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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Scotland should have a government that's accountable to the Scottish people, one that we can vote out if and when we like.

Sure I didn’t vote for the snp back in May but I’m stuck with them for the next 5 years. 

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2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

A real, hyperbole stuffed post  Jack D. You've been reading too many red tops by the sound of things😂

 

A failed state? ffs😂. Will that be the same UK that has just signed a major defence initiative with Australia and the US? The Aussies ditched the "failed state" of France in the process.

Or the UK that is expected to hit record economic growth this year and return to pre-pandemic levels by Q1 2022?

Or the UK that provided a world leading vaccination programme, months ahead of Europe?

Or the UK that offered the most generous furlough scheme in the G7, apart from the US?

 

The problem with fuel is nothing to do with a shortage of supplies. The SG and WM have both assured the public that supplies are plentiful. The problem, as always, is PEOPLE.  Stupid people, panic buying,  as confirmed by the Petrol Retailers Association. 

 

Seriously, some of the ingrained hatred of all things WM and Toaary is clouding a lot of posters' judgement. 

I'm just highlighting the fact that any accusation of failure, sleaze or incompetence levelled against the UK govt, can also be thrown in spades back at the Scottish govt.

I really don't know where this Scottish "exceptionalism", the moral high-horse mentality comes from. It's certainly not my experience of a modern day Scotland, riven by division and bitterness along sectarian and political lines. 

If you are measuring a states success on military contracts that says more about you IMO. One of the reasons OZ are dealing with Blighty and the US is likely because the best war mongers on the planet have the most experience in designing and utilising the worlds best WMD's. 

 

Pity the US just doesn't want a deal with the UK and your Boris though eh?

 

Economic growth from where it was a year ago during lockdown you mean? Extremely low starting point but you can make statistics sing for you if you want mate but the foodbank growth should be measured along with the rise in food prices, energy prices and tax hikes....plus the removal of financial support to the poorest families in time for Christmas.

 

When was the last tory financial target ever hit? Never, thats when!

 

Paint the "its all rosey in the YOOKAY" if you like mate but you probably still think Brexit is a good idea too...

Edited by Pans Jambo
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10 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

Sure I didn’t vote for the snp back in May but I’m stuck with them for the next 5 years. 

 

The Tories formed the government mate

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jack D and coke
2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

A real, hyperbole stuffed post  Jack D. You've been reading too many red tops by the sound of things😂

 

A failed state? ffs😂. Will that be the same UK that has just signed a major defence initiative with Australia and the US? The Aussies ditched the "failed state" of France in the process.

Or the UK that is expected to hit record economic growth this year and return to pre-pandemic levels by Q1 2022?

Or the UK that provided a world leading vaccination programme, months ahead of Europe?

Or the UK that offered the most generous furlough scheme in the G7, apart from the US?

 

The problem with fuel is nothing to do with a shortage of supplies. The SG and WM have both assured the public that supplies are plentiful. The problem, as always, is PEOPLE.  Stupid people, panic buying,  as confirmed by the Petrol Retailers Association. 

 

Seriously, some of the ingrained hatred of all things WM and Toaary is clouding a lot of posters' judgement. 

I'm just highlighting the fact that any accusation of failure, sleaze or incompetence levelled against the UK govt, can also be thrown in spades back at the Scottish govt.

I really don't know where this Scottish "exceptionalism", the moral high-horse mentality comes from. It's certainly not my experience of a modern day Scotland, riven by division and bitterness along sectarian and political lines. 

I don’t think I’ve looked at a paper for ten years or more. The rest is just Britain is barry and nothing is wrong which is pretty standard stuff for you whilst a sly dig at the end like the SNP invented sectarianism :lol: and will get religious war if independent. 
 

31A59812-39B5-4676-8AC0-8F3A0F072C3C.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t think I’ve looked at a paper for ten years or more. The rest is just Britain is barry and nothing is wrong which is pretty standard stuff for you whilst a sly dig at the end like the SNP invented sectarianism :lol: and will get religious war if independent. 
 

31A59812-39B5-4676-8AC0-8F3A0F072C3C.jpeg

No, if you read my post, I'm pointing out that the ingrained hatred and biases against anything WM and Tory, is preventing posters from seeing the acute failures of the SNP.

Why you have posted a picture of Murdo Fraser, only you will know.

 

Sometimes,  from a political perspective,  I feel this board is more akin to the denizens of Kerrydale Street.

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

No, if you read my post, I'm pointing out that the ingrained hatred and biases against anything WM and Tory, is preventing posters from seeing the acute failures of the SNP.

