SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[NANOJAMBO]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Some points

 

We are raising orders under the 2006 Companies Act - sections 994 and 996 

 

We refer to the promoted teams and Stranraer as parties affected. 

 

On p5/6 we talk about how relegation happens after 38 games. 

 

Then set out the Resolution which decided league positions as at 13 March. 

P21. I like this bit - basically, the leagues weren't completed in accordance with the rules and although promotion& relegation was decided, because the teams in the play off places were denied "It was unfair and arbitrary."

[Jambo66]

2 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

My worry is the spfl will say that they would have carried out the executive decision if the Dundee vote has been counted as a no

So what? The Dundee vote is  not the only reason they're going to get ragdolled in court.

[John Findlay]

27 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Okay that's cool I got a bit panicky that someone might have released it prematurely. The fifth column is every where. Loose lips cost ships and all that! 

In my day it was Argentinian bombs and Exocet missiles.

[Weebroon98]

2 hours ago, Riccarton3 said:

Have the SPFL put the clubs up to this to try and muddy Hearts challenge?

Exactly what i thought today

[RobNox]

10 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

Who threatens to expel us anonymously? What a coward. 
 

The siege mentality is bringing us all together and it’s wonderful. 

 

Too true mate.  I've posted on here more in the past few days than I had all year.  I was becoming disillusioned with what was going on at our club and getting fed up with all the petty bickering on JKB.  Suddenly we have a cause to unite behind, I've got my passion back for Hearts, upped my FOH contributions and re-bought a season ticket - I didn't renew last season as I was so disillusioned so decided to pick and choose my games.  Now I can't wait to get back to a packed Tynie and get stuck into these diddy teams that tried to exploit us.  None of them will ever get another penny of my money (well, unless we have them at home in a cup tie).

[Heartsmad1874]

That was some reading . I do hope we don’t settle out of court and take these ***** to the cleaners.

[thehibsareintheirbeds]

What a week of ups and downs but reading through our petition is an absolute joy.  Clubs were mislead, the resolution should never have passed because of the vote and as a little treat at the end we can quote an spfl director confirming we'd been treated unfairly.

 

Would feel sorry for united, rovers and cove but given how they've acted they can away and take their medicine 

Edited June 19, 2020 by thehibsareintheirbeds
Typo

[Koolkeith]

4 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

My worry is the spfl will say that they would have carried out the executive decision if the Dundee vote has been counted as a no

Their rules are so wooly they can basically make it up as they go along.

[Footballfirst]

50 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Petition of Heart of Midlothian Football Club and another P -20 Petition 3.pdf 206.63 kB · 295 downloads

 

Thanks for the document. I'll add it to my repository of SPFL cock ups.

 

The document is actually fairly concise in comparison to other petitions I have seen.

 

It sets out the pertinent legal issues and thankfully ignores the emotive side issues such as the WhatsApp exchanges, bullying accusations and he said/she said stuff.

[Riccarton3]

34 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Dundee Utd and Co can go pap shit at the moon........did hearts not state they were not challenging promotions?  

It's the, we have been met by something g bigger than football. Aye, and how did you react? Go **** yourself.

[John Findlay]

6 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

My worry is the spfl will say that they would have carried out the executive decision if the Dundee vote has been counted as a no

Then in that case you would be well within our rights or anyone else for that matter to ask. 

Why didnt you use an executive decision to approve league reconstruction?

[Kidd’s Boots]

16 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Hearts basically saying - SPFL presented a "take it or leave it " to the clubs (re getting the end of season money) when there were options available to do so. Hearst go on  to name specifics. 

 

In addition , the SPFL kept on banging on about having to change the Articles to make the payments (in order to do so before the end of season completion) BUT  they had to change the competition rules anyway (ie season didn't finish , so the Board had to decide).

So, if they could change the competition rules, why couldn't they change the articles instead.

 

 

And then this...

 

"Equally, in the event that the Season did ultimately have to end because of the Covid-19 crisis, it did not follow that Rules required to be changed to treat the Season as having been completed, for the purposes of promotion and relegation. 16 All of that ought to have been explained fairly and clearly by the Directors. It was not. The Directors’ failure to so explain matters to Members constituted a breach of their duty to provide sufficient information to allow Members to make properly informed decisions when voting on the Written

 

I'm only at p15. 

Absolutely,  but please, a spoiler alert next time, I'm a few pages behind!!

