The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Mars plastic]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

I think that’s far. Imo though an independent Scotland would be a higher taxed country than England. Which is fine if the country really benefits from that. I don’t believe we will. 

Middle earners in Scotland are already taxed more than middle earners in England. If we were ever unfortunate to become independent, every single tax payer would be taxed to the hilt to finance it. Oh, and all the freebie vote inducements would be binned immediately. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

…just when I thought I was out…

 

The GERS deficit figures are distorted because Scotland has to pay a share of UK expenditure and debt interest that it has no control over (and in the cases I mentioned above, no benefit from). 
 

To base your “what ya gonna cut? what ya gonna cut?” mantra on the GERS deficit ignores the fact that, as a highly developed modern country, Scotland will be free to make it’s own spending decisions and raise it’s own finance. Unless you think Scots are complete morons, we will manage our own finances appropriately.

 

STOP GASLIGHTING SCOTLAND!

 

 

Oh ffs. "Gaslighting Scotland ".  Oh my fecking sides🤣. I'm "gaslighting" YOU and others who bang on about "freedom" and demand more referendums and "peoples votes"  blah blah.

 

Scotland is NOT a person. The "Scottish people " crap, used in the singular to display grievance, has been *******ised by the SNP, along with our national flag.

 

For a start, of course Scotland pays debt interest. Scottish deficits have cumulatively accounted for a far greater share of accrued UK debt than calculated per capita.

 

There are reserved areas that "we don't have control over", like defence. Our costs on defence last year amounted to 3.4bn, a minuscule proportion of the 99bn spent in Scotland. 

 

Wtf does "being free to raise our own finances" actually mean? How? When? By how much? Raise from whom? At what rate of interest? Using which currency?

 

Proponents of separation will, along with the SNP , will be hounded until they can come up with credible answers to the big economic questions. So, be prepared, this is only the start.

 

Sturgeon knows that, were she to level with the people and present all the unpalatable economic truths, Independence would be dead in the water. 

So she's stuck in this quandary of promising future referendums, manufacturing grievances against poor wee Scotland and keeping everyone bogged down by process.

Her days in charge are numbered now though as she won't be able to treat people like idiots for ever.

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

14 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

Middle earners in Scotland are already taxed more than middle earners in England. If we were ever unfortunate to become independent, every single tax payer would be taxed to the hilt to finance it. Oh, and all the freebie vote inducements would be binned immediately. 

 

Simple: tax the rich properly. End the off shore tax “haven” scam that only exists to help the elite avoid paying their share. 

[Governor Tarkin]

49 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I don't need reassuring that Scotland can become a successful independent country once again. Of course there's conjecture but there's positives and negatives. 

I think it's important that people living here should be able to vote for the government it wants and vote them out! 

 

The difficulties are created by others when it doesn't have to be that way. Nobody has ever been able to articulate why Westminster needs Scotland if we're a drain on their resources. That fact alone raises questions.

 

It depends on whether you're willing to use pre 1707 Scotland as barometer for a successful independent country I suppose. You'll need to forgive my reservations.

 

You're point in bold is something I'd appreciate more transparency on too, tbh. Is it financial reasons, strategic reasons, geopolitical reasons, etc. 

I suspect it's a fluid combination of them all, but an open discussion should be able to put many of the myths and complaints to bed, which should be to everyone's benefit really.

[Roxy Hearts]

51 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Of course it’s conjecture, the in my opinion comment was the giveaway. Untwist the panties you don’t have to put every fire out. 

🤣👍

 

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It depends on whether you're willing to use pre 1707 Scotland as barometer for a successful independent country I suppose. You'll need to forgive my reservations.

 

You're point in bold is something I'd appreciate more transparency on too, tbh. Is it financial reasons, strategic reasons, geopolitical reasons, etc. 

I suspect it's a fluid combination of them all, but an open discussion should be able to put many of the myths and complaints to bed, which should be to everyone's benefit really.

Good post GT. 👍

[Governor Tarkin]

8 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Simple: tax the rich properly. End the off shore tax “haven” scam that only exists to help the elite avoid paying their share. 

 

By 'the rich', just how 'rich' do you need to be?