Why you have posted a picture of Murdo Fraser, only you will know.

 

Sometimes,  from a political perspective,  I feel this board is more akin to the denizens of Kerrydale Street.

Well you seem to suggest it’s all the SNP dividing people. I’d say Murdo in a sash isn’t the best look but maybe that’s just me. 
Kerrydale street I’ve no idea what that means other than suggesting there’s sectarian undertones again.
You really don’t know me to suggest stuff like that :lol: 
I don’t hate Britain. I don’t particularly like the snp either but I digress. 

I CBA with this today anyway so have a good one. 

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5 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

No, if you read my post, I'm pointing out that the ingrained hatred and biases against anything WM and Tory, is preventing posters from seeing the acute failures of the SNP.

Why you have posted a picture of Murdo Fraser, only you will know.

 

Sometimes,  from a political perspective,  I feel this board is more akin to the denizens of Kerrydale Street.

 

Nah that's just what's easy for you to attack.

I'm not blind to the SNP, as I've said before I've voted against them.

 

But Scotland deserves the right to hold its government to account.

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Just now, Smithee said:

 

Nah that's just what's easy for you to attack.

I'm not blind to the SNP, as I've said before I've voted against them.

 

But Scotland deserves the right to hold its government to account.

He has no intention of seeing the difference.  Talk about why you want to govern ourselves and we are all snp sheep.

Numerous posts have pointed this out and it doesn't matter as the snp will run Scotland for centuries.

 

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2 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

He has no intention of seeing the difference.  Talk about why you want to govern ourselves and we are all snp sheep.

Numerous posts have pointed this out and it doesn't matter as the snp will run Scotland for centuries.

 

 

I'm not trying to convince Enzo, I'm really talking to those quiet, thoughtful people who read but don't post, there are thousands of them.

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4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Nah that's just what's easy for you to attack.

I'm not blind to the SNP, as I've said before I've voted against them.

 

But Scotland deserves the right to hold its government to account.

The paradox being that the obsession with wanting to "govern ourselves " means that the incumbent SNP govt are not "being held to account" for their shambolic failings in running the country, with the numerous powers that they have.

People are voting SNP to get another shot at an independence vote while, simultaneously,  not caring about how Scotland is being governed. This allows Sturgeon to present her party as being in Govt and opposition at the same time.

 

Most people have seen through this, however, and slowly, but surely, her day is coming as she paints herself into a corner.

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1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm not trying to convince Enzo, I'm really talking to those quiet, thoughtful people who read but don't post, there are thousands of them.

I wonder why they don't post?  It's an issue that doesn't have this emotive but sadly in our culture there's no chance of that.  

It is fascinating debate that shouldn't be descend into what it has. 

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1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The paradox being that the obsession with wanting to "govern ourselves " means that the incumbent SNP govt are not "being held to account" for their shambolic failings in running the country, with the numerous powers that they have.

People are voting SNP to get another shot at an independence vote while, simultaneously,  not caring about how Scotland is being governed. This allows Sturgeon to present her party as being in Govt and opposition at the same time.

 

Most people have seen through this, however, and slowly, but surely, her day is coming as she paints herself into a corner.

 

Why should we get the government England's electorate votes for?

 

Why should we not have a government that has Scotland as it's priority?

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3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The paradox being that the obsession with wanting to "govern ourselves " means that the incumbent SNP govt are not "being held to account" for their shambolic failings in running the country, with the numerous powers that they have.

People are voting SNP to get another shot at an independence vote while, simultaneously,  not caring about how Scotland is being governed. This allows Sturgeon to present her party as being in Govt and opposition at the same time.

 

Most people have seen through this, however, and slowly, but surely, her day is coming as she paints herself into a corner.

Doesn't it highlight just how much some people want to govern ourselves if they are willing to accept all the snp faults?  

They won't be the automatic choice for everyone in a post independence Scotland.  

Do you think they are doing themselves any favours if things are as bad as you say?  

 

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3 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

I wonder why they don't post?  It's an issue that doesn't have this emotive but sadly in our culture there's no chance of that.  

It is fascinating debate that shouldn't be descend into what it has. 

 

Maybe they just aren't as opinionated as us.

They all have a vote though!

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Why should we get the government England's electorate votes for?

 

Why should we not have a government that has Scotland as it's priority?

We have a Scot Gov that has full control over health, education, income tax rates, policing etc etc. It also has many welfare and employment powers and chooses to hand out freebies like sweeties. It also benefits from the fiscal transfers from the Barnett consequentials that support the spending.

