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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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Inchgarvie

Very rarely come on Kickback and not been on for ages but can’t believe this thread is still on the go 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👍 😂

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Konrad von Carstein
14 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

We can,  just not at a competitive price it would seem.

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manaliveits105

What an advert for Scottish shipbuilding to the world by the SG though

Im sure many tax payers would have gone along with a more expensive Ferguson build to maintain jobs and promote the reputation of our yards 

Games up the pole now .

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Boy Daniel
31 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

We can,  just not at a competitive price it would seem.


I understand finance plays a part but surely if we want independence then things like being able to sustain a shipbuilding industry and complete the build of two ferries must be perused despite the dearer cost. 
My way would be support this industry and make it more profitable by gaining experience and building a skilled workforce for the future. Initial profit should be sacrificed for a break even scenario and most importantly get the workers onside from the outset. No strikes, no pay rises until our order books start to look healthy then manageable basic pay with a share of the profits when the orders are fulfilled. 
An engaged workforce in the projects is a healthy workforce as they have an investment to look after and also look forward to seeing good remuneration for their efforts. 

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18 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:


I understand finance plays a part but surely if we want independence then things like being able to sustain a shipbuilding industry and complete the build of two ferries must be perused despite the dearer cost. 
My way would be support this industry and make it more profitable by gaining experience and building a skilled workforce for the future. Initial profit should be sacrificed for a break even scenario and most importantly get the workers onside from the outset. No strikes, no pay rises until our order books start to look healthy then manageable basic pay with a share of the profits when the orders are fulfilled. 
An engaged workforce in the projects is a healthy workforce as they have an investment to look after and also look forward to seeing good remuneration for their efforts. 

 

The article says there were serious issues with ferries they'd built before, and that of the 30+ builders who expressed an interest only 4 were actually up to the job.

 

If it was purely down to cost and it wasn't that much I'd tend to agree but it seems there's more to it than that.

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manaliveits105

How about SG  make changes to the Ferguson’s management team and structure to improve production and timescales to become world class ?

naw a step too far for our one track ponies 

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5 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

How about SG  make changes to the Ferguson’s management team and structure to improve production and timescales to become world class ?

naw a step too far for our one track ponies 

 

Aye we'll be world class tomorrow and it'll cost nowt. You'd be the first to whine at the spending needed to build up to a contract, we're talking shipyard money here not renting an extra office.

Bribing the electorate, cynical ploy, blah blah blah

 

You don't think the SNP would love to give a shipbuilding contract to Scottish shipbuilders?

 

Gie yer heid a wobble

 

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14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Aye we'll be world class tomorrow and it'll cost nowt. You'd be the first to whine at the spending needed to build up to a contract, we're talking shipyard money here not renting an extra office.

Bribing the electorate, cynical ploy, blah blah blah

 

You don't think the SNP would love to give a shipbuilding contract to Scottish shipbuilders?

 

Gie yer heid a wobble

 


They own both companies. Ferguson Marine is over 100 years old with a respected heritage. This is all about getting it done much cheaper elsewhere. 

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CF11JamTart
5 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

How about SG  make changes to the Ferguson’s management team and structure to improve production and timescales to become world class ?

naw a step too far for our one track ponies 

Isn't that what they are trying to do with Turnaround specialist Tim Hair?

 

Regardless, SG would look really reckless to award further work to a yard which seems to be struggling to deliver what's already on their plate. 

 

It would be good if there was proper review on how we got here... And not just arse-covering. 

 

Lack of design and build capability in the yard? 

Uncontrolled scope change?

Client expectations different to the contracted requirements? 

 

Dunno, but being honest is essential to avoid procurement foul-ups down the line. 

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15 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


They own both companies. Ferguson Marine is over 100 years old with a respected heritage. This is all about getting it done much cheaper elsewhere. 

 

And yet from what I've read there were big issues with the last ferries they've built.

 

Shipyards were awarded ratings based on their technical and financial suitability, and Ferguson didn't make the cut. Only 4 out of 30+ did, and that's before the tendering even starts.

 

Major issues with their last two ferries will also likely trump their respected heritage.

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4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

And yet from what I've read there were big issues with the last ferries they've built.

