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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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Roxy Hearts
4 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

Six year's after Indy and the economic damage from that IMO, outside the EU (no maybe about it) and the UK while having more punitive borrowing costs (What currency?) as we are a new nation so to speak, then lockdown hits and huge unemployment to come.

 

Yep, I'm thankful we voted No in 2014 and so should you be.

 

 

I'm sure every country would love to be governed by London and their generosity! They are all in thrall to their political nous. Ireland can't wait to get back! Scotland could borrow with all its assets and resources if necessary. EU happy to include Scotland so I'm sure they are aware of our economic power. 

 

I'm not thankful we voted No. We're being held back for the benefit of Westminster. 

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On 20/07/2020 at 08:23, AlphonseCapone said:

I've never understood why Scotland must be run at break even at all times while the same people never say anything about massive Westminster debt. Is it only bad if it's Scottish?

 

The last I saw, on average each household in Britain paid an average of around £2,000 per year in taxes to finance the interest on our borrowings, although that was based on 900 billion of debt and its doubled since then. 

 

1.8 trillion pounds of debt.

£1,800,000,000,000+ and growing.

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3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I've never understood why Scotland must be run at break even at all times while the same people never say anything about massive Westminster debt. Is it only bad if it's Scottish?

 

The last I saw, on average each household in Britain paid an average of around £2,000 per year in taxes to finance the interest on our borrowings, although that was based on 900 billion of debt and its doubled since then. 

 

1.8 trillion pounds of debt.

£1,800,000,000,000+ and growing.

 

Plus, every sovereign state (or union) has the power to print money. What your numbers reflect is a lack of political will. Governments would rather sacrifice thousands of pounds of each household's money per year than pursue monetary policy that would pay the interest and/or debt off through sustainable increases in the money supply.

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1 hour ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

How do you think we'd have handled dealing with Covid and the economic shock born from that with our deficit outside the EU and UK?

 

I'm personally glad we are part of the UK right now.

Coped like any other first world economic nation.

Be glad all you want but let's not pretend Scotland isnt economically viable without England .

 

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jack D and coke
38 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Spot on, at least partially and quite possibly entirely counterfactual.

It used to make me angry that every single conversation about Scotland, it’s how quickly we’d literally fall apart if not in the union. I

21 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Plus, every sovereign state (or union) has the power to print money. What your numbers reflect is a lack of political will. Governments would rather sacrifice thousands of pounds of each household's money per year than pursue monetary policy that would pay the interest and/or debt off through sustainable increases in the money supply.

The biggest gripe I have is why they are allowed to go on like a deficit is a terrible thing. You actually need one, this isn’t the same as running a household budget. A surplus is a government taking money out of their economy a deficit is a government investing yet this is allowed to go unchallenged and actually used as a stick to beat us. 
Do they believe the UK is ever paying that deficit back? Look at America’s debt! It’s ****ing telephone numbers :lol: 
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/14011/debt/effects-of-a-budget-surplus/

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Roxy Hearts
1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

It used to make me angry that every single conversation about Scotland, it’s how quickly we’d literally fall apart if not in the union. I

The biggest gripe I have is why they are allowed to go on like a deficit is a terrible thing. You actually need one, this isn’t the same as running a household budget. A surplus is a government taking money out of their economy a deficit is a government investing yet this is allowed to go unchallenged and actually used as a stick to beat us. 
Do they believe the UK is ever paying that deficit back? Look at America’s debt! 
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/14011/debt/effects-of-a-budget-surplus/

They use everything to beat Scotland with but never question Westminster for anything! Debt, deficit, assets, resources etc. It's how we best manage it all and surely that's ourselves. 

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

They use everything to beat Scotland with but never question Westminster for anything! Debt, deficit, assets, resources etc. It's how we best manage it all and surely that's ourselves. 

True dat👍🏼

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33 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

They use everything to beat Scotland with but never question Westminster for anything! Debt, deficit, assets, resources etc. It's how we best manage it all and surely that's ourselves. 

Kens the score

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52 minutes ago, jake said:

Coped like any other first world economic nation.

Be glad all you want but let's not pretend Scotland isnt economically viable without England .

 

Too poor, too weak, too stupid

 

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Marty Byrde
34 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

They use everything to beat Scotland with but never question Westminster for anything! Debt, deficit, assets, resources etc. It's how we best manage it all and surely that's ourselves. 

 

On that note not everything about living in the UK is terrible and the only way to fix anything is Independence!

 

Ultimately everyone wants Scotland to do well as we all live here. You'd have to be a particular type of knob to not want that for yourself and family. How you see that being created or maintained, well, here we are.

 

 

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Marty Byrde
1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Too poor, too weak, too stupid

 

 

Possibly the worst aspect of the debate is drivel like this. 

 

It's about what's better for Scotland.

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Roxy Hearts
9 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

On that note not everything about living in the UK is terrible and the only way to fix anything is Independence!

