General Election 2019

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

A Tory government is almost worth it for the utter meltdown it has caused a certain resident of 'Uruguay' on Twitter.

 

 

 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

It would have been rude not to Boris. Congrats on the victory last night btw. Maybe a more up to dat photo for the avatar though. 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

12 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

For exactly the reasons in the post I quoted.

 

Well I'll need to disagree. We've no idea what sorta thing could happen that might change people's minds, even those older types. So having this arbitrary "Once in a generation" thing just gives people like Johnson an excuse to ignore Scotland's desire regardless of what is happening.

 

For example, if Boris closed Holyrood and that caused a massive surge in support for independence, even amongst those that were no. Would it be valid to deny an indepedence vote on the basis it was once in a generation in those circumstances?

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

I was thinking more along the line of.......

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Seymour M Hersh

[Ribble]

2 hours ago, Boab said:

I disagree of course but even if you were right, it shows, then, looking at the results, then that’s exactly what people want surely.

The SNP stated, clearly, their aims and were returned massively in Scotland.

If it wasn’t just Independence then it must have been their policies, no ?

You can’t have it both ways.

 

What other way was I talking about? The SNP get a free pass on policies from the vast majority of their support, had they won the once in a generation referendum in 2014 then the SNP as a party would be dead by now.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I was thinking more along the line of.......

 

 

 

 

There are other Boris's.

 

I'm kinda attached to mine, thanks all the same. 🙂

[Maroon Sailor]

Our poor Uruguay fellow must have only just recovered from the absolute horsing the English took from South Africa

[Mikey1874]

People must have got their views on Corbyn from the newspapers. 

 

But Brexit also decisive perhaps.

[Justin Z]

Not seen mentioned on here the BBC having white supremacist, head of an org that brazenly breaks electoral law, alt-righter "free speech champion" who sues people who say things he doesn't like Arron Banks on as just another election analyst last night.

 

Utterly disgraceful, and really tops off the incredible lack of impartiality the broadcaster millions of you pay license fees to embodies.

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

People must have got their views on Corbyn from the newspapers. 

 

But Brexit also decisive perhaps.

 

Have you seen any of his interviews ?

 

Clueless muppet who is better supergluing himself to a bus than leading a poliltical party

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

People must have got their views on Corbyn from the newspapers. 

 

But Brexit also decisive perhaps.

 

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Have you seen any of his interviews ?

 

Clueless muppet who is better supergluing himself to a bus than leading a poliltical party

 

Both these things can be, and are, true, because have you seen any of Johnson's interviews? Or hiding in fridges? The list goes on. And yet we all saw what happened last night. The masses are easily led.

[Boab]

Just now, Ribble said:

 

What other way was I talking about? The SNP get a free pass on policies from the vast majority of their support, had they won the once in a generation referendum in 2014 then the SNP as a party would be dead by now.

 Sorry, don’t agree. That’s disrespectful to the people who vote SNP. If their policies were rotten and all they had was Indy, they wouldn’t have won a landslide in Scotland.

They’ve got both !

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Have you seen any of his interviews ?

 

Clueless muppet who is better supergluing himself to a bus than leading a poliltical party

 

The analysis says it totally matters and is decisive how the leader is seen. Whatever the reasons Corbyn was never able to change anything albeit the 2017 manifesto got them 40% of vote. 

 

Boris is the most unpopular new prime minister (when he took over in July) in history and the analysis says people know he is a liar. 

 

But he has a new start now.

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

The analysis says it totally matters and is decisive how the leader is seen. Whatever the reasons Corbyn was never able to change anything albeit the 2017 manifesto got them 40% of vote. 

 

Boris is the most unpopular new prime minister (when he took over in July) in history and the analysis says people know he is a liar. 

 

But he has a new start now.

 

He's only PM because of the weak, piss poor opposition, led by an unelectable arsehole.

 

The Labour members are responsible for this. 

[leginten]

10 hours ago, Aaron78 said:

In the UK parliament, the SNP having enough seats to have an influence on matters which are voted on. After tonight, they won't have enough seats and their agenda will be insignificant thankfully.

 

I struggle to understand this kind of viewpoint, which I think illustrates exactly why there is a strong movement in favour of independence. You seem to be rejoicing in the idea that the vast majority of Scotland’s MPs will have little influence in the parliament to which they have been elected. It could have happened to Labour too; every single Scottish constituency could have returned a Labour MP and they too would be “marginalised” given the size of the Tory majority in England.

What exactly is the message you’re trying to put across? That Scotland doesn’t matter? If so, you’re a bit late – it has already been received loud and clear.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

He's only PM because of the weak, piss poor opposition, led by an unelectable arsehole.

