Craig Levein: A Psychological Explanation

[Escobar PHM]

1 minute ago, Morph said:

That’s not Budges job though. 

 

Budge has been pretty open that she leaves footballing matters to Levein.  I think you’re probably right that she was seething and I reckon she forced Levein into the job to sort the mess out.  However I don’t think it’s her job to have the foresight that Cathro would struggle, that falls on Levein.  He’s managed to get away with it though, all the blame lies with Cathro and he’s taken no responsibility for it. 

And theres the problem having an owner with not much experience of quite a lot of football related stuff. It was however a major club decision and as the custodian of the club it was up to her to ask questions of the DOF about the appointment and possibly the alternatives to taking such a risk. Perhaps he just pulled the wool over her eyes and she just trusted it without realising the risk we were being exposed to.

 

Bet she doesn't let that happen twice !! #Learning curve

[Escobar PHM]

4 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

By taking the job to fix it hes surely taking responsibility. Or you mean he should have fallen on his sword?

 

Just admit that you and a few others on here will not be happy until hes gone. 

 

 

I have no trouble admitting I want him gone. No shame in it. I don't think he's the right man. Never wanted him appointed in anything other than a token figurehead role from day 1.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Morph]

14 minutes ago, Morph said:

Yeah they worked together a while ago though, when Cathro was even younger than he was when he joined hearts. 

 

I didnt realise Levein wanted him at Hearts prior to him being appointed head coach though.  Sort of makes it even worse  

 

I’m of the opinion Levein had to go when Cathro was left to take the blame for the entire transfer saga.  Levein either helped him sign these players or he sat back as someone who didn’t have a clue what he was doing was just signing anyone who had a “big” team on their CV.  

 

I hate the argument that levein doesn’t have a midfield either.  Aye of course he doesn’t, he sacked the manager in pre season and took about 3 weeks of crucial transfer time to finally pick himself as manager leaving only time to sneak in marquee midfielder Ross Callachan.  

 

2 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

By taking the job to fix it hes surely taking responsibility. Or you mean he should have fallen on his sword?

 

Just admit that you and a few others on here will not be happy until hes gone. 

 

 

Great job detective. 

 

There was no reason Cathro should’ve been given the job in the first place other than Levein had his mind set on his pal from back in the day would turn out to be this great pioneer of modern football.  But he was a dud. 

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, Morph said:

 

Great job detective. 

 

There was no reason Cathro should’ve been given the job in the first place other than Levein had his mind set on his pal from back in the day would turn out to be this great pioneer of modern football.  But he was a dud. 

 

Just now, Escobar PHM said:

I have no trouble admitting I want him gone. No shame in it. I don't think he's the right man. Never wanted him appointed in anything other than a token figurehead role from day 1.

 

Hindsight is great but noone gets everything right 100% of the time, its called REAL LIFE. Do you get everything right Morgan?And when you dont do you completely remove yourself from the situation rather than stick around and fix it?

 

 Yes people didnt want Cathro but ffs they had a 50/50 chance of getting that right.

 

Clearly you didnt and you now let that colour your judgement re Hearts and Levein.  Its pretty pathetic stuff from you and others. 

 

DC Jenkins.

[Escobar PHM]

4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Interesting point. I  wondered why we never fought to keep him but go down a new coach AND team rebuild route in mid season. But then I did always think CL came across as bitter that Robbie left the way he did , so not sure.

We should have held Neilson to contract till the end of that season. Letting him go in the league position we were in was contrary to our best interests. I think he was starting to get a bit bogged down and the vultures were circling and the cracks starting to show but letting him go mid season was wrong.

[Morph]

3 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

And theres the problem having an owner with not much experience of quite a lot of football related stuff. It was however a major club decision and as the custodian of the club it was up to her to ask questions of the DOF about the appointment and possibly the alternatives to taking such a risk. Perhaps he just pulled the wool over her eyes and she just trusted it without realising the risk we were being exposed to.