[Mikey1874]

Our case is

 

1. Payments could have been made to clubs. Done before. In any case Articles and rules could have been changed

2. Dundee voted No

3. Unfair prejudice (p19) - Companies Act 2006 sections 994 and 996. SPFL did it wrong with wrong advice - "misrepresentations" and insufficient time to consider. 

 

We say no promotion and no relegation would have been best option. Particular unfairness for Partick is mentioned. 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

That no reasonable member, properly informed, could have considered that the Written Resolution was in the interests of the Company.

Such a member would not be misled by the Directors’ misrepresentations hereinbefore condescended upon. It would be aware that it was not necessary for the 2019/2020 Season to be terminated so that final fee payments could be made to Members.

It would know that the link between ending the Season (including, for the avoidance of doubt, the promotion and relegation of Clubs) and the making of fee payments could be decoupled. It would be aware of Members’ expectations that the League competition (and promotion and relegation) would be determined by observance of (i) the Rules and (ii) competitive fairness which was integral thereto.

It would not vote for arbitrary changes to the Rules which, on the one hand determined promotion and relegation on an average points per game basis (to four decimal places) but, on the other, otherwise dispensed with play-offs and relegations and promotions emanating therefrom, and consequently spared Brechin FC, placed bottom of League 2 and 42 in the League, from the prospect of relegation from the League. It would recognise that the arbitrary 22 nature of the petitioners’ relegation was, as Leslie Gray stated on 15 June 2020, “unfair".

 

In short 

Payments could have been made without  the need to end the season - the clubs were misled-  and the Board could not have been unaware of this. 

The bit about  Brechin is self explanatory - apply the rules fairly to all clubs, in all divisions , but they didn't. 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

That was some reading . I do hope we don’t settle out of court and take these ***** to the cleaners.

 

Reading from p18 is superb

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Kidd’s Boots said:

Absolutely,  but please, a spoiler alert next time, I'm a few pages behind!!

Sorry. 😉

[Heartsmad1874]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Reading from p18 is superb

Indeed! Its little wonder Scumdee Utd, Raith and Cove are shaking in their boots.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

19 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

I think they’ll have thought it through. The SPFL are looking at being spitroasted. 

 

If they'd really thought it through they would have thrown their weight behind reconstruction (as the solution with virtually zero cost to themselves) to remove any chance of court overturning relegation and therefore promotion. They didn't;t so they might now find themselves campaigning for reconstruction 😂

Edited June 19, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Jambo66]

11 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

Thanks for the document. I'll add it to my repository of SPFL cock ups.

 

The document is actually fairly concise in comparison to other petitions I have seen.

 

It sets out the pertinent legal issues and thankfully ignores the emotive side issues such as the WhatsApp exchanges, bullying accusations and he said/she said stuff.

I entirely agree with that FF.  I didn't see anything in it that surprised me.  The real entertainment will be seeing the answers from the SPFL - if they haven't seen sense by the expiry of the 7 day period.

 

I don't expect to hear anything more from Dundee Utd, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers.  They almost certainly cannot afford to join the action.  Although it will be interesting to see what happens if the SPFL decides not to defend at all.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Jambo66

[NANOJAMBO]

8 minutes ago, Jambo66 said:

So what? The Dundee vote is  not the only reason they're going to get ragdolled in court.

Correct. There's loads of stuff in there (that's not a legal term 😆).

 

The dirty washing is getting aired. All of it. 

[Don Dan]

My unlearned option is the SPFL are stuffed and we have more than good case. 
Neil, Ann posted our bank account details for donations so just cough up now and save everybody’s time. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Dannie Boy

[feedtheroman2]

When you think back on how our games have been "ref'd" in the past, can you imagine how they're going to be dealt with if we do ever get back to playing. 

We've already got big boab madden taking the piss and that was before all this came to light!

[Mikey1874]

I said at the time Les Gray should have kept quiet. 

 

Or that he is helping us. 

[MCW1976]

15 minutes ago, fancy a brew said:

 

Definitely not Brechin, no way José.

             

😁

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

**** knows how this is going to go

[Seymour M Hersh]

9 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

In my day it was Argentinian bombs and Exocet missiles.

 

Ha ha in your day it was Trebuchets and  Ballistas! 

[henryheart]

I particularly liked the reference to Ross County!