 

The Labour members are responsible for this. 

 

There's that word again.

 

So again: It can be--and is--both.

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

He's only PM because of the weak, piss poor opposition, led by an unelectable arsehole.

 

The Labour members are responsible for this. 

 

The sort of leader you seem to want Labour to have is pretty much in policy terms Boris Johnson. 

 

So you have the Government you want. 

[Darren]

55 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Well I'll need to disagree. We've no idea what sorta thing could happen that might change people's minds, even those older types. So having this arbitrary "Once in a generation" thing just gives people like Johnson an excuse to ignore Scotland's desire regardless of what is happening.

 

For example, if Boris closed Holyrood and that caused a massive surge in support for independence, even amongst those that were no. Would it be valid to deny an indepedence vote on the basis it was once in a generation in those circumstances?

 

Once in a generation might be arbitrary but my general point of principle is we shouldn't be having another referendum within a decade of the last one. 

 

There is also the point of view that it would be easier for Yes to win after 25 years of a Tory shit show, as opposed to 10.

 

I'm not totally opposed to a second vote on independence, though. If a drastic change in "material circumstances" was to occur like in your example then my position would shift - I'm sure that would be the case for a lot of people.

 

I don't think a Tory majority or Brexit - much as I dislike both - necessitate the need for a new vote on the constitution.

 

Being part of the UK was what people voted for 2014 - I'm in the like it or lump it camp - for now.

[The White Cockade]

6 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

He's only PM because of the weak, piss poor opposition, led by an unelectable arsehole.

 

The Labour members are responsible for this. 

This

and also as Corbyn and his cronies chased  the decent Labour politicians out of the Shadow Cabinet to be replaced by Corbynites it will take years for them to recover any kind of popularity

Not sure why Labour members were duped into this as even Labour MP’s including left wingers knew it would end in disaster 

An idiot Prime Minister and a third rate rate Cabinet now running the country with no opposition

Sad times

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Darren said:

If a drastic change in "material circumstances" was to occur like in your example then my position would shift - I'm sure that would be the case for a lot of people.

 

I don't think a Tory majority or Brexit - much as I dislike both - necessitate the need for a new vote on the constitution.

 

If a constitutional change as massive as Brexit--with the added bonus of it being against the democratic will of an entire country (two actually) within a union--if that isn't a "change in material circumstances", I really don't know what is.

 

Some party outsider rich wankers in London grumbling about the EU for 30 years got the benefit of a new vote on the constitution and thanks to racist, xenophobic messaging, they turned an issue that 1% of the British public cared about into a 52% win.

 

Isn't this a massive double standard, and yet another case of 62% of the nation of Scotland's voice not mattering a jot in comparison to a few tax dodgers in the City?

[AlimOzturk]

4 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

Once in a generation might be arbitrary but my general point of principle is we shouldn't be having another referendum within a decade of the last one. 

 

There is also the point of view that it would be easier for Yes to win after 25 years of a Tory shit show, as opposed to 10.

 

I'm not totally opposed to a second vote on independence, though. If a drastic change in "material circumstances" was to occur like in your example then my position would shift - I'm sure that would be the case for a lot of people.

 

I don't think a Tory majority or Brexit - much as I dislike both - necessitate the need for a new vote on the constitution.

 

Being part of the UK was what people voted for 2014 - I'm in the like it or lump it camp - for now.

 

Even though we have voted overwhelmingly for SNP for the past ten years and overwhelmingly against Brexit. Of course there is a mandate for a new Scottish Independence referendum. 

[SectionDJambo]

I'm old enough to remember Labour having Michael Foot as their leader. Another choice by the left wing, which was, obviously from the outset, doomed to failure. This, and their previous leaving Jim Callaghan out to dry during the "winter of discontent", gave Thatcher carte blanche to do what ever she wanted for years.

For them to allow the same thing to happen again, for the sake of satisfying people so far out of touch with traditional Labour voters, is stupid and selfish. They have given the Tories a gift by having Corbyn up against the most right wing rabble that they have managed to collect together since the 70s.

Now Labour are going to allow Corbyn to hang around, to set things up so he can keep the failed policies and thinking the same, and try to get one of his mates elected leader, before he goes. Unless people within the Labour party put a stop to this madness, they will be finished as far as being electable is concerned. They will never be elected on current policy, if they couldn't run Johnston close this time. Blaming Brexit is nonsense and making excuses for having allowed the lunatics to run the asylum.