 

Bet she doesn't let that happen twice !! #Learning curve

I think we were all just taken in by his previous jobs and the calibre of teams he’s worked at.  He also had a very good reputation in Scottish football in the roles he had done here.  

 

Ill admit I backed him longer than I probably should’ve and wanted him to be a success desperately.  It’s Leveins job to see past that though and make the decision on whether Hearts is the right club for this guy to have his first crack at and he got it majorly wrong.  The impact of that has cost us massively this season and looks like it will next season too.  Constantly just a team rebuilding and in transition. 

 

I dont agree with everything Budge has done but she’s come in with no clue how to run a football team and been open about that so I’ll give her credit for that.  I think in the end she will ultimately have the bollocks to get rid of him if he continues the way he does but it will take more than 2 seasons for her to finally lose it with him I think.  

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, Morph said:

I think we were all just taken in by his previous jobs and the calibre of teams he’s worked at.  He also had a very good reputation in Scottish football in the roles he had done here.  

 

Ill admit I backed him longer than I probably should’ve and wanted him to be a success desperately.  It’s Leveins job to see past that though and make the decision on whether Hearts is the right club for this guy to have his first crack at and he got it majorly wrong.  The impact of that has cost us massively this season and looks like it will next season too.  Constantly just a team rebuilding and in transition. 

 

I dont agree with everything Budge has done but she’s come in with no clue how to run a football team and been open about that so I’ll give her credit for that.  I think in the end she will ultimately have the bollocks to get rid of him if he continues the way he does but it will take more than 2 seasons for her to finally lose it with him I think.  

 

Massively next season? Have we finished preparing for next season? See this is the kind of bullshit that annoys people on here.

[Morph]

1 minute ago, BobbyJenkins said:

 

 

Hindsight is great but noone gets everything right 100% of the time, its called REAL LIFE. Do you get everything right Morgan?And when you dont do you completely remove yourself from the situation rather than stick around and fix it?

 

 Yes people didnt want Cathro but ffs they had a 50/50 chance of getting that right.

 

Clearly you didnt and you now let that colour your judgement re Hearts and Levein.  Its pretty pathetic stuff from you and others. 

 

DC Jenkins.

Ah fair enough.  Levein shouldn’t be held responsible for his decisions because it’s 50/50 and not everyone gets everything right. 

 

 

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, Morph said:

Ah fair enough.  Levein shouldn’t be held responsible for his decisions because it’s 50/50 and not everyone gets everything right. 

 

 

Woosh, you clearly dont have the ability to comprehend...try engaging brain. Back to one of the points what does 'being held responsible for' mean to you?  One decision and hes to get sacked....lo ****ing l.

 

And dont start wi the signing players pish either. Youre a banana mate.

 

 

 

[Escobar PHM]

9 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

 

Massively next season? Have we finished preparing for next season? See this is the kind of bullshit that annoys people on here.

The Cathro factor that was there to some extent this season ( not to the extent that a lot of people said it was) has gone now. None of his players are in the picture anymore and only a couple signed whilst he was here are still here.

 

Levein is completely exposed now. No excuses. No one to blame. Some say he deserves that chance. Personally I think we should have got rid. He has failed as DOF and he has failed as a head coach this season IMO. I sincerely want him to succeed. If he doesn't succeed I want him gone and I want the next guy to succeed. At the end of the day I don't care who's managing the team as long as they're competing strongly at the top end of the table.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Morph]

One bad decision from Levein

 

Wish I had the same maroon tinted specs as you 

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, Escobar PHM said:

The Cathro factor that was there to some extent this season ( not to the extent that a lot of people said it was) has gone now. None of his players are in the picture anymore and only a couple signed whilst he was here are still here.

 

Levein is completely exposed now. No excuses. No one to blame. Some say he deserves that chance. Personally I think we should have got rid. I sincerely want him to succeed. If he doesn't succeed I want him gone and I want the next guy to succeed. At the end of the day I don't care who's managing the team as long as they're winning.

