The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Roxy Hearts]

15 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

 

I'm looking at the SNP and there are clearly MPs and MSPs who do hold radically different politics. 

 

Independence could be the best thing for Scotlands democracy as invariably these politicians would sort of repopulate the current ones (labour, lib dems... maybe even Tory!) I think there is a reason most every other party is lacking credible candidates and thats because the vast majority of the 'talent' is in the SNP. I'm unsure how long the SNP could continue on after Independence because its purpose has been fulfilled. I'd imagine it would carry on for an election cycle to negotiate with the rUK on its exit, but beyond that? 

 

Its actually quite an intriguing prospect tbh. 

 

We're starting to see more people being open about their transition from no to yes so its hopefully a trend that continues. Johnsons visit this week I think reinforces the idea that there is another referendum on the horizon. Thankfully any talk about equal partnership in the Union was put to bed by Brexit and even this governments engagement with devolved administrations on Covid matters. This was a feature of the better together campaign and has pretty much been shown up for what it is. I think there will be a huge amount of cynicism in regards to any promises a better together 2 campaign makes in light of the lack of follow through by the UK government in the wake of the no result. Which again, gives me hope. 

Unionist lies are difficult to attack when the media in general promote them. There are a lot of people persuaded by the utter nonsense that is spouted. There are folk with entrenched views so they are a lost cause so it's the others we need to focus on. Folk worrying over currency for goodness sake. Real politik will happen if we gain independence as it benefits all but that's expecting WM to grow up to achieve it! 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Unionist lies are difficult to attack when the media in general promote them. There are a lot of people persuaded by the utter nonsense that is spouted. There are folk with entrenched views so they are a lost cause so it's the others we need to focus on. Folk worrying over currency for goodness sake. Real politik will happen if we gain independence as it benefits all but that's expecting WM to grow up to achieve it! 

I don’t see many people worrying about currency as such but it is a fairly important policy. The snp policy to replace sterling isn’t that great an idea imo. 

[Cruyff]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

I've long said I want full independence along with an equal partnership with our oldest allies. Federalism leaves us as a junior partner at a Westminster government.

Federalism can't work if WM was to exist. 

 

It has to be a complete ripping apart of the Establishment where each Nation of the UK controls their own domestic policy from their own respective Parliament. 

 

Neither Country should have control over Foreign Affairs, the Armed Forces or the Central Bank. I don't know how it could be done, possibly through an upper house Senate type thing who control these things Independently. 

 

It'll never happen though. They'd have to relinquish control to become an equal. 

 

1 hour ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

And if that proves to be the case then the people can choose full independence after that. Something will change anyway. It will be either Full Independence or Full Fiscal Autonomy. Public opinion has moved too far for things to stay as they are. If it’s full Independence I certainly hope Scotland quickly applies for NATO membership.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

We definitely need to be part of NATO. 

 

RAF typhoons on a weekly, sometimes daily basis, are having to escort Russian fighters and bombers away from the airspace around the North of Scotland. The Royal Navy constantly has to escort Russian Subs and Destroyers from the North Sea through the English Channel. The threat is always there. 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

21 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I don’t see many people worrying about currency as such but it is a fairly important policy. The snp policy to replace sterling isn’t that great an idea imo. 

The SNP won't be in power. Economists will advise best way for both parliaments. Westminster really is a dysfunctional pit. 

[manaliveits105]

but weve goat these guys to sort oot the ruskis 

[GinRummy]

9 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The SNP won't be in power. Economists will advise best way for both parliaments. Westminster really is a dysfunctional pit. 

Agree regarding Westminster but surely if we get independence the snp will be in power. As for economists, they’re like politicians as they disagree all the time. 

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Agree regarding Westminster but surely if we get independence the snp will be in power. As for economists, they’re like politicians as they disagree all the time. 

The SNP won't be in power. There will be a Scottish general election. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

The SNP won't be in power. There will be a Scottish general election. 

Surely the snp will win. Anyway, speaking personally the currency issue isn’t a clincher for me, I’ll be voting for independence based on other issues but I do feel a quick move away from sterling would be a mistake. 

