be doing it in a positive way and nothing wrong with fans backing their club.

[milky_26]

1 minute ago, Boof said:

 

And Partick Thistle still in the Championship.

they've only updated the premiership list, as that is the only one they care about

[hibsarepants]

4 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Kill off the vote issue in what sense?

 

If the resolution failed by what mechanism are we relegated?

The Arbitration panel MAY take the view that the vote was flawed but legal , I don't think they will but they could on some legal technicality / case law etc etc. What cant be argued AT ALL is that those who voted did so in  prejudicial way whether that was intended or not. Its not whether you meant to cause harm but what your actions did.

[colinmaroon]

10 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Seem some of the fundraising. Good effort. These guys have made £10,000 so far.

 

 

 

 

Am I dumb or does this not seem like a very provocative stunt?  Why not walk to Kirkcaldy?

 

There are enough idiots in our support that could cause a problem on their arrival/near arrival and the PR for that would be dire.  

 

Maybe that's what they're hoping for?

 

 

[Ethan Hunt]

44 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

 

So why all the nonsense about us lacking "Footballing Integrity" then when he says this. Quote from the article.

 

It’s all in company law, not really anything about the rights and wrongs football wise, it’s a question of did we as SPFL shareholders vote in a prejudiced way .

Because they’ve only just realised. Lord Clark helped them with that realisation.

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, niblick1874 said:

 

And I will repeat we will have no chance of Champions league, where as we would have a chance if we were in the league we should be in.

 

How much money for reaching the group stage? A tad more than 2 mill is my guess. 8 mill is way short if you ask me. I say we should add a few million to the number. 

You cannot be put into a better position by way of any award made by the Courts. Claiming for loss of Champions League money when we've got into that competition's qualifying stages once in how many years?

No actuary would ever countenance such a claim.

 

[Rick Sanchez]

Surely absolutely nothing legal about publicising an incomplete vote and knowingly letting the last team change their vote after arranging friendlies against big hitters and trying to wangle a 16 team top flight for themselves.

 

It's as bad as it looks and teams have that much hatred for Hearts that they can't see it