Ron Burgundy Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: Absolutely agree. Except they don't do a good job of escaping the stereotype. I would say neither does enough to distance themselves from the mentalist element within each group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, Ron Burgundy said: I would say neither does enough to distance themselves from the mentalist element within each group. Can you see the problem with your analogy here in the difference between actively choosing to go out and support someone/something like the EDL, versus simply going about your daily life having been born into a religion you practise quietly with no imposition on anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said: Just as not all Muslims are suicide bombers I'm using the same logic that not all people supporting this guy are rabid racists. Aye but they have picked out one fat bald neo Nazi in the crowd doing a Nazi salute likesy ken. These people don't get it though. It can not be more simple really. If you dismiss all Tommy Robinson supporters as racist then you are a bigot. Had to come off this thread for a while as it was actually making me nauseous, all the competing to see who hates Tommy more so therefore is the better person. Tommy Robinson has millions upon millions of supporters all over the world. Supporters ranging from highly esteemed academics to the working class Joe Schmoe. To suggest that makes them racist makes that person the most cretinous of cretins. Edited June 11, 2018 by i8hibsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Can you see the problem with your analogy here in the difference between actively choosing to go out and support someone/something like the EDL, versus simply going about your daily life having been born into a religion you practise quietly with no imposition on anyone else? But Muslims choose to actively follow Islam, that's their choice and if they do so peacefully there's no problem. If you peacefully protest about something without using violence then, again, there is no problem. Also why have you mentioned the EDL? I am not following this very closely but I'm sure a huge percentage are not EDL members but arguing what they see as an injustice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, Ron Burgundy said: But Muslims choose to actively follow Islam, that's their choice and if they do so peacefully there's no problem. If you peacefully protest about something without using violence then, again, there is no problem. Also why have you mentioned the EDL? I am not following this very closely but I'm sure a huge percentage are not EDL members but arguing what they see as an injustice. Rightly or wrongly (and as an atheist I have mixed feelings about this) we legally treat membership of a religion as an inherent characteristic, pretty much the same as race, gender, etc. However I think we do that based on fairly solid ground. So you can say something like "Muslims choose to actively follow Islam" but that is really a deflection from the argument I was making: we view membership in a religion and its practice as something different than the march you saw here, or joining a group like the EDL/a leader like Tommy Robinson (which is why I brought the EDL up--as a general, but related, example). I would challenge your assertion further that "Muslims choose to actively follow Islam" with the equivalent "Christians choose to actively follow Christianity". But keeping things close to home, did we ever see Catholics asked to actively disavow murders the IRA committed in order to "prove" that they personally are okay? Of Protestants to condemn Ulster loyalist paramilitary terrorist acts, in order to "do enough to distance themselves from the mentalist element"? I certainly hope not, at least not by any decent part of society, for exactly the same reason: good, moral people had nothing to do with any of that, and they have no responsibility to distance themselves from it at all in order to be presumed good and moral. Your analogy fails. Not your conclusion--I agree there are probably a few non-racists in that group, somewhere. And there are really only probably a relative few truly rabid racists like the guy in the picture. The majority will be like i8 and his ilk, comfortably dinner table racist, "have plenty of Muslim friends", etc., yet actively supporting white supremacy all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: It’s really quite simple - Robinson is in contempt of court. He’d been warned and he’s breached the terms of a previous sentence. It’s not difficult to see why the collection of neds in London struggle to compute this but it shouldn’t take much explaining. Unfortunately, enough some on here are as thick as s**t and don’t understand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Justin Z said: Rightly or wrongly (and as an atheist I have mixed feelings about this) we legally treat membership of a religion as an inherent characteristic, pretty much the same as race, gender, etc. However I think we do that based on fairly solid ground. So you can say something like "Muslims choose to actively follow Islam" but that is really a deflection from the argument I was making: we view membership in a religion and its practice as something different than the march you saw here, or joining a group like the EDL/a leader like Tommy Robinson (which is why I brought the EDL up--as a general, but related, example). I would challenge your assertion further that "Muslims choose to actively follow Islam" with the equivalent "Christians choose to actively follow Christianity". But keeping things close to home, did we ever see Catholics asked to actively disavow murders the IRA committed in order to "prove" that they personally are okay? Of Protestants to condemn Ulster loyalist paramilitary terrorist acts, in order to "do enough to distance themselves from the mentalist element"? I certainly hope not, at least not by any decent part of society, for exactly the same reason: good, moral people had nothing to do with any of that, and they have no responsibility to distance themselves from it at all in order to be presumed good and moral. Your analogy fails. Not your conclusion--I agree there are probably a few non-racists in that group, somewhere. And there are really only probably a relative few truly rabid racists like the guy in the picture. The majority will be like i8 and his ilk, comfortably dinner table racist, "have plenty of Muslim friends", etc., yet actively supporting white supremacy all the same. You are making an argument I am not. The fact you state there are probably a few non racist in the group (somewhere) is exactly the same as someone saying there are probably a few muslims who are not terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said: You are making an argument I am not. Perhaps. 