Said it before and say it again, football fortunes can and do change very quickly. 

 

Second part, you are right so do we need to keep going on and on about it? If he doesnt succeed I want him gone too, but there is no denying he has not had 100% as a manager yet i.e. transfer windows etc. 

[BobbyJenkins]

3 minutes ago, Morph said:

One bad decision from Levein

 

Wish I had the same maroon tinted specs as you 

Are you purposely being dense? No credit for the successes then? They dont matter of course cos your a short term stinker thinker boyo. I know its a long game and we'll get there.  Nothing to do with maroon specs, not everyone has the capacity to think beyond the end of their nose, thankfully many on here do.  I hope you enjoy it when we do succeed, in no small part to Craig Levein. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by BobbyJenkins

[Escobar PHM]

14 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

Said it before and say it again, football fortunes can and do change very quickly. 

 

Second part, you are right so do we need to keep going on and on about it? If he doesnt succeed I want him gone too, but there is no denying he has not had 100% as a manager yet i.e. transfer windows etc. 

Yes they do, and a few quality signings and a bit more adventure and bravery (especially against lesser teams away from home) would go a long way towards making things better. I'd like to see him give 100% back in exchange for getting 100%. I think he can actually do better than he did this season. It think he is capable of more but things he'll be reluctant to change will have to change.

 

If you don't want to keep going on about it all summer ( and its the topic of the summer like it or not) then stay away from threads with the word 'Levein' in the title because they are all going to be similar in content and they'll only stop if and when Levein shuts everybody up, or gets shown the door (and neither of those will happen until late September at the earliest)

Edited April 25, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Morph]

12 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

Are you purposely being dense? No credit for the successes then? They dont matter of course cos your a short term stinker thinker boyo. I know its a long game and we'll get there,.  Not everyone has the capacity to think beyond the end of their nose, thankfully many on here do.  I hope you enjoy it when we do succeed, in no small part to Craig Levein. 

What success?  The championship?  I’ve always given and Levein and Neilson credit for that and the way the club bounced back.  I’ve always given Levein credit for seemingly turning the academy completely on its arse too. 

 

Thats about it though.  

 

We’re winning **** all with Levein and his style of football in this league though  so I doubt any of us will have much to shout about for as long as he’s around. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Morph

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, Escobar PHM said:

Yes they do, and a few quality signings and a bit more adventure and bravery (especially against lesser teams away from home) would go a long way towards making things better. I'd like to see him give 100% back in exchange for getting 100%. I think he can actually do better than he did this season but things he'll be reluctant to change will have to change.

 

If you don't want to keep going on about it all summer ( and its the topic of the summer like it or not) then stay away from threads with the word 'Levein' in the title because they are all going to be similar in content and they'll only stop now if and when Levein shuts everybody up, or gets shown the door (and that's not going to be until late September at the earliest)

 

Your last part seems bonkers to me cos its just not happening, rather focus my energies being positive but I suppose thats a personal choice. Why is it the focus of the summer if he aint going anywhere? And no danger am I staying off and just letting pish get talked/typed. My pish only   The constant negativity irritates me because it does affect the perception of the club (minimally) and Hearts fans re the club, media need no help in putting the boot in. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies in that respect.

 

 

[BobbyJenkins]

1 minute ago, Morph said:

What success?  The championship?  I’ve always given and Levein and Neilson credit for that and the way the club bounced back.  I’ve always given Levein credit for seemingly turning the academy completely on its arse too. 

 

Thats about it though.  

 

We’re winning **** all with Levein and his style of football so I doubt any of us will have much to shout about for as long as he’s around. 

 

Are we no? I have no idea cos Im a no a psychic.  Time will tell Morph but in the mean time hes going nowhere, so best suck it up buttercup.

[Gizmo]

14 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Jesus Christ. So now we're taking comfort in narrow (on the scoreboard) defeats after playing to lose almost the entire match? Unreal. 

