gedster Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 26 minutes ago, Newton51 said: My worry is the spfl will say that they would have carried out the executive decision if the Dundee vote has been counted as a no If so that will be documented in Minutes, ergo...... produce them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weebroon98 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said: But it might be the shock of having been served papers. Either way, it matters not 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackshades Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 12 minutes ago, Jambo66 said: I entirely agree with that FF. I didn't see anything in it that surprised me. The real entertainment will be seeing the answers from the SPFL - if they haven't seen sense by the expiry of the 7 day period. I don't expect to hear anything more from Dundee Utd, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers. They almost certainly cannot afford to join the action. Although it will be interesting to see what happens if the SPFL decides not to defend at all. Raith certainly can't but not so sure about utd and im sure cove are well financed by Aberdeen business men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE DOING THEIR OWN HOMEWORK. Hearts will apply for an interdict to stop relegation £8 Million for Hearts £2M for Partick And Hearts want costs awarded too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert McFly Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Leslie Gray is the smoking gun in all this from a legal point of view with his public comments that will be taken as fact as he's a board member, interesting that the Rangers board member has said nothing publicly. Leslie Gray is either completely behind the action and said these things deliberately or is quite possibly just stupid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Hunt Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said: If they'd really thought it through they would have thrown their weight behind reconstruction (as the solution with virtually zero cost to themselves) to remove any chance of court overturning relegation and therefore promotion. They didn't;t so they might now find themselves campaigning for reconstruction 😂 I meant they’ve thought their now legal response through. They’ll now know it would be the SPFL they would have to take to court. I agree they might not have thought through the repercussions of voting against reconstruction, then again that charge can be libelled at 25 other clubs as well, who, if Hearts and PT are successful, will all be negatively impacted, along with this who did vote yes. Personally I don’t think many of them thought we would take this to court. Maybe the spin from the SPFL was that we had no case. Maybe they thought we were full of shit. They know the score now though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Just now, Seymour M Hersh said: I suppose most of us thought it might be one of the "big name" firms. But that doesn't guarantee quality and winning. Very talented lawyers work in smaller and medium sized firms. Arguably Scotland's best Corporate firm Dickson Minto are small in numbers but punch well above their weight. No, you're right, it doesn't mean anything. It's their arguments and understanding of the case that counts. I'm sure they understand the ins and outs of Scots Law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zakred Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Jambo66 said: What matters is not so much which firm, but which individual/s within that firm. I believe the solicitors hire the QC's and do some ground work for them, ultimately it depends on how good your main man is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
true-jambo Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, David McCaig said: Petition of Heart of Midlothian Football Club and another P -20 Petition 3.pdf 206.63 kB · 385 downloads I especially like the bit about interest on the £10m claim at 8% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiIsGod Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Abiola Dauda said: Read the second sentence of the circled paragraph from SPFL's articles. Easy win. Pleasing Edited June 19, 2020 by RudiIsGod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Just now, Albert McFly said: Leslie Gray is the smoking gun in all this from a legal point of view with his public comments that will be taken as fact as he's a board member, interesting that the Rangers board member has said nothing publicly. Leslie Gray is either completely behind the action and said these things deliberately or is quite possibly just stupid! The same Les Gray who presided over this? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42963379 Nah man, he's just stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Sausage Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Im obviously very biased (as are most of those on this thread - one way or the other..) but how can any reasonable person read that petition and not agree with the points put forward? the 14-10-10-10 is the logical answer. Hearts and Dundee Utd in prem (ICT lucky bonus club) Partick and Raith in championship (Falkirk lucky bonus club) Stranraer and Cove in league 1 (Edinburgh City lucky bonus club) Brechin, Kelty and Brora in league 2 All at a cost of what? 0.5% to each club? Utter madness that this entire descent into legal carnage has been brought about by the failure of the many to accept the smallest of hits, instead turning a blind eye to the problems visited on the minority. scandalous self-interest and it’s al coming home to roost now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 19 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said: That no reasonable member, properly informed, could have considered that the Written Resolution was in the interests of the Company. Such a member would not be misled by the Directors’ misrepresentations hereinbefore condescended upon. It would be aware that it was not necessary for the 2019/2020 Season to be terminated so that final fee payments could be made to Members. It would know that the link between ending the Season (including, for the avoidance of doubt, the promotion and relegation of Clubs) and the making of fee payments could be decoupled. It would be aware of Members’ expectations that the League competition (and promotion and relegation) would be determined by observance of (i) the Rules and (ii) competitive fairness which was integral thereto. It would not vote for arbitrary changes to the Rules which, on the one hand determined promotion and relegation on an average points per game basis (to four decimal places) but, on the other, otherwise dispensed with play-offs and relegations and promotions emanating therefrom, and consequently spared Brechin FC, placed bottom of League 2 and 42 in the League, from the prospect of relegation from the League. It would recognise that the arbitrary 22 nature of the petitioners’ relegation was, as Leslie Gray stated on 15 June 2020, “unfair". In short Payments could have been made without the need to end the season - the clubs were misled- and the Board could not have been unaware of this. The bit about Brechin is self explanatory - apply the rules fairly to all clubs, in all divisions , but they didn't. Les Gray, again. Name keeps cropping up. On the Board. Unfair on Hearts. That was just a few days ago, too. Immaculate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudiIsGod Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Pleasing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Gmcjambo said: And I absolutely love bringing in the quote from Lesley Gray who in fact confirmed that it was 'unfair'. Some very strong points being made. Love it. Poor old Les has put his foot in it : further down Hearts QC points out Les has said that the SPFL "have their legal opinion" (or similar) - in which case the SPFL should have no problem responding within 7 days !! 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Is Back Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 15 minutes ago, rory78 said: Knob jockey Tam McManus on PLZ suggesting it should be sorted out of court!!??does this guy not realise the SPFL don't have a bean - how he's even being mentioned in Scottish Football Media is baffling he makes Gary O'Connor look like JOH - Einstein Just realised that he was on the pitch at THAT 4-4 game. Still hurts clearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newton51 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 WHEN is a football dispute not a football dispute? And is the SPFL an associated member as defined under the terms of the SFA's articles of association? Hearts supremo Ann Budge wants to halt promotion These are the thorny matters which compliance officer Clare Whyte will be pondering today as she works out what action, if any, she can take after Hearts and Partick Thistle decided to bypass the SFA's disciplinary procedures and take their gripe with the SPFL to the court of session. She will write to both clubs to get as much information as possible before reaching her ultimate decision. There was much talk this morning of the national governing body stepping in to "hammer" the Tynecastle side. At first glance, this appeared to be a straight-forward breach of Article 99 of the SFA rulebook which covers 'Resolutions of Disputes between Members'. Under point, 99.15 member clubs should not take a "Football Dispute" to a court of law except with the prior approval of the Board. Received wisdom would tell you it is one of the biggest no nos in the sport. But talk of expulsions and draconian sanctions seems fanciful for now - because first Whyte must establish once and for all where the jurisdiction lies in the case. Article 99.7 in the SFA rules describes a football dispute as a "dispute between or among members and/or any associated person(s) arising out of or relating to Association Football (with the exception of a matter which falls within the supervisory jurisdiction of the Court of Session, and with the exception of any matter for which the Judicial Panel or tribunals appointed therefrom have jurisdiction under these Articles). Yet while Hearts and Partick's action directly threatens the promotions of Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers, the petition "primarily seeks to reduce the unfair resolution insofar as it changed the SPFL’s rules on promotion and relegation". Therefore Hearts and Thistle are pitted against the SPFL themselves, who aren't a member of the SFA. Both relegated clubs could argue that means it isn't a football dispute and therefore they weren't obliged to ask the SFA's permission before taking the case to the Court of Session. On the other hand, there is provision in the SPFL rule book for something called an "associated person". This is defined as "any body or person who is involved in Association Football in Scotland under the auspices of or pursuant to a contract with a member". Whether or not the SFA can take action in this case will ultimately come down to whether they can successfully argue that the SPFL is "an associated person" and therefore this was a football dispute after all. Which brings us all back to the definitions way back at point 1.1 of the rulebook: is the SPFL an associated person or an associate member as defined by the SFA articles? The definitions of associated person and associated member could be crucial If not the SFA, then, could the SPFL decide to expel Hearts and Partick Thistle for having the temerity to try to undo the promotions of Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers - not to mention potentially saddling all clubs with a £10million bill? After all, it would only take three clubs to get together to launch a members' resolution. And it wouldn't take you long to find three clubs with a particular grievance on this one. Well, potentially, but it is worth pointing out that from the birth of the SPL onwards, no club has ever been expelled from the league - nor has there ever been a resolution to do so. While the league rules do contain the provision to expel teams immediately from the competition, it isn't exactly an easy process. Like league reconstruction, it would require an 11-1 majority of Premiership clubs to expel any side from the league, plus eight sides from the Championship and 15 combined from Leagues 1 and 2. As many enemies as Hearts and Partick Thistle may find that they still have enough friends to maintain their SPFL status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Cruyff said: No, you're right, it doesn't mean anything. It's their arguments and understanding of the case that counts. I'm sure they understand the ins and outs of Scots Law. More importantly I'd suggest attention to detail and leaving no stone unturned in their research and preparation. At the end of the day if we go to court they will only instruct the QC although I notice