Why are you not worried about holding them to account rather than obsessing about ideological fantasies?

 

How exactly would "getting a govt that we vote for" improve the lot of you and others?? Why is that even important to you?

 

The majority of people don't "get the Govt" that they, as individuals, vote for? People don't have an automatic right to get the govt they vote for.

 

Surely, good governance is more important than the nationality or residential status of the people who voted?

Great Britain is an island nation and therefore there will always be areas of common ground that need to be voted on across the entire country.

 

Sturgeon had the power to choose a different route with international travel restrictions but didn't.  She knew it was fruitless to implement a different approach.  That is the nature of it and will continue to be so, regardless of imaginary borders.

 

 

I didn't vote for the SNP/Greens in May but I'm stuck with them for 5 years in Govt.

 

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43 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The paradox being that the obsession with wanting to "govern ourselves " means that the incumbent SNP govt are not "being held to account" for their shambolic failings in running the country, with the numerous powers that they have.

People are voting SNP to get another shot at an independence vote while, simultaneously,  not caring about how Scotland is being governed. This allows Sturgeon to present her party as being in Govt and opposition at the same time.

 

Most people have seen through this, however, and slowly, but surely, her day is coming as she paints herself into a corner.

I vote SNP as they're Scottish but have their faults as do most governments. I dread to think what would happen to Scotland if the unionist parties were in power here. The comments from their followers are bad enough!

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36 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Doesn't it highlight just how much some people want to govern ourselves if they are willing to accept all the snp faults?  

They won't be the automatic choice for everyone in a post independence Scotland.  

Do you think they are doing themselves any favours if things are as bad as you say?  

 

It's not just the SNP though, is it. The quality of politician, the life experience,  the competency levels of most of those in Holyrood,  with a handful of exceptions, is embarrassing. 

The very same people will be vying for power in a separate Scotland and, when you turn that stone over, out will come the Colin Fox's, Tommy Sheridan's, Rosie Kane's, Patrick Harvie's of this world, all bigger fish in a smaller pond. It would be messy imo.

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2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's not just the SNP though, is it. The quality of politician, the life experience,  the competency levels of most of those in Holyrood,  with a handful of exceptions, is embarrassing. 

The very same people will be vying for power in a separate Scotland and, when you turn that stone over, out will come the Colin Fox's, Tommy Sheridan's, Rosie Kane's, Patrick Harvie's of this world, all bigger fish in a smaller pond. It would be messy imo.

How do you know that? People from all walks of life would be attracted to govern our country. The psyche and mindset would change. There would be a more positive outlook and we would generally pull in the same direction. Bigots may think differently. IMO.

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Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's not just the SNP though, is it. The quality of politician, the life experience,  the competency levels of most of those in Holyrood,  with a handful of exceptions, is embarrassing. 

The very same people will be vying for power in a separate Scotland and, when you turn that stone over, out will come the Colin Fox's, Tommy Sheridan's, Rosie Kane's, Patrick Harvie's of this world, all bigger fish in a smaller pond. It would be messy imo.

Some might have the same opinion about the quality of the politicians in Westminster.  You'll obviously disagree with this.

Is it only non tory politicians that aren't up to the job? 

Surely some Scottish mps from various parties would come back to Holyrood and increase the amount that would be able to do he job?

Is it only Scottish politicians that are inadequate? 

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2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I vote SNP as they're Scottish but have their faults as do most governments. I dread to think what would happen to Scotland if the unionist parties were in power here. The comments from their followers are bad enough!

All the politicians in Holyrood are "Scottish" perhaps with the exception of Mike Russell and Angus Robertson. 

Why is "being Scottish " so important to you?

I think most sensible people can see that any of the Unionist parties would do a far better job of governing Scotland than the SNP. 

They would make devolution work for all the Scottish people and would work constructively with WM.

it's not in the SNPs interest for devolution to work, as long as they have half the country uninterested in holding them to account and are able to blame WM for their failings.

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1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How do you know that? People from all walks of life would be attracted to govern our country. The psyche and mindset would change. There would be a more positive outlook and we would generally pull in the same direction. Bigots may think differently. IMO.

The psyche and mindset would change would it??:cornette:

 

Although when the freebies stopped and the bills landed on the mat then, yes, possibly the mindset would change.😂

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4 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Some might have the same opinion about the quality of the politicians in Westminster.  You'll obviously disagree with this.

Is it only non tory politicians that aren't up to the job? 

Surely some Scottish mps from various parties would come back to Holyrood and increase the amount that would be able to do he job?

Is it only Scottish politicians that are inadequate? 