 

Ultimately everyone wants Scotland to do well as we all live here. You'd have to be a particular type of knob to not want that for yourself and family. How you see that being created or maintained, well, here we are.

 

 

I don't trust Westminster to put Scotland and its people first. I don't trust them to do what's best for us living here. I believe we can do better and forge a different way that benefits all of Scotland as well as choose the government that is best aligned to our needs. 

 

I except there is good and bad in the UK but would prefer more democracy for Scotland eg. voting for governments we voted for! 

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11 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

Possibly the worst aspect of the debate is drivel like this. 

 

It's about what's better for Scotland.

Its also about a bullshit perspective, I stand by it.

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Weakened Offender
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

I've never understood why Scotland must be run at break even at all times while the same people never say anything about massive Westminster debt. Is it only bad if it's Scottish?

 

The last I saw, on average each household in Britain paid an average of around £2,000 per year in taxes to finance the interest on our borrowings, although that was based on 900 billion of debt and its doubled since then. 

 

1.8 trillion pounds of debt.

£1,800,000,000,000+ and growing.

 

There's a difference between you understanding that and some complete, moronic teapot who thinks they're actually still in a union of equals understanding it. 😁

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SwindonJambo
4 hours ago, Smithee said:

I've never understood why Scotland must be run at break even at all times while the same people never say anything about massive Westminster debt. Is it only bad if it's Scottish?

 

The last I saw, on average each household in Britain paid an average of around £2,000 per year in taxes to finance the interest on our borrowings, although that was based on 900 billion of debt and its doubled since then. 

 

1.8 trillion pounds of debt.

£1,800,000,000,000+ and growing.

 

I don't think it's the case that it would have to be run at breakeven at all times. Few, if any countries in the World do that!

 

A definite challenge it would have in the early years of independence would be the lack of a credit history. It would be assigned some sort of default credit rating to start with which would make borrowing relatively expensive. 

Scotland would have to run a fairly tight ship in its early years to gain the confidence of the markets. If it does, a decent credit rating would be earned after a few years and borrowing would become cheaper.

 

Currency wise, continuing with the pound for a transitional period would be sensible. Longer term I hope the plan is for Scotland to establish its own currency and Central Bank. Then it can pursue its own independent monetary policy.  Please please FFS don't join the Euro!. It's a German racket and the Deutschmark in disguise.

 

With the UK's departure (2nd biggest net donor) and the admission of poorer countries, the EU isn't going to be the grants bonanza it once was so a Norway style EEA type relationship might be worth considering. 

 

I've said before that I tend towards the Union (largely because of where I live) but I'm a realist and I can see the way opinion's moving. Scotland can go it alone for sure if it so chooses and I hope it goes as well as possible if it happens. But there will certainly be early challenges, not least the 'divorce' settlement from rUK which will make Brexit like a tea party! Absolutely no reason not to take the plunge if it's what people want though.

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Montgomery Brewster
42 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

I don't think it's the case that it would have to be run at breakeven at all times. Few, if any countries in the World do that!

 

A definite challenge it would have in the early years of independence would be the lack of a credit history. It would be assigned some sort of default credit rating to start with which would make borrowing relatively expensive. 

Scotland would have to run a fairly tight ship in its early years to gain the confidence of the markets. If it does, a decent credit rating would be earned after a few years and borrowing would become cheaper.

 

Currency wise, continuing with the pound for a transitional period would be sensible. Longer term I hope the plan is for Scotland to establish its own currency and Central Bank. Then it can pursue its own independent monetary policy.  Please please FFS don't join the Euro!. It's a German racket and the Deutschmark in disguise.

 

With the UK's departure (2nd biggest net donor) and the admission of poorer countries, the EU isn't going to be the grants bonanza it once was so a Norway style EEA type relationship might be worth considering. 

 

I've said before that I tend towards the Union (largely because of where I live) but I'm a realist and I can see the way opinion's moving. Scotland can go it alone for sure if it so chooses and I hope it goes as well as possible if it happens. But there will certainly be early challenges, not least the 'divorce' settlement from rUK which will make Brexit like a tea party! Absolutely no reason not to take the plunge if it's what people want though.

No plunge required. Scotland is

the last colony of the English empire. 
 

some decent points.

 

remember if countries like Ireland can have the fastest growing gdp in Europe With a fraction of the natural resources of Scotland , then I am sure Scotland will be just fine.

 

People need to put down their copies of the daily mail and start looking forward to the type of fairer country that we can become.

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Montgomery Brewster
5 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm sure every country would love to be governed by London and their generosity! They are all in thrall to their political nous. Ireland can't wait to get back! Scotland could borrow with all its assets and resources if necessary. EU happy to include Scotland so I'm sure they are aware of our economic power. 

 

I'm not thankful we voted No. We're being held back for the benefit of Westminster. 

Correct. 
 

Shocking cringe mentality . Scotland is the last colony of the English empire. 
 

what your typical empire folk forget is that NO COUNTRY  which has returned to its natural Sovereign state has ever asked or wanted to rejoin their empire. FACT. 
 


