The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Space Mackerel]

On 02/08/2020 at 14:24, jake said:

If we do get independence I think I'm right in saying that most fellow advocates for this want to rejoin the EU?

 

Our GDP v public spend wouldn't allow this and we would have to fall In line with the austerity policies practiced by the EU.

I think I'm right in saying currently that stands at around 9% .

The rules to join would mean slashing that to 3%.

Have i got this wrong ?

 

The 3% rule is to join the Single Currency, NOT,  the free trading bloc.

[Space Mackerel]

Ian Murray is a snidey lying wee *****.

 

https://theferret.scot/scotland-deficit-3-per-cent-eu/

[davemclaren]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Ian Murray is a snidey lying wee *****.

 

https://theferret.scot/scotland-deficit-3-per-cent-eu/

He’s s politician. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

He’s s politician. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

He is also my MP 😕

[OTT]

Since I could vote I've only ever voted SNP. Yes in 2014 etc, but I'm growing a bit.. tired of them. 

 

This nonsense with the NEC pushing all female lists (i.e excluding men which is surely discriminatory? You don't get to pick and choose based on characteristics the candidates cannot control, its literally doing the thing they are seeking to avoid) and the GRA stuff is really making me think that the SNPs strong electoral single issue position (independence) is being hijacked by people looking to push a very 'woke' 'everyone who doesn't agree with me is some kind of diet nazi'. Fundamentally, I want to see the best person for the job given the job. I'm all for equality of opportunity but purposefully excluding a specific characteristic (like gender) from representation isn't right.  I don't think the GRA stuff is based on established enough science to be credible and ultimately, does it not come at the expense of womens rights?

 

I consider myself fairly left leaning but it seems like its being dragged in an unelectable direction because they know the single issue of independence will ensure they remain electable. I can't help but think that if these issues were tested by a party that is not garnering circa 50% of the vote because of independence that they'd become less relevant than the Greens. It seems like any dissent against this stuff is choked up by accusations of intolerance. Its frankly exhausting. 

 

I find it deeply disconcerting. I really hope that independence comes sooner rather than later so that the SNP can be broken up and we get elections based around policy rather than independence. Its not an issue which is going away until its achieved or something drastic happens to discredit it in a big way (which is highly improbable, particularly with a Tory government).

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

Since I could vote I've only ever voted SNP. Yes in 2014 etc, but I'm growing a bit.. tired of them. 

 

This nonsense with the NEC pushing all female lists (i.e excluding men which is surely discriminatory? You don't get to pick and choose based on characteristics the candidates cannot control, its literally doing the thing they are seeking to avoid) and the GRA stuff is really making me think that the SNPs strong electoral single issue position (independence) is being hijacked by people looking to push a very 'woke' 'everyone who doesn't agree with me is some kind of diet nazi'. Fundamentally, I want to see the best person for the job given the job. I'm all for equality of opportunity but purposefully excluding a specific characteristic (like gender) from representation isn't right.  I don't think the GRA stuff is based on established enough science to be credible and ultimately, does it not come at the expense of womens rights?

 

I consider myself fairly left leaning but it seems like its being dragged in an unelectable direction because they know the single issue of independence will ensure they remain electable. I can't help but think that if these issues were tested by a party that is not garnering circa 50% of the vote because of independence that they'd become less relevant than the Greens. It seems like any dissent against this stuff is choked up by accusations of intolerance. Its frankly exhausting. 

 

I find it deeply disconcerting. I really hope that independence comes sooner rather than later so that the SNP can be broken up and we get elections based around policy rather than independence. Its not an issue which is going away until its achieved or something drastic happens to discredit it in a big way (which is highly improbable, particularly with a Tory government).

Good post, I suspect others feel the same as you.

[Pans Jambo]

On 03/08/2020 at 19:13, Space Mackerel said:

 

He is also my MP 😕

Het yersel up to his surgery and tell him I said he’s a fud of the highest order...but I appreciated his efforts during our dark times a few years back...but he’s still a fud!!!

[Malinga the Swinga]

Get these people out of office. In the process of destroying education in Scotland which will see our young population suffer for decades to come. All because these selfish, self serving liars have put independence before everything.

[Pans Jambo]

55 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Get these people out of office. In the process of destroying education in Scotland which will see our young population suffer for decades to come. All because these selfish, self serving liars have put independence before everything.

Its easy...just vote them out.

 

Good luck with that.

[3fingersreid]

Maybe someone with a bit of knowledge will give me the answer , if Scotland voted for independence ( which to me means independent not going from one union to another) what currency would we be using ?