 

There's a deep running undercurrent of loathing in this country for folk who have the audacity to do well for themselves.

[Gizmo]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

In related news

 

Keir Starmer announces that Gordon Brown will lead a commission to settle the issue of the Union.

 

He should make a vow or something.

 

Well, that's a daring, novel approach eh? 
 

1 hour ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

…just when I thought I was out…

 

The GERS deficit figures are distorted because Scotland has to pay a share of UK expenditure and debt interest that it has no control over (and in the cases I mentioned above, no benefit from). 
 

To base your “what ya gonna cut? what ya gonna cut?” mantra on the GERS deficit ignores the fact that, as a highly developed modern country, Scotland will be free to make it’s own spending decisions and raise it’s own finance. Unless you think Scots are complete morons, we will manage our own finances appropriately.

 

STOP GASLIGHTING SCOTLAND!

 

 

Oh, he absolutely does with himself as the sole exception. A monstrously misplaced ego.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

11 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

For a start, of course Scotland pays debt interest. Scottish deficits have cumulatively accounted for a far greater share of accrued UK debt than calculated per capita. Again, you say stuff and don’t evidence it. The UK borrows huge amounts from the financial markets in. The form of Bonds. It then gets the BofE to print money to pay off some of those bonds - it’s called “Quantitive Easing” (and it pushes inflation up). UK is on track to increase it’s “bond buying” this year to a staggering £895bn. Tell me, how exactly do Scots per capital contribute to that debt pile?

 

Wtf does "being free to raise our own finances" actually mean? Govt borrowing How? The same as every country in the world, the banks When? When we need it By how much? By the amount we estimate is needed, just like every other country Raise from whom?  Repeat: the banks At what rate of interest? At the rate negotiated Using which currency? Depends on whether we opt for the Euro, £ or own currency.

 

Proponents of separation (you do prefer -ve/emotive language to a balanced debate) will, along with the SNP , will be hounded (see what I mean? You also love to “hound”)  until they can come up with credible answers to the big economic questions. You don’t recognize or acknowledge any credible answers, preferring to deflect and repeat mantras  So, be prepared, this is only the start. I wish it was the start of being away from greedy Tory rule

 

Sturgeon knows that, were she to level with the people and present all the unpalatable economic truths In case you missed (or ignored it) the SNP published a 200 page document ahead of the last referendum that spelled out every detail. Maybe it would be easier to publish a comic strip version next time, Independence would be dead in the water. 

So she's stuck in this quandary of promising future referendums, manufacturing grievances against poor wee Scotland and keeping everyone bogged down by process.

Her days in charge are numbered now though as she won't be able to treat people like idiots for ever. You really need to stop reading the Daily Mail, put your megaphone down and remember to listen twice as much as shouting

 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

29 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

By 'the rich', just how 'rich' do you need to be?

 

There's a deep running undercurrent of loathing in this country for folk who have the audacity to do well for themselves.

 

I just mean billionaires and off-shore tax dodgers. There’s a much bigger ‘over current’ of acceptance of tax avoidance for the top 10% earners. I have absolutely no problem however with millionaires and applaud the audacity/confidence that talented people have to do well financially or otherwise. I’m also well chuffed that James Anderson is on our Board…but he should pay more tax.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Sub4TiddlerMurray
%

[Auldbenches]

1 hour ago, Mars plastic said:

Middle earners in Scotland are already taxed more than middle earners in England. If we were ever unfortunate to become independent, every single tax payer would be taxed to the hilt to finance it. Oh, and all the freebie vote inducements would be binned immediately. 

Which vote inducements would be instantly binned?  

[Japan Jambo]

43 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Simple: tax the rich properly. End the off shore tax “haven” scam that only exists to help the elite avoid paying their share. 

 

Easy to talk about and I dare say hugely popular (my friend will pay) but I think you'll find the reason they haven't done this is that it's far more difficult to implement than you imagine.

[Auldbenches]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

In related news

 

Keir Starmer announces that Gordon Brown will lead a commission to settle the issue of the Union.

 

He should make a vow or something.

