Naismith - aims for return against Rangers ( updated )

[Kiwidoug]

1 hour ago, lsimp77 said:

Obviously disappointing that he won’t be involved in the cup final, but if not risking him means we get a fully fit Naismith for next season, then it’s worth. We’d have comfortably finished 3rd if he was fit the entire season. 

He hasn't said he won't be though.  Says its doubtful I think.  If it's a risk however I agree with you.  I'm interested in him saying that it's all tied up and just waiting for the announcement.  Given that it would be such a popular announcement, I'm wondering if we are waiting to get something else encouraging over the line before announcing both.

 

We'll see.

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 hours ago, lsimp77 said:

Obviously disappointing that he won’t be involved in the cup final, but if not risking him means we get a fully fit Naismith for next season, then it’s worth. We’d have comfortably finished 3rd if he was fit the entire season. 

No  - we wouldn't have. Decent player that Naismith is, Killie's midfield 3 are well ahead of ours and ,of course, with Stevie Clarke pulling the strings, I don't see how we would have overturned a 15 point gap on them.

[The Treasurer]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

No  - we wouldn't have. Decent player that Naismith is, Killie's midfield 3 are well ahead of ours and ,of course, with Stevie Clarke pulling the strings, I don't see how we would have overturned a 15 point gap on them.

Doubt we would have lost to them at home twice, so there's at least a 6 point difference.

Doubt we would have lost to Hamilton and Dundee, that's another 6 points leaving a "gap" of only 3 points to make up.

[Jodami]

7 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Doubt we would have lost to them at home twice, so there's at least a 6 point difference.

Doubt we would have lost to Hamilton and Dundee, that's another 6 points leaving a "gap" of only 3 points to make up.

That's not quite right is it mate!

Irrespective, it's good news he has signed but it's not sensible for us to rely on him to the extent we have this season when he is 33 in September. There needs to be a lot of work done on set up and style of play in the pre season. As opposed to the ridiculous Gullane step back in time (we've lost a stack of points late in games so the fitness edge that was supposed to bring is nonsense) can we coach some attacking transition please. 

[TexasAndy]

7 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

The first two signings are Halkett and Naismith.

 

That's very encouraging.

That's where I am.  What a lot of people on here seem to have forgotten is how different we were as a team this season with a fit Naismith.  I get all the blah blah about relying on one player but it is what it is.  Naismith is a great influence around the team, if we can get an injury free season out of him also then great.  The Hearts team that started the season are better than the Killie team that are ending the season (or at the very least just as good).  

[Jodami]

4 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

That's where I am.  What a lot of people on here seem to have forgotten is how different we were as a team this season with a fit Naismith.  I get all the blah blah about relying on one player but it is what it is.  Naismith is a great influence around the team, if we can get an injury free season out of him also then great.  The Hearts team that started the season are better than the Killie team that are ending the season (or at the very least just as good).  

Sadly this is probably the way the club see things also. Complete reliance on a 33 year old to be fit for the entire season is optimistic at best or plain stupid in reality. Naismith needs to be managed so he is available for the important games and this includes ending his international career as soon as possible. We need to develop a style that can win games at Tynecastle specifically when he is not available. We have the best pitch in the league so play football on it. 

[TexasAndy]

2 minutes ago, Jodami said:

Sadly this is probably the way the club see things also. Complete reliance on a 33 year old to be fit for the entire season is optimistic at best or plain stupid in reality. Naismith needs to be managed so he is available for the important games and this includes ending his international career as soon as possible. We need to develop a style that can win games at Tynecastle specifically when he is not available. We have the best pitch in the league so play football on it. 

So what did we play between August and November?  FFS it's not that long ago that it's so hard to remember.  

[The Treasurer]

7 minutes ago, Jodami said:

Sadly this is probably the way the club see things also. Complete reliance on a 33 year old to be fit for the entire season is optimistic at best or plain stupid in reality. Naismith needs to be managed so he is available for the important games and this includes ending his international career as soon as possible. We need to develop a style that can win games at Tynecastle specifically when he is not available. We have the best pitch in the league so play football on it. 

Can't see that happening any time soon.

The way he talks it seems he genuinely loves playing for his country.

[Jodami]

2 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

So what did we play between August and November?  FFS it's not that long ago that it's so hard to remember.  

Clearly long enough for you, we never picked up a single point in November. 

Over reliance on Naismith is clearly not sensible as the season since late October has shown. That obviously needs addressed. 

[Boyces beard]

8 hours ago, droid said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/steven-naismith-agrees-deal-to-remain-at-hearts-1-4926520/amp

 

A huge boost for the club on and off the pitch.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

No  - we wouldn't have. Decent player that Naismith is, Killie's midfield 3 are well ahead of ours and ,of course, with Stevie Clarke pulling the strings, I don't see how we would have overturned a 15 point gap on them.