People, historically,  move from Scotland to improve their life chances. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, tradesmen,  politicians.  Not many move from WM back to Holyrood tbh. Those who do; Salmind, Ross hold on to their main job too.

That's not going to change, quite the opposite imo, in the event of breaking away from rUK.

 

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2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The psyche and mindset would change would it??:cornette:

 

Although when the freebies stopped and the bills landed on the mat then, yes, possibly the mindset would change.😂

Of course it would change as there wouldn't be any focus  on Westminster. We would be governing ourselves under  more scrutiny. You think differently so that's fine. 

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4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The psyche and mindset would change would it??:cornette:

 

Although when the freebies stopped and the bills landed on the mat then, yes, possibly the mindset would change.😂

How come you were criticising the Scottish government for having to bring the army in to drive ambulances but nothing about Westminster bringing them in to deal with the fuel shortage? 

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3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

People, historically,  move from Scotland to improve their life chances. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, tradesmen,  politicians.  Not many move from WM back to Holyrood tbh. Those who do; Salmind, Ross hold on to their main job too.

That's not going to change, quite the opposite imo, in the event of breaking away from rUK.

 

That doesn't answer the question. 

Is it only Scottish politicians that are inadequate?  

Also think your post shows your whole attitude towards Scotland.   

Edited by Auldbenches
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7 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

All the politicians in Holyrood are "Scottish" perhaps with the exception of Mike Russell and Angus Robertson. 

Why is "being Scottish " so important to you?

I think most sensible people can see that any of the Unionist parties would do a far better job of governing Scotland than the SNP. 

They would make devolution work for all the Scottish people and would work constructively with WM.

it's not in the SNPs interest for devolution to work, as long as they have half the country uninterested in holding them to account and are able to blame WM for their failings.

I meant the party are Scottish as in based here. I don't care what nationalities make up the party. If you live in Scotland and pay your taxes I believe your as Scottish as me. 

 

Being Scottish gives me some identity as a person. You love being British so be happy 👍

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23 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

 

How exactly would "getting a govt that we vote for" improve the lot of you and others?? Why is that even important to you?

 

 

Scotland deserves a government that puts Scotland's interests first.

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Just now, Smithee said:

 

Scotland deserves a government that puts Scotland's interests first.

We certainly do, which made May's election results so disappointing 

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7 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

That doesn't answer the question. 

Is it only Scottish politicians that are inadequate?  

Also think your post shows your whole attitude towards Scotland.   

I'm just stating facts regarding emigration.

 

I think that the more capable Scottish politicians move on from Scotland.  So, in terms of current politicians, yeah, imo, the quality of the discourse between Holyrood and WM highlights the inadequacies. 

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1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'm just stating facts regarding emigration.

 

I think that the more capable Scottish politicians move on from Scotland.  So, in terms of current politicians, yeah, imo, the quality of the discourse between Holyrood and WM highlights the inadequacies. 

What about the snp MPs, are they inadequate by default? 

Not every doctor, lawyer etc moves away for a better career.  

That's you just saying, that if you want to improve, you have to move away.

Very patronising attitude towards this place.

Have you had to move away? 

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18 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

What about the snp MPs, are they inadequate by default? 

Not every doctor, lawyer etc moves away for a better career.  

That's you just saying, that if you want to improve, you have to move away.

Very patronising attitude towards this place.

Have you had to move away? 

 

In fairness to Enzo, and this is a topic where he's at the very other end of the spectrum from me, many people do move away from Scotland for a better career. Myself being one of them. The jobs on offer in Scotland compared to England and abroad are quite narrow in their skillset and not particularly numerous. I see the solution to that as being an independent country and growing our industry, but Enzo is using it as a reason to maintain the status quo.

 

Not all Scottish Nationalists think Scotland is a wonderful place just waiting to spread it's wings on the international scene as an independent country. In fact, I think it can be a parochial wee place with significant issues to overcome. Scotland at it's best though, is magnificent and I firmly believe independence is the only way to really unlock that and thrive. The SNP aren't the people to do it though I don't think anymore.

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7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

In fairness to Enzo, and this is a topic where he's at the very other end of the spectrum from me, many people do move away from Scotland for a better career. Myself being one of them. The jobs on offer in Scotland compared to England and abroad are quite narrow in their skillset and not particularly numerous. I see the solution to that as being an independent country and growing our industry, but Enzo is using it as a reason to maintain the status quo.

