The rise and fall of The SNP.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Candy said:

It was to replace council tax with an income based tax.

 

I remember working out at the time that me, staying on my own,  in a tiny 1 bedroom flat could be paying more than a large family because I had the temerity to have worked hard to get where I was in life.

Does seem unfair if that’s what would have happened. 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Candy said:

It was to replace council tax with an income based tax.

 

I remember working out at the time that me, staying on my own,  in a tiny 1 bedroom flat could be paying more than a large family because I had the temerity to have worked hard to get where I was in life.

It was to replace the council tax and if that’s correct then that can never be right. 
The whole taxing system needs overhauled. It’ll be finding the right way though and in Scotland particularly everything is so partisan it’s hard to get past the noise and see what things mean at times. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by jack D and coke

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, Candy said:

It was to replace council tax with an income based tax.

 

I remember working out at the time that me, staying on my own,  in a tiny 1 bedroom flat could be paying more than a large family because I had the temerity to have worked hard to get where I was in life.

There's nothing negative about taxing people based on their income, it's by far the fairest way I can think of.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

There's nothing negative about taxing people based on their income, it's by far the fairest way I can think of.

Fair enough. Thats a view held by some.

 

People who earn more do pay more income tax already

 

Council tax pays for services that I would use less than a large family would 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Candy said:

Fair enough. Thats a view held by some.

 

People who earn more do pay more income tax already

 

Council tax pays for services that I would use less than a large family would 

Perhaps I should have said proportionately. 

 

Income tax also pays for services  that you would use less than a large family via the government but so what?

The limited difference between what the poor and rich pay in council tax is a disgrace, look at the difference between the top and bottom bands and what they represent income wise.

 

Not many actively want to pay more, that's normal, but it would undoubtedly be fairer to spread the burden.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Perhaps I should have said proportionately. 

 

Income tax also pays for services  that you would use less than a large family via the government but so what?

The limited difference between what the poor and rich pay in council tax is a disgrace, look at the difference between the top and bottom bands and what they represent income wise.

 

Not many actively want to pay more, that's normal, but it would undoubtedly be fairer to spread the burden.

Poor and rich are two extremes.  Like most im in the middle somewhere 

 

Proportionally I would use less local services than a family and as you have said I'd already be paying more income tax for this

[Enzo Chiefo]

47 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Can’t really remember that tbh. Why was it such a bad idea. Sounds like it could get a bit complicated I suppose. 

Because the majority of middle earners would pay more and that wasn't considered a vote winner. And where do you draw the line with it? Should a high earner pay more for a pint - remember them! - than  a lower earner? 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Candy said:

Poor and rich are two extremes.  Like most im in the middle somewhere 

 

Proportionally I would use less local services than a family and as you have said I'd already be paying more income tax for this

 

And I'm clearly not talking about extremes of tax, I'm talking about those who earn more paying more than those who earn less. If the principle's sound on a national level, why not on a local level?

 

There are always winners and losers with any change, I get why you wouldn't personally be keen but that's conservatism for you.

 

I have no problem with the winners being those on the lowest rungs.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Smithee

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Because the majority of middle earners would pay more and that wasn't considered a vote winner. And where do you draw the line with it? Should a high earner pay more for a pint - remember them! - than  a lower earner? 

Very well put.

[Unknown user]

 

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

And where do you draw the line with it? Should a high earner pay more for a pint - remember them! - than  a lower earner? 

That's your argument against a more proportionate distribution of tax burden?

[GinRummy]

40 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Because the majority of middle earners would pay more and that wasn't considered a vote winner. And where do you draw the line with it? Should a high earner pay more for a pint - remember them! - than  a lower earner? 
 

 

 

😀 Tier 2 here bud, pints of Innis & Gunn lager were scooped yesterday afternoon. 
 

I know what you mean though, it’s very difficult to work out a fair taxation system. I always think it could be simplified. Council tax, national insurance and income tax. Just have one tax system with different elements to it, collected by one organisation then distributed accordingly. VAT is a funny one as well, any tax that needs so many different individual industry schemes to make it fairer makes me wonder if it’s fair in the first place. 

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Perhaps I should have said proportionately. 

 

Income tax also pays for services  that you would use less than a large family via the government but so what?

The limited difference between what the poor and rich pay in council tax is a disgrace, look at the difference between the top and bottom bands and what they represent income wise.

 

Not many actively want to pay more, that's normal, but it would undoubtedly be fairer to spread the burden.

 

Define rich.

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

That's your argument against a more proportionate distribution of tax burden?