 

 

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SwindonJambo
8 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

No plunge required. Scotland is

the last colony of the English empire. 
 

some decent points.

 

remember if countries like Ireland can have the fastest growing gdp in Europe With a fraction of the natural resources of Scotland , then I am sure Scotland will be just fine.

 

People need to put down their copies of the daily mail and start looking forward to the type of fairer country that we can become.

I despise the Daily Mail. 

 

The Irish economy struggled horribly for decades until the early 90s, haemorrhaging citizens in droves. It's in very good shape now but its path to get there was slow.

 

 

It is a historic fact that Scotland benefited enormously from the British Empire and played a very active part in it, after previously being very poor. We are just as responsible for the wrongs of empire as the English, something neither of us should be proud of. Let's not rewrite history. It's why the Glasgow shipbuilding industry boomed and many of its city centre streets are named after slave owners. Even if Scotland does go independent, it cannot and should not conceal the part it played.

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4 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

I despise the Daily Mail. 

 

The Irish economy struggled horribly for decades until the early 90s, haemorrhaging citizens in droves. It's in very good shape now but its path to get there was slow.

 

 

It is a historic fact that Scotland benefited enormously from the British Empire and played a very active part in it, after previously being very poor. We are just as responsible for the wrongs of empire as the English, something neither of us should be proud of. Let's not rewrite history. It's why the Glasgow shipbuilding industry boomed and many of its city centre streets are named after slave owners. Even if Scotland does go independent, it cannot and should not conceal the part it played.

Why would we. But your very poor statement is, in fact very poor. Scotland was fine, the capitalists lost their fortune and Scotland was imprisoned because of it. 

Oh and again, as it is well known, the common folk of the British Isles didn't own or run slaves, and neither have you or I. The Moggs, Johnson and Goves did.

 

As for Scotland benefits fro. EMPIRE, how long did that take and just remember The people of Scotland were fecking raging about losing their country to England, so much so, that there was riots and unrest for over half a century. 

 

 

Oh and Edinburgh has many on the Slave compensation list as well. And just like Glasgow, and many English towns and Cities, no kant from the streets are on these lists.

 

Before I go to work. When will people get it into their heads that you and I were treated like shit too. Thousands of Scots and Irish were shipped to the Caribbean anaw, but hey, I'm sure you'll tell me they were slaves. 

 

Scotland was stripped of everything, except it sense of self, and that sense will be the driving force that bring her back from this arranged marriage. 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Nicky wearing a red suit today :interehjrling:

See the girl with the red dress on.

 

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fancy a brew
11 hours ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

No plunge required. Scotland is

the last colony of the English empire. 
 

some decent points.

 

remember if countries like Ireland can have the fastest growing gdp in Europe With a fraction of the natural resources of Scotland , then I am sure Scotland will be just fine.

 

People need to put down their copies of the daily mail and start looking forward to the type of fairer country that we can become.

 

You're not alone in holding Ireland up as an example for Scotland to follow, but Ireland has taken advantage of the EU's financial setup to attract corporations to funnel their profits there with low tax rates. This gives the impression that the economy is doing great, but it's not quite so simple. Although the Exchequer obviously benefits, there's no effect for the average punter's wage packet.

The headline figures look very rosy for Ireland,with average income per head $62000 compared to $42000 for the UK.

 

https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

 

 

However the median income is $25000 compared to $31000 for the UK. So not the land of milk and honey that some would have you believe. 

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country

 

Rather strangely Ireland have won a court case to stop Apple having to pay them more tax.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-53416206

 

An independent Scotland that rejoins the EU, would likely see corporate taxes disappearing over the Irish sea.

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See if Russia did interfere with Indy ref 1 what does this actually mean? Does this give the SNP any more reason to push for a second referendum? 

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manaliveits105

No would have thought any Russians interference inflated the yes figures - Russia wanted UK split and Salmond in power 

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1 hour ago, fancy a brew said:

 

You're not alone in holding Ireland up as an example for Scotland to follow, but Ireland has taken advantage of the EU's financial setup to attract corporations to funnel their profits there with low tax rates. This gives the impression that the economy is doing great, but it's not quite so simple. Although the Exchequer obviously benefits, there's no effect for the average punter's wage packet.

The headline figures look very rosy for Ireland,with average income per head $62000 compared to $42000 for the UK.

 

https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

 

 

However the median income is $25000 compared to $31000 for the UK. So not the land of milk and honey that some would have you believe. 

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country

 

Rather strangely Ireland have won a court case to stop Apple having to pay them more tax.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-53416206

 

An independent Scotland that rejoins the EU, would likely see corporate taxes disappearing over the Irish sea.

Ireland has been an economic basket case for all but a couple of decades since partition and has relied heavily on its special relationship with the UK more than once to avoid Economic collapse. People seem to have forgotten the 14 billion bailout in 2008 when they were hours from ruin. 