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

14 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I'm sorry. WTF? 

 

IT'S THEIR JOB. 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

10 hours ago, rudi must stay said:

I think Shaun may be onto something. Excellent manager who hasn't had the breaks, you can factor in the Spain game for Scotland too (3-0 down, they get to 3-3, 1 minute later it's 4-3 Spain). The sparks gone out in him, he never had it from day 1 IMO and I do think he was forced forward by Ann Budge. I have a feeling he'll be upstairs by the end of the season

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

[Escobar PHM]

Just now, BobbyJenkins said:

 

  The constant negativity irritates me because it does affect the perception of the club (minimally) and Hearts fans re the club, media need no help in putting the boot in. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies in that respect.

 

 

When you finish 6th in this god-awful league and you've caused a lot of the issues yourself through tactical conservatism and poor signings etc etc, you're going to attract negativity and theres only one way to wash it away.

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, Escobar PHM said:

When you finish 6th in this god-awful league and you've caused a lot of the issues yourself through tactical conservatism and poor signings etc etc, you're going to attract negativity and theres only one way to wash it away.

 

 

I think theres more context and nuance to it than you, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[sadj]

5 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

??

[BobbyJenkins]

6 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

Fantastic post, agree 100%.

[Morph]

9 minutes ago, Barack said:

Are you renewing this year, Morph?

Not sure yet, I’m thinking about it. 

 

It depends if the guy I sit with wants to go back too. 

 

I suppose I’m finding it hard to justify going back with the jump up in price, that will happen again.  Hopefully I can get back. 

[davemclaren]

35 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

At the end of the day I don't care who's managing the team as long as they're competing strongly at the top end of the table.

Hopefully we all agree with that. 

[rudi must stay]

54 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

 

As I say I reckon Levein was pushed into the job by Ann Budge (not the way to run a club by the way). I believe there's good and bad about AB. He's shown strength, people still talk about the 4-6-0 5 years on but there he is every Saturday in the dugout, but I believe football moves on and while Levein was out of management it has significantly. You need to be alot more media savvy now, that's a major failing thus far, and saying his new striker can't run doesn't help his case. But the good thing with Hearts IMO is make a few signings that work and things fall into place...

[Haken]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

On the money.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

 

What the wee guy below said.

 

[Beast Boy]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

Who is taking comfort? Results are results and I explained clearly why we were improving, based on our home form, and why we our deficiencies are much more obvious away from home. We may have played badly but we didn't play to lose. It was, however, a dead rubber. You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it unlike mine which took yours apart, hence your nit-picking rather than rebutting any of the substantive points I made. 
 

Perhaps they all bought into an approach that Cathro brought in and felt it was working from whatever metrics that particular system used. Cathro was, rightly or wrongly, trying to modernise/change the approach from running up Gullane beach till you puke old-school style. Being pedestrian in matches doesn't necessarily equate to fitness anyway, it's far more complex than that. To suggest that it would be obvious immediately without taking into consideration the other factors that come into play, is ridiculous. Often fitness issues may only show half way through a season when over-trained players can break down or players who missed a bit of pre-season start struggling for form as the edge comes off their game. 

Or since you like a bit of shouting IT MIGHT BE THEIR JOB IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL GET IT ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.  
 

Onto what? You either capitulate from what life throws at you or you find more strength from adversity. If the slim margins of fate had wrecked Levein surely he would have left football altogether.

 It doesn't take a certificate in psychology bought from an online University to spot that a lot of the best managers were not necessarily top players by any means nor all sitting at home with a cabinet stuffed full of medals.

Again, Shaun's simplistic viewpoint will play to the gallery of people who have already made their minds up, but it most certainly isn't a nuanced opinion piece. It's almost beyond parody, frankly. 

However, as I said at the end of my reply previously, we will certainly see who is right next season and for me the same question as you have does apply - ie does he have the fire in his belly (we saw brief sparks this season at times but that perhaps was dampened by exasperation on his part at the some of the players he has to work with). If he does have it, we should do fine. If he doesn't, well people will get what they want, validation of their opinion and CLs exit. 