 

Shipyards were awarded ratings based on their technical and financial suitability, and Ferguson didn't make the cut. Only 4 out of 30+ did, and that's before the tendering even starts.

 

Major issues with their last two ferries will also likely trump their respected heritage.


Then why let them put in a tender? They are both nationalised companies. 

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CF11JamTart
9 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


Then why let them put in a tender? They are both nationalised companies. 

Good point. But to what extent are SG trying to give Fergusons some autonomy? 

 

A behind-closed-doors chat saying "don't bother, you won't get it", wouldn't look good. 

 

Better let them put in a response and succeed or fail. 

 

Also, this is presumably the pre-qualification stage, to thin the competition down to a much smaller number for the ITT stage, where with detailed priced submissions will be developed. So the procuring agency only has a manageable number of exam papers to mark 

 

Getting booted out at the pre-qualification stage is a bit embarrassing, but they wouldn't tend to spend huge amounts of time or £ on a pre-qualification response. 

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henryheart
2 hours ago, BarneyBattles said:

I don't know much about Opinium / Sky polls in terms of how many are polled etc. but found this interesting:

 

image.png.70d813d690b135a2edb066a74dec8222.png

 

I'm not really surprised by this. I voted yes in 1978, but voted no at the latest referendum, and should there ever be another legal vote I would say no. Most people, as they age, understand what is important and get beyond the dream. Those who don't are idealist rather than practical. I look back on what I thought back when I was a teenager and in my twenties and thirties and can only shake my head. The older you get, the greater perspective of what is important and what life's priorities are. You learn on what side your bread is buttered. It should be the role of any government to smooth the lives of the population, and not to create turmoil and confusion based on ideological pipe dreams. 

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1 hour ago, Des Lynam said:


Then why let them put in a tender? They are both nationalised companies. 

 

They didn't, only 4 companies are

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14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

They didn't, only 4 companies are


Sorry not a tender but they put in a bid which shouldn’t have happened if they had no chance. I understand that the Scottish government took ownership in 2019 and have had to deal with challenging circumstances but mishaps like this can be avoided. 

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CF11JamTart
17 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

They didn't, only 4 companies are

Yes. 

 

It looks like Fergusons got booted out at the pre-qualification stage... The beauty contest to trim down the competition. 

 

4 companies will be progressing through the Invitation To Tender stage.... Fully priced proposals etc. 

 

 

Overall, I'm not sure what the news story is here...

 

"SG decides to run a proper competition, rather than award contract to yard which is struggling to delivery existing contract". 

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1 hour ago, CF11JamTart said:

Good point. But to what extent are SG trying to give Fergusons some autonomy? 

 

A behind-closed-doors chat saying "don't bother, you won't get it", wouldn't look good. 

 

Better let them put in a response and succeed or fail. 

 

Also, this is presumably the pre-qualification stage, to thin the competition down to a much smaller number for the ITT stage, where with detailed priced submissions will be developed. So the procuring agency only has a manageable number of exam papers to mark 

 

Getting booted out at the pre-qualification stage is a bit embarrassing, but they wouldn't tend to spend huge amounts of time or £ on a pre-qualification response. 


I agree that even though nationalised they should have some degree of autonomy. I don’t trust politicians in general but certainly not when it comes to business. I’ll admit I’m probably overreacting but it’s just frustrating to watch incompetency from a government with such a mandate. 

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CF11JamTart
2 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


I agree that even though nationalised they should have some degree of autonomy. I don’t trust politicians in general but certainly not when it comes to business. I’ll admit I’m probably overreacting but it’s just frustrating to watch incompetency from a government with such a mandate. 

I agree with you. 

 

My frustration is that this could be a really good opportunity to establish a strong commercial shipyard capability. Arguably a good strategic asset for an independent Scotland. 

 

But I'm not confident in the capability of SG / CMAL not to make an arse of it. 

 

We need to understand how we got to where we are with Glen Sannox and Hull 802.

 

Was it Fergusons being rubbish? Was it the procuring agency being rubbish? Or a combination? Is SG just not experienced in managing large, complex contracts? 

 

Until we get to the bottom of that and change stuff, we'll struggle. Fergusons will be stuck in a loop of getting beaten-up for non-delivery. 