 

Of course an independent Scotland can be an Economic success but even the SNP's own report said it could take 20 years to recover from the economic impact of independence. They SG are currently stating that Covid will be an Economic disaster that will take 7-10 years to put right.

 

How well NS says Wash your hands, stay at home and wear a mask in shops might be enough to make people take the independence plunge, but I would be leaning towards furlough, Quantitative easing and the UK market advantages at least until we know just how bad its going to get. 

 

 

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SwindonJambo
7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Why would we. But your very poor statement is, in fact very poor. Scotland was fine, the capitalists lost their fortune and Scotland was imprisoned because of it. 

Oh and again, as it is well known, the common folk of the British Isles didn't own or run slaves, and neither have you or I. The Moggs, Johnson and Goves did.

 

As for Scotland benefits fro. EMPIRE, how long did that take and just remember The people of Scotland were fecking raging about losing their country to England, so much so, that there was riots and unrest for over half a century. 

 

 

Oh and Edinburgh has many on the Slave compensation list as well. And just like Glasgow, and many English towns and Cities, no kant from the streets are on these lists.

 

Before I go to work. When will people get it into their heads that you and I were treated like shit too. Thousands of Scots and Irish were shipped to the Caribbean anaw, but hey, I'm sure you'll tell me they were slaves. 

 

Scotland was stripped of everything, except it sense of self, and that sense will be the driving force that bring her back from this arranged marriage. 

 

 

 

 

There’s absolutely no doubt that skulduggery was involved in the creation of the union in the first place and it was opposed by the majority of the ordinary populace. There was no referendum back then. The prosperity arrived decades after the initial union for sure.

 

Scotland was far from fine before the union. It was dirt poor, violent, bereft of opportunity and losing people to emigration in their droves.  You are correct that People outside the cosseted gentry and elite were treated like shit, as they were in every country on the planet and outside the developed world, they still are today unfortunately. 

 

And yes it was the landed elite of both Scotland and England who benefited most from the ill gotten spoils of empire. The elite of every country on the planet hoover up most of the  wealth unfortunately. It happens everywhere and it would almost certainly happen before long  in an Indy Scotland unfortunately. 

 

I am quite neutral and open minded about the whole thing to be honest and would sincerely hope that an independent Scotland prospers if it happens. . But to rewrite and airbrush history, good and bad (which both sides do), is wrong.

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manaliveits105
5 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Ireland has been an economic basket case for all but a couple of decades since partition and has relied heavily on its special relationship with the UK more than once to avoid Economic collapse. People seem to have forgotten the 14 billion bailout in 2008 when they were hours from ruin. 

 

Of course an independent Scotland can be an Economic success but even the SNP's own report said it could take 20 years to recover from the economic impact of independence. They SG are currently stating that Covid will be an Economic disaster that will take 7-10 years to put right.

 

How well NS says Wash your hands, stay at home and wear a mask in shops might be enough to make people take the independence plunge, but I would be leaning towards furlough, Quantitative easing and the UK market advantages at least until we know just how bad its going to get. 

 

 

Spot on - there’s also a lot of businesses which will go bust up here that wouldn’t have if in England - the snp are hibsing it now 

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Spot on - there’s also a lot of businesses which will go bust up here that wouldn’t have if in England - the snp are hibsing it now 

Fancy naming some of the business who will go bust? 
Ever also noticed the difference in the brexit talks that it’s the big bad EU who won’t play ball with free trade deals yet if Scotland decides on Indy then don’t you dare expect one, we’re screwed with hard borders etc and England won’t buy our stuff anymore. Scotland gets treated like a colony the financial

times even mentioned it yesterday. 
Ireland made their best decision and huge strides when they stopped pegging their punt/pound to ours. Joined the EU, adopted the EURO and things literally took off. 
Have a look at what the Irish pensioners get btw. 

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SwindonJambo
9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Fancy naming some of the business who will go bust? 
Ever also noticed the difference in the brexit talks that it’s the big bad EU who won’t play ball with free trade deals yet if Scotland decides on Indy then don’t you dare expect one, we’re screwed with hard borders etc and England won’t buy our stuff anymore. Scotland gets treated like a colony the financial

times even mentioned it yesterday. 
Ireland made their best decision and huge strides when they stopped pegging their punt/pound to ours. Joined the EU, adopted the EURO and things literally took off. 
Have a look at what the Irish pensioners get btw. 

 

When Ireland joined the Euro, it could borrow with unprecedented low interest rates, set by the ECB. It duly overborrowed and required a big EU bailout and a further one from the Bank of England to get itself out of penury.  Hats off to them, they took their medicine and got themselves back on their feet. But they needed a helping hand to do it.

 

I personally think an indy Scotland would be far better off setting up its own currency and Central Bank, setting its own interest rates and monetary policy to suit its own needs. If it later chooses to peg itself to the Euro, fine. But imho The Euro is a German racket and best avoided. Yes it's nice to go on holiday and  be able to use the same currency across multiple countries but there's much more to it than that.