 

Not all Scottish Nationalists think Scotland is a wonderful place just waiting to spread it's wings on the international scene as an independent country. In fact, I think it can be a parochial wee place with significant issues to overcome. Scotland at it's best though, is magnificent and I firmly believe independence is the only way to really unlock that and thrive. The SNP aren't the people to do it though I don't think anymore.

Good post Taffin. I think we could flourish as we'd want what's best for Scotland and it's people. We are stagnating under Westminster rule and GB appears to be going backwards!

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42 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'm just stating facts regarding emigration.

 

I think that the more capable Scottish politicians move on from Scotland.  So, in terms of current politicians, yeah, imo, the quality of the discourse between Holyrood and WM highlights the inadequacies. 

Why the criticism about the use of the army for ambulances uo here but not down south for fuel?  

 

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26 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

In fairness to Enzo, and this is a topic where he's at the very other end of the spectrum from me, many people do move away from Scotland for a better career. Myself being one of them. The jobs on offer in Scotland compared to England and abroad are quite narrow in their skillset and not particularly numerous. I see the solution to that as being an independent country and growing our industry, but Enzo is using it as a reason to maintain the status quo.

 

Not all Scottish Nationalists think Scotland is a wonderful place just waiting to spread it's wings on the international scene as an independent country. In fact, I think it can be a parochial wee place with significant issues to overcome. Scotland at it's best though, is magnificent and I firmly believe independence is the only way to really unlock that and thrive. The SNP aren't the people to do it though I don't think anymore.

Of course, Scotland isn't perfect, but none of this is actually about über alles as the disingenuous would have us believe.

It's not about soaring on wings of gold, it's just about Scotland's government being voted in by Scotland's people with Scotland's interests as it's raison detre

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2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Of course, Scotland isn't perfect, but none of this is actually about über alles as the disingenuous would have us believe.

It's not about soaring on wings of gold, it's just about Scotland's government being voted in by Scotland's people with Scotland's interests as it's raison detre

 

For you and I, it's not. For some though, and you just need to look on here, it's based on some kind of idea that Scotland is a brilliant utopia only held back by WM, it just needs unshackled and everything will be great. They'll be in for a serious shock if it ever happens.

 

As you've posted many times lately, the single question people need to ask themselves is:

 

'Should Scotland be self-governed?'

 

The rest is just dogma and putting the cart before the horse. You decide whether you believe Scotland should be independent and then worry about the currency etc. People will say that's putting idealism ahead of pragmatism...which it is, but it's not for the electorate to resolve imo.

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1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

We have a Scot Gov that has full control over health, education, income tax rates, policing etc etc. It also has many welfare and employment powers and chooses to hand out freebies like sweeties

What a load of shite mate!

Its LESS than 30% of what a proper independent country should have control over. & its not "freebies", its called spending priorities. We decide to spend our taxes on things that ACTUALLY help the people of this country. Not useless things like Aircraft carriers, foreign wars, redecorating Betty's palaces and bombs that could kill millions!!!

 

Honestly, You know damn well fine that Scotland can only "play" with income tax rates but all of the tax raised flies down to the treasury in London. Meanwhile, the UK "borrows" to spend on whatever the hell it wants and saddles Scotland with the bill to pay for it.

 

Are you not fed up with it all? Really? Lets run the whole shebang ourselves and then we only have ourselves to blame!

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5 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

A real, hyperbole stuffed post  Jack D. You've been reading too many red tops by the sound of things😂

 

A failed state? ffs😂. Will that be the same UK that has just signed a major defence initiative with Australia and the US? The Aussies ditched the "failed state" of France in the process.

Or the UK that is expected to hit record economic growth this year and return to pre-pandemic levels by Q1 2022?

Or the UK that provided a world leading vaccination programme, months ahead of Europe?

Or the UK that offered the most generous furlough scheme in the G7, apart from the US?

 

The problem with fuel is nothing to do with a shortage of supplies. The SG and WM have both assured the public that supplies are plentiful. The problem, as always, is PEOPLE.  Stupid people, panic buying,  as confirmed by the Petrol Retailers Association. 

 

Seriously, some of the ingrained hatred of all things WM and Toaary is clouding a lot of posters' judgement. 

I'm just highlighting the fact that any accusation of failure, sleaze or incompetence levelled against the UK govt, can also be thrown in spades back at the Scottish govt.

I really don't know where this Scottish "exceptionalism", the moral high-horse mentality comes from. It's certainly not my experience of a modern day Scotland, riven by division and bitterness along sectarian and political lines. 

👍

4 hours ago, Des Lynam said:


You do realise why we’ve signed that initiative? The same reason America unceremoniously pulled out of Afghanistan. 
 