A couple of posts up the page said we’d try to be in the euro ,another couple said we’d be able to use our own currency, which I’m not sure what that would be , as I’m not sure the tories would be happy with us using sterling .
Surely if it was clarified it would persuade more voters to vote yes ,until then it will sway a big portion of the debate .

 

[XB52]

5 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

Maybe someone with a bit of knowledge will give me the answer , if Scotland voted for independence ( which to me means independent not going from one union to another) what currency would we be using ?

A couple of posts up the page said we’d try to be in the euro ,another couple said we’d be able to use our own currency, which I’m not sure what that would be , as I’m not sure the tories would be happy with us using sterling .
Surely if it was clarified it would persuade more voters to vote yes ,until then it will sway a big portion of the debate .

 

We will use sterling for the short/medium term before going to the Scottish pound. 

[Pans Jambo]

17 minutes ago, XB52 said:

We will use sterling for the short/medium term before going to the Scottish pound. 

Probably although I dont know why we dont just "go for it" at the offset.

 

I'm sure there will be a rampant unionist with a blocked nose and a droned voice to say "naaaaaw, ye canny dae that, look at zimbabwe" 

 

They would rather get touched up by their new prospective leader in a bar (allegedly)

Edited August 5, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[3fingersreid]

19 minutes ago, XB52 said:

We will use sterling for the short/medium term before going to the Scottish pound. 

Cheers for the reply but, will Westminster allow it , especially if it’s the tories that are in power ? 
Im not looking for any argument , just clear info , it’s sometimes found on this thread in between the extreme views( both sides)  but currency still seems a big debate and will definitely need to be clarified .

 

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

Cheers for the reply but, will Westminster allow it , especially if it’s the tories that are in power ? 
Im not looking for any argument , just clear info , it’s sometimes found on this thread in between the extreme views( both sides)  but currency still seems a big debate and will definitely need to be clarified .

 

How could they prevent it?

[Weakened Offender]

15 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

Cheers for the reply but, will Westminster allow it , especially if it’s the tories that are in power ? 
Im not looking for any argument , just clear info , it’s sometimes found on this thread in between the extreme views( both sides)  but currency still seems a big debate and will definitely need to be clarified .

 

 

Some union that, eh? 😁

[3fingersreid]

17 minutes ago, Smithee said:

How could they prevent it?

That’s what I’m asking mate , I’m sure they wouldn’t be holding open any doors to make it easy. 

 

10 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Some union that, eh?

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said:

Maybe someone with a bit of knowledge will give me the answer , if Scotland voted for independence ( which to me means independent not going from one union to another) what currency would we be using ?

A couple of posts up the page said we’d try to be in the euro ,another couple said we’d be able to use our own currency, which I’m not sure what that would be , as I’m not sure the tories would be happy with us using sterling .
Surely if it was clarified it would persuade more voters to vote yes ,until then it will sway a big portion of the debate .

 

 

We can use all three. The currency is not as important as some would like us to think.. The Tories can scaremonger about us not using the pound but it is our current currency and we are perfectly entitled to use it . Should we change currency this would have an adverse 

effect on the pound and that is a big worry for ruk..

[3fingersreid]

4 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

We can use all three. The currency is not as important as some would like us to think.. The Tories can scaremonger about us not using the pound but it is our current currency and we are perfectly entitled to use it . Should we change currency this would have an adverse 

effect on the pound and that is a big worry for ruk..

I fully agree that the tories will use their project fear , that’s a given , however I can’t agree with your second sentence and it’s something that the snp and pro leave politicians HAVE to address to convince enough people to vote leave.
 

Anyway I feel I’m getting drawn into something I don’t want to be and don’t have enough knowledge of , so I’ll step away again and watch from the side lines . Thanks for the answers tho 👍🏻

[XB52]

1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said:

Cheers for the reply but, will Westminster allow it , especially if it’s the tories that are in power ? 
Im not looking for any argument , just clear info , it’s sometimes found on this thread in between the extreme views( both sides)  but currency still seems a big debate and will definitely need to be clarified .

 

It's nothing to do with Westminster, Scotland can use any currency we want after Independence. Of course Westminster have a big say in when we have the referendum but not the currency afterwards

[SE16 3LN]

The currency issue can't be brushed under the carpet and will have a huge impact on people's economic well being. On the eve of the never ending Euro collapse in 2009, the Nationalist Party were still proposing the Euro as the preferred form of currency in an independent Scotland. Some key party members were still proposing this as a currency during the referendum campaign. It still hasn't been sorted. Of course Scotland can continue using Sterling and there will be no resistance to that from Westminster. In my opinion It would mean that Scotland has a lot less influence over its economy than it does now but as a short term measure does that bother Scotland?