 

Gordon brown who has a think tank aimed at those currently sitting on the fence looking at this issue said that those wanting independence are nationalists and those in support of the union are patriots.  

Anyone explain this difference?  

 

[Japan Jambo]

44 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

By 'the rich', just how 'rich' do you need to be?

 

There's a deep running undercurrent of loathing in this country for folk who have the audacity to do well for themselves.

 

The reality of the situation is that there are only 15,000 top rate tax payers in Scotland and they are already kicking in a hugely disproportionate share of the total  Income Tax take, it's not as if it's a bottomless well to draw from.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/scottish-income-tax-outturn-statistics-2019-to-2020/scottish-income-tax-outturn-statistics-2019-to-2020

 

[The Mighty Thor]

15 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Gordon brown who has a think tank aimed at those currently sitting on the fence looking at this issue said that those wanting independence are nationalists and those in support of the union are patriots.  

Anyone explain this difference?  

 

Gordon Brown is deemed to be an authority on such matters and was a very good conduit for Dave Cameron and the others to peddle the utter horseshit that was the Vow that of course achieved the square root of hee haw.

 

He was an irrelevance then and he's an irrelevance now. 

[Auldbenches]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Gordon Brown is deemed to be an authority on such matters and was a very good conduit for Dave Cameron and the others to peddle the utter horseshit that was the Vow that of course achieved the square root of hee haw.

 

He was an irrelevance then and he's an irrelevance now. 

They shit themselves and it was all down to that Canadian poll that had it at 50/50.  

The good thing is that this type of garbage won't work the next time.

David Beckham saying he loves us and needs us etc.  Piss off.  

If the the rest of the people in the UK are so concerned about us, why didn't they start campaigning against the poll tax until it was being introduced there?  

It's just the politicians that couldn't really care, it's also the electorate. 

Not talking about the poll tax itself, just that they didn't come out and support us when we were trying to get rid of it. 

 

[cheetah]

What part of Spain are you in @Enzo Chiefo

 

Is it pissing down?

 

If no get out and get some sunshine and enjoy your holiday. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

45 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

You'll be glad to know that I've secured a mortgage at 20 times my salary. I told the Bank that I "was free to raise my own finances", "i would be accountable for the decisions I make" and the old classic "why couldn't I afford it, other people can".

Thankfully, they didn't ask me what spending cuts I would make, because I haven't got a feckin clue. 

Didn't bother asking what currency the mortgage would be denominated in , as I didn't think it important.

 

Just to clarify, the 12-15bn spending cuts and/or tax rises needed to balance the books, is just to get to an equilibrium with the UK deficit. Any borrowing would be required at that point.

 

I'm glad you think QE is a possibility as last I heard, Swinney acknowledged it wasn't possible while being pegged to another country's currency and without a central bank.

 

Again, and for the last time, any answers to the big questions on emigration of high rate tax payers, relocation of businesses to London, the border issue, currency etc etc.??

 

You've got a sense of humour mentioning the S**te Paper from 2014. Doesn't matter whether there were 2 or 200 pages, it was a pile of tosh, a wish list based on fantasy economics.

£200million to set up a new country? Within 18mths? Oil at $130 a barrel🤣🤣🤣

They can't even taken on a few new welfare powers from the Smith Commission about 5 years on.🤣🤣

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Simple: tax the rich properly. End the off shore tax “haven” scam that only exists to help the elite avoid paying their share. 

Tax the rich, is that the headline policy an independent Scotland will be built on ? That will definitely encourage growth, investment and skills into the country. 

 

49 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

I just mean billionaires and off-shore tax dodgers. There’s a much bigger ‘over current’ of acceptance of tax avoidance for the top 10% earners. I have absolutely no problem however with millionaires and applaud the audacity/confidence that talented people have to do well financially or otherwise. I’m also well chuffed that James Anderson is on our Board…but he should pay more tax.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Billion and millionaires have the money and knowledge to avoid what you’re trying to do so you won’t see them or their money in an independent Scotland Sub. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, cheetah said:

What part of Spain are you in @Enzo Chiefo

 

Is it pissing down?

 

If no get out and get some sunshine and enjoy your holiday. 