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jack D and coke
7 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

When Ireland joined the Euro, it could borrow with unprecedented low interest rates, set by the ECB. It duly overborrowed and required a big EU bailout and a further one from the Bank of England to get itself out of penury.  Hats off to them, they took their medicine and got themselves back on their feet. But they needed a helping hand to do it.

 

I personally think an indy Scotland would be far better off setting up its own currency and Central Bank, setting its own interest rates and monetary policy to suit its own needs. If it later chooses to peg itself to the Euro, fine. But imho The Euro is a German racket and best avoided. Yes it's nice to go on holiday and  be able to use the same currency across multiple countries but there's much more to it than that.

The euro does seem set up to benefit the German economy I agree. Although I’m not totally averse to it if we went indy I’d much rather have our own pound or whatever. 
On ROI the U.K. was bound to bail out Ireland as an EU partner I think and it was a loan not some gift that some people seem to make out.

Some quick googling suggests they’ll have paid it back by next year too and it wasn’t the silly amounts I’ve seen banded about it, it was £3.2billion apparently.  They did have a bad time( all countries did) but with the EU borrowed the money needed. They’ve also turned it around big time, there’s a saying it’s easier to turn round a small boat as opposed to a big ship. 
I suppose Scotland is a dinghy full of holes though and would've sank. Everything’s running oot here and nobody would’ve helped certainly not England who we’ve been in a Union with for 3 centuries. 

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Montgomery Brewster
7 hours ago, fancy a brew said:

 

You're not alone in holding Ireland up as an example for Scotland to follow, but Ireland has taken advantage of the EU's financial setup to attract corporations to funnel their profits there with low tax rates. This gives the impression that the economy is doing great, but it's not quite so simple. Although the Exchequer obviously benefits, there's no effect for the average punter's wage packet.

The headline figures look very rosy for Ireland,with average income per head $62000 compared to $42000 for the UK.

 

https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

 

 

However the median income is $25000 compared to $31000 for the UK. So not the land of milk and honey that some would have you believe. 

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country

 

Rather strangely Ireland have won a court case to stop Apple having to pay them more tax.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-53416206

 

An independent Scotland that rejoins the EU, would likely see corporate taxes disappearing over the Irish sea.

Not at all. Especially when we match the corporate tax levels of Ireland.

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jack D and coke

Interesting article too I found...

 

It was not 9 billion it was 3.2 billion

UK lent Ireland £3.2bn as part of bailout in 2010 with final repayment due in March 2021. Ireland has now paid £358 million (€428 million) in interest to the UK on a crisis loan it gave to the State in 2010. ... The latest report in 2017 from the British treasury says Ireland has now paid the UK £358 million in interest since 2011 .

It cost the UK nothing to lend Ireland the 3.2 billion, they borrowed the money on the open market and lent it on to Ireland at a higher interest rate then The UK came out a few hundred million in the plus .

It was in the Uk’s self Interest in lending the money since the money was used to bail out UK banks that made bad bets on the Irish economy.

Ireland is the UK’s fifth largest trading partner. of those top five trading partners Ireland is the first country the Uk makes a profit.

We trade around €1.2bn (£900m) of goods and services each week between our two countries.

There are 200,000 jobs in Ireland and another 200,000 jobs in the UK that are directly supported by our trade. More people work in the UK for Irish food companies than work for Nissan in Sunderland. World-leading Irish employers such as Greencore, Kerry, Glanbia and ABP all employ more local UK workers.

The UK trades more with Ireland then the combined BRIC nations , she trades more with Ireland then her entire commonwealth. to put that in context Ireland only has a population of 4.8 million.

Ireland could have let the banks fail and not turn private debt in to sovereign debt. the money the Uk lent Ireland was used to bail out UK Banks . that bail out prevented the contagion effect spreading . Ireland took on 42% of European Banking debt with less then 1% of the EU population .

Yes the UK lent us money in our hour of need. That money is in the process of being paid back with substantial Interest .

 

Like I’ve said plenty times before too. Bank bailouts were made by foreign banks all over the place yet we were lied to and told that because RBS had a plaque on a wall in Edinburgh that Scotland’s economy would’ve been on the hook for all Fred Goodwin’s bad decisions all over the planet. It’s hard to believe there are still some people who can’t seem to make that compute in their head. We were lied to. We get lied to. 
 

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SwindonJambo
9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The euro does seem set up to benefit the German economy I agree. Although I’m not totally averse to it if we went indy I’d much rather have our own pound or whatever. 
On ROI the U.K. was bound to bail out Ireland as an EU partner I think and it was a loan not some gift that some people seem to make out.

Some quick googling suggests they’ll have paid it back by next year too and it wasn’t the silly amounts I’ve seen banded about it, it was £3.2billion apparently.  They did have a bad time( all countries did) but with the EU borrowed the money needed. They’ve also turned it around big time, there’s a saying it’s easier to turn round a small boat as opposed to a big ship. 
I suppose Scotland is a dinghy full of holes though and would've sank. Everything’s running oot here and nobody would’ve helped certainly not England who we’ve been in a Union with for 3 centuries. 