1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said: The fact you state there are probably a few non racist in the group (somewhere) is exactly the same as someone saying there are probably a few muslims who are not terrorists. No. It isn't. Have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Hardcastle Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Seems the wee brothers in the SDL want a march In Glasgow. Yet more wasted public service money policing chumps in their best clobber and union jacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff the Mince Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Justin Z said: Rightly or wrongly (and as an atheist I have mixed feelings about this) we legally treat membership of a religion as an inherent characteristic, pretty much the same as race, gender, etc. However I think we do that based on fairly solid ground. So you can say something like "Muslims choose to actively follow Islam" but that is really a deflection from the argument I was making: we view membership in a religion and its practice as something different than the march you saw here, or joining a group like the EDL/a leader like Tommy Robinson (which is why I brought the EDL up--as a general, but related, example). I would challenge your assertion further that "Muslims choose to actively follow Islam" with the equivalent "Christians choose to actively follow Christianity". But keeping things close to home, did we ever see Catholics asked to actively disavow murders the IRA committed in order to "prove" that they personally are okay? Of Protestants to condemn Ulster loyalist paramilitary terrorist acts, in order to "do enough to distance themselves from the mentalist element"? I certainly hope not, at least not by any decent part of society, for exactly the same reason: good, moral people had nothing to do with any of that, and they have no responsibility to distance themselves from it at all in order to be presumed good and moral. Your analogy fails. Not your conclusion--I agree there are probably a few non-racists in that group, somewhere. And there are really only probably a relative few truly rabid racists like the guy in the picture. The majority will be like i8 and his ilk, comfortably dinner table racist, "have plenty of Muslim friends", etc., yet actively supporting white supremacy all the same. I8 supports white supremists? Edited June 11, 2018 by Geoff the Mince wording Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmore Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sexton Hardcastle said: Seems the wee brothers in the SDL want a march In Glasgow. Yet more wasted public service money policing chumps in their best clobber and union jacks. If the SDL are there to defend us against the EDL, what's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 53 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said: I am not following this very closely but I'm sure a huge percentage are not EDL members but arguing what they see as an injustice. The injustice being that TR was jailed for contempt of court? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 The arguments about this keep going around and around in circles. He is not a political prisoner. This is not a violation of freedom of speech. The reporting ban on the grooming gang case was there to protect the case and Stephen Yaxley Lennon decided to report anyways. He is in jail for putting the grooming gang case in jeopardy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, i8hibsh said: Aye but they have picked out one fat bald neo Nazi in the crowd doing a Nazi salute likesy ken. These people don't get it though. It can not be more simple really. If you dismiss all Tommy Robinson supporters as racist then you are a bigot. Had to come off this thread for a while as it was actually making me nauseous, all the competing to see who hates Tommy more so therefore is the better person. Tommy Robinson has millions upon millions of supporters all over the world. Supporters ranging from highly esteemed academics to the working class Joe Schmoe. To suggest that makes them racist makes that person the most cretinous of cretins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, Boris said: The injustice being that TR was jailed for contempt of court? Some people are far too stupid to realise this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said: Some people are far too stupid to realise this. Importantly for him, Robinson knows this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: Importantly for him, Robinson knows this too. Exactly. The gullible believe anything they are told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said: Some people are far too stupid to realise this. which pretty much explains why Robinson/Lennon is able to garner support. He knew what he was doing, he knew he was risking arrest and jail but he went ahead anyway. If you support that then you essentially support a society where the courts have no authority, or no enforceable authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmore Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 56 minutes ago, Cade said: The arguments about this keep going around and around in circles. He is not a political prisoner. This is not a violation of freedom of speech. The reporting ban on the grooming gang case was there to protect the case and Stephen Yaxley Lennon decided to report anyways. He is in jail for putting the grooming gang case in jeopardy. He knew all this before dciding to do what he done. He's basically been locked up for having a massive ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 If I had genuine concerns about Muslim grooming gangs, but was not already a horrible racist, I would not express my concerns on the matter by attending an EDL march. If I was a horrible racist, and wanted to publically display my hatred for Muslims, yet was seeking an "acceptable" means to bash Islam in public whilst superficially having a worthy cause, an EDL event outside such a trial would be the best means to do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: Importantly for him, Robinson knows this too. And funnily enough, he actually pleaded guilty. He admitted he broke the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 46 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: And funnily enough, he actually pleaded guilty. He admitted he broke the law. Exactly, so that makes the thick more thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said: Exactly, so that makes the thick more thick. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Justin Z said: The majority will be like i8 and his ilk, comfortably dinner table racist, "have plenty of Muslim friends", etc., yet actively supporting white supremacy all the same. I'll take issue with this. He talks pish on here but i8 certainly isn't a white supremacy supporter. That's a horrible accusation to blindly chuck around. You should wind your neck in with that shit, mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 38 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: I'll take issue with this. He talks pish on here but i8 certainly isn't a white supremacy supporter. That's a horrible accusation to blindly chuck around. You should wind your neck in with that shit, mate. Indeed. I don't agree with more or less any of his political views but "white supremacist "? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge of Djoum Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said: Just as not all Muslims are suicide bombers I'm using the same logic that not all people supporting this guy are rabid racists. Yep. That's a bang on analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Cade said: The arguments about this keep going around and around in circles. He is not a political prisoner. This is not a violation of freedom of speech. The reporting ban on the grooming gang case was there to protect the case and Stephen Yaxley Lennon decided to report anyways. He is in jail for putting the grooming gang case in jeopardy. Yes he is and no he isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge of Djoum Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 22 hours ago, Justin Z said: All so perfectly captured in one photo The irony of a Nazi salute whilst standing with the British flag is amazing. I do like Lyle & Scott, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 21 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: Yes he is and no he isn't He is not a political prisoner ffs. He broke the same law twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Notts1874 said: He is not a political prisoner ffs. He broke the same law twice. There goes almost every political prisoner in history then. That bloody criminal Mandela...Pesky suffragettes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said: There goes almost every political prisoner in history then. That bloody criminal Mandela...Pesky suffragettes. FFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said: There goes almost every political prisoner in history then. That bloody criminal Mandela...Pesky suffragettes. He broke the law, again, admitted it, and pled guilty in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: FFS FFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Smithee said: He broke the law, again, admitted it, and pled guilty in court. That doesn't define political prisoner I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said: That doesn't define political prisoner I'm afraid. Please tell me why he is a political prisoner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: There goes almost every political prisoner in history then. That bloody criminal Mandela...Pesky suffragettes. Wow .......just wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Notts1874 said: Wow .......just wow. Straight back at you...now tell me what you're brain can't comprehend. If you're basing on your opinion on who you agree or disagree with then you're a bigger ***** than TR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: That doesn't define political prisoner I'm afraid. Yeah, that's a crime and he's in jail for it. Feel free to put together a coherent argument any time, right now you're just reinforcing stereotypes and doing your side no favours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Please tell me why he is a political prisoner. To decide who is a political prisoner we have to define what a political prisoner is. It can't be up to the establishment in a particular country to decide, and of course not be based on whether we agree with them politically. In the absence of an accepted definition then, If you believe TR's actions were politically motivated, then you have to consider that he may be a political prisoner. Just saying I hate the ***** doesn't mean his actions were not political and does not mean he's not a political prisoner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Smithee said: Yeah, that's a crime and he's in jail for it. Feel free to put together a coherent argument any time, right now you're just reinforcing stereotypes and doing your side no favours. My side is very much anti racist, anti fascist and anti sectarian. I think we should try not to stereotype people. Clearly you are on another side all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: Straight back at you...now tell me what you're brain can't comprehend. If you're basing on your opinion on who you agree or disagree with then you're a bigger ***** than TR. You seem I nice chap. He broke the law . A law that is in place for good reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 33 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: There goes almost every political prisoner in history then. That bloody criminal Mandela...Pesky suffragettes. My point about Robinson knowing that his acolytes don't understand the law has just been proven! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 32 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: There goes almost every political prisoner in history then. That bloody criminal Mandela...Pesky suffragettes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: To decide who is a political prisoner we have to define what a political prisoner is. It can't be up to the establishment in a particular country to decide, and of course not be based on whether we agree with them politically. In the absence of an accepted definition then, If you believe TR's actions were politically motivated, then you have to consider that he may be a political prisoner. Just saying I hate the ***** doesn't mean his actions were not political and does not mean he's not a political prisoner. He's a criminal prisoner, convicted of crimes that he admitted and pled guilty to. 2 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: My side is very much anti racist, anti fascist and anti sectarian. I think we should try not to stereotype people. Clearly you are on another side all together. Your side is the one that claims he's a political prisoner with nothing to back it up. He broke the law, pled guilty and got sentenced. I won't hold my breath for that coherent argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge of Djoum Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: To decide who is a political prisoner we have to define what a political prisoner is. It can't be up to the establishment in a particular country to decide, and of course not be based on whether we agree with them politically. In the absence of an accepted definition then, If you believe TR's actions were politically motivated, then you have to consider that he may be a political prisoner. Just saying I hate the ***** doesn't mean his actions were not political and does not mean he's not a political prisoner. OK. Bobby Sands. Terrorist or freedom fighter? Nelson Mandela. Terrorist or freedom fighter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Smithee said: He's a criminal prisoner, convicted of crimes that he admitted and pled guilty to. Your side is the one that claims he's a political prisoner with nothing to back it up. He broke the law, pled guilty and got sentenced. I won't hold my breath for that coherent argument. You haven't made an argument at all. Just a lot of stereotypes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, New York Fleapit said: OK. Bobby Sands. Terrorist or freedom fighter? Nelson Mandela. Terrorist or freedom fighter? At last, someone with intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said: My point about Robinson knowing that his acolytes don't understand the law has just been proven! I think you'll find It's a philosophical point not a legal point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, SE16 3LN said: I think you'll find It's a philosophical point not a legal point. No philosophy involved at all. He was warned if he continued acting as he did that he would be up for contempt. That was after being found guilty of contempt on a previous occasion. And he knew exactly what he was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge of Djoum Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: At last, someone with intelligence. I wouldn't go that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.