Good advise, Cheetah. In the Costa Blanca. But debating with Tiddler Murrell was slightly less painful than navigating the Passenger Locator Form I was doing at the same time.

👍

[cheetah]

5 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Good advise, Cheetah. In the Costa Blanca. But debating with Tiddler Murrell was slightly less painful than navigating the Passenger Locator Form I was doing at the same time.

👍

Good man, Enjoy 👍

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

33 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

The reality of the situation is that there are only 15,000 top rate tax payers in Scotland and they are already kicking in a hugely disproportionate share of the total  Income Tax take, it's not as if it's a bottomless well to draw from.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/scottish-income-tax-outturn-statistics-2019-to-2020/scottish-income-tax-outturn-statistics-2019-to-2020

 

 

Not sure what you mean by 'hugely diproportionate'. Are you saying the well off shouldn't pay more tax than someone on low income?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

19 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You'll be glad to know that I've secured a mortgage at 20 times my salary. I told the Bank that I "was free to raise my own finances", "i would be accountable for the decisions I make" and the old classic "why couldn't I afford it, other people can".

Thankfully, they didn't ask me what spending cuts I would make, because I haven't got a feckin clue. 

Didn't bother asking what currency the mortgage would be denominated in , as I didn't think it important.

 

Just to clarify, the 12-15bn spending cuts and/or tax rises needed to balance the books, is just to get to an equilibrium with the UK deficit. Any borrowing would be required at that point.

 

I'm glad you think QE is a possibility as last I heard, Swinney acknowledged it wasn't possible while being pegged to another country's currency and without a central bank.

 

Again, and for the last time, any answers to the big questions on emigration of high rate tax payers, relocation of businesses to London, the border issue, currency etc etc.??

 

You've got a sense of humour mentioning the S**te Paper from 2014. Doesn't matter whether there were 2 or 200 pages, it was a pile of tosh, a wish list based on fantasy economics.

£200million to set up a new country? Within 18mths? Oil at $130 a barrel🤣🤣🤣

They can't even taken on a few new welfare powers from the Smith Commission about 5 years on.🤣🤣

You're running with  misconception of what GERS effectively is. 

The analogy you used was running up a credit card bill and expecting someone else to pay for it when in reality the analogy for GERS is someone taking out a credit card in your name, running up billions of pounds on stuff you know nothing about then telling you that you're now in debt to the tune of billions. 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

13 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You'll be glad to know that I've secured a mortgage at 20 times my salary. I told the Bank that I "was free to raise my own finances", "i would be accountable for the decisions I make" and the old classic "why couldn't I afford it, other people can".

Thankfully, they didn't ask me what spending cuts I would make, because I haven't got a feckin clue. 

Didn't bother asking what currency the mortgage would be denominated in , as I didn't think it important.

 

Just to clarify, the 12-15bn spending cuts and/or tax rises needed to balance the books, is just to get to an equilibrium with the UK deficit. Any borrowing would be required at that point.

 

I'm glad you think QE is a possibility as last I heard, Swinney acknowledged it wasn't possible while being pegged to another country's currency and without a central bank.

 

Again, and for the last time, any answers to the big questions on emigration of high rate tax payers, relocation of businesses to London, the border issue, currency etc etc.??

 

You've got a sense of humour mentioning the S**te Paper from 2014. Doesn't matter whether there were 2 or 200 pages, it was a pile of tosh, a wish list based on fantasy economics.

£200million to set up a new country? Within 18mths? Oil at $130 a barrel🤣🤣🤣

They can't even taken on a few new welfare powers from the Smith Commission about 5 years on.🤣🤣

 

See. There you go again. Making stuff up to suit yourself. I didn't at any point say QE was possible. It is true that you need your own currency, but as I understand it, only large economies can do it because smaller nations would normally be pegged to Euro, £ or $. But we would, nonetheless be able to borrow (again, just like every other country in the world). 

 

Did you actually read the "s**te paper from 2014"? 

 

Did you also read the s**te paper that the Tory Government published prior to Brexit? .......I'll answer that one: no, because they didn't publish any detail prior to dragging us out of the EU. All we had was emotional/tribal slogans (much like your approach). And now look at the mess we're in. And, to paraphrase you, it's only the start of the Brexit s**t show.