 

To re-enter the EU, and in spite of the Nationalist opinion on here, Scotland will have to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism and then at some time, the Euro, if the Euro even exists by then. Again Scotland will lose much independence over its own economy. Bottle tops are not an option I'm afraid but it will be for the people to decide.

[XB52]

29 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

I fully agree that the tories will use their project fear , that’s a given , however I can’t agree with your second sentence and it’s something that the snp and pro leave politicians HAVE to address to convince enough people to vote leave.
 

Anyway I feel I’m getting drawn into something I don’t want to be and don’t have enough knowledge of , so I’ll step away again and watch from the side lines . Thanks for the answers tho 👍🏻

Scotland could use the US dollar if we wanted, or they Yen or Shekel.

[XB52]

Just now, SE16 3LN said:

The currency issue can't be brushed under the carpet and will have a huge impact on people's economic well being. On the eve of the never ending Euro collapse in 2009, the Nationalist Party were still proposing the Euro as the preferred form of currency in an independent Scotland. Some key party members were still proposing this as a currency during the referendum campaign. It still hasn't been sorted. Of course Scotland can continue using Sterling and there will be no resistance to that from Westminster. In my opinion It would mean that Scotland has a lot less influence over its economy than it does now but as a short term measure does that bother Scotland?

 

To re-enter the EU, and in spite of the Nationalist opinion on here, Scotland will have to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism and then at some time, the Euro, if the Euro even exists by then. Again Scotland will lose much independence over its own economy. Bottle tops are not an option I'm afraid but it will be for the people to decide.

Afraid your second paragraph is just wrong. Scotland can never be forced to use the euro after joining the EU and that is a fact as they say. We would have to agree to work towards having the euro but there is absolutely nothing that would force us. Having said that, it might be that the euro becomes the preferred currency but that's a different story

[manaliveits105]

In a nutshell snp no further forward from 2014 on currency it’s only been 6 years mind 

Ian Murray is a top bloke 

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Some union that, eh? 😁

 

Well Scotland would be out the union wouldn't they. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

41 minutes ago, XB52 said:

It's nothing to do with Westminster, Scotland can use any currency we want after Independence. Of course Westminster have a big say in when we have the referendum but not the currency afterwards

 

Scotland would have no currency reserves to keep clearing the balance of payments immediately post independence so using the pound would not be viable. I suspect that would apply to all your other fanciful notions of currency as well.

[Dawnrazor]

It's truly unbelievable that the currency question hasn't been cleard up yet considering how important it was in the last referendum, what the **** are the SNP doing about this????

[maroonlegions]

Should be a canter now for the SNP at the next elections.

 

 

SFA referee Douglas Ross confirmed as new Scottish Tory leader

 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

52 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's truly unbelievable that the currency question hasn't been cleard up yet considering how important it was in the last referendum, what the **** are the SNP doing about this????

It has been. It was cleared up at the time but the No side kept playing on it saying we wouldn’t be allowed when there is literally nothing they can do about us using any currency we want. Tied to the Bank of England is another matter but we can use sterling. We likely would for a while as we have the notes in circulation. 
I think some people assume we vote Yes one day and then the next the pound is their pocket isn’t legal anymore. It would take time for the independence to actually happen. 
We’re 4 years past the brexit vote remember. 

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Scotland would have no currency reserves to keep clearing the balance of payments immediately post independence so using the pound would not be viable. I suspect that would apply to all your other fanciful notions of currency as well.

Of course it is viable but it makes no difference to you and your fellow unionists as you will never vote for independence. Hopefully you will embrace the new scotland after independence as its your country (sorry assuming you live in Scotland) 

[Pans Jambo]

29 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It has been. It was cleared up at the time but the No side kept playing on it saying we wouldn’t be allowed when there is literally nothing they can do about us using any currency we want. Tied to the Bank of England is another matter but we can use sterling. We likely would for a while as we have the notes in circulation. 
I think some people assume we vote Yes one day and then the next the pound is their pocket isn’t legal anymore. It would take time for the independence to actually happen. 
We’re 4 years past the brexit vote remember. 

Stop being rational, reasonable and sensible please. Its upsetting the tories and the orange order supporters amongst us.

 

Please for the love of god, tell us that we wont get the BBC on our TV's after Independence anymore!!!

 

Personally, I just hope Tunnock's takes their shitey wee pretend cake factory to Berwick!