For all Tony Blair's faults in getting tangled up with Bush on the Iraq war, he knew how to beat the Tories and keep them out.

[Darren]

5 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If a constitutional change as massive as Brexit--with the added bonus of it being against the democratic will of an entire country (two actually) within a union--if that isn't a "change in material circumstances", I really don't know what is.

 

4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Even though we have voted overwhelmingly for SNP for the past ten years and overwhelmingly against Brexit. Of course there is a mandate for a new Scottish Independence referendum. 

 

Brexit and now the majority Tory Government have come as part of the package of being part of the UK. It's what Scotland voted for, to take part in the UK parliamentary process. The fact Scotland voted against Brexit in a UK-wide referendum doesn't matter a jot, frankly.

 

Abolishing the Scottish Parliament would obviously be a much more drastic action and one that would go against what was voted for in the 2014 referendum.

 

To paraphrase Peter O'Hanraha-hanrahan, I don't like it but I'll have to go along with it.

[Justin Z]

Just a reminder that if you voted Conservative last night, this is the sort of racist garbage you endorsed.

 

[Justin Z]

5 minutes ago, Darren said:

Abolishing the Scottish Parliament would obviously be a much more drastic action and one that would go against what was voted for in the 2014 referendum.

 

I think you meant to say one more that would go against what was voted for in the 2014 referendum.

 

But yeah, in the game of politics it's all about pushing the envelope, but not tearing it open. I think you've just hit on exactly why Boris won't push for something like that. But he knows people will just ho hum accept that the vow was bullshit and Brexit is a massively material change but it doesn't matter and he and his lying ilk will keep getting elected.

 

Edit: Also, the Scottish Parliament may as well have already been abolished already. It's been completely ignored on devolved matters related to Brexit. It has, in reality, zero sovereignty, and the Sewel convention is a zombie.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Justin Z

[Governor Tarkin]

14 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Just a reminder that if you voted Conservative last night, this is the sort of racist garbage you endorsed.

 

 

I'd have Hopkins as one of the first up against the wall.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Governor Tarkin

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Just a reminder that if you voted Conservative last night, this is the sort of racist garbage you endorsed.

 

 

Jings.    

[Justin Z]

Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I'd have Hopkins ase of the first up against the wall.

 

 

Just now, Victorian said:

Jings.    

 

When we're snapped back to this being reality, it's beyond ****ing chilling, isn't it?

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

I’m not convinced Bojo will deny it, I suspect he will grandstand for a bit but I think he will grant one. However, it will be very much on his terms and certainly not right now. 
 

The guy is not stupid and just to deny one,  for no other the reason than he can isn’t a sustainable position. It will, as you say,  massively stoke grievance which will only be to his overall detriment, whilst, at heart I do believe he is a democrat. I don’t think he will dismiss the will of the Scottish people as easily some do.
 

What would be Bojo grounds for rejecting the request? He will need to give some form of reasonable reason for denial and I wouldn’t rule out court cases around the issue, if he just said no. 
 

Scotland will have returned over 80% of seats for a party that stood on Indy 2. It would seem almost impossible to deny self determination when you take away all the bluster.
 

I suspect in the immediate term he will say it’s not suitable timing due to brexit but give some conditions where it could happen. 
 

I also think England and the tories are warming to the view of ‘England indepedence’ and I think the break up of the U.K. would be a pretty logical step once out the EU. 
 

It will definitely be interesting, the times they are a changing. 

 

 

Good post.

 

Tricky for Johnson though as he is on record as saying he will knock it back.

 

I suspect that the Holyrood 2021 election will be the watershed.  If an indy majority then game on.  It's a gamble, for both sides.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Good post.

 

Tricky for Johnson though as he is on record as saying he will knock it back.

 

I suspect that the Holyrood 2021 election will be the watershed.  If an indy majority then game on.  It's a gamble, for both sides.

 

He's on record as saying all sorts of shit he's never done, or even done the opposite of. We're in the era of post-truth, even post-promise--dare I say, post-vow--politics. It doesn't matter.

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

 

When we're snapped back to this being reality, it's beyond ****ing chilling, isn't it?

 

Just shows that there are so many people willing to ignore the bits of English nationalism / populist politics that aren't very nice.    Or are blissfully unaware of the existing undercurrents.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

Just shows that there are so many people willing to ignore the bits of English nationalism / populist politics that aren't very nice.    Or are blissfully unaware of the existing undercurrents.

 

In before the "Scottish Nationalism is racist and divisive" bullshit avalanche starts.

[I P Knightley]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

Very surreal down here. 

 

Pretty much all tories, couple of lib fems in the crowd. 