[Skiba]

If they're all starting to crumble then tough.  They can apply to JA's fund at the SPFL.  They need to remember it was Ann Budge who brokered this.  Throwing in £3M to help them and we're public enemy no.1.  #nohardfeelings

[rory78]

Knob jockey Tam McManus on PLZ suggesting it should be sorted out of court!!??does this guy not realise the SPFL don't have a bean - how he's even being mentioned in Scottish Football Media is baffling he makes Gary O'Connor look like JOH - Einstein

[sprinbox98]

Have to say I’m a bit surprised that Gilson Gray are our legal counsel on a case of this magnitude. Not the best guys to represent us (personal opinion)

[Guest ToqueJambo]

17 minutes ago, 22games nro said:

yep that’s the money shot 

 

 

 

This was all said at the time. It's when it was sent that counts, not when received. Who is the SPFL's lawyer, Lionel Hutz?

[NANOJAMBO]

8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Our case is

 

1. Payments could have been made to clubs. Done before. In any case Articles and rules could have been changed

2. Dundee voted No

3. Unfair prejudice (p19) - Companies Act 2006 sections 994 and 996. SPFL did it wrong with wrong advice - "misrepresentations" and insufficient time to consider. 

 

We say no promotion and no relegation would have been best option. Particular unfairness for Partick is mentioned. 

 

And Hearts are clearly saying- the Board must have known this was a false position , they misled the clubs. I'm reading that as a real criticism of the Board. Thoughts ? 

[Jambo66]

3 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Correct. There's loads of stuff in there (that's not a legal term 😆).

 

The dirty washing is getting aired. All of it. 

Ragdolled will be a legal term after this is all over 😁

[Bazzas right boot]

40 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Yep, Albion Rovers would have a long 8hr drive to play that highland league team, whatever they are called, they couldn't be arsed doing that so voted against it. 🤷

 

And the funny thing is that is the best reason given so far!!! 

[Dave McCreery's knee]

There’s a bit around item 40 about Partick being relegated into a league that may not play at all next season due to being 0.0347 points per game behind with a game in hand as a result of game being postponed by SPFL that packs a massive punch. 
nice digs at Les Gray as well. Total incompetent. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, sprinbox98 said:

Have to say I’m a bit surprised that Gilson Gray are our legal counsel on a case of this magnitude. Not the best guys to represent us (personal opinion)

 

Are you a lawyer?

[Cruyff]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Are you a lawyer?

I always thought they were a solicitors and they only dealt with property law tbh. 🤷

[Guest ToqueJambo]

42 minutes ago, iantjambo said:

 

We’re not here to make pals.

 

I hope all these ***** utterly despise us by the time this debacle comes to its conclusion.

 

 

 

There are very good reasons to hate Rangers stretching back decades. Aside form Hibs, any reasons to "hate" us right now are based on misreporting and sensational headlines that mean most fans of other clubs simply don't understand (or care) how strong our case is and how unfairly the relegated clubs have been treated.

 

That aside, being the most hated club in Scotland hasn't exactly done Rangers any harm!

[Dave McCreery's knee]

4 minutes ago, rory78 said:

Knob jockey Tam McManus on PLZ suggesting it should be sorted out of court!!??does this guy not realise the SPFL don't have a bean - how he's even being mentioned in Scottish Football Media is baffling he makes Gary O'Connor look like JOH - Einstein

What does he think that Ann Budge has been trying tondo for the past 2 months? Avoid going to court. Jesus wept. 

[Cruyff]

16 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

GTF with this shit. Seriously, just **** off with it.

Maybe he forgot that the former first minister wrote to the Lithuanian government on our behalf. 

[Riccarton3]

18 minutes ago, Weebroon98 said:

Exactly what i thought today

But it might be the shock of having been served papers. Either way, it matters not

[WorldChampions1902]

6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

If they'd really thought it through they would have thrown their weight behind reconstruction (as the solution with virtually zero cost to themselves) to remove any chance of court overturning relegation and therefore promotion. They didn't;t so they might now find themselves campaigning for reconstruction 😂

You’re right but what does that tell us about how the SPFL thought we would proceed? 
 

They massively underestimated the degree of our preparedness and willingness to see this through. But then, that is yet another indicator of their level of arrogance. And it also suggests to me that they have been playing catch-up for a while, which can only bolster our chances of winning in court.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

6 minutes ago, sprinbox98 said:

Have to say I’m a bit surprised that Gilson Gray are our legal counsel on a case of this magnitude. Not the best guys to represent us (personal opinion)

 

This is like when we sign a player. Who should we have got instead?

[HMFC01]

3 hours ago, Gizmo said:

I must say, I'm finding Raith's position in all of this quite hypocritical. They lucked out by being beneficiaries from the league being suspended (and subsequently ended on a vote) as they were no where near confirmed as Champions. 

