Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Lone Striker]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Indeed, I remember that, Kay Burley had Dr. Margaret Harris from the WHO on her show and Burley was asking how is the UK so bad, how have we got this so wrong etc etc etc. 

 

The reply from Dr. Harris was definitely not the reply Burley was wanting, because Dr. Harris said that you can't just look at numbers you also have to take into account age, health, lifestyle, all manner of different things, Burley was having none of that, so pushed again with the UK is crap agenda, to which Dr. Harris delivered the coup de gras to Burley, when Dr. Harris said that you in the UK also have the NHS.

This clearly took Burley by surprise because Burley asked what the NHS had to do with it, Dr. Harris replied that the NHS has become very good at keeping people alive, people with serious multiple and complex medical conditions, which in many other European countries wouldn't still be alive, Dr. Harris added, Kay you have to understand that in the UK there are many thousands of very sick people with complex medical conditions and if it weren't for the brilliance of the NHS they wouldn't be alive now, Covid-19 targets the old and sick, so I am not surprised that the UK has some of the highest death numbers in Europe, in fact the UK is doing quite well.

 

Burley ended the interview there, it clearly wasn't going the way Burley had wanted it to go, especially when Dr. Harris thought the UK was doing ok. 

 

Strangely the interview didn't get repeated numerious times throughout the day, like most others do, mmmm I wonder why that was.

Hmmmm .... that's an interesting explanation. Quite novel.    So, to paraphrase ........  our death rate is actually artificially high because it includes lots of folk who would already be sick or dead if it weren't for the NHS keeping them  supplied with medicines & treatments.   Taking that  a step further then, once all these folk have succumbed to Covid then our rate of deaths will fall - which will make things look better.

 

Christ - that one's just ready-made (oven ready ?) for  one of Boris's appearances at the 5.30 briefing !!   

[Nucky Thompson]

The new variant is responsible for 62% of cases and 34% of hospitalisations in London

So does that mean it's less harmful?

The old variant must be responsible for the 0ther 38% of cases and 66% of hospitalisations.

Or am I not getting something?

also, the estimated transmissibility of this latest mutated version is based on government modelling and has not been confirmed in lab experiments 

How UK was able to detect new coronavirus variant so quickly | The Independent

 

[Lone Striker]

14 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Just heard another mates Dad has died of Covid, he was in hospital for a pancreas problem and got infected.

The two mates of mine who have lost thier Dads to it now.

God - that's awful, DR.      

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Horrible news. Must be doubly difficult to take catching it in hospital ☹️

Aye, poor bugger thought he was only in for a wee op', thought he was going to get better.

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Hmmmm .... that's an interesting explanation. Quite novel.    So, to paraphrase ........  our death rate is actually artificially high because it includes lots of folk who would already be sick or dead if it weren't for the NHS keeping them  supplied with medicines & treatments.   Taking that  a step further then, once all these folk have succumbed to Covid then our rate of deaths will fall - which will make things look better.

 

Christ - that one's just ready-made (oven ready ?) for  one of Boris's appearances at the 5.30 briefing !!   

Near the start of this, there was some bloke on the telly (sorry can’t be more specific but he looked a clever *****) saying that death rates in the years immediately following the pandemic were extremely likely to be massively lower than the years leading up to it. I have my doubts given all the missed hospital appointments and treatments, coming recession increasing poverty etc. 

[Victorian]

51 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

That's spot on NT. The power is absolutely going go her head. Talking about tightening restrictions ,that haven't actually come in to effect yet , in reaction to a strain that MAY spread quicker, MAY be weaker and MAY just be a storm in a teacup, is insane.  It's time she concentrated on the places where it IS spreading and start being honest with people. 

 

This isn't to defend Sturgeon as such (because that will be the accusation) but she recently made comment a couple of times that her strategising would now be led by a determination to remain as ahead of the curve as possible.  That she's learned that not reacting quite quickly enough has always tended to be too late.  I think this latest set of announcements falls into that.  I think it's mainly a set of stuff she's putting in place in order to be pre-emptive.  

 

All arguments aside,  we've seen that a lot during all these months.  Leaders are being led by information,  data,  advice and often reacting just a bit too late.  Often involving complete U-turns on recent measures,  etc.  It looks to me that Sturgeon is going to at least try to do her reacting as quickly as possible.