 

 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

9 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You're running with  misconception of what GERS effectively is. 

The analogy you used was running up a credit card bill and expecting someone else to pay for it when in reality the analogy for GERS is someone taking out a credit card in your name, running up billions of pounds on stuff you know nothing about then telling you that you're now in debt to the tune of billions. 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

32 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Good advise, Cheetah. In the Costa Blanca. But debating with Tiddler Murrell was slightly less painful than navigating the Passenger Locator Form I was doing at the same time.

👍

 

You're such a funny guy 🤡

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

2 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Easy to talk about and I dare say hugely popular (my friend will pay) but I think you'll find the reason they haven't done this is that it's far more difficult to implement than you imagine.

 

I wouldn't characterise it as "my friend will pay" so much as "my exceptionally wealthy friend will pay a share s/he can well afford". To make that happen means having the power to set tax rules and rates. So long as the Tories hold the whip hand, that's not going to change.

 

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

I wouldn't characterise it as "my friend will pay" so much as "my exceptionally wealthy friend will pay a share s/he can well afford". To make that happen means having the power to set tax rules and rates. So long as the Tories hold the whip hand, that's not going to change.

 

 

That is a pretty disingenuous comment, feel free to argue for more powers and/or blame Westminster (it's a popular tune) but the reality is there is plenty scope to raise taxes, including income taxes. Off the top of my head I think the reserved taxes VAT, CT, NI make up about half the take so there is scope to push a more radical tax and spend agenda if that is what folks want/vote for.

 

https://www.gov.scot/policies/taxes/

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Tiddler Murrell 

 

[Des Lynam]

2 hours ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

I just mean billionaires and off-shore tax dodgers. There’s a much bigger ‘over current’ of acceptance of tax avoidance for the top 10% earners. I have absolutely no problem however with millionaires and applaud the audacity/confidence that talented people have to do well financially or otherwise. I’m also well chuffed that James Anderson is on our Board…but he should pay more tax.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The top 1% of earners in the UK pay more than a third of the income tax paid to the Government. Tax the rich is an appallingly lazy and dangerous economic approach. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Des Lynam

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

That is a pretty disingenuous comment, feel free to argue for more powers and/or blame Westminster (it's a popular tune) but the reality is there is plenty scope to raise taxes, including income taxes. Off the top of my head I think the reserved taxes VAT, CT, NI make up about half the take so there is scope to push a more radical tax and spend agenda if that is what folks want/vote for.

 

https://www.gov.scot/policies/taxes/

 

Disingenuous is a bit strong. I think it is fair to say that there are more vested/conflicted interests in off-shore tax avoidance within the Tory Cabinet (and the Board of HMRC for that matter) than any other party. And, the Scottish Govt is restricted to raising additional taxes over and above the UK tax rate. Otherwise, I take your point.

 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

9 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 

 

to be fair, I did smile at that too

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Not sure what you mean by 'hugely diproportionate'. Are you saying the well off shouldn't pay more tax than someone on low income?

 

 

No, the rich will obviously pay more both in absolute terms and at the margin, personally up to a point I'm fine with that. One does need to recognise who is paying what though; going too hard while at the same time vilifying certain sections of society will not end well imo.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

4 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

The top 1% of earners in the UK pay more than a third of the income tax paid to the Government. Tax the rich is an appallingly lazy and dangerous economic approach. 

 

They also own a staggering 21% of the total UK wealth after tax. 

 

I don't get your "appallingly lazy" comment. It's a simple concept that's all. And, what is dangerous about that?

 

[Governor Tarkin]

6 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

 

to be fair, I did smile at that too

 

 

 

👍

 

There's been a few crackers in either direction over the course of the thread.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

5 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

No, the rich will obviously pay more both in absolute terms and at the margin, personally up to a point I'm fine with that. One does need to recognise who is paying what though; going too hard while at the same time vilifying certain sections of society will not end well imo.

 

I agree.