They really aren't. We have switched off for weeks now, they had everything to play for, ourselves nothing, in terms of league.

 

Over the 4 games, I am saying our midfield was superior. Killie have had consistency and a game plan, to counter on teams, and break up attacks from around 10 yards from their box. They are well organised, they have been relatively free of injury.

 

As shite as we have been this year, putting the boot in constantly to your own team without any feeling I just don't get.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

8 minutes ago, Jodami said:

Clearly long enough for you, we never picked up a single point in November. 

Over reliance on Naismith is clearly not sensible as the season since late October has shown. That obviously needs addressed. 

I think he means before November.

[TexasAndy]

11 minutes ago, Jodami said:

Clearly long enough for you, we never picked up a single point in November. 

Over reliance on Naismith is clearly not sensible as the season since late October has shown. That obviously needs addressed. 

So you are suggesting we don't sign Naismith because he's too big an influence???

[Jodami]

1 minute ago, TexasAndy said:

So you are suggesting we don't sign Naismith because he's too big an influence???

Yes, every time I state it's good news he's signed earlier in the thread I actually mean don't sign him!

The point I am making is obvious, it's a failing which has hurt us badly when he's been unavailable and it needs to be addressed. 

[Dayman]

59 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Doubt we would have lost to them at home twice, so there's at least a 6 point difference.

Doubt we would have lost to Hamilton and Dundee, that's another 6 points leaving a "gap" of only 3 points to make up.

In this scenario we’d gain 6 points and they’d lose 6 points making the gap from 15 down to 3, no? 

[Rudi Hates Hibees]

Great news.

 

If the 1st 2 summer signings are a bench mark then we are heading in the right direction. 

[JamboGraham]

It's all hypothetical of course but if you actually look at the numbers with and without Naismith it's not unreasonable to suggest that with him we could be 3rd right now.

 

We should ignore the first 'Naismith' period this season, the whole team was flying and the form was title winning. I would focus on the second 'Naismith' period as a more realistic indication of what we might reasonably have expected had he played the whole season. In this second 'Naismith' period we picked up 51% of available points. His first period out we picked up 20% of available points and 23% in his second period out.

 

If you do a simple calculation it would be an extra 7 points in his first period out and an extra 8 points in the second period out. 15 points in total, enough for 3rd place at the moment with a trip to Celtic Park yet to come.

 

It's too simplistic a calculation of course but I don't think it is any way unreasonable to suggest that if Naismith had remained fit for the season that we would be entering this final weekend very much in the mix for 3rd place. I don't see any evidence to suggest we would be clear.

Edited May 14, 2019 by JamboGraham

[CloustonHMFC]

2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

No  - we wouldn't have. Decent player that Naismith is, Killie's midfield 3 are well ahead of ours and ,of course, with Stevie Clarke pulling the strings, I don't see how we would have overturned a 15 point gap on them.

If Naismith had been fit there would never have been a 15 point gap to overturn. 

[Jammy T]

Do Levein haters opinion of Naismith alter because he says the manager has been great with him and we have the basics in place of a good team that can push on?

 

Does their opinion of Levein change in any way?

 

If not why not?

 

Will JKB-ers call out Naismith as an arsehole as they do fellow JKB-ers who are supportive of Levein.

 

If not why not?

Edited May 14, 2019 by Jammy T

[The Treasurer]

30 minutes ago, Dayman said:

In this scenario we’d gain 6 points and they’d lose 6 points making the gap from 15 down to 3, no? 

I was only using one of the games v Killie as an example, where we had a goal wrongly disallowed before they scored near the end.

It shows that fine margins can make a big difference.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

So did he play in a closed doors game? 

[The Treasurer]

14 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

Do Levein haters opinion of Naismith alter because he says the manager has been great with him and we have the basics in place of a good team that can push on?

 

Does their opinion of Levein change in any way?

 

If not why not?

 

Will JKB-ers call out Naismith as an arsehole as they do fellow JKB-ers who are supportive of Levein.

 

If not why not?

Good point.

I think I'd take the opinion of an international ex-EPL player who works with him every day over the blinkered opinion of some random slaver on JKB

[Jarhead]

1 hour ago, Jodami said:

That's not quite right is it mate!

Irrespective, it's good news he has signed but it's not sensible for us to rely on him to the extent we have this season when he is 33 in September. There needs to be a lot of work done on set up and style of play in the pre season. As opposed to the ridiculous Gullane step back in time (we've lost a stack of points late in games so the fitness edge that was supposed to bring is nonsense) can we coach some attacking transition please. 