 

This power trip shtick that's trotted out on a daily basis is genuinely difficult to witness.  I know people are frustrated and even angry but an over-arching belief that leaders are power mad or supposedly in their element can only result in to people closing their minds to each individual statement,  plea,  announcement.  How does one form an informed view from a default position that the leader is just power crazed?

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Victorian

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

The new variant is responsible for 62% of cases and 34% of hospitalisations in London

So does that mean it's less harmful?

The old variant must be responsible for the 0ther 38% of cases and 66% of hospitalisations.

Or am I not getting something?

also, the estimated transmissibility of this latest mutated version is based on government modelling and has not been confirmed in lab experiments 

How UK was able to detect new coronavirus variant so quickly | The Independent

 

Am I right in thinking that government modelling has been miles out at times during the pandemic. 

[Auldbenches]

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

Heard an interesting conspiracy theory (second hand) today. Apparently they were always going to relax restrictions inthe summer because that’s when riots happen. People never riot when the weather is shit. I immediately dismissed it as shite but when you think about it people never riot in the winter. 

You might be right, people never seem to riot in Scotland.  When was the last time we had a riot up here?  

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

lol 

Sadly this is very true. What a sad state of affairs. 

Most people will just get on with whatever life they have to endure. 

I find transcendental mediation to be a great benefit. 

Fretting and worrying just makes things worse. Think about your blood pressure. 

[Victorian]

9 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

The new variant is responsible for 62% of cases and 34% of hospitalisations in London

So does that mean it's less harmful?

The old variant must be responsible for the 0ther 38% of cases and 66% of hospitalisations.

Or am I not getting something?

also, the estimated transmissibility of this latest mutated version is based on government modelling and has not been confirmed in lab experiments 

How UK was able to detect new coronavirus variant so quickly | The Independent

 

 

Possibly still to catch up on the dreaded lag time.  Beyond that,  I hope you're right.  There does seem a reasonable hope that mutations may eventually prove out to be less severe.  This one?  Who knows? Hope so.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, luckydug said:

Most people will just get on with whatever life they have to endure. 

I find transcendental mediation to be a great benefit. 

Fretting and worrying just makes things worse. Think about your blood pressure. 

Thats ok I may come over as a hysterical loony on this...but Im actually a very calm and relatively sane person who practices meditation etc.  My blood pressure is re-markedly low but then so was Hannibal Lectors when he devoured his victims.   

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

You might be right, people never seem to riot in Scotland.  When was the last time we had a riot up here?  

Last time Celtic got beat I’d think. More of a tantrum than a riot though 😀

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Most people will just get on with whatever life they have to endure. 

I find transcendental mediation to be a great benefit. 

Fretting and worrying just makes things worse. Think about your blood pressure. 

Ps thanks for your concern . I also find listening to Audio books quite relaxing . Only recently got into this 

[luckydug]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

This isn't to defend Sturgeon as such (because that will be the accusation) but she recently made comment a couple of times that her strategising would now be led by a determination to remain as ahead of the curve as possible.  That she's learned that not reacting quite quickly enough has always tended to be too late.  I think this latest set of announcements falls into that.  I think it's mainly a set of stuff she's putting in place in order to be pre-emptive.  

 

All arguments aside,  we've seen ot a lot during all these months.  Leaders are being led by information,  data,  advice and often reacting just a bit too late.  Often involving complete U-turns on recent measures,  etc.  It looks to me that Sturgeon is going to at least try to do her reacting as quickly as possible.

 

This power trip shtick that's trotted out on a daily basis is genuinely difficult to witness.  I know people are frustrated and even angry but an over-arching belief that leaders are power mad or supposedly in their element can only result in to people closing their minds to each individual statement,  plea,  announcement.  How does one form an informed view from a default position that the leader is just power crazed?

 

 

Good to hear from you Vic. 

I thought you had jacked this place in due to the abuse you took for having the nerve to voice your opinion. 

This place is in denial and most of the reasoned posters seem to have given up. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

19 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Hmmmm .... that's an interesting explanation. Quite novel.    So, to paraphrase ........  our death rate is actually artificially high because it includes lots of folk who would already be sick or dead if it weren't for the NHS keeping them  supplied with medicines & treatments.   Taking that  a step further then, once all these folk have succumbed to Covid then our rate of deaths will fall - which will make things look better.