 

We cannot simply cling to the mantra "we're Scottish... We build the best ships in the world".

 

The other side is that whilst it's laudable the SG takes ownership of struggling businesses, it needs to know what it's taking on, and have the skills to oversee it. 

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53 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


Sorry not a tender but they put in a bid which shouldn’t have happened if they had no chance. I understand that the Scottish government took ownership in 2019 and have had to deal with challenging circumstances but mishaps like this can be avoided. 

 

How would they know they had no chance without seeing who else was into it?

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henryheart
20 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

I agree with you. 

 

My frustration is that this could be a really good opportunity to establish a strong commercial shipyard capability. Arguably a good strategic asset for an independent Scotland. 

 

But I'm not confident in the capability of SG / CMAL not to make an arse of it. 

 

We need to understand how we got to where we are with Glen Sannox and Hull 802.

 

Was it Fergusons being rubbish? Was it the procuring agency being rubbish? Or a combination? Is SG just not experienced in managing large, complex contracts? 

 

Until we get to the bottom of that and change stuff, we'll struggle. Fergusons will be stuck in a loop of getting beaten-up for non-delivery. 

 

We cannot simply cling to the mantra "we're Scottish... We build the best ships in the world".

 

The other side is that whilst it's laudable the SG takes ownership of struggling businesses, it needs to know what it's taking on, and have the skills to oversee it. 

 

Therein lies the problem. It would be laudable if the takeover was done for the right reasons, but it should not be forgotten that a SG takeover was not the only option; could it be that the decision was made for political reasons by people who wanted to save their own embarrassment and flex their muscles, but who in reality couldn't run a corner shop? 

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CF11JamTart
1 minute ago, henryheart said:

 

Therein lies the problem. It would be laudable if the takeover was done for the right reasons, but it should not be forgotten that a SG takeover was not the only option; could it be that the decision was made for political reasons by people who wanted to save their own embarrassment and flex their muscles, but who in reality couldn't run a corner shop? 

 

Great to bail-out, but that's now a problematic shipyard and airport in public ownership.

 

But hey..  I live in Wales where there seems to be no industrial strategy whatsoever. 

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Humza showing his competence and understanding, once again. While there are no doubt chancers, does he really want to be putting folk off calling an ambulance? Didn't that pop singer that died recently put off going to get checked out because of all the covid stuff?

 

These clowns have had a year and a half to put structures in place to allow routine NHS functionality to operate alongside support for those suffering due to CV19. Instead, we get the health minister telling folk to think twice before calling for an ambulance while his party diverts funds and attention to constitutional matters.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58568820

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henryheart
1 hour ago, CF11JamTart said:

 

Great to bail-out, but that's now a problematic shipyard and airport in public ownership.

 

But hey..  I live in Wales where there seems to be no industrial strategy whatsoever. 

 

The Scottish Government doesn't have an industrial strategy either. The best it has is a Junior Minister for Business, Trade, Tourism and Enterprise and I would doubt if many, if anyone, knows who he is.  The harsh reality is that it seems to simply jump in with no long term plan of action on an ad hoc basis when it needs a short term good news story or to head off a potential bad news story.  

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CF11JamTart
32 minutes ago, henryheart said:

 

The Scottish Government doesn't have an industrial strategy either. The best it has is a Junior Minister for Business, Trade, Tourism and Enterprise and I would doubt if many, if anyone, knows who he is.  The harsh reality is that it seems to simply jump in with no long term plan of action on an ad hoc basis when it needs a short term good news story or to head off a potential bad news story.  

 

 

Sounds familiar. The main growth industry here seems to be promoting the Welsh language in South East Wales. 

 

More seriously, wouldn't it be good if a government (any government) declared their industrial strategy... "What do we think this place will look like and what will we all be doing in 5 / 10 / 25 years.... And how we will get there?".

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Pans Jambo
4 hours ago, henryheart said:

 

I'm not really surprised by this. I voted yes in 1978, but voted no at the latest referendum, and should there ever be another legal vote I would say no. Most people, as they age, understand what is important and get beyond the dream. Those who don't are idealist rather than practical. I look back on what I thought back when I was a teenager and in my twenties and thirties and can only shake my head. The older you get, the greater perspective of what is important and what life's priorities are. You learn on what side your bread is buttered. It should be the role of any government to smooth the lives of the population, and not to create turmoil and confusion based on ideological pipe dreams. 