The Irish have done very well in digging themselves out of the shit and they're widely admired for having done so. It needed painful cuts and tough action but they withstood it. They got 2 separate bank bailouts. One from the Eurozone and and a separate one of around £4bn or so from the UK. For a country of 4.5m, that's huge. But they made very good use of it so fair play.

 

 

Edited by SwindonJambo
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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

The Irish have done very well in digging themselves out of the shit and they're widely admired for having done so. It needed painful cuts and tough action but they withstood it. They got 2 separate bank bailouts. One from the Eurozone and and a separate one of around £7bn or so from the UK. For a country of 4.5m, that's huge. But they made very good use of it so fair play.

 

 

It was £3.2 billion apparently bud. See my post above. 

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SwindonJambo
Just now, jack D and coke said:

It was £3.2 billion apparently bud. See my post above. 

 

I know. I saw your post and edited mine :D

 

If we keep getting Etonian Bullingdon types like Cameron and Boris in government then it's hard not to see Scotland going its own way. I'm  now pretty much expecting to see it at some point.

 

The debate will soon move on to how it does it and that will be a big debate indeed with a wide range of views. I have said it before, please Scotland FFS don't join the Euro. 

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

I know. I saw your post and edited mine :D

 

If we keep getting Etonian Bullingdon types like Cameron and Boris in government then it's hard not to see Scotland going its own way. I'm  now pretty much expecting to see it at some point.

 

The debate will soon move on to how it does it and that will be a big debate indeed with a wide range of views. I have said it before, please Scotland FFS don't join the Euro. 

It wouldn’t be my choice but some countries don’t seem to have done too badly. The Southern European nations seem to have struggled. 
Tbh on your last point the debate doesn’t need to be had the hardest part will be convincing people that Scotland isn’t shite, will have no currency EVER AGAIN, everything will shut, nobody will trade with us, everything’s running oot, won’t get invaded, be run by taigs/the snp for EVER, suffer plagues of locusts, get cut off from the entire world, banned from the EU for EVER cos a Spanish geezer who was put up to it by David Cameron said so and won’t sink like a brick. 
 

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SwindonJambo
14 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It wouldn’t be my choice but some countries don’t seem to have done too badly. The Southern European nations seem to have struggled. 
Tbh on your last point the debate doesn’t need to be had the hardest part will be convincing people that Scotland isn’t shite, will have no currency EVER AGAIN, everything will shut, nobody will trade with us, everything’s running oot, won’t get invaded, be run by taigs/the snp for EVER, suffer plagues of locusts, get cut off from the entire world, banned from the EU for EVER cos a Spanish geezer who was put up to it by David Cameron said so and won’t sink like a brick. 
 

 

The Euro has impoverished Southern Europe. Greece and Italy (who are the bookies’ favourites to be next to leave the EU) should never have joined the Euro in the first place. Both fudged their figures to satisfy the criteria for joining. The Northern European countries other than Germany merely tolerate it. For me it’s a matter of control. If you set your own monetary policy you’re independent. If you use someone else’s, you’re at their mercy. It’s a big no thanks from me.

 

As for your 2nd paragraph, I would hope there aren’t too many people who think quite as negatively as that! :D  We were certainly in major shit in the 70s and 80s with manufacturing industry collapsing but things have improved markedly since then with Glasgow, in particular doing very well to reinvent itself. Even my hometown of Hamilton is looking up (apart from the town centre, which is a dump).

 

I don’t think the Spanish veto arises any more because Scotland would be joining the EU after seceding from a non member as a opposed to from a current member in 2014. I had that debate with my dad last week. However, the EU will not be the grants bonanza it once was with the U.K. out and lots of poor net recipients joining since 2004 so I’m not convinced joining the EU is  desirable. A Norway type EEA deal might be better because we wouldn’t be obliged to join the Euro. 

 

As for the invasion fear, joining NATO deals with that, though it could mean having to tolerate the Nuke subs base remaining in Faslane for a while because NATO has a nuclear policy.

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On 21/07/2020 at 20:32, Marty Byrde said:

 

Possibly the worst aspect of the debate is drivel like this. 

 

It's about what's better for Scotland.

I will have that debate.

Shall I go first ?

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fancy a brew
3 hours ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Not at all. Especially when we match the corporate tax levels of Ireland.

 

I want to see independence and think it will happen, but don't want to see Scotland getting into a race to the bottom on corporation tax. The only winners would be Amazon, Apple, Google and the likes. The lowest rate of corporation tax in Ireland is only 6.5% at present, the EU should tighten this loophole up, but it would be opposed by Ireland and Luxembourg and anybody else is who benefits. Multinationals are already taking the piss, sovereign nations shouldn't be queuing up to help them.

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Marty Byrde
12 hours ago, jake said:

I will have that debate.

Shall I go first ?

 

Sure. You can answer then who said Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be Independent? A tired accusation aimed at anyone whose zeal for Independence is less than total 

 

In other news...