 

Christ - that one's just ready-made (oven ready ?) for  one of Boris's appearances at the 5.30 briefing !!   

 

I'm only repeating what Dr. Margaret Harris said, it's up to you whether you believe it or not.

There will be archive footage of the interview, somewhere on the internet, it was on Burley at Breakfast on Sky News and it would have been broadcast around about late April or May time.

[Victorian]

Just now, luckydug said:

Good to hear from you Vic. 

I thought you had jacked this place in due to the abuse you took for having the nerve to voice your opinion. 

This place is in denial and most of the reasoned posters seem to have given up. 

 

How you doing LD?   No I'm putting it down to people being utterly,  utterly sick of this torture.  Plus our cup final kick in the goolies.  There's no point taking things personally when push comes to shove.

 

Sometimes you see stuff that really rams a bit of perspective up the farter.  I saw on the news a piece about the horrible level of abject poverty being suffered by people.  Queuing in big numbers in the freezing cold at food banks.  No money to propely heat their homes.  Kids going a full day between shockingly poor meals.

[Lone Striker]

59 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It's when she starts to threaten you with punishment for not listening we'll need to be concerned. That day may not be too far off either. 

Aye..... it's weird how she's coming across.  It's like she's trying everything to avoid actually saying the honest truth -"Ah'm tryin' tae stop youz numpties fae catchin' Covid and passin' it oan tae yer maw & granny, coz youz cannae be trusted ya bampots" 

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Aye..... it's weird how she's coming across.  It's like she's trying everything to avoid actually saying the honest truth -"Ah'm tryin' tae stop youz numpties fae catchin' Covid and passin' it oan tae yer maw & granny, coz youz cannae be trusted ya bampots" 

 

That wouldn't be the honest truth though. In the grand scheme of things the vast majority have been adhering to the advice. 

[Lone Striker]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I'm only repeating what Dr. Margaret Harris said, it's up to you whether you believe it or not.

There will be archive footage of the interview, somewhere on the internet, it was on Burley at Breakfast on Sky News and it would have been broadcast around about late April or May time.

👍 I don't doubt your description of what she said J-J.    (Not getting at you at all )     Just a strange piece of "bad news" dressed as "good news" .... and then dressed as "bad news" again.    So many aspects of  this crisis seem bonkers.   

 

   

[Lone Striker]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

That wouldn't be the honest truth though. In the grand scheme of things the vast majority have been adhering to the advice. 

Oh indeed.  But the bampot minority is  all it takes to keep this virus going and claiming the health and lives of others.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

4 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

I don’t know.
 

Becoming a law will marginally increase compliance.
 

Whilst giving the police the ability to lift anyone outside they unless they have a pint of milk with them.

 

not sure it will increase compliance

 

there may be a balancing group of people sick of the way this is being handled who will exploit the many loopholes to be non-compliant while not increasing risk to themselves or others

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Lone Striker said:

Oh indeed.  But the bampot minority is  all it takes to keep this virus going and claiming the health and lives of others.

 

Viruses spread and mutate and usually weaken as they do. Lockdowns prevent this happening and may be prolonging this whole crappy episode. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

3 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

When they're talking about hospital levels being back to what they were in April they're talking about folk in hospital with Covid. No context required.

 

 

 

 

are these numbers people taking-up overnight beds or include people being examined/treated and discharged on the same day?

[Victorian]

22 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

I've gradually come to the realisation that NS isn't a wicked, evil cold-hearted cow. She's just incompetent, and waaaay  above her grade in trying to deal with this. 

 

While I'm not keen on being told to stay at home - and most likely won't TBPH - at least she's changed tack having realised that previous measures were hopeless. Given her previous failings, I just don't have much hope that her new approach is going to yield any benefits. 

 

I think the new strategy is the double-barrel blast of vaccine and Aussie style lockdown. They're happy to announce the former, but still a wee bit too scared to do the latter, so its just being revealed to us like one of those Catchphrase animations.

 

Absolutely.  The portrayal of a power crazed despot is genuinely difficult to process.  It's simply not true and very unhelpful on multiple levels.  An impairment to healthy debate and coherent thought.