 

Off shore tax avoidance is however unacceptable IMO. As is allowing Amazon, Google, Apple, etc. to trade in the UK whilst declaring taxes elsewhere. It's not their fault. It's the fault of the tax rules that are in place to reduce the burden on the super wealthy.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

14 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

The top 1% of earners in the UK pay more than a third of the income tax paid to the Government. Tax the rich is an appallingly lazy and dangerous economic approach. 

 

...also, a huge proportion of their income is moved into off-shore accounts (as I've been banging on about) and isn't taxed in the UK

[Des Lynam]

10 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

They also own a staggering 21% of the total UK wealth after tax. 

 

I don't get your "appallingly lazy" comment. It's a simple concept that's all. And, what is dangerous about that?

 

The use of the word appallingly was over the top. I just don’t want to pay more tax. 😂

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

The use of the word appallingly was over the top. I just don’t want to pay more tax. 😂

 

Me too 😂 

[Japan Jambo]

5 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Me too 😂 

 

Lol folks, this is the heart of the issue - everyone wants everyone else to pay the tax!!

[Japan Jambo]

19 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

I agree.

 

Off shore tax avoidance is however unacceptable IMO. As is allowing Amazon, Google, Apple, etc. to trade in the UK whilst declaring taxes elsewhere. It's not their fault. It's the fault of the tax rules that are in place to reduce the burden on the super wealthy.

 

I think while we may actually be quite close on a lot of this, though the extremes of what is acceptable and the practicalities of how one sets about collecting is undoubtedly where we will differ.  I will emphasize though your point on rules and add a couple of observations; a) too many lobbyists involved in shaping these in the first place, b) the more complicated the rules are, the more open they will be open to exploitation and contradiction , c) those with deep pockets will employ skilled individuals to find ways around them and d) people with large pots of money have choice with regard to where they choose/need to work for 'tax' purposes and in fairness to them it's often very complicated. 

[doctor jambo]

39 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

I think while we may actually be quite close on a lot of this, though the extremes of what is acceptable and the practicalities of how one sets about collecting is undoubtedly where we will differ.  I will emphasize though your point on rules and add a couple of observations; a) too many lobbyists involved in shaping these in the first place, b) the more complicated the rules are, the more open they will be open to exploitation and contradiction , c) those with deep pockets will employ skilled individuals to find ways around them and d) people with large pots of money have choice with regard to where they choose/need to work for 'tax' purposes and in fairness to them it's often very complicated. 

The solution is simple.

seize all off shore money.. then you have 12 months to prove you have paid all due tax on it.

If you cannot it gets handed to the nation/ nations of which you are a citizen

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

The solution is simple.

seize all off shore money.. then you have 12 months to prove you have paid all due tax on it.

If you cannot it gets handed to the nation/ nations of which you are a citizen

😂😂😂

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

😂😂😂

I know , you can but dream

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

59 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

I think while we may actually be quite close on a lot of this, though the extremes of what is acceptable and the practicalities of how one sets about collecting is undoubtedly where we will differ.  I will emphasize though your point on rules and add a couple of observations; a) too many lobbyists involved in shaping these in the first place, b) the more complicated the rules are, the more open they will be open to exploitation and contradiction , c) those with deep pockets will employ skilled individuals to find ways around them and d) people with large pots of money have choice with regard to where they choose/need to work for 'tax' purposes and in fairness to them it's often very complicated. 

 

100%

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Lol folks, this is the heart of the issue - everyone wants everyone else to pay the tax!!

 

Disagree 😁

 

It's not about wanting someone else to 'pay for me', it's that if every person and company paid their fair share, those of us that are not in the top 10% would not have to pay as much as we do. There's a difference.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

5 hours ago, Dazo said:

Tax the rich, is that the headline policy an independent Scotland will be built on ? That will definitely encourage growth, investment and skills into the country. 

 

 

Billion and millionaires have the money and knowledge to avoid what you’re trying to do so you won’t see them or their money in an independent Scotland Sub. 

 

Nope, It's two different things that came up: independence and getting the super-rich (>£600m income) and mega companies like Amazon, Starbucks, FB,... to cough up their full share. The first is specific to Scotland, the second a general principle in the UK. 