Sounds like your have bent over and took the union bobby to me mate!

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Pans Jambo
On 22/02/2020 at 00:03, Guest said:

Back in 2007, it was a very different picture. 

The Holyrood result in 2011 broke the system and allowed a minority view to overshadow the people of Scotland ever since.

 

Since then,  Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon have both failed in their only objective. 

The cost of pursuing an 'the end justifies the means' campaign is returning home to roost. 

And that is before any mention of sexual/financial indiscretions, that have been reported so far.

 

Now, in 2020, it seems like The SNP are finished. 

 

Does it now? 

 

 

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I eh (ahem), dont seem to be able to access the tory lies thread so I will just leave this here for the loony yoonies to remind them what their glorious leader  Boris has been saying about Brexit.
Let’s have a wee rundown:

£350million for the NHS - Lie!
No food shortages - Lie!
Food will be cheaper - Lie!
No barriers to trade - Lie!
Manufacturing safe - Lie!
No regression on rights - Lie!
No tax rises - Lie!
Pensions triple locked - Lie!
40 new hospitals - Lie!

And last but not least…

Cheaper gas bills - Lie!

 

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1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

I eh (ahem), dont seem to be able to access the tory lies thread so I will just leave this here for the loony yoonies to remind them what their glorious leader  Boris has been saying about Brexit.
Let’s have a wee rundown:

£350million for the NHS - Lie!
No food shortages - Lie!
Food will be cheaper - Lie!
No barriers to trade - Lie!
Manufacturing safe - Lie!
No regression on rights - Lie!
No tax rises - Lie!
Pensions triple locked - Lie!
40 new hospitals - Lie!

And last but not least…

Cheaper gas bills - Lie!

 

 

ED243F7C-ECF0-4DCB-8406-A7A0DFF76564.jpeg

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On 15/09/2021 at 15:13, Pans Jambo said:

Sounds like your have bent over and took the union bobby to me mate!

 

0A3F3781-F11B-4EEA-AB98-DCBB32F9AA4E.gif

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On 15/09/2021 at 10:42, henryheart said:

 

I'm not really surprised by this. I voted yes in 1978, but voted no at the latest referendum, and should there ever be another legal vote I would say no. Most people, as they age, understand what is important and get beyond the dream. Those who don't are idealist rather than practical. I look back on what I thought back when I was a teenager and in my twenties and thirties and can only shake my head. The older you get, the greater perspective of what is important and what life's priorities are. You learn on what side your bread is buttered. It should be the role of any government to smooth the lives of the population, and not to create turmoil and confusion based on ideological pipe dreams. 

I'm 60 and disagree with your ignorant post.

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Scottish voters have torpedoed Nicola Sturgeon’s claim that “democracy is being denied” by Downing Street’s block on a second independence referendum with most agreeing that the prime minister should have the final say over a fresh ballot.

A poll by Redfield and Wilton Strategies for the Politico website found that 43 per cent of adults believe that any rerun of 2014 should only take place if the UK government agrees to it. By contrast, 38 per cent disagreed with the suggestion.

Powers over the constitution are reserved to Westminster and UK ministers have consistently said that now is not the time for another referendum despite Sturgeon’s insistence that one should be held before the end of 2023.

The first minister has said the SNP-Green government at Holyrood will pass its own Referendum Bill if the impasse continues, although it was not included in her programme for government. Instead she instructed civil servants to start working on a renewed case for separation.

It is widely believed that any challenge to a unilateral Scottish parliament-only referendum would be struck down if challenged in the Supreme Court.

Pamela Nash, the chief executive of Scotland in Union, the anti-independence group, said: “This is yet another poll which shows that a majority of people in Scotland oppose the SNP’s negative vision for our future.

“The very last thing our country needs right now is more division and uncertainty, which is why the SNP should drop its obsession with the constitution and focus on what matters to people – the NHS, jobs and the climate emergency.”