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/activists-hold-banner-saying-england-get-out-scotland-border-during-protest-2921243

 

:jj_facepalm:

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manaliveits105

Robin McAlpine: Unite? Behind what exactly?

“Much as I love the independence movement, more far-fetched schemes hatched on social media but with no chance of implementation may make you feel better, but will be as pointless over the five years to come as they were in the five that we just lived through.”

I HAVE a difficult history with unity. As a political strategist, I have no difficulty in seeing its benefits; as a human being who hopes for a better future I have encountered calls for unity only as reasons why I must drop my principles and bow to someone more powerful.

So here we are again: two votes SNP. We may have treated your votes as nothing more than a useful commodity in the past but it will be different this time. Honest, really, truly.

And yet the leadership of the SNP isn’t even trying to maintain a pretence that there is any hope of progress if you give them two votes. They’re actually telling everyone a referendum is not going to happen and then turning to the movement and delivering a stage wink.

This has summarised my last five years. I have made a career out of reading the detail and nuance of politics so I was well aware that the SNP leadership was openly briefing anyone who would listen that they were not going to pursue independence (look over shoulder, wink).

Weirdly, much of the defence of this from within the independence movement is that that they have to say this stuff for electoral reasons while secretly and assiduously following a brilliant plan.

‘Trust them, they’re lying’ is an odd defence, especially given the volume of evidence about who was being lied to. It was the wink that was a lie, not the promise of inaction. Inaction is the only thing this government has delivered.

So to be here again is starting to break my spirit. Please, join me in reading the detail. A few weeks ago, one “Sturgeon ally” was briefing unionist media that people who thought there could be a referendum in the next five years could “**** off” (their words).

Earlier this week, when Ian Blackford was telling us to give the SNP all our votes, he was asked whether he thought they could deliver a referendum in 2022 and he refused even to countenance the possibility. “One step at a time,” he says – i.e. ‘give us your votes and wait and see what you get’.

Of course, you could just listen to the only person with any say in this matter. On Sunday Nicola Sturgeon went on national television and said that there would be no talk of independence until after both Covid and the resulting economic crisis were over. It wasn’t a slip – she said it twice.

This stands in sharp contrast with her stated goal in last year’s General Election campaign of pursuing a referendum – albeit by setting a condition (a Section 30 order or nothing) she knew could not be met.

And yet still she seems to fear you missed her telling you all of this, so she said it again as plainly as it is possible to say it. You. Are. Not. Getting. A. Referendum. In. The. Next. Five. Years. Is that clear enough?

For three years, the first minister hid behind her self image (don’t talk about independence, just trust me). For the next three years, she hid behind Brexit (don’t talk about independence, Brexit first). For the next five, it appears she plans to hide behind Covid (don’t talk about independence at all).

For me, what is equally beyond dispute is that this is a right-of-centre administration and has been for a while now. All Sturgeon’s trusted advisors are clearly on the right of the political spectrum. George Kerevan’s recent wonderful analysis in Conter of the rightwards drift of the party lacked only the dozens upon dozens of examples of right-wing policy and public-charity-for-corporation that have resulted.

And if anyone tries to tell me the SNP is progressive, they better be ready with some examples – and if those include Universal Basic Income, a ‘Green Deal’, a National Energy Company, universal childcare, ‘affordable housing’, closing the education attainment gap, a Poverty Tsar, land reform, open government, local democracy, Council Tax reform or a ‘revolution in care’, you’ll need to find some more.

Every single one of these (and many more) gained the Scottish Government headlines which might have given the impression it is progressive. Not a single one of the above happened; all were either fake or failed. It has been nothing more than ‘left-washing’ of the most cynical sort.

And if you tell me that what is different this time is you, that you as a party loyalist are going to make sure this happens, please spare me. Democracy in the SNP has been reduced to levels which would make Vladimir Putin blush; there is no serious mechanism for the party membership to set policy before the manifesto is written. What does your leadership have to do to convince you that they don’t place any value whatsoever on what you think?

Things change and change radically. If you really believe that the SNP is going to be in the same polling position by election time you probably need a reality check. Politics doesn’t work like that and a full year of ‘Covid, Covid, look at me, not my record’ isn’t likely to play out. There are those that would like you to believe the Salmond affair is over. It is no such thing.

People will forget the Sturgeon screen-time during Covid and start to look at the record. Most alarmingly, the Scottish Government has a terrible domestic record and no serious plan for the economic crisis ahead.

If things don’t change, be clear where we’re going. Sturgeon with an overall majority will absolutely, certainly not deliver a referendum in the next five years; nor will she deliver a Green New Deal or a new social or economic settlement in Scotland. You can shout all you want – once they have their majority you can “**** off” (again, their words, not mine).

There is nothing you can do about it. The first minister is in complete control of government and not a single SNP MSP will ever, ever rebel. Her husband is in complete control of the party machine and the party conference has been replaced with a toothless ‘listening exercise’. You can talk big about how you won’t accept inaction, but it’s just talk. You can’t do a thing.