 

Leaders have made plenty of mistakes but one of the main ones to introduce a lot of measures and 'rules' with too light a touch.  Too much complexity,  confusion and contradiction as well.  But not everthing can be glibly blamed on governments.  The actions of people within and beyond what is deemed to be 'allowed' has also contained a fair degree of lamentable stuff.  Society's collective efforts have left a hell of a lot to be desired imo.  The government's task could have been greatly aided by a more determined public.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Victorian

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

2 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

What are you not getting?

These are covid diagnosed cases on top of other cases.

 

not necessarily - covid is the dominant respiratory virus at the moment - many of the thousands who would normally be struggling with flu etc are actually already counted in the covid numbers - well according to alien spotter who I was listening to

[Victorian]

12 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

I kind of agree with this, it’s preventative as they don’t know what going on with this thing.
 

I’m a million miles away from happy with it and not all that comfortable with some of the proposed laws, whilst fundamentally I’ve never really bought into lockdowns. All that said I can understand this and there is undoubtably a element of learning.
 

Preventative measures should be early and hard to maximise it. 

 

The fish is more cautious by nature and think she may see this of a bit of blessing in disguise/no loose situation for her and perhaps closer to how she’d like to play it. 
 

She goes hard and early and this new variation is as bad as they say she saved life’s etc etc
 

If it turns out to be less damaging or not as infectious as thought, the numbers in Scotland should be really really low and will provide some form positive position whatever strategy next. (The tiers well intentioned have been a massive failure£
 

The problem is this all dependent on vaccines coming to the rescue and soon. We won’t have of Modena to get us even close through this anytime soon. That Oxford vaccine approval is desperately required to start jabbing us up. 

 

Otherwise I fear this falls apart badly. 

 

Agree with this.  I think the latest thought is to build a factor of safety into every major move.  

 

We could really do with the AZ vaccine.  Looks like the next batch of the Pfizer one will take a while and will be limited in numbers.  Plus it's the less weildy cold chain supply one.  The AZ has a much shakier efficacy of course.  I would have thought this should be accompanied by a campaign of an antibody test follow up.

[Brighton Jambo]

19 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

I kind of agree with this, it’s preventative as they don’t know what going on with this thing.
 

I’m a million miles away from happy with it and not all that comfortable with some of the proposed laws, whilst fundamentally I’ve never really bought into lockdowns. All that said I can understand this and there is undoubtably a element of learning.
 

Preventative measures should be early and hard to maximise it. 

 

The fish is more cautious by nature and think she may see this of a bit of blessing in disguise/no loose situation for her and perhaps closer to how she’d like to play it. 
 

She goes hard and early and this new variation is as bad as they say she saved life’s etc etc
 

If it turns out to be less damaging or not as infectious as thought, the numbers in Scotland should be really really low and will provide some form positive position whatever strategy next. (The tiers well intentioned have been a massive failure£
 

The problem is this all dependent on vaccines coming to the rescue and soon. We won’t have of Modena to get us even close through this anytime soon. That Oxford vaccine approval is desperately required to start jabbing us up. 

 

Otherwise I fear this falls apart badly. 

I can see the logic of her wanting to be proactive and get ahead of this which as given we have a lower starting level of the virus means we could be in a really good position.

 

But and it’s a big but we then have to see the tangible benefits of that by seeing her ease the restrictions to reflect that fact.  What it currently feels like is we take more pain than most places in terms of restrictions but don’t get the gain from it in way of actually seeing our liberties returned.  That’s a very difficult strategy to expect people to buy in to and if they aren’t bought in they won’t comply and we won’t get the reduction in cases.  

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

👍 I don't doubt your description of what she said J-J.    (Not getting at you at all )     Just a strange piece of "bad news" dressed as "good news" .... and then dressed as "bad news" again.    So many aspects of  this crisis seem bonkers.   

 

   

 

I think that certain sections of the media are more interested in playing out their own agenda and if that includes sensationalist headlines, they don't care what effect that has on some people's mental health, it's all click bait as far as they're concerned.

 

I just feel that the media needs to be more responsible in all of this, especially since this has been going on for many months now and more and more people's mental health is being affected.

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

6 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

Garden centres and a variety other termed essential shops previously to become non essential shops. 

