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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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coconut doug
Just now, Cruyff said:

There is plenty journal's and articles that you could read from academics that will tell you all you need to know about the SNP and education. The only person here deflecting is yourself. 

 

What am i deflecting from? I'm asking you to substantiate your claim.

 

Do you have any links to these journals from academics. I can think of one from Dundee but the data was suspect to say the least. You claim the SNP tore the educational system apart surely you have something to support this fairly extreme claim.

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Just now, coconut doug said:

 

What am i deflecting from? I'm asking you to substantiate your claim.

 

Do you have any links to these journals from academics. I can think of one from Dundee but the data was suspect to say the least. You claim the SNP tore the educational system apart surely you have something to support this fairly extreme claim.

My claim is substantiated in Journals and Articles. I don't need to back that up to some in-denial SNP cultist who cannot handle an attack on his useless party. 

I'm sure you are more than capable of finding articles and journals yourself that are not from the National or Wings. 

 

Signed, former card carrying member of the SNP for over a decade 👍 

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3 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

My claim is substantiated in Journals and Articles. I don't need to back that up to some in-denial SNP cultist who cannot handle an attack on his useless party. 

I'm sure you are more than capable of finding articles and journals yourself that are not from the National or Wings. 

 

Signed, former card carrying member of the SNP for over a decade 👍 

I'm not into the snp but I do support independence.

What are we talking about here, in what way have the snp torn the education system apart?

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coconut doug
2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

My claim is substantiated in Journals and Articles. I don't need to back that up to some in-denial SNP cultist who cannot handle an attack on his useless party. 

I'm sure you are more than capable of finding articles and journals yourself that are not from the National or Wings. 

 

Signed, former card carrying member of the SNP for over a decade 👍 

 

I've never been a member and i don't even like many of them. What i do think is right though, is that people such as yourself who make strong derogatory comments about something should have the ability and the courtesy to at least attempt to justify their opinion. If not the whole thing just degenerates into a shouting match with insults flying around.

 

Actually i've read lots of articles on education in Scotland by a wide range of commentators and academics who come to a variety of conclusions on a number of issues and all i've done here is ask you why you take the view you do and as yet you have not attempted to tell us. 

 

Let's hear why you think the SNP have torn Scottish education apart and if you can't do that perhaps you could provide a link to somebody who has.

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2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

I've never been a member and i don't even like many of them. What i do think is right though, is that people such as yourself who make strong derogatory comments about something should have the ability and the courtesy to at least attempt to justify their opinion. If not the whole thing just degenerates into a shouting match with insults flying around.

 

Actually i've read lots of articles on education in Scotland by a wide range of commentators and academics who come to a variety of conclusions on a number of issues and all i've done here is ask you why you take the view you do and as yet you have not attempted to tell us. 

 

Let's hear why you think the SNP have torn Scottish education apart and if you can't do that perhaps you could provide a link to somebody who has.

I've told you what I think. I don't need to justify it to partisans. 👍 

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46 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I'm not into the snp but I do support independence.

What are we talking about here, in what way have the snp torn the education system apart?

They implemented the "curriculum for excellence" and it has shown a considerable drop in education standards in Scotland. 

 

Like yourself, still very much a supporter of Independence but the SNP need to go and get ****ed. They couldn't organise a bum raid in a barracks. 

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2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

They implemented the "curriculum for excellence" and it has shown a considerable drop in education standards in Scotland. 

 

Like yourself, still very much a supporter of Independence but the SNP need to go and get ****ed. They couldn't organise a bum raid in a barracks. 

I genuinely don't know much about this, I was abroad for years and don't have kids so it's just not on my radar as much as other stuff. Torn apart seems strong though

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coconut doug
9 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I've told you what I think. I don't need to justify it to partisans. 👍 

 

 

 

If you are unable to support your opinion and you don't want to discuss it with me then fair enough . 

 

BTW Cruyff was rubbish. The Germans tore them apart in the 1974 final.

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Dawnrazor
Just now, Smithee said:

 Torn apart seems strong though

It probably was a bit strong but education has suffered since the SNP have been in charge, there's plenty results to show this.

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SectionFJambo

Since the SNP have been in charge standards for all devolved issues (i.e. the ones they control) have suffered, health, education, crime. However lets ignore all that and focus on the stuff they can blame the UK Gov for.

 

Just the other day the Finance Sec was on radio and was doing quite well by SNP standards until the point she was asked about fiscal policy for repayment of all the debt taken to pay for the furlough extension she had demanded and basically replied that's the UK's problem.  Really poor and sums them up. What suits us is our issue and everything else we will blame someone else.

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SectionFJambo

That's the UK governments fault as if they let them open up drug consumption facilities it would all be fine ;)

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Space Mackerel
On 05/11/2020 at 17:12, Fun Boaby said:

How do you figure he's a "stooge"


I think when he quoted sub Saharan education in Scotland he was referring to people like you pal. 

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Dawnrazor
8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


I think when he quoted sub Saharan education in Scotland he was referring to people like you pal. 

He never quoted sub saharan education, he quoted it as life expectancy. 