More proportionate? Fair? Who decides? Arguably, in terms of central govt,  a flat income tax rate is the fairest way as, by definition,  everyone pays the same percentage of their income. However, the top 1% of earners cover the vast majority of the tax take already. But at a local leval, how far down local services do you drill?  Prior to the Poll Tax , an old lady living on her own paid the same rates as a family of 4 working adults in an identical house next door. Fair? Not at all. The Poll Tax rectified that but should a millionaire pay the same as someone on minimum wage?. But then they do in pubs, restaurants, buses etc. Those who pay, usually by scrimping and saving, to send their children to private schools. Is it fair that they pay twice for education? Probably not. But then that brings in other arguments.  There isn't a fair system and no govt will introduce a change that will cost them a large number of votes. 

[Unknown user]

49 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

More proportionate? Fair? Who decides? Arguably, in terms of central govt,  a flat income tax rate is the fairest way as, by definition,  everyone pays the same percentage of their income. However, the top 1% of earners cover the vast majority of the tax take already. But at a local leval, how far down local services do you drill?  Prior to the Poll Tax , an old lady living on her own paid the same rates as a family of 4 working adults in an identical house next door. Fair? Not at all. The Poll Tax rectified that but should a millionaire pay the same as someone on minimum wage?. But then they do in pubs, restaurants, buses etc. Those who pay, usually by scrimping and saving, to send their children to private schools. Is it fair that they pay twice for education? Probably not. But then that brings in other arguments.  There isn't a fair system and no govt will introduce a change that will cost them a large number of votes. 

 

Income tax would have been fairer than poll tax, but to answer your original question, it would stop before pints. At personal taxation.

 

If you earn more you can afford to pay proportionately more, at least compared to those who earn less, it's obvious. 

 

Right now a guy in Falkirk earning a million a year will pay less than 4 times what a minimum wage worker will pay in council tax. Thats not right.

[GinRummy]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Income tax would have been fairer than poll tax, but to answer your original question, it would stop before pints. At personal taxation.

 

If you earn more you can afford to pay proportionately more, at least compared to those who earn less, it's obvious. 

 

Right now a guy in Falkirk earning a million a year will pay less than 4 times what a minimum wage worker will pay in council tax. Thats not right.

The problem the snp has with income tax is the rest of the UK.  If they do anything extreme regarding taxing the rich it’s not as if companies who pay millions a year or people who earn millions a year have far to go to avoid hefty taxes.  

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

The problem the snp has with income tax is the rest of the UK.  If they do anything extreme regarding taxing the rich it’s not as if companies who pay millions a year or people who earn millions a year have far to go to avoid hefty taxes.  

 

There are other countries with more equitable systems, somehow they manage. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

There are other countries with more equitable systems, somehow they manage. 

They do but I don’t think they have as close a relationship as Scotland and the rest of the UK which is my point. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, GinRummy said:

They do but I don’t think they have as close a relationship as Scotland and the rest of the UK which is my point. 

Fair enough, there are plenty who'll stay and pay their due taxes. These threats are usually pretty empty anyway.

There's no two ways about it, things would change and I get that a lot of people just want as little change as possible in life, but I want my vote to mean something and to have a say in Scotland's future. 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough, there are plenty who'll stay and pay their due taxes. These threats are usually pretty empty anyway.

There's no two ways about it, things would change and I get that a lot of people just want as little change as possible in life, but I want my vote to mean something and to have a say in Scotland's future. 

So do I. I just think practically it’s a very difficult balancing act for the snp. Encourage businesses and their highly paid employees to base themselves in Scotland but be fairer to the majority and fund services to the most needy in our society.  Will probably be a careful and slow process, certainly as far as income tax is concerned.  

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

So do I. I just think practically it’s a very difficult balancing act for the snp. Encourage businesses and their highly paid employees to base themselves in Scotland but be fairer to the majority and fund services to the most needy in our society.  Will probably be a careful and slow process, certainly as far as income tax is concerned.  

There's a path to negotiate with a lot of unknowns, no doubt about that.

[Cade]

The UK has one of the most complicated tax systems on the planet.

And that's by design, so that those who can afford to pay a team of accountants can find ways of (legally) avoiding tax.

Those who don't earn enough to hire accountant don't qualify for these tax breaks.

 

This is why a few years back footballers were investing lots of money in independent film studios, because they were getting huge tax relief at the time. This didn't really benefit the studios too much but did benefit their investors hugely.

This is also why TV personalities set up companies named after their children and "hire" themselves out to their "employer" as a "freelance provider of services" as opposed to being an employee, so they only pay corporation tax instead of income tax. They name themselves as director, their pay goes into the Company accounts then they take drawings from that account, only paying income tax on what they draw rather than the whole whack.