The poll found that 47 per cent of people would vote “no” to independence in another referendum, compared to 44 per cent who would back “yes” and nine per cent who said they were undecided.

This is the same result Redfield and Wilton returned at the start of August and is consistent with more polling since May’s Holyrood election. Just a single survey, by Opinium this month, put support for independence in the lead, by 51 per cent to 49 per cent.

Exactly half of people surveyed for the new poll said they were opposed to reopening the constitutional argument within the next year with one third in favour.

This leveled out when the timeframe was extended to five years, with 42 per cent against and 41 per cent supportive.

Fifty-two per cent of people said they supported the suggestion by Alister Jack, the Scottish secretary, that the UK government would agree to a referendum if polls show 60 per cent of Scottish voters want one. Just 25 percent disagreed with Jack’s assessment.

Kirsten Oswald, the SNP’s deputy leader at Westminster, said: “There is a cast-iron democratic mandate for an independence referendum in the current Holyrood term – and there is no democratic justification whatsoever for Boris Johnson or any UK prime minister to try and block that mandate.

“In the election in May, pro-independence parties won a clear majority, with the SNP winning the highest number of votes and share of the vote in the history of the Scottish parliament.”

 

https://apple.news/AWIPfSmnISDmlyf0z6uXvlA

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On 15/09/2021 at 08:20, BarneyBattles said:

I don't know much about Opinium / Sky polls in terms of how many are polled etc. but found this interesting:

 

image.png.70d813d690b135a2edb066a74dec8222.png

Looking back on recent posts and this one is interesting. 

 

The breakdown hasn't overly changed since the 2014 referendum. 

 

[Edit] Link to the 2014 stats including a breakdown by age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

Purely a personal opinion but i think as people get older there's a number who just don't want uncertainty as they plan for retirement. There will be people in the 55-64 age group will probably have a level of fear about ripping things up. The 65+ age i suspect are a lot of people who are stuck in their ways and not interested in debating/change at that part of their life. 

 

I still think that over time the figures will change and continue to move towards Independence. As an example there were people who were worried about pensions in 2014 and that will see that issue dissipate. In the coming years more people will have private pensions/employer based pensions removing the fear stories about that.

Edited by Mysterion
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1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

Looking back on recent posts and this one is interesting. 

 

The breakdown hasn't overly changed since the 2014 referendum. 

 

[Edit] Link to the 2014 stats including a breakdown by age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

Purely a personal opinion but i think as people get older there's a number who just don't want uncertainty as they plan for retirement. There will be people in the 55-64 age group will probably have a level of fear about ripping things up. The 65+ age i suspect are a lot of people who are stuck in their ways and not interested in debating/change at that part of their life. 

 

I still think that over time the figures will change and continue to move towards Independence. As an example there were people who were worried about pensions in 2014 and that will see that issue dissipate. In the coming years more people will have private pensions/employer based pensions removing the fear stories about that.

Worst pensions in Europe! No idea why they would wish to hold onto that!

 

I'm in my 50's and its a Yes from me!

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3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Worst pensions in Europe! No idea why they would wish to hold onto that!

 

I'm in my 50's and its a Yes from me!


Because the SNP haven’t put forward a credible economic argument to counter this. 

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Just now, Des Lynam said:


Because the SNP haven’t put forward a credible economic argument to counter this. 

For me the SNP can whistle. Scottish Independence does not belong the them. They will drive it sure, but I only need to see all the shite that being part of this union has cost my country and then I look at similar sized independent countries that are successful to know we should be too (Ireland, Belgium, Finland, Iceland, Norway etc etc etc.).

 

If anything, I need convinced that the union is the way to go but to be honest, I wont hold my breath.

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1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

For me the SNP can whistle. Scottish Independence does not belong the them. They will drive it sure, but I only need to see all the shite that being part of this union has cost my country and then I look at similar sized independent countries that are successful to know we should be too (Ireland, Belgium, Finland, Iceland, Norway etc etc etc.).

 

If anything, I need convinced that the union is the way to go but to be honest, I wont hold my breath.


That is a ridiculous statement. 

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3 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


Really? 
 

They are the only ones who have been consistently driving the independence issue. 

Well yes I did say they are driving it but it wont belong to them, it will belong to us! They are only there because we put them there.