We are being used so the U S A! can remain top dogs. 
 

I hope we hit record economic levels because at the moment the UK debt to gdp ratio is 106%. 


I do agree blaming everything on Westminster has been the SNP’s shameless mantra and is tiresome. 

👍

2 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Glad someone's giving me credit for a cheap pun.  

It made me laugh. I’ll use it to death now ! 😂

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's not just the SNP though, is it. The quality of politician, the life experience,  the competency levels of most of those in Holyrood,  with a handful of exceptions, is embarrassing. 

The very same people will be vying for power in a separate Scotland and, when you turn that stone over, out will come the Colin Fox's, Tommy Sheridan's, Rosie Kane's, Patrick Harvie's of this world, all bigger fish in a smaller pond. It would be messy imo.

Oh I used to quite like Tommy Sheridan May years ago . However went off him after that court case About him allegedly attending a swingers party . His attitude towards the allegation was more the issue with me . He was so puritanical about it . Who really was bothered about it ? He’s an inserted snob . One of my friend was actually one of the witnesses at the trial . She knew the score . Since then he just comes over as a loud mouth tango tanned hypocrite to me 

11 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

For you and I, it's not. For some though, and you just need to look on here, it's based on some kind of idea that Scotland is a brilliant utopia only held back by WM, it just needs unshackled and everything will be great. They'll be in for a serious shock if it ever happens.

 

As you've posted many times lately, the single question people need to ask themselves is:

 

'Should Scotland be self-governed?'

 

The rest is just dogma and putting the cart before the horse. You decide whether you believe Scotland should be independent and then worry about the currency etc. People will say that's putting idealism ahead of pragmatism...which it is, but it's not for the electorate to resolve imo.

Yes ultimately it’s about a country being able to govern itself really . 

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1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

👍

👍

It made me laugh. I’ll use it to death now ! 😂

Oh I used to quite like Tommy Sheridan May years ago . However went off him after that court case About him allegedly attending a swingers party . His attitude towards the allegation was more the issue with me . He was so puritanical about it . Who really was bothered about it ? He’s an inserted snob . One of my friend was actually one of the witnesses at the trial . She knew the score . Since then he just comes over as a loud mouth tango tanned hypocrite to me 

Yes ultimately it’s about a country being able to govern itself really . 

I agree about Sheridan, but what's an inserted snob..?  

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Just now, Auldbenches said:

I agree about Sheridan, but what's an inserted snob..?  

Inverted lol maybe I got the snob spelling wrong too lol I struggle with typing at times hence the errors 

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Just now, JamesM48 said:

Inverted lol maybe I got the snob spelling wrong too lol I struggle with typing at times hence the errors 

That was an open goal for you there...

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7 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

That was an open goal for you there...

I’m just glad u don’t make spelling errors reading that back 😂

845EF0D8-93D4-4D80-ACF0-E0F7CF246C9A.gif

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portobellojambo1
12 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

In fairness to Enzo, and this is a topic where he's at the very other end of the spectrum from me, many people do move away from Scotland for a better career. Myself being one of them. The jobs on offer in Scotland compared to England and abroad are quite narrow in their skillset and not particularly numerous. I see the solution to that as being an independent country and growing our industry, but Enzo is using it as a reason to maintain the status quo.

 

Not all Scottish Nationalists think Scotland is a wonderful place just waiting to spread it's wings on the international scene as an independent country. In fact, I think it can be a parochial wee place with significant issues to overcome. Scotland at it's best though, is magnificent and I firmly believe independence is the only way to really unlock that and thrive. The SNP aren't the people to do it though I don't think anymore.

 

Can I ask you who you think would be the correct party or parties to do it. Based on existing political parties throughout the UK would some new party be created within Scotland or would those that could govern Scotland be more likely to people from the existing parties, with an ideology/viewpoint similar to the existing parties based in Westminster.

 

