jambocub Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 41 minutes ago, sadj said: The incident prematch is when the alleged racial abuse happened. ? Was this in the ground or outside ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, To Be Frank said: I can’t find a single quote about the 20 fans. Wondering where it has originated from? Sure it was the police who claimed it was a group of 20 or something. Robinson said he’d watched it though I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just now, jambocub said: ? Was this in the ground or outside ? Read the thread ffs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just now, jack D and coke said: Sure it was the police who claimed it was a group of 20 or something. Robinson said he’d watched it though I think. Police only confirmed two people had been charged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambocub Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: Read the thread ffs ? Touch to trawl through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfurdaley Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: I can’t find a single quote about the 20 fans. Wondering where it has originated from? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46500299 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, jambocub said: ? Was this in the ground or outside ? In the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, fabienleclerq said: Of course they have a choice, what if it turns out the police (heaven forbid) got it wrong and they miss the Hibs game for example. Punnishing people before they are found guilty isn't on. What if they try and intimidate any possible witnesses ? The action Hearts have taken will have been on the orders of the Police. Stop trying to use this as a stick to beat the club with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, arfurdaley said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46500299 There’s no quote about the 20 fans there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: There’s no quote about the 20 fans there. Maybe Robinson didn’t say it. Might’ve just been mentioned in whatever report I read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: There’s no quote about the 20 fans there. This one claims their was "vile taunts" from around 20 supporters during the pre-match warm up. I know it's the Sun. https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3598717/motherwell-boss-stephen-robinson-blasts-hearts-fans-after-two-were-arrested-over-accusations-of-racism/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: There’s no quote about the 20 fans there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, graygo said: This one claims their was "vile taunts" from around 20 supporters during the pre-match warm up. I know it's the Sun. https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3598717/motherwell-boss-stephen-robinson-blasts-hearts-fans-after-two-were-arrested-over-accusations-of-racism/ Sun or not that puts to bed a lot of our theories on the alleged incident and the kickback song idea to bed if true Edited December 10, 2018 by sadj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, redm said: Maybe Robinson didn’t say it. Might’ve just been mentioned in whatever report I read. 3 minutes ago, graygo said: This one claims their was "vile taunts" from around 20 supporters during the pre-match warm up. I know it's the Sun. https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3598717/motherwell-boss-stephen-robinson-blasts-hearts-fans-after-two-were-arrested-over-accusations-of-racism/ 3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: None of these have a quote from anyone that it was 20 fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: There’s no quote about the 20 fans there. There is, mate. Second paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: There is, mate. Second paragraph. Who’s the quote from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: None of these have a quote from anyone that it was 20 fans. Someone has mentioned 20 fans it’s in more than one report. The BBC one and the Sun so someone has said it or seen it to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: None of these have a quote from anyone that it was 20 fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: Who’s the quote from? Ths guy who wrote the ****ing article, I would presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, graygo said: I’m not being obtuse, I’m asking who the 20 fans comment originated from. I’ve seen it suggested on here that it was Robinson/Budge/the police but there’s not a single quote to back that up and it doesn’t tie in with what I’ve been told happened before the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, To Be Frank said: I’m not being obtuse, I’m asking who the 20 fans comment originated from. I’ve seen it suggested on here that it was Robinson/Budge/the police but there’s not a single quote to back that up and it doesn’t tie in with what I’ve been told happened before the match. I could probably quote you at least 6 journalists who have had it printed, do you think they have all made it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, graygo said: I could probably quote you at least 6 journalists who have had it printed, do you think they have all made it up? Not necessarily but the initial comment must have come from somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 22 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: The article could be accurate, although perhaps a little misleading, in that 20 fans were shouting at the player but not necessarily using racial or sectarian language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, JamboAl said: The article could be accurate, although perhaps a little misleading, in that 20 fans were shouting at the player but not necessarily using racial or sectarian language. Apart from a few posters who have been told this and been told that, and a handfull of folk who might've seen something but are not sure that what they saw was the incident in question, then nobody actually knows and it's all speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7628mm Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, JamboAl said: The article could be accurate, although perhaps a little misleading, in that 20 fans were shouting at the player but not necessarily using racial or sectarian language. I seem to remember that the "media" (mainstream) said that the video was on social media. Certainly the Motherwell manager said he had seen it although he did not mention it being in the public domain. Has anyone on here been able to find this "video" on social media? I am only asking as there are 24 pages on this thread and as far as I am aware no one has mentioned actually viewing this as yet. I appreciate that 2 people have been charged by the Police and already banned by the club so it is "assumed" that they have a case to answer, but this is for the courts to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Is Back Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, 7628mm said: I seem to remember that the "media" (mainstream) said that the video was on social media. Certainly the Motherwell manager said he had seen