 

I would vote for a higher tax economy if it leads to better schools, health services, prisons, etc.. But, it's true, some rich folks would bugger off and some would stay.

 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

17 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Let’s be honest someone else is already paying for you, 

 

The top 1% in this country are responsible for over 30% of the income tax take alone and, I think,  the top 10% are responsible for over 70%. The rich contribute much more via other direct tax such as capital gains etc and indirect taxes via VAT increased spending etc, 

 

Pretty much every company pays the taxes they are meant to. HMRC spend huge sums of money doing this and despite being far from perfect they are pretty good. Companies use legitimate means to reduce their liabilities that’s common sense. It’s also true of high worth people. 
 

The issue is you want them to pay more so you can pay less. Fair enough, you probably believe they can afford pay more. Hate the rich but they are supporting this country financially by in large, as much as that will annoy some. 
 

Also increased taxes don’t necessarily lead to better services. As your about to find out in coming years!!! That’s more down to effectiveness of investment and where the money goes. Increased taxes in the short to medium are unlikely to result in any improved services as we have a bunch of COVID shit to sort out and pay off. 
 

The effective’s of services is much more down to other factors than just the tax take tbh. 
 

 

Thanks for your (well written) insight LBJ. But it is misplaced. There is no desire for me to pay less tax at anyone else’s expense. ‘Hate the rich’ are your words, not mine. With respect, no one is paying for me and you know nothing about my wealth. Financially, I’m good thanks.

 

I know nothing about you too, but I’ll venture that you haven’t witnessed the poverty I have. Respect if you have.

 

The gap between rich and poor, as you know I’m sure, has grown significantly since the 2008 crash. To repair the damage to the UK economy, ‘austerity’ policies ensured the less well off paid for the failures of the financiers. Since then, the rich have indeed grown richer. To claim they are ‘supporting this country’ when frontline workers have had pay freezes since then, frankly, is …can’t find a suitable word to express how wrong that is.

 

The point I have been making is not that wealth is bad, or the wealthy should pay for everything, but that they should pay tax on all their earnings in the way every other working person does. Stuffing suitcases of cash and sending them to off shore ‘havens’ to avoid paying tax is wrong.

 

Not saying an independent Scotland would end that scam here either. (To get back to the topic) the SNP offer an opportunity to create a fairer (if imperfect) society that is impossible under the spell of the privileged pantomime world of Westminster.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dazo]

12 hours ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Nope, It's two different things that came up: independence and getting the super-rich (>£600m income) and mega companies like Amazon, Starbucks, FB,... to cough up their full share. The first is specific to Scotland, the second a general principle in the UK. 

 

I would vote for a higher tax economy if it leads to better schools, health services, prisons, etc.. But, it's true, some rich folks would bugger off and some would stay.

 

 

We are obviously on different sides of the fence regarding higher tax and that’s fine we will never agree. I have to take issue with your belief that higher tax will lead to a better life and services for us all. This will only happen if the right people are spending the money. Imo we don’t have that. We already pay more tax, does anyone really see any benefit to that ? Giving the same people more money to waste isn’t the best idea. It’s like giving Mike Carroll another £10m. 😂

[Konrad von Carstein]

Nice to see a couple of interesting,  well written posts that move away from the barking trolling nonsense we all to often indulge in...

[jack D and coke]

16 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

That is a pretty disingenuous comment, feel free to argue for more powers and/or blame Westminster (it's a popular tune) but the reality is there is plenty scope to raise taxes, including income taxes. Off the top of my head I think the reserved taxes VAT, CT, NI make up about half the take so there is scope to push a more radical tax and spend agenda if that is what folks want/vote for.

 

https://www.gov.scot/policies/taxes/

Bit of a misnomer the tax raising powers. 
It’s a raise taxes but a how dare you raise taxes. 
There’s people whingeing about £8 a week in here when they’ve probably got access to better services and have cheaper council tax, no water meter etc. They froze council tax for years too while England’s went up almost each year and the they were getting stick for that too. 
Put taxes up ffs how dare you put taxes up I pay 8 quid a week more than someone in England ffs. 
It’s just railing against something that literally breaks them on a daily basis.