[Auld Reekin']

41 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Stop being rational, reasonable and sensible please. Its upsetting the tories and the orange order supporters amongst us.

 

Please for the love of god, tell us that we wont get the BBC on our TV's after Independence anymore!!!

 

Personally, I just hope Tunnock's takes their shitey wee pretend cake factory to Berwick!

 

Hey! Don't go dumping Tunnocks on my favourite Borders town (and one that has been Scottish on many occasions!). Going by the comments about it on another thread, I'd nominate Barrow-in-Furness as being much more appropriate: a total shithole where gastroenteritis apparently runs rampant.

 

It's probably still nicer than Uddingston.   

Edited August 5, 2020 by Auld Reekin'

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

It has been. It was cleared up at the time but the No side kept playing on it saying we wouldn’t be allowed when there is literally nothing they can do about us using any currency we want. Tied to the Bank of England is another matter but we can use sterling. We likely would for a while as we have the notes in circulation. 
I think some people assume we vote Yes one day and then the next the pound is their pocket isn’t legal anymore. It would take time for the independence to actually happen. 
We’re 4 years past the brexit vote remember. 

So Scotland will use the pound sterling after independence but it won't be ties to the bank of england? What would this be worth? I'm genuinely confussed as there are so many for and against arguments.

[Pans Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Hey! Don't go dumping Tunnocks on my favourite Borders town (and one that has been Scottish on many occasions!). Going by the comments about it on another thread, I'd nominate Barrow-in-Furness as being much more appropriate: a total shithole where gastroenteritis apparently runs rampant.

 

It's probably still nicer than Uddingston.   

Agreed. Barrow it is then. Shit stain of a place for more than how it looks!

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Agreed. Barrow it is then. Shit stain of a place for more than how it looks!

It is indeed a shite hole of a place, we went to see Ian McCulloch there a few years ago and it was a dire gig, people couldn't grasp the ides of an acoustic gig and that could carry on like it was a Friday night in pup, morons.

My mate lives in Ulverston, a nice enough town, and his wife worked in social care in Barrow.

I'd not send a Tunnocks anything to Barrow.

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

So Scotland will use the pound sterling after independence but it won't be ties to the bank of england? What would this be worth? I'm genuinely confussed as there are so many for and against arguments.

We can use it yes. It wouldn’t be pound sterling though but it would still be a pound and be worth one pound sterling at exchange. The Irish punt for all intents and purposes was a pound but Ireland found the minute they dropped that things went very well for them. 
I don’t have the stuff to hand but there’s plenty places to find out that the currency issue is merely a stick to hit you over the head with to make you afraid. 
It would make no sense for England not to be pragmatic if Scotland ever voted for indy. It’s all posturing for things like the nuclear subs etc. They really don’t have anywhere to put them in all honesty and the work and time it would take to build a facility. Just put it out to to the people of any region that we’re going to park the biggest collection of nuclear bombs in Europe near their city. I wouldn’t think you’d get that many takers tbh despite unionists also telling you we should be glad of them. There’s been plenty near catastrophic incidents too. It makes our biggest city the first target in any event of a nuclear war. We get incinerated first. 
Id bet they’d get put in somewhere in Wales. 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

We can use it yes. It wouldn’t be pound sterling though but it would still be a pound and be worth one pound sterling at exchange. The Irish punt for all intents and purposes was a pound but Ireland found the minute they dropped that things went very well for them. 
I don’t have the stuff to hand but there’s plenty places to find out that the currency issue is merely a stick to hit you over the head with to make you afraid. 
It would make no sense for England not to be pragmatic if Scotland ever voted for indy. It’s all posturing for things like the nuclear subs etc. They really don’t have anywhere to put them in all honesty and the work and time it would take to build a facility. Just put it out to to the people of any region that we’re going to park the biggest collection of nuclear bombs in Europe near their city. I wouldn’t think you’d get that many takers tbh despite unionists also telling you we should be glad of them. There’s been plenty near catastrophic incidents too. It makes our biggest city the first target in any event of a nuclear war. We get incinerated first. 
Id bet they’d get put in somewhere in Wales. 

Cheers, I get your point about the arms, but surley you can see the problems the ambiguity is causing, for the cause of independence, I can't understand how or why the SNP haven't nailed this down? I think, and I'm a ununist, that a categoric plan on the currency by the SNP could be a game changer and really clinch the argument.

[Auld Reekin']

25 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It is indeed a shite hole of a place, we went to see Ian McCulloch there a few years ago and it was a dire gig, people couldn't grasp the ides of an acoustic gig and that could carry on like it was a Friday night in pup, morons.