it although he did not mention it being in the public domain. Has anyone on here been able to find this "video" on social media? I am only asking as there are 24 pages on this thread and as far as I am aware no one has mentioned actually viewing this as yet. I appreciate that 2 people have been charged by the Police and already banned by the club so it is "assumed" that they have a case to answer, but this is for the courts to deal with. Assumed being the correct word. It’s a fact of life that mistakes are made in all walks of life, and Police Scotland can be as incompetent as anyone else. With Kickbacks super sleuths you can be sure if the video was out there, it would be on here by now. It’s amazing what info we can dig up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 hours ago, sadj said: Was always reported as alleged as far as Iv seen they have to word it like that. Take it you didn't hear Jonathan on Sportscene. There were a fair few mentions on STV news as well and some BBC web articles. They've all added alleged as of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said: Police Scotland can be as incompetent as anyone else. More so, often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said: Assumed being the correct word. It’s a fact of life that mistakes are made in all walks of life, and Police Scotland can be as incompetent as anyone else. With Kickbacks super sleuths you can be sure if the video was out there, it would be on here by now. It’s amazing what info we can dig up Do you believe the Motherwell players, manager, the police and Ann Budge have all made a mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Where's the evidence this took place before the game? And if it did happen before the game why would it take over an hour and a half to make the arrests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamhammer Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Mbulu was a sub so, I suppose he could have been warming up during the game no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, To Be Frank said: Do you believe the Motherwell players, manager, the police and Ann Budge have all made a mistake? I think it's plausible they've mistaken the chant. 10-20 fans chanting we hate Kickback. It's not like they'd be expecting it. Certainly the Motherwell staff and players probably never even heard of Kickback. If you were a black man warming up a couple of yards away from section N it could quite easily be misconstrued. "We hate Kickback". The arrested party apparently accused of chanting "we hate the blacks". Honestly think it's more plausible than 20 Hearts fans involving themselves in a racist chant. Are you convinced it was prior to kick off? Even that doesn't make sense. The stands empty when the players are warming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JyTees said: Take it you didn't hear Jonathan on Sportscene. There were a fair few mentions on STV news as well and some BBC web articles. They've all added alleged as of today. I don’t pay much attention to the msm about this kinda thing , Jonathan Sutherland is a ****ing cockwomble of the highest order. One of the worst “journalists” for sensationalism. Read some of his match reports they are to vocabulary what i8 is to subtlety. Anything iv seen has had alleged though. In terms of the incident. If it did happen prematch , Id assume investigations took place from then and once there was enough evidence or corroboration to arrest they would do that as they were leaving in order to cause as little risk to an escalated situation as possible. This was from a copper mate this could be whats happened “If someone’s says something racist, but only one person hears the racism, as long as there’s corroboration of the statutory breach of the peace, the racist part just goes in as an aggravator” Edited December 10, 2018 by sadj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Jamhammer said: Mbulu was a sub so, I suppose he could have been warming up during the game no? Exactly. The curve ball has been added by the alleged events taking place prior to ko. I've no idea if Frank's info is spot on or if there's been a wee bit Chinese whispers along the way, confusion added due to Mbulu warming up when it happened. Just doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Is Back Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, To Be Frank said: Do you believe the Motherwell players, manager, the police and Ann Budge have all made a mistake? Do I believe that they all could make a mistake? Yes I do. Have they in this instance? I don’t know. I haven’t seen or heard the evidence that they and others have. The truth will eventually come out officially, and then we’ll all know for sure and not have to rely on internet chat. The point I made was that PS are incompetent as any. I stand by that belief which is based on solid evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JyTees said: I think it's plausible they've mistaken the chant. 10-20 fans chanting we hate Kickback. It's not like they'd be expecting it. Certainly the Motherwell staff and players probably never even heard of Kickback. If you were a black man warming up a couple of yards away from section N it could quite easily be misconstrued. "We hate Kickback". The arrested party apparently accused of chanting "we hate the blacks". Honestly think it's more plausible than 20 Hearts fans involving themselves in a racist chant. Are you convinced it was prior to kick off? Even that doesn't make sense. The stands empty when the players are warming up. The info in reports and from some people/staff at the game to me and I believe from Franks sources all confirm that the alleged racist abuse occured pre match. That would explain our subs warming up at a different end as some have also mentioned. From there the chant may have been kickback indeed during the game and not be part of the incident at all other than people assuming thats what its to do with. Although the reports do say around 20people were hurling abuse prematch so who knows maybe its just an attempt at getting out of a shit situation we are in. Edited December 10, 2018 by sadj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, sadj said: I don’t pay much attention to the msm about this kinda thing , Jonathan Sutherland is a ****ing cockwomble of the highest order. One of the worst “journalists” for sensationalism. Read some of his match reports they are to vocabulary what i8 is to subtlety. Anything iv seen has had alleged though. In terms of the incident. If it did happen prematch , Id assume investigations took place from then and once there was enough evidence or corroboration to arrest they would do that as they were leaving in order to cause as little risk to an escalated situation as possible. This was from a copper mate this could be whats happened “If someone’s says something racist, but only one person here’s the racism, as long as there’s corroboration of the statutory breach of the peace, the racist part just goes in as an aggravator” A quick Google and you'll find a litany of racial adjectives being tossed around without the added alleged preceding it by the MSM. Get your point re the arrests being made when leaving. I still can't comprehend how the offence could take