 

 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

20 hours ago, Heart of the Matter said:

I enjoyed your post Shaun, but I don't agree that CL is necessarily risk averse in the way you conclude.

 

A risk averse DoF would not have recruited Ian Cathro to take charge of the club, given his complete lack of any experience of football management.  That was a huge gamble.

 

A risk averse manager wouldn't play 16 and 17 year-old newbies like Cochrane, McDonald, Brandon and others so early and so regularly in their careers.  It's less risky to select experienced pros, like Cowie and Bauben.

 

He has, in the past, signed players like Ricardo Fuller, and JL Valois who were exciting, off-the-cuff type footballers.  Signed some dross too, it has to be said.

 

I liked your 'amateur psychology' but, instead of being risk averse, I get the feeling that Craig Levein has turned into a systems thinker (maybe not not in the same way as Cathro is) and rigid adherence to systems can suppress creativity, kill flair and stop players expressing themselves and taking risks.

 

 

 

Great post. Enjoyed it. Last para struck a chord with me. Been perplexed since first season back up why runners like Reilly and King didn't get longer runs in the team. Always suspected it was because they weren't following positional instructions enough and playing off the cuff. Good to see there's a phrase for that kind of thing. 

[shaun.lawson]

6 hours ago, Erik said:

At a risk of going off on a massive tangent, having seen the post Shaun made about attending most of his games during 96-00....... that kinda confused me a bit.

 

Perhaps my memory is skewed a bit, and forgive me if i'm wrong Shaun, but was there not a big deal made on here maybe around 2009-10 when Shaun made his first trip to Tynecastle or something?!?

 

Like I say, maybe my mind is playing tricks on me - but I'm fairly sure I remember at the time a pretty big deal of it being made on here.

 

No. There was a big deal made because it was my first trip to Tynecastle... for a while. I'd become quite the, for want of a better term, celebrity on here around that time, was posting more and more, but didn't get to any games in 2008/9. So a fuss was made when I came up to the Zagreb game.

 

I think that's where the "Lawson's only been to two Hearts games in his life!" stuff comes from. Basically, before 2008 or so, hardly anyone knew who I was on here. A few years back, I remember you yourself suggesting I liked Hibs as much as Hearts purely because I'd posted on hibs.net for a while. As a Hearts fan. 

 

But the thing about the internet is: once a myth develops, the truth doesn't matter to many people any longer. As we even see in politics nowadays. 

[Beast Boy]

12 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Great post. Enjoyed it. Last para struck a chord with me. Been perplexed since first season back up why runners like Reilly and King didn't get longer runs in the team. Always suspected it was because they weren't following positional instructions enough and playing off the cuff. Good to see there's a phrase for that kind of thing. 

 

Surely it’s obvious that Billy King isn’t good enough by now? 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 minute ago, Bez said:

 

Surely it’s obvious that Billy King isn’t good enough by now? 

 

Maybe. All down to personal opinion I suppose. But if fans are allowed or even expected to think Mulraney is a promising guy worth taking a punt on, surely I'm fine thinking it was worth trying to develop King further. 

[Gizmo]

56 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

But the thing about the internet is: once a myth develops, the truth doesn't matter to many people any longer. As we even see in politics nowadays. 

You do get you've just contributed to an existing myth with your amateur psych evaluation based on nothing more than innuendo and joining a few disparate dots...whilst completely missing the evidence of a resilient, reliable defence and a stubborn home record, both which completely undermine your argument?

No point bleating about being on the wrong side of that which you indulge in yourself.   

[Beast Boy]

48 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Maybe. All down to personal opinion I suppose. But if fans are allowed or even expected to think Mulraney is a promising guy worth taking a punt on, surely I'm fine thinking it was worth trying to develop King further. 