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Surely the snp will win. Anyway, speaking personally the currency issue isn’t a clincher for me, I’ll be voting for independence based on other issues but I do feel a quick move away from sterling would be a mistake. 

I agree about the currency but something convincing will need to done to win some over. I currently vote SNP but would probably vote for a different party if we gain independence. Not Labour though! I will vote for the party that best suits our collective needs as a peoples and a country. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

I agree about the currency but something convincing will need to done to win some over. I currently vote SNP but would probably vote for a different party if we gain independence. Not Labour though! I will vote for the party that best suits our collective needs as a peoples and a country. 

I think the fear factor about currency, over reliance on oil etc etc worked for the pro union parties in the last referendum. It won’t wash this time imo. 
 

The snp, as someone commented earlier, is a broad church at the moment. Sooner or later the party will split and new partie(s) will form. From a pro-independence view point it’s probably best that this happens after independence.

[Marty Byrde]

Possibly the most pathetic Independence argument is it would end the SNP so err, vote for Independence.

 

These oddballs would love to mold Scotland afterwards and would feel it's their right to do so. McNanny state way out of control. No danger that is passed up.

 

The top guns of the SNP would run the first independent government of Scotland, one way or another.

 

It's laughable to even pretend otherwise.

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

Possibly the most pathetic Independence argument is it would end the SNP so err, vote for Independence.

 

These oddballs would love to mold Scotland afterwards and would feel it's their right to do so. McNanny state way out of control. No danger that is passed up.

 

The top guns of the SNP would run the first independent government of Scotland, one way or another.

 

It's laughable to even pretend otherwise.

 

 

You may be correct in that the SNP may have a short transitional period in control. There will be a Scottish general election and we can then choose. 

[A Boy Named Crow]

38 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Surely the snp will win. Anyway, speaking personally the currency issue isn’t a clincher for me, I’ll be voting for independence based on other issues but I do feel a quick move away from sterling would be a mistake. 

Without the push for independence holding it all together,  the SNP will fragment into right and left wing types, greens, liberals etc.

 

One faction may well keep the name "SNP", but it'd be like a band that splits, with one of the former members trying to pass their solo stuff off as the old band. Post independence,  the SNP loses all relevance.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Without the push for independence holding it all together,  the SNP will fragment into right and left wing types, greens, liberals etc.

 

One faction may well keep the name "SNP", but it'd be like a band that splits, with one of the former members trying to pass their solo stuff off as the old band. Post independence,  the SNP loses all relevance.

Yes. That will happen but not instantly in my opinion. There may be a split after independence but I can only see the snp (More or less in its current form) leading the country immediately after independence. During the first parliament rifts will begin to form. 

[manaliveits105]

There will be no referendum in the next 4 years plus FACT 

[Unknown user]

18 minutes ago, Marty Byrde said:

Possibly the most pathetic Independence argument is it would end the SNP so err, vote for Independence.

 

These oddballs would love to mold Scotland afterwards and would feel it's their right to do so. McNanny state way out of control. No danger that is passed up.

 

The top guns of the SNP would run the first independent government of Scotland, one way or another.

 

It's laughable to even pretend otherwise.

 

 

 

Whats laughable is the notion that independence = snp.

 

I'd never vote for them post independence, they just don't meet my needs, I don't care what they feel their rights are.

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Federalism can't work if WM was to exist. 

 

It has to be a complete ripping apart of the Establishment where each Nation of the UK controls their own domestic policy from their own respective Parliament. 

 

Neither Country should have control over Foreign Affairs, the Armed Forces or the Central Bank. I don't know how it could be done, possibly through an upper house Senate type thing who control these things Independently. 

 

It'll never happen though. They'd have to relinquish control to become an equal. 

 

Agreed.

 

We definitely need to be part of NATO. 

 

RAF typhoons on a weekly, sometimes daily basis, are having to escort Russian fighters and bombers away from the airspace around the North of Scotland. The Royal Navy constantly has to escort Russian Subs and Destroyers from the North Sea through the English Channel. The threat is always there. 

 

 

People forget just how important defence is, even without a single shot being fired. Our continental European neighbours hugely underspend on defence and take America's huge contribution to NATO, keeping them safe in the process for free, for granted. America is far from perfect with some very questionable foreign policy decisions but I'd take them over Russia and China every day of the week.