 

Reasons 

Lib dem- against brexit. 

Tory reasons where weird. 

 

-I want brexit done but hate the tories, brexit will be done, Johnson will ruin things, but corbyn will resign and labour will become electable and I vote for them next time. 

 

-I hate corbyn....why?

 

-Corbyn can't be trusted... But Boris can? 

 

-Labour will ruin the economy...... The national debt? 

 

-And ofc some true blues. 

 

 

At least things will get moving, if borris does what he says he will things will be OK, maybe? 

If not then the borrowed votes will Surley come back to bite them next time. 

 

Scotland.... No idea. 

 

We need to make our mind up. 

 

Imo a "all in" approach is needed to resolve the constitution. 

 

Scotland independent 

 

Or

 

Part of the uk, Scottish Parliament dissolved. 

 

No in-between. 

 

My favourite bit of this post ^ is at the very end, where it says it has been edited

51 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

People must have got their views on Corbyn from the newspapers. 

 

But Brexit also decisive perhaps.

There's little doubt that the right-wing media (for which, read, 'pretty much all media') have done nothing to polish that particular turd but he and his cronies did nothing to help himself; in my view, out of vanity.

 

Utterly stupid things like lying about watching the Queen's speech - when he'd be in the majority by saying he's never watched it in years - did no favours. Just unprepared for the most straightforward of questions. 

 

You didn't need to be influenced by any third party to establish a view that the guy is at least as dangerous as Johnson. 

 

13 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Now Labour are going to allow Corbyn to hang around, to set things up so he can keep the failed policies and thinking the same, and try to get one of his mates elected leader, before he goes. Unless people within the Labour party put a stop to this madness, they will be finished as far as being electable is concerned. They will never be elected on current policy, if they couldn't run Johnston close this time. Blaming Brexit is nonsense and making excuses for having allowed the lunatics to run the asylum.

For all Tony Blair's faults in getting tangled up with Bush on the Iraq war, he knew how to beat the Tories and keep them out.

Somebody's already said it but it's just like keeping Craig Levein in the corridors. 

 

I fully agree with you about Blair. The only encouraging thing in the lead up to the election was hearing him pairing up with John Major to speak sense about the whole thing. Absolutely different class, the pair of them, to the drongos and deadbeats we're left with. 

[Gorgiewave]

Pleased to see a fair few usual suspects raging today.

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Well I'll need to disagree. We've no idea what sorta thing could happen that might change people's minds, even those older types. So having this arbitrary "Once in a generation" thing just gives people like Johnson an excuse to ignore Scotland's desire regardless of what is happening.

 

For example, if Boris closed Holyrood and that caused a massive surge in support for independence, even amongst those that were no. Would it be valid to deny an indepedence vote on the basis it was once in a generation in those circumstances?

If + but + maybe = No.

[Ribble]

1 hour ago, Boab said:

 Sorry, don’t agree. That’s disrespectful to the people who vote SNP. If their policies were rotten and all they had was Indy, they wouldn’t have won a landslide in Scotland.

They’ve got both !

 

We'll have to agree to disagree in that case, honestly i'm yet to meet an SNP supporter who has attempted to argue for them based on their policies, all i've ever heard is independence and england/westminster bad rhetoric, not once has an SNP supporter said to me 'what about their policies on education, the economy and health?'.

 

Even when you look at the policies listed on the SNP website they struggle to go more than a sentence before mentioning westminster/uk government/brexit, so even when they are talking about the like of the fisheries their policy still centres around  independence ratehr than what they plan to do that is better.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Well a few scalps were skinned last night...Swinson , Widdecombe ( tried to re elected but got beat by a gay man !! Chukka got chukked, Nigel Dodds ( right wing DUP ****wit) Zac Goldsmith, and a few other nippy gits..Labour and the other parties made a fatal mistake by not voting for the Brexit deal....If they had the election would have been fought on the real issues and the outcome might have been different ? Despite being a remainer I did agree we should leave as it was a referendum and we it should be respected. It is now. Also BJ might opt for a softer Brexit as he hasn't got the ERG bossing the policy. It is in the countries interests and their party to do so. .Best news was Northern Ireland now has a majority of Nationalist/ Republicans for the first time...Brilliant...Over and out..

[Shanks said no]

St Ives Con Win

and that's it all folks

[132goals1958]

9 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

St Ives Con Win

and that's it all folks

 

Unless we can get Jo Swinson to revoke the General Election

[Maroon Sailor]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The sort of leader you seem to want Labour to have is pretty much in policy terms Boris Johnson. 