I do agree with what Enzo Chiefo and you have said, people grow up in Scotland and for many, not all, their way to bettering themselves work wise is to look elsewhere. You say that we need to grow our industry, and one of the major industries within Scotland is the financial services sector, with many pensions and investment companies being based here. At the moment those companies work under UK sterling, and as an independent country then Scotland would have to adopt a new currency. For the existing financial services industry the vast majority (around 95%) of their business comes from people and businesses based within the UK but outwith Scotland. While companies based in Scotland bank with Scottish banks, those banks use UK sterling. That means that after independence the vast majority of their customers would be put in a position where on settlement their claims would be calculated on whatever currency Scotland used, and then be moved to their bank in another country within the UK. If it was the Euro in place it would go to the central bank of the EU, somewhere near Paris from memory, and there it would be converted into UK sterling and the central bank would take a cut and return the remainder to the receiving UK bank. THe financial services has multi, multi billions of pounds presently being invested in Scottish banks. The chances are very, very high that the financial services industry in Scotland would crumble as businesses based up here moved south of the border, and reinvested their holdings in banks down there which would still be trading in UK sterling. I'm not sure how many people in total work in the sector but in Edinburgh it is a huge number of people. If those people were unwilling or unable to relocate south of the border there would be large job losses. There are also areas of Scotland which have numbers who hold jobs within arms of the British military, be that the Army, Navy or Air Force. At the moment those areas are stronlgy against independence.

 

I also suspect that to create/increase industry within Scotland that will involve number of people coming to Scotland to work. I suspect that could involve people coming from countries where they earn a very low income and that will then reflect on low incomes being provided here. And without Scotland receving funds from Westminster tax will play a part in creating wealth meaning existing Scots would find themsleves facing higher taxes to cover any potential shortfalls in even achieving break even figures.

 

Personally I am retired and receive my pension payments in UK sterling. And I cannot consider receiving a lower monthly amount if it were to need conversion back into UK sterling. So despite having lived in Edinburgh for 65 years, being proud to be a Scot but fanatically proud to be British I would have to consider relocating South of the border.

 

There are a number of things people have to take into consideration and I appreciate some people may be disappointed to be governed from Westminster. In the recent Scottish government election when you break it down the two parties which form the majority government, the SNP and Greens, attracted less votes as a total number of those entitled to vote, than the votes cast in favour of those parties classed as traditionally unionist parties. I think the truth is that politics in general will create divisions, even within Unionist parties. It is impossible to create a situation where everyone in any country will be 100% happy. The existing set up means that if you are unhappy you can vote for another party. Hoever, if having voted for independence you then realise it was a wrong decision and what you had was actually better you are then in a non reversible position.

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2 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How do you know that? People from all walks of life would be attracted to govern our country. The psyche and mindset would change. There would be a more positive outlook and we would generally pull in the same direction. Bigots may think differently. IMO.

We need more Lorna Slater types reading off scripts in the Shortbread. 

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1 minute ago, Mars plastic said:

We need more Lorna Slater types reading off scripts in the Shortbread. 

She’s like a woke comedy spoof character right out of “ the league of gentlemen “ they would rip the pish out of her . She’s a complete clown and as for Pat Harvey ? A jellyfish has a stronger back bone than him . 

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1 hour ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

Can I ask you who you think would be the correct party or parties to do it. Based on existing political parties throughout the UK would some new party be created within Scotland or would those that could govern Scotland be more likely to people from the existing parties, with an ideology/viewpoint similar to the existing parties based in Westminster.

 

 

Being honest, I really don't know. I just no longer believe the SNP have the skills, nor the ambition to actually deliver independence. They seem largely incapable of actually delivering very much at all.

 

In terms of a post-independence world, in time I think we'd see parties formed that are broadly similar to those we elsewhere. There would be right, left and populist/centrist representation. We probably see more players due to voting system and more people would likely align themselves to a party they felt represented them rather than a party who was the lesser of two evils.

 

Quote

I do agree with what Enzo Chiefo and you have said, people grow up in Scotland and for many, not all, their way to bettering themselves work wise is to look elsewhere. You say that we need to grow our industry, and one of the major industries within Scotland is the financial services sector, with many pensions and investment companies being based here. At the moment those companies work under UK sterling, and as an independent country then Scotland would have to adopt a new currency. For the existing financial services industry the vast majority (around 95%) of their business comes from people and businesses based within the UK but outwith Scotland. While companies based in Scotland bank with Scottish banks, those banks use UK sterling. That means that after independence the vast majority of their customers would be put in a position where on settlement their claims would be calculated on whatever currency Scotland used, and then be moved to their bank in another country within the UK. If it was the Euro in place it would go to the central bank of the EU, somewhere near Paris from memory, and there it would be converted into UK sterling and the central bank would take a cut and return the remainder to the receiving UK bank. THe financial services has multi, multi billions of pounds presently being invested in Scottish banks. The chances are very, very high that the financial services industry in Scotland would crumble as businesses based up here moved south of the border, and reinvested their holdings in banks down there which would still be trading in UK sterling. I'm not sure how many people in total work in the sector but in Edinburgh it is a huge number of people. If those people were unwilling or unable to relocate south of the border there would be large job losses. There are also areas of Scotland which have numbers who hold jobs within arms of the British military, be that the Army, Navy or Air Force. At the moment those areas are stronlgy against independence.  