place prior to the kick off in an empty stadium though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John mcCartney Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 could be possible that within the hate kickback chant was one or two unsavoury characters who twisted the words a fraction when Mbulu was nearby warming up......eyes meeting,flare up etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, sadj said: That would explain our subs warming up at a different end as some have also mentioned. Just on this point. When were the subs warming up at a different end? Certainly not the case during the first half. Well players back and forward passed N for the whole first 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, John mcCartney said: could be possible that within the hate kickback chant was one or two unsavoury characters who twisted the words a fraction when Mbulu was nearby warming up......eyes meeting,flare up etc Entirely , the basics appear to be though it happened before the game and it was stuff directed straight at the Motherwell players. The chant is maybe something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, John mcCartney said: could be possible that within the hate kickback chant was one or two unsavoury characters who twisted the words a fraction when Mbulu was nearby warming up......eyes meeting,flare up etc That's actually crossed my mind, and I think more plausible than someone ranting abuse from an empty section where there's no hiding place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, JyTees said: Just on this point. When were the subs warming up at a different end? Certainly not the case during the first half. Well players back and forward passed N for the whole first 45. I don’t know it was mentioned on here a couple of pages ago. I have no idea who by off the top of my head. There is various different scenarios which could all fit but there is also good sources saying prematch is when the alleged incident occured. Either way imo the club have done the right thing and we can only hope as time progresses that it wasn’t what we as other supporters fear it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, John mcCartney said: could be possible that within the hate kickback chant was one or two unsavoury characters who twisted the words a fraction when Mbulu was nearby warming up......eyes meeting,flare up etc I have no idea what happened and had avoided posting for that reason but that is definitely an interesting theory. An example of similar was when Sweet Caroline was hijacked by a few wanting to add a line about the pope. Edited December 10, 2018 by Hungry hippo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, sadj said: I don’t know it was mentioned on here a couple of pages ago. I have no idea who by off the top of my head. There is various different scenarios which could all fit but there is also good sources saying prematch is when the alleged incident occured. Either way imo the club have done the right thing and we can only hope as time progresses that it wasn’t what we as other supporters fear it to be. I mentioned it but was just repeating what someone else posted earlier, never saw it myself as I was down on the concourse so can't confirm it but I assumed it was the half time kickbout. Edited December 10, 2018 by graygo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyTees Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, sadj said: I don’t know it was mentioned on here a couple of pages ago. I have no idea who by off the top of my head. There is various different scenarios which could all fit but there is also good sources saying prematch is when the alleged incident occured. Either way imo the club have done the right thing and we can only hope as time progresses that it wasn’t what we as other supporters fear it to be. Yep, the truth will out and hopefully it's been one huge misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadj Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 minute ago, graygo said: I mentioned it but was just repeating what someone else posted earlier but never saw it myself as I was down on the concourse so can't confirm it but I assumed it was the half time kickbout. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oi oi Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 hours ago, Brauhauser2012 said: If you know our history we were the first Scottish team to have a coloured professional player. Thought it was Andrew Watson? But then I guess he wasn't professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 27 minutes ago, JyTees said: Just on this point. When were the subs warming up at a different end? Certainly not the case during the first half. Well players back and forward passed N for the whole first 45. At half time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oi oi Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 hours ago, To Be Frank said: Was it Robinson who claimed it was 20 fans? First I heard 10-20 fans was Richard Gordon on Sportsound on my car wireless after the match. No idea where he got that from though. He said something along the lines of "10-20 fans were involved in the alleged incident". I'm not sure if the show is available on the iPlayer if someone wants to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, JyTees said: Where's the evidence this took place before the game? And if it did happen before the game why would it take over an hour and a half to make the arrests? 7 hours ago, JyTees said: I think it's plausible they've mistaken the chant. 10-20 fans chanting we hate Kickback. It's not like they'd be expecting it. Certainly the Motherwell staff and players probably never even heard of Kickback. If you were a black man warming up a couple of yards away from section N it could quite easily be misconstrued. "We hate Kickback". The arrested party apparently accused of chanting "we hate the blacks". Honestly think it's more plausible than 20 Hearts fans involving themselves in a racist chant. Are you convinced it was prior to kick off? Even that doesn't make sense. The stands empty when the players are warming up. Before the match kicked off the Motherwell players were warming up in that half. There’s been an incident between Mbulu and a number of Hearts fans which has led to other Motherwell players getting involved. Stewards and police have then came over to deal with the situation. The reason the 20 fans thing doesn’t make sense for me is because the incident before the game only involved a few fans. My own interpretation is that that section has then been getting filmed throughout the first half while the subs ran past and that’s maybe where the song thing comes in. The Well players, in presence of the manager, have been asked to make a quick ID of the fans involved in the ore-match incident using the video. This would explain why Robinson was able to talk about having seen the video when interviewed immediately after the match and also why the Motherwell subs weren’t warming up where the away team normally would at halftime. Basing this on things I know did happen and what others have said. ?? Edited December 11, 2018 by To Be Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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