 

So you have the Government you want. 

 

Which is what ?

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

I’m not convinced Bojo will deny it, I suspect he will grandstand for a bit but I think he will grant one. However, it will be very much on his terms and certainly not right now. 
 

The guy is not stupid and just to deny one,  for no other the reason than he can isn’t a sustainable position. It will, as you say,  massively stoke grievance which will only be to his overall detriment, whilst, at heart I do believe he is a democrat. I don’t think he will dismiss the will of the Scottish people as easily some do.
 

What would be Bojo grounds for rejecting the request? He will need to give some form of reasonable reason for denial and I wouldn’t rule out court cases around the issue, if he just said no. 
 

Scotland will have returned over 80% of seats for a party that stood on Indy 2. It would seem almost impossible to deny self determination when you take away all the bluster.
 

I suspect in the immediate term he will say it’s not suitable timing due to brexit but give some conditions where it could happen. 
 

I also think England and the tories are warming to the view of ‘England indepedence’ and I think the break up of the U.K. would be a pretty logical step once out the EU. 
 

It will definitely be interesting, the times they are a changing. 

 

Interesting times indeed. But why should Boris grant it when the SNP have yet again failed to secure over 50% of the vote? Yes they are the largest party but the split remains at the levels of 2014 so theoretically nothing has changed. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Class of 75

[132goals1958]

8 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Interesting times indeed. But why should Boris grant it when the SNP have yet again failed to secure over 50% of the vote? Yes they are the largest party but the split remains at the levels of 2014 so theoretically nothing has changed. 

 

 

And that is before the stark reality of the black hole in Scotland,s finances.

[Don Dan]

13 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Interesting times indeed. But why should Boris grant it when the SNP have yet again failed to secure over 50% of the vote? Yes they are the largest party but the split remains at the levels of 2014 so theoretically nothing has changed. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

And that is before the stark reality of the black hole in Scotland,s finances

I’d need to see cast iron guarantees to back up the many claims the SNP have proffered for the benefits of independence before I’d consider voting Yes. 
 

 

[Don Dan]

18 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

Unless we can get Jo Swinson to revoke the General Election

Gina Millar and Joanna Cherry and hovering in the wings to put the skids under Brexit. It’s more difficult for them now though Boris has a big majority. 

[Jamhammer]

It was a one issue election and the main opposition failed to address that one issue. Fatally failing to recognise how sick and tired the public were of Brexit. As Noble as Corbyn's defence of the NHS etc was and is the people who voted leave and even a lot of remainers were only interested in Brexit.

The tragic thing is that this victory is a Trojan horse for Johnson and his ilk to destroy the NHS and wage war on the disadvantaged. I fully expect to see much more, "Scroungers, communists, loony lefties, Indy Whingers" etc in the popular press along with a rise in racism, Islamaphobia and right wing nonsense. 

Another sad day for Scotland but that's democracy for you.

[132goals1958]

7 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Gina Millar and Joanna Cherry and hovering in the wings to put the skids under Brexit. It’s more difficult for them now though Boris has a big majority. 

 

They have both had their day in the sun but to be fair to Gina Miller you have to admire her Philanthropy. 

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Quite correct.
2019 result:

SNP/independence (probably including some anti-Boris tactical votes)

45%

Non-SNP/against independence

55%

 

Same as 2014 referendum. Where’s the ‘mandate’?

Tory/Brexit part 45%

Non Tory/remain 55%

 

No brexit then. 👍

[Don Dan]

6 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Tory/Brexit part 45%

Non Tory/remain 55%

 

No brexit then. 👍

If only that was possible 🙏

[Jambo-Jimbo]

48 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

Unless we can get Jo Swinson to revoke the General Election

 

Speaking of the ex-Lib Dem leader, remember that pact they had with the Greens & Plaid Cymru, the one where they wouldn't stand against each other, well I bet she wishes it was extended to cover Scotland because Swinson lost by 149 votes & the Green candidate standing in her constituency got 916 votes.

 

Swinson would have probably won if her friendly Green candidate hadn't stood against her.

[132goals1958]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Speaking of the ex-Lib Dem leader, remember that pact they had with the Greens & Plaid Cymru, the one where they wouldn't stand against each other, well I bet she wishes it was extended to cover Scotland because Swinson lost by 149 votes & the Green candidate standing in her constituency got 916 votes.

 

Swinson would have probably won if her friendly Green candidate hadn't stood against her.

 

Yep it can be a cruel business. Naivety contributed to her downfall but I genuinely think her heart is in the right place so the cut and thrust of politics is probably not for her.