I get garden centres and IKEA closing down.  But not B&Q.  Surely being able to do essential DIY (not living with a dripping tap for example) means some basic plumbing items are essential. 

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Sorry, I really don't get the blaming of the 'the people'. People should be congratulated for sticking two fingers up to the complex, confusing and contradictory rules that have amounted to a waste of everyone's 2020. The two governments (two too many!) have inspired neither confidence nor trust in their approach, so unless they literally have police and potentially military monitoring the streets, I would be surprised if any new measures do anything more than drive people to socialise in what - according to the figures - are the most dangerous places, our homes.

 

Can only hope the vaccine roll out is successful.

 

It's not blame.  More of an observation.  An opinion.  There's no point in just blaming.  But I stand by the premise.  What is achieved by any ground lost as a result of poor observance of the more basic instructions?  A prolonging of the misery.  A collective act of self harm.

 

Was it even possible to expect millions of people to act in concert like a colony of bees?  Probably not I suppose.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Victorian

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

I get garden centres and IKEA closing down.  But not B&Q.  Surely being able to do essential DIY (not living with a dripping tap for example) means some basic plumbing items are essential. 

 

I'd imagine that for some people that DIY job could be the one thing that keeps them active and their mind occupied, rather than sitting doing nothing and worrying and getting into a deeper dark place.

 

So yeh, keep the likes of B&Q etc open.

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

I get garden centres and IKEA closing down.  But not B&Q.  Surely being able to do essential DIY (not living with a dripping tap for example) means some basic plumbing items are essential. 

Fixing a  dripping  tap is essential?

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I'd imagine that for some people that DIY job could be the one thing that keeps them active and their mind occupied, rather than sitting doing nothing and worrying and getting into a deeper dark place.

 

So yeh, keep the likes of B&Q etc open.

Ok. But on the same logic why not garden centres and Ikea?

[CavySlaveJambo]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Fixing a  dripping  tap is essential?

I just used that as an example.  But some DIY jobs can’t wait. 

[Brighton Jambo]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's not blame.  More of an observation.  An opinion.  There's no point in just blaming.  But I stand by the premise.  What is achieved by any ground lost as a result of poor observance of the more basic instructions?  A prolonging of the misery.  A collective act of self harm.

 

Was it even possible to expect millions of people to act in concert like a colony of bees?  Probably not I suppose.

I wonder if being more explicit about what the ‘reward’ will be if people do comply then it might make people more willing to buy in.   As per my comment above I suspect people feel that no matter how much they comply restrictions just get harder and yet death rates aren’t actually any lower in Scotland than anywhere else despite that (the reason I make that point is that this would seem the obvious reward but in the absence of that we need to fall back on the restoration of liberties)
 

If she laid out specific criteria, data driven criteria that then triggered restrictions easing people could see a tangible linkage between actions and rewards.  The problem with the tiers that too many intangible factors, which I am sure were well intentioned, meant people felt the goalposts were being moved on them and so stopped fully complying.  We can’t make that mistake again.  
 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Brighton Jambo

[Victorian]

All basic plumbing or electrical supplies can be bought online.  Some things can be required urgently or course and nobody should be forced into getting a tradesman in.  It's a tricky balance.

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

I just used that as an example.  But some DIY jobs can’t wait. 

But say 99% can wait. In my experience at least!

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I wonder if being more explicit about what the ‘reward’ will be if people do comply then it might make people more willing to buy in.   As per my comment above I suspect people feel that no matter how much they comply restrictions just get harder and yet death rates aren’t actually any lower in Scotland than anywhere else despite that (the reason I make that point is that this would seem the obvious reward but in the absence of that we need to fall back on the restoration of liberties)
 

If she laid out specific criteria, data driven criteria that then triggered restrictions easing people could see a tangible linkage between actions and rewards.  The problem with the tiers that too many intangible factors, which I am sure were well intentioned, meant people felt the goalposts were being moved on them and so stopped fully complying.  We can’t make that mistake again.  
 