To claim ruinous losses with a straight face whilst kicking another club to the ground, is an absolute affront.

 

YEAH!

 

[Jambo66]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

This is like when we sign a player. Who should we have got instead?

What matters is not so much which firm, but which individual/s within that firm.

[Gmcjambo]

16 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

That no reasonable member, properly informed, could have considered that the Written Resolution was in the interests of the Company.

Such a member would not be misled by the Directors’ misrepresentations hereinbefore condescended upon. It would be aware that it was not necessary for the 2019/2020 Season to be terminated so that final fee payments could be made to Members.

It would know that the link between ending the Season (including, for the avoidance of doubt, the promotion and relegation of Clubs) and the making of fee payments could be decoupled. It would be aware of Members’ expectations that the League competition (and promotion and relegation) would be determined by observance of (i) the Rules and (ii) competitive fairness which was integral thereto.

It would not vote for arbitrary changes to the Rules which, on the one hand determined promotion and relegation on an average points per game basis (to four decimal places) but, on the other, otherwise dispensed with play-offs and relegations and promotions emanating therefrom, and consequently spared Brechin FC, placed bottom of League 2 and 42 in the League, from the prospect of relegation from the League. It would recognise that the arbitrary 22 nature of the petitioners’ relegation was, as Leslie Gray stated on 15 June 2020, “unfair".

 

In short 

Payments could have been made without  the need to end the season - the clubs were misled-  and the Board could not have been unaware of this. 

The bit about  Brechin is self explanatory - apply the rules fairly to all clubs, in all divisions , but they didn't. 

And I absolutely love bringing in the quote from Lesley Gray who in fact confirmed that it was 'unfair'.   Some very strong points being made.   Love it.

[Tommy Brown]

3 hours ago, Riccarton3 said:

You have to think the SF A was satisfied with the solution. Not an issue. Three clubs thrown to the wolves. Not a problem. No interest despite our owner saying she would take it to court. From the SFA, SFA. 

Genuinely believe Ian Maxwell at SFA is shit feared on Doncaster/ Lawwell.

He is not a strong leader.

20/3/20

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18328076.ian-maxwell-says-cancelling-season-not-considered-outlines-determination-fulfil-fixtures/

[Guest ToqueJambo]

3 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

You’re right but what does that tell us about how the SPFL thought we would proceed? 
 

They massively underestimated the degree of our preparedness and willingness to see this through. But then, that is yet another indicator of their level of arrogance. And it also suggests to me that they have been playing catch-up for a while, which can only bolster our chances of winning in court.

 

I think the SPFL under Doncaster genuinely don't realise how big a club Hearts is in Scottish terms. He's so preoccupied with the Old Firm. I mean, if Peter Lawell had passed him a contact willing to invest millions in Scottish football he would have been straight on the phone to him. Because it came from Budge and Hearts he pretty much ignored it. He's seriously underestimated how well-resourced, prepared and up for a fight we are over this.

Edited June 19, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[gnasher75]

So is this right?

 

Hearts and Thistle are making the argument that the decision to relegate clubs is unfair because it was taken on the basis of false information; the vote didn't actually carry anyway; and it is damaging to member clubs.

 

If this goes to court, one strong possibility is that both relegation and promotion will be deemed unlawful.

 

Hearts and Thistle have given early warning to the promoted clubs (which is normal practice) of the possible outcome in the hope that their legal advisers will recognise the strength of the case against the SPFL.

 

The best and least expensive outcome for all clubs is for the "champion" clubs to petition the rest of the SPFL clubs to try to find another solution, namely reconstruction, and to avoid going to court.

 

Hearts and Thistle can now watch and wait to see what compromise may be proposed - most likely an EGM and vote on 14-10-10-10.

 

Another possible option that could be imposed by the courts would be a play off between Hearts and United, Raith and Partick, Stranraer and Cove Rangers. But it is difficult to see when these games could be played. All 6 clubs would prefer reconstruction than run the risk of losing a play off. 

 

For all that it is fun being universally hated (unfairly), it might be a good time for Hearts to be reaching out to United, Raith and Cove to say actually we are all in this together. I actually think that is part of Ann Budge's strategy.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

I always thought they were a solicitors and they only dealt with property law tbh. 🤷

 

I suppose most of us thought it might be one of the "big name" firms. But that doesn't guarantee quality and winning. Very talented lawyers work in smaller and medium sized firms. Arguably Scotland's best Corporate firm Dickson Minto are small in numbers but punch well above their weight.