This kind of nonsense was what Lorraine Kelly was in court for, and she won because it's fully legal.

 

The entire system is rotten.

 

[jambogemz]

Not an SNP supporter in anyway myself but fair play to them for the recent announcements on free sanitary products as well as free school dinners for all primary children. These should be applauded. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, jambogemz said:

Not an SNP supporter in anyway myself but fair play to them for the recent announcements on free sanitary products as well as free school dinners for all primary children. These should be applauded. 

The free school dinners was a Conservative  idea and the sanitary one was a Labour idea.

 

Both ultimately supported by SNP

[jambogemz]

31 minutes ago, Candy said:

The free school dinners was a Conservative  idea and the sanitary one was a Labour idea.

 

Both ultimately supported by SNP

Fair play. 

 

I don't really keep up with the finer points. 

[Guest]

Just now, jambogemz said:

Fair play. 

 

I don't really keep up with the finer points. 

Both excellent ideas regardless  of who is responsible.  Credit due all round id say

[Governor Tarkin]

[Enzo Chiefo]

10 hours ago, GinRummy said:

 

 

😀 Tier 2 here bud, pints of Innis & Gunn lager were scooped yesterday afternoon. 
 

I know what you mean though, it’s very difficult to work out a fair taxation system. I always think it could be simplified. Council tax, national insurance and income tax. Just have one tax system with different elements to it, collected by one organisation then distributed accordingly. VAT is a funny one as well, any tax that needs so many different individual industry schemes to make it fairer makes me wonder if it’s fair in the first place. 

Enjoy the pints of Innis & Gunn, GR. I've had to make do with their cans over the last few weeks but hopefully that elusive pint is on the horizon😀

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Well Guv, in Scotland, slowly we are creeping towards a society in which everything is given away free, effectively spending our money for us. The more they give away, the more tax will have to be collected.  No such thing as a free lunch. Seriously, we will soon be at the stage where the state hands out beer tokens each week.

[Governor Tarkin]

6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Seriously, we will soon be at the stage where the state hands out beer tokens each week.

 

Beer tokens with nowhere to spend them. 

 

 

We're not in Kansas anymore, Enzo.

[Enzo Chiefo]

10 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Beer tokens with nowhere to spend them. 

 

 

We're not in Kansas anymore, Enzo.

That's the problem Guvnor. Need to stockpile the vouchers until Sturgeon permits the release of the state ale, a 3% Kansas IPA, adorned with a saltire. Can't wait.

[Ron Burgundy]

She didn’t get an easy ride off Andrew Marr this morning. 
Apparently facts and stats don’t tell the real story.

 

 

[Harry Potter]

6 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

She didn’t get an easy ride off Andrew Marr this morning. 
Apparently facts and stats don’t tell the real story.

 

 

Marr the expert right enough.

[Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Harry Potter said:

Marr the expert right enough.

He had all the facts and stats in front of him. 
Who should be questioning her on the Andrew Marr show then?

 

[Harry Potter]

4 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

He had all the facts and stats in front of him. 
Who should be questioning her on the Andrew Marr show then?

 

I missed it , he loves to talk over people, no time for him, anyway what were the stats 

you are on about.

[Ron Burgundy]

2 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

I missed it , he loves to talk over people, no time for him, anyway what were the stats 

you are on about.

A worse death rate than the rest of the UK and lies about still transferring non tested patients from hospitals to care homes. 
Replayed a clip of her telling lies about the Salmond episode with her dates all over the place. 

Attainment gap worse than ever in education. 
 

There’s probably no point in you watching it as you seem to have made up your mind that Andrew Marr shouldn’t even be troubling her with such facts and figures. What does he know eh?

[Harry Potter]

39 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

A worse death rate than the rest of the UK and lies about still transferring non tested patients from hospitals to care homes. 
Replayed a clip of her telling lies about the Salmond episode with her dates all over the place. 

Attainment gap worse than ever in education. 
 

There’s probably no point in you watching it as you seem to have made up your mind that Andrew Marr shouldn’t even be troubling her with such facts and figures. What does he know eh?

Thanks.

[manaliveits105]

How dare Andrew Marr try to get the truth out of our great leader

[Guest]

https://t.co/zrjM7ZOCBI

 

 

[Guest]

https://t.co/0DEvh5JWXF

[Ron Burgundy]

5 minutes ago, Candy said:

https://t.co/zrjM7ZOCBI

 

 

Move along. Nothing to see. 
 