Edited July 25, 2020 by SwindonJambo

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Federalism can't work if WM was to exist. 

 

It has to be a complete ripping apart of the Establishment where each Nation of the UK controls their own domestic policy from their own respective Parliament. 

 

There would still have to be a central federal government, like Washington DC. I suppose it could end up in Edinburgh and not Westminster, but is that even slightly likely?

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Marty Byrde said:

Possibly the most pathetic Independence argument is it would end the SNP so err, vote for Independence.

 

These oddballs would love to mold Scotland afterwards and would feel it's their right to do so. McNanny state way out of control. No danger that is passed up.

 

The top guns of the SNP would run the first independent government of Scotland, one way or another.

 

It's laughable to even pretend otherwise.

 

 

Talking about pretending, maybe you could stop spouting rubbish about having an open mind and just admit you are a rabid unionist. I mean it's not as if you would be alone with that view on here. Thankfully in the real world you are a fast diminishing minority

[XB52]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

There will be no referendum in the next 4 years plus FACT 

Wow, upper case letters, might as well close this thread now

[SwindonJambo]

38 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

SNP would most definitely be in the power in the event of Indy victory. People aren’t going to start voting Lab, Tory, LIb immediately after a Indy victory. They will be the party that would be in power for the first term, at least, of an independent Scotland. Whilst, the SNP are not going to suddenly disband.after getting its primary aim, it will properly be a left of centre political party. 

 

Now it would seem very unlikely they would be in power forever, but they would most certainly be the party who kicked it off and consequently the biggest hand in shaping the country. They issued a white paper telling us what they would do in event of independence last time.

 

I have always felt the currency was a bit of red herring. It would seem likely that we would ultimately join the Euro, however, in the meantime it would need to set up a central bank anyway. So it would make more sense to have own currency it provides more economic levers,. The only downside of the Scottish pound initially is its a newly traded currency as opposed to Euro or GBP. That doesn't make any difference yo you average joe. Everything is ultimately the same that is why we have exchange rates.🤷🏻‍♂️

 

The SNP/Yes campaign just need to have a plan and communicate It. Last time they didn’t, they just had rhetoric and a bit of confusion.  

 

Their currency policy last time out was bonkers. If it had been a bit more coherent and convincing, I believe the vote would have been much closer.

 

The Euro is the Deutschmark in disguise. An independent Scotland would be foolish to adopt it. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, SwindonJambo said:

 

Their currency policy last time out was bonkers. If it had been a bit more coherent and convincing, I believe the vote would have been much closer.

 

The Euro is the Deutschmark in disguise. An independent Scotland would be foolish to adopt it. 

Why would it be foolish to adopt the euro? 

[SwindonJambo]

Just now, GinRummy said:

Why would it be foolish to adopt the euro? 

Because they would be a hostage to another country's monetary policy, tailored to suit that country, namely Germany. If you don't have your own currency, central bank and interest rate setting ability, then you're not really independent. 

 

Look at the carnage it's caused in Southern Europe.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

Because they would be a hostage to another country's monetary policy, tailored to suit that country, namely Germany. If you don't have your own currency, central bank and interest rate setting ability, then you're not really independent. 

 

Look at the carnage it's caused in Southern Europe.

I’d advocate sticking with Sterling, at least short term but our economy is hardly comparable to countries in Southern Europe. Starting a new currency is hardly without risk. 

[SwindonJambo]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

I’d advocate sticking with Sterling, at least short term but our economy is hardly comparable to countries in Southern Europe. Starting a new currency is hardly without risk. 

A short term use of sterling would be sensible then a Scottish Pound after that. It would probably have a painful launch , while it floated and found its level but it would stabilise with the big carrot being monetary self determination. 

[GinRummy]

Just now, SwindonJambo said:

A short term use of sterling would be sensible then a Scottish Pound after that. It would probably have a painful launch , while it floated and found its level but it would stabilise with the big carrot being monetary self determination. 

Eventually there would need to be a Scottish pound or similar but we are so intertwined with the economy of the rest of the uk that, even in the medium term (if we adopted our own currency) interest rates will not be drastically out of step with the uk Imo.