 

To be fair, it’s been the personal opinion of Hearts and Rangers so far, and as far as I’ve seen or read, he’s not exactly been a revelation at Inverness or Dundee United either.

[Boris]

4 hours ago, Escobar PHM said:

I imagine that's why we didn't fight very hard to keep Neilson. CL saw the opportunity to get Cathro in. Cathro was open to it. What an almighty error. Bordering on sackable misjudgement IMO

 

In retrospect, yes it was an almighty error.

 

Before we gave him his break, weren't Rangers supposed to be interested in the Wunderkid?  If only...

 

Sackable misjudgment?  Nah.  Any appointment is a gamble, and despite our best wishes for it to succeed it simply didn't.

 

The biggest error was not emptying him sooner i.e. end of last season.  That's the most glaring error in my book.

[Escobar PHM]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

In retrospect, yes it was an almighty error.

 

Before we gave him his break, weren't Rangers supposed to be interested in the Wunderkid?  If only...

 

Sackable misjudgment?  Nah.  Any appointment is a gamble, and despite our best wishes for it to succeed it simply didn't.

 

The biggest error was not emptying him sooner i.e. end of last season.  That's the most glaring error in my book.

Only in the respect that we didn't have to gamble to that extent at that time. Could have got Levein to do it to the end of the season or got a caretaker to the end of the season or just appointed someone with a bit of experience.

Water under the bridge now. An experiment that thankfully wont be repeated I'd assume

He certainly should never have been allowed anywhere near the summer and pre-season.

[jock _turd]

Lets get tony Mowbray in now ... absolute cert league and cup double!

 

AND as to CL getting Cathro in being a sackable misjudgement.... I can well remember how many on here were absolutely drooling at the thought of getting Cathro at the helm well before he was appointed... you just cannot please some people! We do get him then he is so pish he is binned and then CL is forced to take over saves us from a possible relegation battle in the bottom half and now he has to go too and all because Hibs are above us in the league  

That is the issue... if Hibs were in the bottom half things would not be nearly as bad

[BobbyJenkins]

5 minutes ago, jock _turd said:

Lets get tony Mowbray in now ... absolute cert league and cup double!

 

AND as to CL getting Cathro in being a sackable misjudgement.... I can well remember how many on here were absolutely drooling at the thought of getting Cathro at the helm well before he was appointed... you just cannot please some people! We do get him then he is so pish he is binned and then CL is forced to take over saves us from a possible relegation battle in the bottom half and now he has to go too and all because Hibs are above us in the league  

That is the issue... if Hibs were in the bottom half things would not be nearly as bad

It’s mental eh. 

[@VladMagic]

29 minutes ago, jock _turd said:

Lets get tony Mowbray in now ... absolute cert league and cup double!

 

AND as to CL getting Cathro in being a sackable misjudgement.... I can well remember how many on here were absolutely drooling at the thought of getting Cathro at the helm well before he was appointed... you just cannot please some people! We do get him then he is so pish he is binned and then CL is forced to take over saves us from a possible relegation battle in the bottom half and now he has to go too and all because Hibs are above us in the league  

That is the issue... if Hibs were in the bottom half things would not be nearly as bad

 

A lot of truths in there.

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, VladMagic said:

 

A lot of truths in there.

Yup a lot.....

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Bez said:

 

Surely it’s obvious that Billy King isn’t good enough by now? 

It's not often we agree but I agree with this. I remember watching him in a friendly at Preston a couple of years ago and he was hopeless. He lasted a few months before he was punted on loan for the rest of that season.

[Morph]

Folk were excited at the thought of Cathro that’s true.  But we’re football fans and we aren’t running the football side of things at hearts. 

 

It’s his job to make sure managers are up to the task.  Especially in a situation where he’s never managed before.  He quite clearly didn’t do his homework on Cathro and appointed him purely based on his reputation and friendship as Cathro never showed an ounce of managerial knowledge that you’d expect from even a bottom end club. 

