Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 21 minutes ago, eyesandears said: Ah well there are a few hundred people scattered over the globe now that had a lovely evening in August in Edinburger, Scotchland. Bet most of them couldn't even name our club if you asked them. Best time I have had at Tynecastle in all of 2019. Don't knock it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyesandears Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, Sir Gio said: Best time I have had at Tynecastle in all of 2019. Don't knock it 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 On 10/01/2020 at 20:01, Jambof3tornado said: You are sort of wrong. The concert caused a problem but only in that it prevented certain maintenance from taking place. We wont make the same mistake again. Puzzled at the time this was posted but it maybe fits with the failure to skim theory for the state of the pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 44 minutes ago, gordiegords said: I will find out, All the EPL hybrid pitches look like carpets - I wonder if they all skim the surface prior to the season as standard maintenance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 https://www.southerngroundcare.co.uk/assets/fa--iog-groundsman-guidance-document.pdf Interesting read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 This skimming the pitch (or fraise mowing) is not something I have any recollection of hearing about when the pitch was getting installed or any of the videos or links about hybrid pitches in general. And from a quick Google search it doesn't seem to be mentioned as a regular/annual thing for other clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 It seems very odd when the claim is that these hybrid pitches have much strengthened root zones for nearly the whole root zone to be 'skimmed' each close season. Middlesbrough non-hybrid skimmed 15mm - which appears to be the entire root zone of a hybrid pitch plastic fibres and all. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37008396 https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2016/10/hybrid-football-pitches-why-the-grass-is-always-greener/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 FA recommends 25-30 mm of length during the season Ours looks more like 15-20 mm right now going by those photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordiegords Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said: All the EPL hybrid pitches look like carpets - I wonder if they all skim the surface prior to the season as standard maintenance? they might, as i said, i'll find out and i will post back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, sac said: wrong Explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, kila said: I am curious why the pitch, if skimmed, would have been ready for football come 12th July but a few weeks after that not be in a stable enough state to host a concert on half of it (and that half got ****ed anyway and re-spawned over the last of the summer sun) I was about to post similar, thanks for saving me the effort! I also find the whole skimming/concert theory rather hard to understand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris5115 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 57 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said: All the EPL hybrid pitches look like carpets - I wonder if they all skim the surface prior to the season as standard maintenance? I have been informed that this is standard procedure for Hybrid Pitches every close season. Because of the Concert this was not carried out and this is a major part of the reason the pitch is in this condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Boris5115 said: I have been informed that this is standard procedure for Hybrid Pitches every close season. Because of the Concert this was not carried out and this is a major part of the reason the pitch is in this condition. So IF this is true Ann Budge stonewalled the shareholders at the AGM and was ‘creative’ with the truth - and that’s being diplomatic! Also IF this is true, apologies are due to our greenkeeping staff who have been thrown under a bus by our Chairwoman! Edited January 13, 2020 by Thomaso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Jambof3tornado said: Because we couldnt hold a concert on our football pitch if we went ahead with the actual work required!! Do you know if there is a lag from the time the skimming being done as to when it is considered safe to you use the pitch for other events such as concerts, boxing matches and so on? Or should the new pitch been given say a period of 3 - 5 years of full maintainance and minimal usage before upping the usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said: So if this is true Ann Budge stonewalled the shareholders at the AGM and was ‘creative’ with the truth - and that’s being diplomatic! Also if this is true, apologies are due to our greenkeeping staff who have been thrown under a bus by our Chairwoman! What did she say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, SUTOL said: What did she say? She passed the question about the state of the pitch to another who stated there had been no complaints from opposition teams, it was to be over seeded and it would be sorted by the end of January. At no time did the Club give a reason for the bad state of the pitch and certainly have never stated that a maintenance process was not carried out (if this skimming revelation is true). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettigrewsstylist Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Statement time !!!! Is this why Uche cant stay up?