My mate lives in Ulverston, a nice enough town, and his wife worked in social care in Barrow.

I'd not send a Tunnocks anything to Barrow.

 

Now there's one job that should be 100% secure!

[jack D and coke]

58 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Cheers, I get your point about the arms, but surley you can see the problems the ambiguity is causing, for the cause of independence, I can't understand how or why the SNP haven't nailed this down? I think, and I'm a ununist, that a categoric plan on the currency by the SNP could be a game changer and really clinch the argument.

Possibly mate and yes I do see the problems the ambiguity causes. I think they’re taking things slowly and it seems for a lot of nationalists too slow nowadays. 
Ive said before I’d be up for an “all or nothing” indyref. Get it all on the table and decide one way or another if we’re a country or a region. This having our cake and eating it can’t go on forever. Even reading things like the corona virus thread it’s bubbling under how much people want to spit venom about the tories or the SNP. Almost anything now it’s this cow or that ***** it’s mind numbing. 
Decide whether we want to be a country or close it all down and take whatever comes our way from WM governments and STFU. 

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Possibly mate and yes I do see the problems the ambiguity causes. I think they’re taking things slowly and it seems for a lot of nationalists too slow nowadays. 
Ive said before I’d be up for an “all or nothing” indyref. Get it all on the table and decide one way or another if we’re a country or a region. This having our cake and eating it can’t go on forever. Even reading things like the corona virus thread it’s bubbling under how much people want to spit venom about the tories or the SNP. Almost anything now it’s this cow or that ***** it’s mind numbing. 
Decide whether we want to be a country or close it all down and take whatever comes our way from WM governments and STFU. 

We differ on independence but I'm with you 100% on the rest of your post, in fact, is that not the longest a discussion has taken place on here without it descending into abuse?!!

[Dawnrazor]

58 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Now there's one job that should be 100% secure!

Sadly, yes😓

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

We differ on independence but I'm with you 100% on the rest of your post, in fact, is that not the longest a discussion has taken place on here without it descending into abuse?!!

Every chance  

I like discussing it man. I don’t pretend to know it all and if corrected happy to take it. 
Anyone who’ll talk about it like an adult I’m all ears👍🏼

[GinRummy]

6 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Probably although I dont know why we dont just "go for it" at the offset.

 

I'm sure there will be a rampant unionist with a blocked nose and a droned voice to say "naaaaaw, ye canny dae that, look at zimbabwe" 

 

They would rather get touched up by their new prospective leader in a bar (allegedly)

Not sure how timing would effect a new currency in the market. If it’s the type of thing you’d want to launch in a recession for example. I think it’s a sensible approach to keep our options open and not put a timescale on it. Our economy and interest rate policy is unlikely to be vastly different from the remaining UK in the short term. 
 

Been looking into this a bit since discussing with a poster on this thread last week and I think the SNP have called it right. 

[GinRummy]

4 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

It's truly unbelievable that the currency question hasn't been cleard up yet considering how important it was in the last referendum, what the **** are the SNP doing about this????

Thought it had been cleared up. They’re keeping sterling in the short to medium term then launching the Scottish pound. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

Thought it had been cleared up. They’re keeping sterling in the short to medium term then launching the Scottish pound. 

Are they?

[GinRummy]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Are they?

So I’ve been told. Is that not correct?

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, GinRummy said:

So I’ve been told. Is that not correct?

I don't know, there seems to be so many arguments as to why they can't use the pound, I honestly don't know! 

This is the point I made before, the lack of certainty.

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I don't know, there seems to be so many arguments as to why they can't use the pound, I honestly don't know! 

This is the point I made before, the lack of certainty.

There are none. We can and probably will use it in the short term.

It won’t be sterling tho (linked to the BOE)

It will be worth £1 sterling. That’s it basically. 

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

I don't know, there seems to be so many arguments as to why they can't use the pound, I honestly don't know! 

This is the point I made before, the lack of certainty.

As far as I can gather and most of my reading is from last year. I’m no politics expert either so happy to be corrected. We stay with sterling short term then move to a Scottish pound. 

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

There are none. We can and probably will use it in the short term.

It won’t be sterling tho (linked to the BOE)

It will be worth £1 sterling. That’s it basically. 

Not doubting you but when did they decide the not sterling bit? I thought it was to be sterling for a time. Then possibly new currency, as you say pegged to sterling . Then not pegged to sterling.  

Edited August 5, 2020 by GinRummy

[Dawnrazor]

Would Scotland not need permission, maybe not the best way to describe it, from the Band of England or Westminster to  use sterling?