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4 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

If you are unable to support your opinion and you don't want to discuss it with me then fair enough . 

 

BTW Cruyff was rubbish. The Germans tore them apart in the 1974 final.

I think you're being seriously obtuse. You know fine and well that there is widespread critism across the board when it comes to the much fabled "Cirriculum for excellence". Not only from those from a Unionist persuasion but from Academics within the sphere of Education, Professors and Dr. 's alike. Even the National has published articles which have openly criticised the SNP on Education. It' s hardly a topic that needs to be evidenced in discussion. 

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29 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

He never quoted sub saharan education, he quoted it as life expectancy. 

In the case he might be right 🤑

Edited by Fun Boaby
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Dawnrazor
Just now, Fun Boaby said:

In the case he might be right 

Yep!! That thought had crossed my mind😆

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36 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I think you're being seriously obtuse. You know fine and well that there is widespread critism across the board when it comes to the much fabled "Cirriculum for excellence". Not only from those from a Unionist persuasion but from Academics within the sphere of Education, Professors and Dr. 's alike. Even the National has published articles which have openly criticised the SNP on Education. It' s hardly a topic that needs to be evidenced in discussion. 

It could be the SNP long game. An uneducated electorate is more likely to be attracted to the independence unicorn.

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1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Not to mention the dreadful drugs stats under their watch 

 

Tbh, drugs is a reserved matter. Results from Switzerland, Portugal and the Netherlands seem to support a radically different approach than is being pursued by the UK. 

 

Criticising the SNP on this is a bit daft. Wasn't Edinburgh the centre of an aids epidemic in the 80s? Seems a cultural problem which has been ingrained into our country for decades. Continuing to be hamstrung on this is causing more harm than good. Criticising them for failing to change something which they have no power to change I can't really get on board with. 

 

You want to talk about Humza's hate crime bill, the GRA, Education (to an extent) I'm with you all the way. 

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coconut doug
12 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I think you're being seriously obtuse. You know fine and well that there is widespread critism across the board when it comes to the much fabled "Cirriculum for excellence". Not only from those from a Unionist persuasion but from Academics within the sphere of Education, Professors and Dr. 's alike. Even the National has published articles which have openly criticised the SNP on Education. It' s hardly a topic that needs to be evidenced in discussion. 

 

I am not being obtuse, on this occasion at least. I know CforE has had lots of criticism from a range of sources but i also know that it is a rare example of a government policy that is supported by all parties in the Scottish parliament. It was a Labour idea widely supported by academics and other interested groups. I'm not aware that the political parties have withdrawn their support for CforE and i'm not particularly aware of any systemic problems created by CforE i.e. things that might tear education apart. I'm not really arguing for CforE, i'm asking where is the culpability for the SNP.

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Weakened Offender
Just now, SectionFJambo said:

 

Do folk actually still smack their children in any sort of numbers to make it worth banning? 

 

Yes. 

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SectionFJambo

Any evidence or stats?

Also going to suggest the sort of scum who do it won't care about a law telling them not too. 

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Weakened Offender
Just now, SectionFJambo said:

Any evidence or stats?

Also going to suggest the sort of scum who do it won't care about a law telling them not too. 

 

Fortunately people like you don't make laws then. 😉

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Weakened Offender
2 minutes ago, SectionFJambo said:

Good old SNP attitude there.

 

You're running rings around me here. I can barely keep up with you. 😁

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Seymour M Hersh
42 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

You're running rings around me here. I can barely keep up with you. 😁

 

Well it is pretty easy to do. 

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Weakened Offender
6 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Well it is pretty easy to do. 

 

Examples please. 

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Seymour M Hersh
Just now, Weakened Offender said:

 

I'm here all day. 😊

 

Offending all weekend it seems.

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Weakened Offender
Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Offending all weekend it seems.

 

People who get offended on the Internet aren't worth bothering about too much pal. 😊

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Seymour M Hersh
3 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

People who get offended on the Internet aren't worth bothering about too much pal. 😊

 

It's in your name.

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Space Mackerel
On 06/11/2020 at 21:17, Dawnrazor said:

He never quoted sub saharan education, he quoted it as life expectancy. 


The Union has a life expectancy less than sub Sahara now. 

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Dawnrazor
4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


The Union has a life expectancy less than sub Sahara now. 

Sub Sahara will have a life expectancy of the rest of the world, you  ever thought that one through did you?😆

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Weakened Offender
On 06/11/2020 at 16:33, Cruyff said:

I've told you what I think. I don't need to justify it to partisans. 👍 

 

 

 

You can't justify it. It was a moronic statement. 

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1 minute ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

You can't justify it. It was a moronic statement. 

I could justify it. Easily, but I don't need to. I can view things objectively and I'll say it again. The SNP have made an erse of Scottish education. 👍 

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Brighton Jambo
11 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I could justify it. Easily, but I don't need to. I can view things objectively and I'll say it again. The SNP have made an erse of Scottish education. 👍 

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2019-12-03/new-figures-show-long-term-education-decline-as-scotland-falls-behind-england

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/03/scottish-education-stagnating-mediocrity-record-low-maths-science/amp/

Edited by Brighton Jambo
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30 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Prof. of Education Policy at Edinburgh University, Lindsay Paterson has torn the SNP to shreds on their Education Policy. Plenty of journals and research papers by him on the subject. 