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris5115 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said: So IF this is true Ann Budge stonewalled the shareholders at the AGM and was ‘creative’ with the truth - and that’s being diplomatic! Also IF this is true, apologies are due to our greenkeeping staff who have been thrown under a bus by our Chairwoman! To not follow standard procedure when you spend this amount of money on the produce is absolutely crazy. I'm totally with you on your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobboM Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 This skimming sounds like bullshit to me.The whole point of the hybrid is injecting fibres deep enough to form strong roots. Why, and indeed how, do you "skim" a top layer off without ****ing the whole thing up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, DETTY29 said: Do you know if there is a lag from the time the skimming being done as to when it is considered safe to you use the pitch for other events such as concerts, boxing matches and so on? Or should the new pitch been given say a period of 3 - 5 years of full maintainance and minimal usage before upping the usage. The pitch should be stripped back every season but time constraints, amongst other things( perhaps cost), meant the work was not carried out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, RobboM said: This skimming sounds like bullshit to me.The whole point of the hybrid is injecting fibres deep enough to form strong roots. Why, and indeed how, do you "skim" a top layer off without ****ing the whole thing up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: The pitch should be stripped back every season but time constraints, amongst other things( perhaps cost), meant the work was not carried out. Do you have a source for your information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobboM Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: Fair do's Jambof3Tornado but to be honest if that is all it is then it can't take more than an hour or 2 to complete a pitch. Could have been lined up to get done by close of play on 4 May 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said: Statement time !!!! Is this why Uche cant stay up?? No, its an inner ear balance issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, RobboM said: Fair do's Jambof3Tornado but to be honest if that is all it is then it can't take more than an hour or 2 to complete a pitch. Could have been lined up to get done by close of play on 4 May 🙂 Depends because the machines likely get hired and every bugger wants them at roughly the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: The pitch should be stripped back every season but time constraints, amongst other things( perhaps cost), meant the work was not carried out. Thanks, Still be interesting to know what timescales, lags are before pitch can be used for other events, if at all. However, what is a valid point is that to make a capital investment, you need to be able to support the ongoing costs and not risk ending up making the situation worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris5115 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: The pitch should be stripped back every season but time constraints, amongst other things( perhaps cost), meant the work was not carried out. Nothing to do with cost mate. As I say no point in spending this amount of money if your not going to follow the maintenance procedure. It's like buying a Diesel and sticking Unleaded in it. You know what happens next. Obviously the Concert was more important to the clubs Board of Directors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, DETTY29 said: Thanks, Still be interesting to know what timescales, lags are before pitch can be used for other events, if at all. However, what is a valid point is that to make a capital investment, you need to be able to support the ongoing costs and not risk ending up making the situation worse. I think the bulk of the initial costs were more to do with the below the surface bits and the injection of the fibres. The actual grass part may be the smaller bit costs wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris5115 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, RobboM said: This skimming sounds like bullshit to me.The whole point of the hybrid is injecting fibres deep enough to form strong roots. Why, and indeed how, do you "skim" a top layer off without ****ing the whole thing up? Standard procedure every close season if you want the best out of the investment. Sadly we never followed this and now the pitch is suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettigrewsstylist Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Well, if true, mistakes get made. Real question is ...what now? People are funding this and answers like the ones outlined by Cruiky simply wont quench the masses. Supect plan was say nothing and hope we fix it. Like i say,, what next.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: So a big mother effing scarifier that removes everything off the top layer apart from the 'artificial' strands. The natural grass starts to go through again and alien objects (let's say some moss) is stripped bare. Some reseeding done and the alien objects below the surface that could damage the surface is managed on an ongoing basis. Makes sense. Edited January 13, 2020 by DETTY29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: Interesting video, I'd have thought it'd end up chopping off the top of the synthetic fibres but their purpose is below in the root zone so the above pitch part doesn't matter much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, Boris5115 said: Nothing to do with cost mate. As I say no point in spending this amount of money if your not going to follow the maintenance procedure. It's like buying a Diesel and sticking Unleaded in it. You know what happens next. Obviously the Concert was more important to the clubs Board of Directors. I think the concert was important to sell tynecastle as a venue(not just for concerts) but hope that lessons have been learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, DETTY29 said: So a big mother effing scarifier that removes everything off the top layer apart from the 'articial' strands. The natural grass starts to go through again and alien objects (let's say some moss) is stripped bare. Some reseeding done and the alien objects below the surface that could damage the surface is managed on an ongoing basis. Makes sense. Thatch I think is the organic bits they look to remove. Done at easter road its known to did up used needles and buckfast bottles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris5115 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: I think the concert was important to sell tynecastle as a venue(not just for concerts) but hope that lessons have been learned. I wonder how much money it generated for the club. Guess we will never know tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettigrewsstylist Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: Thatch I think is the organic bits they look to