they do have a couple of Solicitor Advocates who may well sit along side the QC(s). Edited June 19, 2020 by Seymour M Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Excellent read for a Friday evening. Glad United, Raith and Cove have joined the fight now. People are mistakenly thinking they are against us its not. Their issue will be with the SPFL I wonder if they will go for an interdict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris#9 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, zakred said: I believe the solicitors hire the QC's and do some ground work for them, ultimately it depends on how good your main man is. Yeah, Gilson Gray will instruct a QC to do the real work in court Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 17 minutes ago, sprinbox98 said: Have to say I’m a bit surprised that Gilson Gray are our legal counsel on a case of this magnitude. Not the best guys to represent us (personal opinion) You think it's going to court? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Cruyff said: No, you're right, it doesn't mean anything. It's their arguments and understanding of the case that counts. I'm sure they understand the ins and outs of Scots Law. Well as has been mentioned previously we are hardly short of very high flying experts amongst the fan base indeed some of the very best You'd have to think recommendations have been made Of course very few will truly know how good their work is The 'lead' is still to be announced but will be public very shortly This is the point where we can work to bring in funds to support the club and legal costs but in reality can do little to impact the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Sanchez Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Surely a sackable offence for Doncaster and possibly the rest? And he shouldn't be anywhere near his new ethics job if he's sabotaging votes so he can get the ruling he wants. BURN THE BOWLING CLUB DOWN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newton51 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 My prediction is either egm for 13 10 10 9 or out of court settlement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said: Ha ha in your day it was Trebuchets and Ballistas! Yes and for top speed the command was hoist main engines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said: Genuinely believe Ian Maxwell at SFA is shit feared on Doncaster/ Lawwell. He is not a strong leader. 20/3/20 https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18328076.ian-maxwell-says-cancelling-season-not-considered-outlines-determination-fulfil-fixtures/ Could someone show that article to the SFA compliance lady before she makes a fool of herself Ian thought relegations would be unfair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, OTT said: The same Les Gray who presided over this? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42963379 Nah man, he's just stupid Les reminds me of the naive lawyer in My Cousin Vinny. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said: Genuinely believe Ian Maxwell at SFA is shit feared on Doncaster/ Lawwell. He is not a strong leader. 20/3/20 https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18328076.ian-maxwell-says-cancelling-season-not-considered-outlines-determination-fulfil-fixtures/ No. Looks an d sounds an absolute lightweight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Someone said earlier he takes his son to darkheid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Newton51 said: My prediction is either egm for 13 10 10 9 or out of court settlement Imagine just as that gets signed off by the SPFL, a mysterious benefactor helps fund a legal case for Kelty Hearts and Brora Rangers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentjambo Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rods said: Excellent read for a Friday evening. Glad United, Raith and Cove have joined the fight now. People are mistakenly thinking they are against us its not. Their issue will be with the SPFL I wonder if they will go for an interdict. I'm sure their fight will be against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said: More importantly I'd suggest attention to detail and leaving no stone unturned. At the end of the day if we go to court they will only instruct the QC although I notice they do have a couple of Solicitor Advocates who may well sit along side the QC(s). They'll be laying the ground work, im sure our QC will be a top dog if it goes to court. So far it looks like they have it nailed. Either way this case isn't as complicated as the stuff they have to deal with on a day to day basis, should be a doddle for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennant's 6's Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, GinRummy said: If it is true that there will be no promotion for non league clubs next season then it’s a crying shame that Kelty and Brora couldn’t get some bro-bono lawyer to fight their corner. It is nothing short of scandalous that they’ve been kicked in the teeth this season and could potentially be barred from promotion next season. The whole system, the sfa, the spfl and their media chums absolutely stinks. It’s an utter disgrace. They should startvlegak action too haha.. It's time for this whole thing to come crashing down & get a better, more fair, system in place to run things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatsthefuture Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Dazo said: See I don’t get that either. Served papers by who and why ? As far as I can see there is zero reason for anyone to serve those clubs papers. I suspect they’ve had a peek at the papers served on the spfl. They have been specifically named in the document therefore have to be served with these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Hunt Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 24 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said: And the funny thing is that is the best reason given so far!!! You’re not wrong 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartsmad1874 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Agentjambo said: I'm sure their fight will be against us. If its against us i’d love to see their grounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentjambo Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Just now, Heartsmad1874 said: If its against us i’d love to see their grounds What's their grounds against SPFL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjcc Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 BIt disappointed the petition isn’t in comic sans TBH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zakred Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Just now, Agentjambo said: What's their grounds against SPFL? Incompetance!