Gullane Sands is a team bonding exercise. These days it’s used to break up the monotony of spending hours running round and round a pitch. 

[Absolute Scenes]

11 minutes ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

So did he play in a closed doors game? 

 

Sorry?, is this a real thing?

Edited May 14, 2019 by Absolute Scenes

[William H. Bonney]

23 minutes ago, clouston1992 said:

If Naismith had been fit there would never have been a 15 point gap to overturn. 

 

It’s a moot point. Naismith will never be fully fit. He’ll always have spells during the season when he’s out. 

I suppose it’s a gamble worth risking due to his talent. 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

20 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

Do Levein haters opinion of Naismith alter because he says the manager has been great with him and we have the basics in place of a good team that can push on?

 

Does their opinion of Levein change in any way?

 

If not why not?

 

Will JKB-ers call out Naismith as an arsehole as they do fellow JKB-ers who are supportive of Levein.

 

If not why not?

 

most folk are called out as arseholes based on more than one opinion

 

naismith is unlikely to slate levein irrespective of his opinion - he also seems keen to stay in Scotland so hearts fit the bill with not that many obvious alternatives

 

file original post in agenda trumps detail basket

 

next

 

 

 

 

 

[Dayman]

19 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

I was only using one of the games v Killie as an example, where we had a goal wrongly disallowed before they scored near the end.

It shows that fine margins can make a big difference.

Ah fair enough. He’s definitely the kind of player that turns a bore draw into a 1 goal win, or a draw into snatching a lucky win. 

[Spellczech]

43 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

most folk are called out as arseholes based on more than one opinion

 

naismith is unlikely to slate levein irrespective of his opinion - he also seems keen to stay in Scotland so hearts fit the bill with not that many obvious alternatives

 

file original post in agenda trumps detail basket

 

next

 

 

 

 

 

This is called fitting an argument to a preconceived conclusion...

[Unknown user]

50 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

most folk are called out as arseholes based on more than one opinion

 

naismith is unlikely to slate levein irrespective of his opinion - he also seems keen to stay in Scotland so hearts fit the bill with not that many obvious alternatives

 

file original post in agenda trumps detail basket

 

next

 

 

You're saying that Naismith doesn't have any real alternative options in Scotland?

There goes the credibility!

[Portable Badger]

1 hour ago, Jarhead said:

Gullane Sands is a team bonding exercise. These days it’s used to break up the monotony of spending hours running round and round a pitch. 

.............and making sandcastles before heading to Luca's for a '99 !!

[Inch Hearts]

13 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

You're saying that Naismith doesn't have any real alternative options in Scotland?

There goes the credibility!

 

Where in the central Scotland  would suit better? 

[Rudolf]

1 hour ago, The Treasurer said:

Good point.

I think I'd take the opinion of an international ex-EPL player who works with him every day over the blinkered opinion of some random slaver on JKB

Spot on.

 

We have some blinkered trumpets on here.

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Where in the central Scotland  would suit better? 

Who said anything about better?

[Inch Hearts]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Who said anything about better?

 

Better or similar would be alternative options.  Plastic pitch rules out Killie, Aberdeen too far North and Hibs are diddies.  Hearts are the perfect option for Naismith. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Inch Hearts said:

 

Better or similar would be alternative options.  Plastic pitch rules out Killie, Aberdeen too far North and Hibs are diddies.  Hearts are the perfect option for Naismith. 

The boy said he had no obvious alternatives though, that's just nonsense. Top league; Killie, Motherwell, Hamilton and St Mirren are all closer to home, Killie are putting in a proper pitch this summer IIRC, then there's Livingston and Hibs. All of them would welcome him with open arms even if the hun wouldn't.

[The Treasurer]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The boy said he had no obvious alternatives though, that's just nonsense. Top league; Killie, Motherwell, Hamilton and St Mirren are all closer to home, Killie are putting in a proper pitch this summer IIRC, then there's Livingston and Hibs. All of them would welcome him with open arms even if the hun wouldn't.

Not quite, they are just changing one shitty plastic pitch for a slightly less shitty plastic pitch

[Inch Hearts]

7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The boy said he had no obvious alternatives though, that's just nonsense. Top league; Killie, Motherwell, Hamilton and St Mirren are all closer to home, Killie are putting in a proper pitch this summer IIRC, then there's Livingston and Hibs. All of them would welcome him with open arms even if the hun wouldn't.

 

Is the Killie pitch confirmed?  There is alternatives of course but we are the best option when you look at the other clubs especially if he’s getting into the coaching side of things too.  We sign Naismith and posters use it as a way to try and get it up posters who want to change the poorly performing manager calling them clueless.  Makes little sense. 

[Jambof3tornado]

11 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

The first two signings are Halkett and Naismith.