remove. Done at easter road its known to did up used needles and buckfast bottles! And OConnors stash that he cant remember burying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sac Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 22 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: That is not “skimming” That is a procedure called hollow tinining where a machine like the one in the clip removes a core or plug (like removing the core from an apple) but on a large scale as above. The procedure improves ariation & reduces surface compaction & the holes are usually backfilled with a sand based top dressing which is brushed or dragged in to the holes with a mat. can also be done by hand using a hand tiner & sweeping brush for small areas such as your average garden lawn. Maybe our resident groundsperson can confirm if such a procedure would be carried out on our hybrid surface as part of the maintenance programme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Skimming as per non hybrid Middlesbrough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightrope Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/wolverhampton-wanderers-fc/2017/07/24/getting-the-needle-to-be-pitch-perfect-at-wolves/ Looks like there is maintenance skimming at season end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, sac said: That is not “skimming” That is a procedure called hollow tinining where a machine like the one in the clip removes a core or plug (like removing the core from an apple) but on a large scale as above. The procedure improves ariation & reduces surface compaction & the holes are usually backfilled with a sand based top dressing which is brushed or dragged in to the holes with a mat. can also be done by hand using a hand tiner & sweeping brush for small areas such as your average garden lawn. Maybe our resident groundsperson can confirm if such a procedure would be carried out on our hybrid surface as part of the maintenance programme? Its not removing cores mate. Its removing the top surface. Edited January 13, 2020 by Jambof3tornado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, Coco said: Skimming as per non hybrid Middlesbrough So that would work on my own shitty lawns? Skim off top layer, bit of sun, feed and water, rain and hey presto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 How can you skim a hybrid pitch without damaging the fiber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said: How can you skim a hybrid pitch without damaging the fiber The same way you can scarify a lawn without taking up all the grass..... Its magic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, sac said: That is not “skimming” That is a procedure called hollow tinining where a machine like the one in the clip removes a core or plug (like removing the core from an apple) but on a large scale as above. The procedure improves ariation & reduces surface compaction & the holes are usually backfilled with a sand based top dressing which is brushed or dragged in to the holes with a mat. can also be done by hand using a hand tiner & sweeping brush for small areas such as your average garden lawn. Maybe our resident groundsperson can confirm if such a procedure would be carried out on our hybrid surface as part of the maintenance programme? With respect I do not think it is hollow tining as it doesn’t look like cores being ejected from the surface. It looks more like scarifying where old grass is ripped from the surface leaving comb type marks. Clarification from an expert would be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 51 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said: Its not removing cores mate. Its removing the top surface. Just seen this - that was what I thought it looked like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 45 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said: How can you skim a hybrid pitch without damaging the fiber It rips out the dead/old grass on the surface and leaves the fibres and root system in place - thus allowing new healthier grass to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Jings, this is all getting technical. 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, Cruickshank for Scotland said: It rips out the dead/old grass on the surface and leaves the fibres and root system in place - thus allowing new healthier grass to grow. Not according to that article about Wolves further up, they spend a six figure amount every year to get the big basturd machines in to restitch the fibres. Wolves did a major renovation in 2010, and this time the work is purely on maintaining a high-quality playing surface – costing a six-figure sum. “It’s in the hundreds of thousands. If you have a full construction with the undersoil heating and the drainage, you can be looking at £1million or more,” said Lumbard. “We haven’t spent that as we did our major work back in 2010 – we had all drainage brand new, everything from the foundations to the grass on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, graygo said: Not according to that article about Wolves further up, they spend a six figure amount every year to get the big basturd machines in to restitch the fibres. Wolves did a major renovation in 2010, and this time the work is purely on maintaining a high-quality playing surface – costing a six-figure sum. “It’s in the hundreds of thousands. If you have a full construction with the undersoil heating and the drainage, you can be looking at £1million or more,” said Lumbard. “We haven’t spent that as we did our major work back in 2010 – we had all drainage brand new, everything from the foundations to the grass on top. That’s not what it said in the article attached to your post - can you send the bit where it states they restitch the fibres every year - cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex member of the SaS Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Ok no lawn expert but I was under the impression the hybrid pitch has plastic fibers sticking out of the ground ( like a synthetic pitch but with real grass growing through between the plastic stalks) . Was it not mentioned when laid that they cut it once to a certain ( desired ) length and obviously the plastic would stay that long and the grass would grow to whatever length you then decide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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