 

 

Good idea but the magic money tree has all but lost its leaves with all the recent bribes sorry hand outs lately to various sections of society 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I wonder if being more explicit about what the ‘reward’ will be if people do comply then it might make people more willing to buy in.   As per my comment above I suspect people feel that no matter how much they comply restrictions just get harder and yet death rates aren’t actually any lower in Scotland than anywhere else despite that (the reason I make that point is that this would seem the obvious reward but in the absence of that we need to fall back on the restoration of liberties)
 

If she laid out specific criteria, data driven criteria that then triggered restrictions easing people could see a tangible linkage between actions and rewards.  The problem with the tiers that too many intangible factors, which I am sure were well intentioned, meant people felt the goalposts were being moved on them and so stopped fully complying.  We can’t make that mistake again.  
 

 

 

 

The whole thing is so unpredictable that setting targets now seems like a complete fool's errand.  Just look at the amount of complete U-turns on stuff.  I think if thrre was an answer to this then the behavioural boffins would already know about it.  It would already be employed.

[CavySlaveJambo]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Ok. But on the same logic why not garden centres and Ikea?

New furniture is not essential and it is out of season for most gardening work right now. 
 

the easiest thing would be to go back to March’s restrictions. In which case things were really clear as to what you could and couldn’t do and people would know what was expected of them. 
 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

This isn't to defend Sturgeon as such (because that will be the accusation) but she recently made comment a couple of times that her strategising would now be led by a determination to remain as ahead of the curve as possible.  That she's learned that not reacting quite quickly enough has always tended to be too late.  I think this latest set of announcements falls into that.  I think it's mainly a set of stuff she's putting in place in order to be pre-emptive.  

 

All arguments aside,  we've seen that a lot during all these months.  Leaders are being led by information,  data,  advice and often reacting just a bit too late.  Often involving complete U-turns on recent measures,  etc.  It looks to me that Sturgeon is going to at least try to do her reacting as quickly as possible.

 

This power trip shtick that's trotted out on a daily basis is genuinely difficult to witness.  I know people are frustrated and even angry but an over-arching belief that leaders are power mad or supposedly in their element can only result in to people closing their minds to each individual statement,  plea,  announcement.  How does one form an informed view from a default position that the leader is just power crazed?

 

 

Some good points there Victorian and I get the idea of being "ahead of the curve", but there has to be perspective and rationale.  To me, even discussing tightening Tier 4 restrictions before they have been introduced is bizarre. That strikes me as being headling grabbing and she should really learn to take stock and wait to find out more about this strain and how things pan out in January,  before threatening more measures.  She does have form for it too , rushing on to the steps of Bute House as soon as the Brexit votes were counted. I think she needs to hear other voices rather than from the small power-centre of the SNP, being her husband and one or two confidantes.

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Behaviourally the quickest way to change behaviours is through negative consequences. The problem is it doesn’t work in the long term, it actually cause resentment and induces the opposite behaviour. 
 

The govts have employed negative consequence to get the behaviours they wanted. They tried with the tier system to intro positive consequences but  that system has failed and negative consequences continue.

 

They are proposing to taking a step further now with ‘punishment’, which will accelerate the resentment.
 

They are moving into dangerous territory around compliance. I suspect after the initial lockdown burst you will see a big play around vaccine, that will require the Oxford vaccine approval for that, 
 

I’ll be honest I think we’re locked up until at least the most vulnerable are jabbed up but probably much more. That requires Oxford vaccine. Im probably being overly negative based on the strategy being taken, 

 

How useful is the Oxford vaccine for those who aren't within the most vulnerable groups? Its effectiveness seems quite on par with your average early middle aged persons immune system

[Jambo-Jimbo]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Ok. But on the same logic why not garden centres and Ikea?

 

Not quite the planting season, especially if the ground is frozen.

 

Ikea, never understood this attraction many people have with Ikea.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Some good points there Victorian and I get the idea of being "ahead of the curve", but there has to be perspective and rationale.  To me, even discussing tightening Tier 4 restrictions before they have been introduced is bizarre. That strikes me as being headling grabbing and she should really learn to take stock and wait to find out more about this strain and how things pan out in January,  before threatening more measures.  She does have form for it too , rushing on to the steps of Bute House as soon as the Brexit votes were counted. I think she needs to hear other voices rather than from the small power-centre of the SNP, being her husband and one or two confidantes.

 

But the stuff you mention is part of trying to stay ahead of the curve.  It can be seen as trying to be prepared.  To prepare in advance.  In the happy event that things do not get as bad as suggested,  measures can be rolled back in an instant.