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said: I think the SPFL under Doncaster genuinely don't realise how big a club Hearts is in Scottish terms. He's so preoccupied with the Old Firm. I mean, if Peter Lawell had passed him a contact willing to invest millions in Scottish football he would have been straight on the phone to him. Because it came from Budge and Hearts he pretty much ignored it. He's seriously underestimated how well-resourced, prepared and up for a fight we are over this. I'm not sure. I think Doncaster and Lawwell (who is a cancer) know Ann is formidable. They've had run ins, notably over that semi final debacle when the Polls got involved. D Doncaster was made to look an arse. That will not have been firgotten. I genuinely believe personal dislike has been at play here and you shouldn't let that get in the way of business or you make bad choices and lose focus. DONCASTER with help from his pal, the devil in disguise, has almost destroyed the game. It's been here a lot longer than you,Peter Lawwell. You are just passing g through Edited June 19, 2020 by Riccarton3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo66 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, Blackshades said: Raith certainly can't but not so sure about utd and im sure cove are well financed by Aberdeen business men If they lose, their costs will be huge and they will then need to consider raising an action themselves for compensation against the SPFL should their promotions be overturned. I suspect they will be well advised to let the SPFL defend this one so they keep all their pieces of silver for their own court action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David McCaig Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 40 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Thanks for the document. I'll add it to my repository of SPFL cock ups. The document is actually fairly concise in comparison to other petitions I have seen. It sets out the pertinent legal issues and thankfully ignores the emotive side issues such as the WhatsApp exchanges, bullying accusations and he said/she said stuff. Les Gray is quite prominent though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 29 minutes ago, sprinbox98 said: Have to say I’m a bit surprised that Gilson Gray are our legal counsel on a case of this magnitude. Not the best guys to represent us (personal opinion) They will simply be the Instructing Solicitor who will engage Counsel on behalf of the Club. They will also be responsible for the proper and timely lodgement of papers with the Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMFC01 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Anything2 said: What would be hilarious is if the court said that relegation isn't allowed and we get reinstated. The 3 non promoted clubs then put forward a resolution to reconstruct the leagues and we vote against it saying it's time to draw a line under this whole affair and move on. "Now's not the time", "Is it temporary, no thanks", "Take your medicine". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anything2 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, gnasher75 said: So is this right? Hearts and Thistle are making the argument that the decision to relegate clubs is unfair because it was taken on the basis of false information; the vote didn't actually carry anyway; and it is damaging to member clubs. If this goes to court, one strong possibility is that both relegation and promotion will be deemed unlawful. Hearts and Thistle have given early warning to the promoted clubs (which is normal practice) of the possible outcome in the hope that their legal advisers will recognise the strength of the case against the SPFL. The best and least expensive outcome for all clubs is for the "champion" clubs to petition the rest of the SPFL clubs to try to find another solution, namely reconstruction, and to avoid going to court. Hearts and Thistle can now watch and wait to see what compromise may be proposed - most likely an EGM and vote on 14-10-10-10. Another possible option that could be imposed by the courts would be a play off between Hearts and United, Raith and Partick, Stranraer and Cove Rangers. But it is difficult to see when these games could be played. All 6 clubs would prefer reconstruction than run the risk of losing a play off. For all that it is fun being universally hated (unfairly), it might be a good time for Hearts to be reaching out to United, Raith and Cove to say actually we are all in this together. I actually think that is part of Ann Budge's strategy. This is the only sensible move they have now. They could still win the court case of course but it's a massive gamble that no reasonable person would take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 I am wondering why clubs in the play off positions haven't made more noise? Wonder if we can get clubs to turn on each other. Or maybe that'll happen anyway because the discussion of who can actually play and who can't is still to be had. Even in the top flight. But Championship will be even more of a problem as the October start date ticks closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Sanchez Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 It begs the question...why didn't The Rangers pursue this? Did they even find it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boof Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 'hereinbefore' - that's a new one for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboelite Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 47 minutes ago, Footballfirst said: Thanks for the document. I'll add it to my repository of SPFL cock ups. The document is actually fairly concise in comparison to other petitions I have seen. It sets out the pertinent legal issues and thankfully ignores the emotive side issues such as the WhatsApp exchanges, bullying accusations and he said/she said stuff. Whats your overall take on it FF having seen enough legal docs in your time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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