 

That's very encouraging.

It is very impressive and hats off to Levein for being instrumental in both.

[GorgieFifeLife]

Naismith is a decent player at this stage of his career, no more no less. We need to guard against relying too much on him and actually get better quality players around him. I don't think he is some sort of messiah that a few are making him out to be. His opinion on Levein is irrelevant to me as he will be judged by results on the park.

[Enzo Chiefo]

One thing for sure is that had we had Steve Clarke at the helm, we would have been comfortably 3rd, regardless of whether Naismith was fit or not.

[Deans Jambo]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

One thing for sure is that had we had Steve Clarke at the helm, we would have been comfortably 3rd, regardless of whether Naismith was fit or not.

I would agree with this. Turned very average players into excellent Scottish top flight players. In fact was Kirk Broadfoot not about to retire?

[JamboAl]

17 minutes ago, GorgieFifeLife said:

Naismith is a decent player at this stage of his career, no more no less. We need to guard against relying too much on him and actually get better quality players around him. I don't think he is some sort of messiah that a few are making him out to be. His opinion on Levein is irrelevant to me as he will be judged by results on the park.

Do you not think with his moaning and cajoling he also brings out the best in players around him?

[Absolute Scenes]

24 minutes ago, GorgieFifeLife said:

Naismith is a decent player at this stage of his career, no more no less. We need to guard against relying too much on him and actually get better quality players around him. I don't think he is some sort of messiah that a few are making him out to be. His opinion on Levein is irrelevant to me as he will be judged by results on the park.

 

Naismith is no more than a decent player? what utter tripe - 2 post count sniff sniff

 

Had he not been injured he would have been a candidate for player of the year - just look at the stats of when he played in the team versus when he was out the team

 

that's not just a decent player - that's a player who's too good for this team and league

[Enzo Chiefo]

16 minutes ago, Deans Jambo said:

I would agree with this. Turned very average players into excellent Scottish top flight players. In fact was Kirk Broadfoot not about to retire?

Think he was yes. The ability of the manager is key in a league like the SPL. The OF will likely be even further ahead next seaaon, given Celtic will have a new manager and both teams will strengthen, so someone like Steve Clarke can make the difference between a 6th or a 3rd place finish.  Having Naismith is great but, he will probably be injured at some point next season so we certainly can't rely on him and should treat him as a bonus and another captain, given his influence on the players around him. It's the norm for players to praise their manager publicly as Berra, Cowie, Lafferty did with Cathro. Our most important signing next season will be a new manager and guys like Naismith will probably then be praising the different style of training or the new style of play.

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Think he was yes. The ability of the manager is key in a league like the SPL. The OF will likely be even further ahead next seaaon, given Celtic will have a new manager and both teams will strengthen, so someone like Steve Clarke can make the difference between a 6th or a 3rd place finish.  Having Naismith is great but, he will probably be injured at some point next season so we certainly can't rely on him and should treat him as a bonus and another captain, given his influence on the players around him. It's the norm for players to praise their manager publicly as Berra, Cowie, Lafferty did with Cathro. Our most important signing next season will be a new manager and guys like Naismith will probably then be praising the different style of training or the new style of play.

The thread is about Naismith not a new manager.  There's a separate thread for that without infesting the whole board and ruining every topic.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

This is called fitting an argument to a preconceived conclusion...

 

do you disagree with any of the specifics?

 

would you expect Naismith to come out in the media and question levein at this stage for example?

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

The thread is about Naismith not a new manager.  There's a separate thread for that without infesting the whole board and ruining every topic.

Posters mentioned Naismith's relationship with Levein so it's relevant. The point being that SN will be happy playing under whoever the new manager is.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

The boy said he had no obvious alternatives though, that's just nonsense. Top league; Killie, Motherwell, Hamilton and St Mirren are all closer to home, Killie are putting in a proper pitch this summer IIRC, then there's Livingston and Hibs. All of them would welcome him with open arms even if the hun wouldn't.

 

i said "not that many" which you appear to have translated to "no" - was that a reading or comprehension misunderstanding on ur  part?

 

that aside I wasn't teallly counting st mirren as a viable alternative - assuming killie out due to pitch Celtic and rangers not wanting him (doesn't even appear to be a rangers-driven media push for him) that leaves hibs and Aberdeen (unless we're counting st mirren etc)

 

as as far as I'm aware no reports of interest from either

 

= "not that many"

 

 

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

9 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Posters mentioned Naismith's relationship with Levein so it's relevant. The point being that SN will be happy playing under whoever the new manager is.

 

reports of him maybe going to st mirren apparently

 

 

[Gorgieshed]

8 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

reports of him maybe going to st mirren apparently

 

 

Hold on. What????