 

https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/en/persons/lindsay-paterson(7f0888ac-8c7a-48d5-96ad-2a617053d2e9)/publications.html?page=0&pageSize=all

 

Scotlands Cirriculum for Excellence: A betrayal of a whole generation? - Prof. Lindsay Paterson (2018)

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/curriculum-for-excellence/

 

"SNP shamed by global schools survey" 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1212724/snp-scottish-schools-news-survey

 

Prof. Jim Scott of Education at Dundee University finds that the "Cirriculum for Excellence" has had "a negative impact on pupils".

 

A link from their favourite propaganda rag. 

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18019298.curriculum-excellence-negative-impact-pupils-report-claims/

 

As I said, don't really need to justify it.

 

What do Professors of Education know? 

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coconut doug
54 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Prof. of Education Policy at Edinburgh University, Lindsay Paterson has torn the SNP to shreds on their Education Policy. Plenty of journals and research papers by him on the subject. 

 

https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/en/persons/lindsay-paterson(7f0888ac-8c7a-48d5-96ad-2a617053d2e9)/publications.html?page=0&pageSize=all

 

Scotlands Cirriculum for Excellence: A betrayal of a whole generation? - Prof. Lindsay Paterson (2018)

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/curriculum-for-excellence/

 

"SNP shamed by global schools survey" 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1212724/snp-scottish-schools-news-survey

 

Prof. Jim Scott of Education at Dundee University finds that the "Cirriculum for Excellence" has had "a negative impact on pupils".

 

A link from their favourite propaganda rag. 

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18019298.curriculum-excellence-negative-impact-pupils-report-claims/

 

As I said, don't really need to justify it.

 

What do Professors of Education know? 

 

What do Pisa know? https://www.tes.com/news/scottish-pupils-among-top-performers-new-pisa-test

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Roxy Hearts

I prefer to use my own personal judgement when analysing education. My daughter is at Uni as are most of her friends and they had a brilliant education at both primary and secondary. 3 of my grandkids are at school and they love it. In my experience I don't think education is as poor as it's portrayed but then again anything the SNP do is bad for some. 

 

They're the government and make mistakes but it's not all negative.

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Dawnrazor
1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I prefer to use my own personal judgement when analysing education. My daughter is at Uni as are most of her friends and they had a brilliant education at both primary and secondary. 3 of my grandkids are at school and they love it. In my experience I don't think education is as poor as it's portrayed but then again anything the SNP do is bad for some. 

 

They're the government and make mistakes but it's not all negative.

That's a fair comment and I'm glad your family have done well and enjoyed thier education, but the fugures point to a drop in education standards across the board under the SNP.

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8 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I prefer to use my own personal judgement when analysing education. My daughter is at Uni as are most of her friends and they had a brilliant education at both primary and secondary. 3 of my grandkids are at school and they love it. In my experience I don't think education is as poor as it's portrayed but then again anything the SNP do is bad for some. 

 

They're the government and make mistakes but it's not all negative.

So would I and I'd say the way kids are taught now, is extremely poor in comparison to how me and my sister were taught. 

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Roxy Hearts
5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's a fair comment and I'm glad your family have done well and enjoyed thier education, but the fugures point to a drop in education standards across the board under the SNP.

They probably have but I think, like many things in life, it's about getting a balance and adapting to changes. Education has changed so much due to becoming more digitally orientated. Kids are more adept with devices, computers etc and most I know are fairly switched on, so to speak.

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Roxy Hearts
Just now, Cruyff said:

So would I and I'd say the way kids are taught now, is extremely poor in comparison to how me and my sister were taught. 

I agree but education is changing all the time. It's more challenging in the classroom I would expect!

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coconut doug
8 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Pisa :rofl:how did I know that was going to be rolled out.

 

Hiya John Swinney, hiya pal 👋

 Actually i agree it's not the best comparison but the poster backing you up rolled it out first.

 

Nevertheless Pisa performance has been used by many as proof that the quality of Scottish Education is declining. What we have here is Scotland among the best in the world for educational outcomes that are given a higher priority in C for E. 

 

The Jim Scott research has been widely rubbished not least for it's methodology i'm more inclined to support Paterson's views which are more fundamental and probably more scathing. Nevertheless there is a question about what education is for and what form it should take and as far as i know there is agreement across all parties in Scotland as far as curriculum for excellence is concerned. Instilling more rigor into our assessment system was opposed by all parties apart from the SNP despite this having been frequently called for by the Tories and Paterson.

 

I'm not sure how much educational attainment has changed over the years, very little as far as i can see but generally very modest improvement. How this is translated into the SNP trashing education is the difficulty for me. Change has happened with the support of other political parties and educational professionals if they didn't like the idea why did they sign up to it in the first place?

 

The John Swinney comment is silly. 

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coconut doug
14 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's a fair comment and I'm glad your family have done well and enjoyed thier education, but the fugures point to a drop in education standards across the board under the SNP.

 

Where about?

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