 

Theresa May

David Cameron

Gordon Brown

Tony Blair

John Major etc.

 

What have they all got in common? They were in power but they are no longer. Be the same with the SNP, they wont be in power for ever after independence. Thing always come to an end...same will be so for the union.

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9 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


That is a ridiculous statement. 

It's ridiculous to think that an independent Scotland will belong to the SNP  

They are a means to an end for a large of independence votes and aren't going to be instantly the eternal Scottish government.

They are pushing for us to get there but their policies won't be the only option post independence.

If it's a no vote, is it always a tory government after that?

I won't be voting for them pist independence as they aren't left wing enough regarding things like energy, health, transport etc.

I'd nationalise all of them in an independent Scotland. 

Just making that point to show that they are necessarily to get there and then we have the usual options in an general election.

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4 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

It's ridiculous to think that an independent Scotland will belong to the SNP  

They are a means to an end for a large of independence votes and aren't going to be instantly the eternal Scottish government.

They are pushing for us to get there but their policies won't be the only option post independence.

If it's a no vote, is it always a tory government after that?

I won't be voting for them pist independence as they aren't left wing enough regarding things like energy, health, transport etc.

I'd nationalise all of them in an independent Scotland. 

Just making that point to show that they are necessarily to get there and then we have the usual options in an general election.


The majority have shown they aren’t convinced by your point. I’d also guess the concern is how much damage they do before we have this amazing new non snp government. 

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The Real Maroonblood
9 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

It's ridiculous to think that an independent Scotland will belong to the SNP  

They are a means to an end for a large of independence votes and aren't going to be instantly the eternal Scottish government.

They are pushing for us to get there but their policies won't be the only option post independence.

If it's a no vote, is it always a tory government after that?

I won't be voting for them pist independence as they aren't left wing enough regarding things like energy, health, transport etc.

I'd nationalise all of them in an independent Scotland. 

Just making that point to show that they are necessarily to get there and then we have the usual options in an general election.

Excellent post.

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11 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Well yes I did say they are driving it but it wont belong to them, it will belong to us! They are only there because we put them there.

 

Theresa May

David Cameron

Gordon Brown

Tony Blair

John Major etc.

 

What have they all got in common? They were in power but they are no longer. Be the same with the SNP, they wont be in power for ever after independence. Thing always come to an end...same will be so for the union.

 

6 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

It's ridiculous to think that an independent Scotland will belong to the SNP  

They are a means to an end for a large of independence votes and aren't going to be instantly the eternal Scottish government.

They are pushing for us to get there but their policies won't be the only option post independence.

If it's a no vote, is it always a tory government after that?

I won't be voting for them pist independence as they aren't left wing enough regarding things like energy, health, transport etc.

I'd nationalise all of them in an independent Scotland. 

Just making that point to show that they are necessarily to get there and then we have the usual options in an general election.


If you guys think the SNP will disappear after Independence then i think that’s incredibly naive in the extreme. The noses are firmly in the trough. 
 

You’d nationalise them all? Why? 

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2 minutes ago, Dazo said:


The majority have shown they aren’t convinced by your point. I’d also guess the concern is how much damage they do before we have this amazing new non snp government. 

My post wasn't about the majority now being convinced to vote yes, it was about the snp not being the be all and end all post independence if it 'ever' happens. 

Get the distinction now? 

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1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 


If you guys think the SNP will disappear after Independence then i think that’s incredibly naive in the extreme. The noses are firmly in the trough. 
 

You’d nationalise them all? Why? 

They won't disappear, they just won't be the only option for running the country.  That's what you are saying. 

I'm not debating the other point as it was an example of why  I won't be voting for them post independence, if it ever happens. 

All the parties that stand for Westminster will be the various options available if an independent Scotland has a general election.

Get it now? 

T

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Just now, Auldbenches said:

My post wasn't about the majority now being convinced to vote yes, it was about the snp not being the be all and end all post independence if it 'ever' happens. 

Get the distinction now? 


Your post was pretty clear as I thought why mine was. We will never get to see what happens because of the state the snp currently run the country. If the snp concentrated on making Scotland a better country now instead of unicorn promises independence would be done and dusted.  

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