 

It’s impossible to tell how the new currency would do in exchange markets but it’s a complex balancing act between risk and a reward that quite possibly we may not benefit from for a long time. 
 

If we get independence it will happen sometime. 

[SwindonJambo]

25 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Eventually there would need to be a Scottish pound or similar but we are so intertwined with the economy of the rest of the uk that, even in the medium term (if we adopted our own currency) interest rates will not be drastically out of step with the uk Imo.

 

It’s impossible to tell how the new currency would do in exchange markets but it’s a complex balancing act between risk and a reward that quite possibly we may not benefit from for a long time. 
 

If we get independence it will happen sometime. 

 

I'm not especially keen on independence but If the opinion polls stay as they are for a lengthy period, it would be undemocratic to obstruct it. If it does happen I want it to go as well as possible. Only a twisted and malicious idiot wouldn't. I'm interested to see specific plans for things like currency ,borrowing, defence etc. 

 

Unfortunately the level of debate is very low at times with flag waving fools on both sides trading insults.

 

If Yes do eventually get their way, it would be a big help if all or most those on the No side got on board quickly and embraced the new situation. 

 

[GinRummy]

19 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

I'm not especially keen on independence but If the opinion polls stay as they are for a lengthy period, it would be undemocratic to obstruct it. If it does happen I want it to go as well as possible. Only a twisted and malicious idiot wouldn't. I'm interested to see specific plans for things like currency ,borrowing, defence etc. 

 

Unfortunately the level of debate is very low at times with flag waving fools on both sides trading insults.

 

If Yes do eventually get their way, it would be a big help if all or most those on the No side got on board quickly and embraced the new situation. 

 

You sound like a very sensible chap. I’m for independence but unlike some, not at any cost. The debate is often poor I agree. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Are they deid yet or is the high page count the usual frothing and wishful thinking from the resident westminster centric cranks?

[manaliveits105]

The Ecktopus cometh and hell cometh with him 

[Unknown user]

4 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

I'm not especially keen on independence but If the opinion polls stay as they are for a lengthy period, it would be undemocratic to obstruct it. If it does happen I want it to go as well as possible. Only a twisted and malicious idiot wouldn't. I'm interested to see specific plans for things like currency ,borrowing, defence etc. 

 

Unfortunately the level of debate is very low at times with flag waving fools on both sides trading insults.

 

If Yes do eventually get their way, it would be a big help if all or most those on the No side got on board quickly and embraced the new situation. 

 

There's an inherent problem with what you want to know. No one can really say because different people will have different ideas, there are many facets to the independence movement. 

There's going to be a fairly long period between a Yes vote and actual independence, and I'd think that in that time a General election would be called, different parties put forward their visions, people vote and that result dictates the details.

 

You'd think the dissolving of the union would involve a transition period during which different things come into effect at different times too, and I'd like to keep a close relationship with England. The details of all that are beyond me but I'm willing to listen.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Smithee

[davemclaren]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

There's an inherent problem with what you want to know. No one can really say because different people will have different ideas, there are many facets to the independence movement. 

There's going to be a fairly long period between a Yes vote and actual independence, and I'd think that in that time a General election would be called, different parties put forward their visions, people vote and that result dictates the details.

 

You'd think the dissolving of the union would involve a transition period during which different things come into effect at different times too, and I'd like to keep a close relationship with England. The details of all that are beyond me but I'm willing to listen.

Well it’s taken over 4 years to to get the easiest deal ever to leave the EU so a reasonable transition period seems likely. I can’t see a UK government being as reasonable in negotiations as the EU. 😎

[ri Alban]

14 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Whats laughable is the notion that independence = snp.

 

I'd never vote for them post independence, they just don't meet my needs, I don't care what they feel their rights are.

There'll be no need to vote for any party with Scottish/Scotland in it's name. 

[ri Alban]

14 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

People forget just how important defence is, even without a single shot being fired. Our continental European neighbours hugely underspend on defence and take America's huge contribution to NATO, keeping them safe in the process for free, for granted. America is far from perfect with some very questionable foreign policy decisions but I'd take them over Russia and China every day of the week.