 

 

I don't really know anything about the financial services so take the below as a layman's guesswork. If I did, I'd maybe still live in Scotland.

 

I'm not sure worrying about how we'd interact with the financial services in the future is something worth worrying about currently, not for anyone not involved in politics or the financial services at least. By the time we actually have a vote and moreso if we actually vote for independence and deliver it, the situation may be very different from what we have now. Maintaining 95% of your interests outside Scotland but within the UK seems like it may be a really terrible  model given what's happening in the UK currently. Maybe it will turn out great. Who knows.

 

We're in a period of great change globally and domestically, there is massive uncertainty as it is, tearing up our current model may allow us the agility to align more with where the future takes us rather than being sank with rUK clinging onto the hull of yesterday's world.

 

Equally it may throw us into even more uncertainty and disarray. Nobody can know for sure, which is why I believe we have to decide ideologically, anyone proclaiming to know what tomorrow holds, is being dishonest. Brexit has removed much of the stable backdrop that could be offered up as a redeeming feature of the status quo.

 

As for the military, if they wish to retain that as their profession, I'd imagine they'll relocate to wherever they are told to go. It won't be outside the norm of their existence I wouldn't have thought.

 

Quote

 

I also suspect that to create/increase industry within Scotland that will involve number of people coming to Scotland to work. I suspect that could involve people coming from countries where they earn a very low income and that will then reflect on low incomes being provided here. And without Scotland receving funds from Westminster tax will play a part in creating wealth meaning existing Scots would find themsleves facing higher taxes to cover any potential shortfalls in even achieving break even figures. 

 

I imagine that will depend on whoever the people of Scotland elect as the government in an independent Scotland. I'd suggest Scotland actually would benefit from the creation of more mid-salaried roles rather than low paid ones. Retention of the Scottish workforce may be what we require rather than them leaving to London etc. There's a lot of non-financial service jobs out there that pay decent wages but are limited in their provision on Scotland. How would you encourage companies to headquarter in Scotland? Good question, I don't know...I'm fairly certain smoother access to the EU market would certainly appeal to many though; why set up arms on the continent when you move a few hours north to and English speaking country but avoid all of the red tape and newly incurred costs? 

 

Again, much would depend on what's agreed post-independence with regards our relationship with Europe etc

 

We're getting to a place where it's looking more and more like a toss up between close ties and relationship with the EU or the UK. Nothing suggests the horse to back on that is the UK imo.

 

Quote

 

Personally I am retired and receive my pension payments in UK sterling. And I cannot consider receiving a lower monthly amount if it were to need conversion back into UK sterling. So despite having lived in Edinburgh for 65 years, being proud to be a Scot but fanatically proud to be British I would have to consider relocating South of the border. 

 

That would entirely be your prerogative. As it was mine to leave for a better financial situation.

 

Quote

 

There are a number of things people have to take into consideration and I appreciate some people may be disappointed to be governed from Westminster. In the recent Scottish government election when you break it down the two parties which form the majority government, the SNP and Greens, attracted less votes as a total number of those entitled to vote, than the votes cast in favour of those parties classed as traditionally unionist parties. I think the truth is that politics in general will create divisions, even within Unionist parties. It is impossible to create a situation where everyone in any country will be 100% happy. The existing set up means that if you are unhappy you can vote for another party. Hoever, if having voted for independence you then realise it was a wrong decision and what you had was actually better you are then in a non reversible position.

 

The existing set up for Scottish residents means if they are unhappy they can vote for another party...and hope that the English electorate backed the same one.

 

In an independent Scotland, they'll get whoever secured a plurality of the Scottish vote. 

 

Independence isn't really a right/wrong or better/worse thing. It's giving you the ability to make things better/worse and change whether it was a right/wrong decision. It's always better to be in control of your own destiny than to hope another country makes good decisions on your behalf. The UK and their electorate are no more or less likely to make good decisions, so Scotland should back itself rather than cowering imo.

 

 

Good post though and certainly some challenging questions raised and I appreciate I'm just fobbing them off with a sort of 'worry about that later' but even if someone came and answered them all in great detail and certainty today, by the time it happened those answers may very well not be worth the paper they are written on. For me the best argument against independence was the uncertainty of it, the better the devil you know type of thing. That's gone. Both routes are fraught with uncertainty, and I'd always back myself to sail my own ship in stormy waters than let someone else do it who also has no sailing experience.

Edited by Taffin
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