 

Don't prepare ahead or react too late?... it's always proved to be damaging.  Don't worry too much about really heavy restrictions.  Believe you me,  the politicians will be very,  very aware that that has a limited shelf life.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Behaviourally the quickest way to change behaviours is through negative consequences. The problem is it doesn’t work in the long term, it actually cause resentment and induces the opposite behaviour. 
 

The govts have employed negative consequence to get the behaviours they wanted. They tried with the tier system to intro positive consequences but  that system has failed and negative consequences continue.

 

They are proposing to taking a step further now with ‘punishment’, which will accelerate the resentment.
 

They are moving into dangerous territory around compliance. I suspect after the initial lockdown burst you will see a big play around vaccine, that will require the Oxford vaccine approval for that, 
 

I’ll be honest I think we’re locked up until at least the most vulnerable are jabbed up but probably much more. That requires Oxford vaccine. Im probably being overly negative based on the strategy being taken, 

 

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

 

Behaviourally the quickest way to change behaviours is through negative consequences. The problem is it doesn’t work in the long term, it actually cause resentment and induces the opposite behaviour. 
 

The govts have employed negative consequence to get the behaviours they wanted. They tried with the tier system to intro positive consequences but  that system has failed and negative consequences continue.

 

They are proposing to taking a step further now with ‘punishment’, which will accelerate the resentment.
 

They are moving into dangerous territory around compliance. I suspect after the initial lockdown burst you will see a big play around vaccine, that will require the Oxford vaccine approval for that, 
 

I’ll be honest I think we’re locked up until at least the most vulnerable are jabbed up but probably much more. That requires Oxford vaccine. Im probably being overly negative based on the strategy being taken, 

Yeah it’s depressing times.  If we don’t start seeing a real improvement soon then UK and Scottish governments start having to very very difficult decisions to make.  If vaccines don’t have the desired effect and these restrictions go on and on you need to start having a dystopian debate about the future prospects of the young generation weighed against the lives of the elderly.   By that I don’t mean the economy though that increasingly must be a factor given how future generations will have to pay for all this but the tangible educational impacts on secondary school kids and their future career and educational prospects.  Let’s pray we never get there but that conversation can’t be postponed for ever if vaccines fail.  

[steve123]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

But the stuff you mention is part of trying to stay ahead of the curve.  It can be seen as trying to be prepared.  To prepare in advance.  In the happy event that things do not get as bad as suggested,  measures can be rolled back in an instant.

 

Don't prepare ahead or react too late?... it's always proved to be damaging.  Don't worry too much about really heavy restrictions.  Believe you me,  the politicians will be very,  very aware that that has a limited shelf life.

I agree with above, the issue though is policing there is no way there is the capacity to police all the laws brought in they rely on the public doing the right thing and that depends on public trust in my humble opinion governments of all persuasions in the UK have lost or are in danger of losing that.

[Guest]

Its hard to see any viable alternative  to the coming lockdown

 

Behaviourly they've already figured out that fear is the preferred and most effective method of control.

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Not quite the planting season, especially if the ground is frozen.

 

Ikea, never understood this attraction many people have with Ikea.

Neither have I but given Ikea's popularity I guess trying and failing to assemble flat pack furniture must take many people's minds off other things.

And as for gardening there are things I could be doing but am happy to deem inessential.

[Governor Tarkin]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

All our lefties swapped the red flag for the saltire and took up nationalism. So highly unlikely 

 

Not really. 

It's a natural progression.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, steve123 said:

I agree with above, the issue though is policing there is no way there is the capacity to police all the laws brought in they rely on the public doing the right thing and that depends on public trust in my humble opinion governments of all persuasions in the UK have lost or are in danger of losing that.

 

There never was any possibility of policing or enforcing the whole public.  All they can really do is to attempt to deal with the worst instances.  Nobody really expects that a low level,  lower risk infraction of a rule or law should be punished in any way.

 

The SG especially has tried to sell the concept that people should not seek to do the maximum possible within the rules or to conceive and justify ways to subvert the rules.  It's always been a plea to do the minimum level of things.  Also to try to follow the intended spirit of the rules.  They placed a lot of faith in the public to stick to a principle.