Defence is the main reason we're not independent, now. Scotland and her wide reaching waters is a necessity for England. 

 

Oh and Scots die easily on their conscience. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by ri Alban

[SwindonJambo]

51 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Defence is the main reason we're not independent, now. Scotland and her wide reaching waters is a necessity for England. 

 

Oh and Scots die easily on their conscience. 

 

Those waters and coastline are very expensive to defend. As Cruyff said earlier, the Russians are spying on us all the time and the RAF escort their planes away every week. 

 

If Scotland does choose to go its own way, NATO membership would be a must. And that would probably mean rUK military bases staying where they are indefinitely, including Faslane. They would  be our NATO allies and NATO has a nuclear deterrent policy. West Germany was covered with UK & US military bases for decades after WW2.

 

It's a dangerous World out there with all sorts of threats. It's easy to forget that after 75 years without a war on our doorstep and significant threat of invasion.

 

I don't think NATO membership would take long to sort. About 10 current members are smaller than Scotland including several ex Communist States. I believe they'd be glad to have us. 

 

EU membership would be much longer and even if achieved, much less beneficial than previously. With its 2nd biggest net donor now gone and lots of extra needy net recipients joined up since 2004, it won't be anything like the grants bonanza it was in the early 90s when with 12 members, Ireland used its grants received to build up it's infrastructure and in so doing is now a net donor.

 

[ri Alban]

English Independence may come first. Which suits me. 👍

Either way Scottish independence is happening next year. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

19 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

Eh, no I love Scotland and don't want to see it ruined but self preservation would have to come first. 

Trouble sleeping? Well you should have if it was up to me. 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Mooth saying in the Times today that the unionists should have 'put the boot in to the SNP after the 2014 referendum'.

 

Always good to hear from her, generally every time she opens her gob calamity  tends to follow for her party. 

[Weakened Offender]

I imagine the SNP will fall once that Champion of A United Ireland George Galloway gets his circus act going. 😁

Edited July 26, 2020 by Weakened Offender

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

I imagine the SNP will fall once that Champion of A United Ireland George Galloway gets his circus act going. 😁

What's gorgeous George up to now?

 

[Weakened Offender]

11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What's gorgeous George up to now?

 

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/firebrand-galloway-says-sole-aim-22416482?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

 

This 😁

Edited July 26, 2020 by Weakened Offender

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/firebrand-galloway-says-sole-aim-22416482?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

 

This 😁

🤣🤣 Good man George, I knew deep down he was a good guy!!!!

[Weakened Offender]

9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

🤣🤣 Good man George, I knew deep down he was a good guy!!!!

 

There's nothing deep about that trumpet. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Weakened Offender

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Weakened Offender said:

 

There's nothing deep about that trumpet. 

His love of cats?

[Weakened Offender]

15 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

His love of cats?

 

😁

[Space Mackerel]

On 25/07/2020 at 04:14, JackLadd said:

This "Hate Bill" is surely more SNannyP nonsense.  Haven't we got enough UK legislation already on this?  Geez peace wummin and take Humza Useless with you. 

 

No more sweeties or burgers for fattys.

 

Fat Doris says Naw. And he means it.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Space Mackerel

[jb102]

On 26/07/2020 at 22:48, Weakened Offender said:

I imagine the SNP will fall once that Champion of A United Ireland George Galloway gets his circus act going. 😁

Did I ever tell that I bought an Iraqi Crude Option Certificate from Gorgeous.He was selling them round at the bins at Holyrood.The other well known socialist firebrand perjurer was there as well but was otherwise engaged.

[Unknown user]

On 26/07/2020 at 23:03, Weakened Offender said:

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/firebrand-galloway-says-sole-aim-22416482?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

 

This 😁

Great news for supporters of independence 

[Space Mackerel]

Someone pop round to Massie's hoose and give him a wee cuddle.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-independence-has-boris-johnson-left-it-too-late-to-save-the-union-lwlwg5zgf

[Space Mackerel]

Jacky Coleslaw offski to punt more dodgy motors.

 

NEXT!!!!!

 

😁😁😁

Edited July 30, 2020 by Space Mackerel