Mr  Tarkins   post quoting Hitler shows exactly how effective and sinister grievance politics can be. 

[Unknown user]

🤣 Hitler, beer tokens. **** me!

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

He had all the facts and stats in front of him. 
Who should be questioning her on the Andrew Marr show then?

 

 

Andrew Neil would be good. 

[coconut doug]

5 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

A worse death rate than the rest of the UK and lies about still transferring non tested patients from hospitals to care homes. 
Replayed a clip of her telling lies about the Salmond episode with her dates all over the place. 

Attainment gap worse than ever in education. 
 

There’s probably no point in you watching it as you seem to have made up your mind that Andrew Marr shouldn’t even be troubling her with such facts and figures. What does he know eh?

 

Do you actually believe that the Covid death rate in Scotland is worse than RUK? Do you really think the statistics shown in the film support this i,e, a four week section.

  The BBC should be pulled up for this nonsense as clearly some people actually do believe their rubbish.

 

What was the lie regarding the transfer of non Covid tested patients from hospital to care homes?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Do you actually believe that the Covid death rate in Scotland is worse than RUK? Do you really think the statistics shown in the film support this i,e, a four week section.

  The BBC should be pulled up for this nonsense as clearly some people actually do believe their rubbish.

 

What was the lie regarding the transfer of non Covid tested patients from hospital to care homes?

She stated that Scotland  has a lower prevelance at the moment than the rest of the UK

 

Figures from the last 4 weeks seem like a perfectly good way to assess the veracity of what she said.

 

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, Candy said:

She stated that Scotland  has a lower prevelance at the moment than the rest of the UK

 

Figures from the last 4 weeks seem like a perfectly good way to assess the veracity of what she said.

 

 

Scotland does have a lower prevalence at the moment. About 70% of the pro rata infection rate.

 

Those figures for deaths over 4 of the last 5 weeks (chosen selectively, most likely) are a particularly bad way to show that Scotland has had a higher death rate than England, which was their assertion. If you want to see which is best look at figures all the way through.

[GinRummy]

36 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Scotland does have a lower prevalence at the moment. About 70% of the pro rata infection rate.

 

Those figures for deaths over 4 of the last 5 weeks (chosen selectively, most likely) are a particularly bad way to show that Scotland has had a higher death rate than England, which was their assertion. If you want to see which is best look at figures all the way through.

Your final sentence sums it up. Quite enjoyed Andrew Neil’s interview today but picking one set of narrow stats to have a dig at her was unacceptable. If people are going to bring stats up let’s see all the stats and ask follow up questions from there. 

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Your final sentence sums it up. Quite enjoyed Andrew Neil’s interview today but picking one set of narrow stats to have a dig at her was unacceptable. If people are going to bring stats up let’s see all the stats and ask follow up questions from there. 

 

Exactly and even more so with stats of this nature where there have been major fluctuations based primarily on the level of lockdown. The BBC does this all the time and they wonder why so many people in Scotland have lost trust with them.

[Justin Z]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

🤣 Hitler, beer tokens. **** me!

 

Absolutely mental.

 

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

The BBC does this all the time and they wonder why so many people in Scotland have lost trust with them.

 

I fully expect self-harm like this to continue, paradoxical as it may seem. Scotland is headed for independence and yoons are shitting bricks about it. Visibly.

[coconut doug]

11 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Absolutely mental.

 

 

I fully expect self-harm like this to continue, paradoxical as it may seem. Scotland is headed for independence and yoons are shitting bricks about it. Visibly.

 

 The BBC and others are already countering popular opinion and trying to lead it away from Indy. Tonight's BBC Scotland's lead story was the Marr interview, skillfully edited not to show the unrepresentative statistics for Covid deaths but presented as if it were a fact. The FM's response shown was the bit where she said there was still a bit to go in the pandemic and that she didn't want to politicise the issue. It made her look as if she were avoiding answering the question rather than point out the vacuous and illegitimate nature of the question which is what she actually did.

 

With the newspaper industry on its knees the BBC are to provide help.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38843461

A disproportionately high level of support for Scotland for some reason and at the same time wanting to cancel the the daily Covid briefings because they clashed with their non existent daytime coverage on the Scotland channel. 

[Governor Tarkin]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

🤣 Hitler, beer tokens. **** me!

 

 

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Absolutely mental.

 

 

I fully expect self-harm like this to continue, paradoxical as it may seem. Scotland is headed for independence and yoons are shitting bricks about it. Visibly.

 

Yoons.

 

 

48 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

 The BBC and others are already countering popular opinion and trying to lead it away from Indy.