I have never been convinced by second vote strategies, but with the self-imposed irrelevance of the Scottish Greens these days I am starting to hope that there are at least options, but we shall have to wait and see.

Beyond that, I don’t have any answers left. I have tried to work with others to build a cross-party, non-party movement, but SNP HQ did everything it possibly could to crush it. Common Weal tried really hard to resolve the intellectual gap in the case for independence, but were completely ignored in favour of the never-credible liability that is the Growth Commission.

And I’ve explained all the options I know of for achieving independence, but so long as things stay as they are these options are little more than a historical curiosity-in-waiting. Fundamentally, Nicola Sturgeon’s people – Andrew Wilson, Angus Robertson, Alyn Smith, the SPADs – show no sign of believing independence is possible in the next five years. They really, really think you’re all silly children who need saved from yourselves. Poor things, imagining independence is possible…

The Sturgeon team would prefer you to believe that it is a function of her personality that is making independence viable (in the long term) through the SNP. She wants you to forget the SNP won in 2007 and got a majority in 2011. They want you to believe that the 2015 election landslide was because of the ‘amazing’ few weeks she was leader (and not because of the experience of the referendum or Labour’s collapse).

They’d like you to forget that of the four elections she has fought since, three saw reversals or substantial underperformance, and the only one that bucked the trend was when Labour melted down and the Tories became English nationalists.

Voting SNP (now, sadly) isn’t really a vote for a party but for a president. It is a president who does not appear to have ‘we’ or ‘us’ in her vocabulary.

Frankly, I’m about done with the pretence. Another five years of the Charlotte Street Nationalists is just another giant lurch towards a Charlotte Street Scotland. I give the prospects of independence in that time as being as close as damnit to zero.

I’m tired with this, and much as I love the independence movement, more far-fetched schemes hatched on social media but with no chance of implementation may make you feel better, but will be as pointless over the five years to come as they were in the five that we just lived through.

So as far as I’m concerned, it’s over to the loyalists now. Spare me all your sycophantic newspaper columns, Tweets, Facebook posts and on-the-record quotes.

Don’t tell me it’ll be different this time, that there is a secret plan, that the rise in the polls is all a result of genius, that supposed competence wins referendums, that you really, really promise to hold them to account this time, that there will be a manifesto commitment. Don’t tell me that I can trust you.

I don’t believe a word of it. Set out your detailed plan now or, to quote that sentiment towards people like me who actually want independence, feck off.

https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-unite-behind-what-exactly/

 

and so the in fighting begins !!

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jack D and coke
8 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

He agrees with you then?

 

 

Course he does. I mean why would you go to places where vast amounts of Scotland’s resources lie but the population is half

a dozen flocks of sheep and a farmer? 
 

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Marty Byrde
9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Course he does. I mean why would you go to places where vast amounts of Scotland’s resources lie but the population is half

a dozen flocks of sheep and a farmer? 
 

 

No, about a Scot being PM?

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jack D and coke
8 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

No, about a Scot being PM?

:lol: sorry bud misunderstood you. Kinda wondered after I’d replied if that’s what you meant. 
Edit still a bit confused. If we are in the union why shouldn’t a Scot become PM? 🤔

Edited by jack D and coke
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Marty Byrde
2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

:lol: sorry bud misunderstood you. Kinda wondered after I’d replied if that’s what you meant. 
Edit still a bit confused. If we are in the union why shouldn’t a Scot become PM? 🤔

 

But you don't want us in the Union.

 

Not a good look agreeing with Boris mate.

 

☹️

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jack D and coke
6 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

But you don't want us in the Union.

 

Not a good look agreeing with Boris mate.

 

☹️

If the people here vote for it then it matters not what I want man I’m totally at ease with that. 
I believe we’d be better suited on our own though. We’re a very timid nation imo. Scared of our own shadow. Standing on our own two feet be good for us imo. 

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9 hours ago, Marty Byrde said:

 

Sure. You can answer then who said Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be Independent? A tired accusation aimed at anyone whose zeal for Independence is less than total 

 

In other news...

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/activists-hold-banner-saying-england-get-out-scotland-border-during-protest-2921243

 

:jj_facepalm:

I thought you wanted debate about the merits or not of independence?

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Space Mackerel
On 21/07/2020 at 18:04, Marty Byrde said:

 

How do you think we'd have handled dealing with Covid and the economic shock born from that with our deficit outside the EU and UK?

 

I'm personally glad we are part of the UK right now.

 

 

 

115536678_10157007297801012_377249165241871110_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=5FNkgmm5CqQAX83KdGI&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-1.fna&oh=1b8a873769497b754e8cc5144a51d975&oe=5F3D9EDD

 

110318722_10157007299556012_8889221545737083893_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=IuXVif2XmGcAX-Xsu84&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-2.fna&oh=15392dc54ad18b56691dc98f91a8ac84&oe=5F3DF60E

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