 

Its worth remembering Cathro didn’t take over when everything was all roses and perfect, so to put a guy in that situation who didn’t have the slightest clue what he was doing is ridiculous. 

 

Craig levein might be attempting to fix the problem, but it’s one he created through poor decision making and lack of research.  Something that seems to be a common theme throughout our transfer policy too funnily enough. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Morph

[shaun.lawson]

 

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

You do get you've just contributed to an existing myth with your amateur psych evaluation based on nothing more than innuendo and joining a few disparate dots

 

Pardon?

 

Exactly what in what I set out in the OP was a 'myth'? Has he not gone through that extraordinary run of disappointments? Has he won anything as a manager or a player? 

 

Exactly what in him setting up as he did on Sunday was a 'myth'? Exactly what in our failure to win a single match from behind all season is a 'myth'? And exactly what about this graph from early March is a 'myth'?

 

 

At that point, Hearts, with the fourth biggest budget in the division, had the lowest expected number of goals from open play of any team in the entire league. 

 

Myth? Myth? No. It's fact. And before people say "but we haven't got the players to do anything else!", (1) Kilmarnock were bottom of the league before Clarke came in; (2) Hibs were in a lower division only last season; (3) Even the clubs in the bottom six have scored more goals from open play from us (as of early March, at least); (4) As Sporting Director, Levein had plenty of responsibility for the players who've been brought in. 

 

Watching us on Sunday was to watch a football match with our own eyes, and to be appalled at what we saw. Not because we lost, but because of how we approached the game. And how we approached the game was in line with how the manager approaches many away games; and also in line with our pathetic season in general. Negative, negative, negative - not the Hearts fans who rightly expect a whole lot better, but the manager himself.

Edited April 25, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[Morph]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

Pardon?

 

Exactly what in what I set out in the OP was a 'myth'? Has he not gone through that extraordinary run of disappointments? Has he won anything as a manager or a player? 

 

Exactly what in him setting up as he did on Sunday was a 'myth'? Exactly what in our failure to win a single match from behind all season is a 'myth'? And exactly what about this graph from early March is a 'myth'?

 

 

At that point, Hearts, with the fourth biggest budget in the division, had the lowest number of goals from open play of any team in the entire league. 

 

Myth? Myth? No. It's fact. And before people say "but we haven't got the players to do anything else!", (1) Kilmarnock were bottom of the league before Clarke came in; (2) Hibs were in a lower division only last season; (3) Even the clubs in the bottom six have scored more goals from open play from us (as of early March, at least); (4) As Sporting Director, Levein had plenty of responsibility for the players who've been brought in. 

 

Watching us on Sunday was to watch a football match with our own eyes, and to be appalled at what we saw. Not because we lost, but because of how we approached the game. And how we approached the game was in line with how the manager approaches many away games; and also in line with our pathetic season in general. Negative, negative, negative - not the Hearts fans who rightly expect a whole lot better, but the manager himself.

It’s pretty ridiculous that hibs are excelling way beyond where we’re at right now and we’ve been up 2 seasons longer than them. 

 

Think we’re in for a shock next season when we sign some midfield players and we’re not romping home to second. 

[BobbyJenkins]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

Pardon?

 

Exactly what in what I set out in the OP was a 'myth'? Has he not gone through that extraordinary run of disappointments? Has he won anything as a manager or a player? 

 

Exactly what in him setting up as he did on Sunday was a 'myth'? Exactly what in our failure to win a single match from behind all season is a 'myth'? And exactly what about this graph from early March is a 'myth'?

 

 

At that point, Hearts, with the fourth biggest budget in the division, had the lowest number of goals from open play of any team in the entire league. 

 

Myth? Myth? No. It's fact. And before people say "but we haven't got the players to do anything else!", (1) Kilmarnock were bottom of the league before Clarke came in; (2) Hibs were in a lower division only last season; (3) Even the clubs in the bottom six have scored more goals from open play from us (as of early March, at least); (4) As Sporting Director, Levein had plenty of responsibility for the players who've been brought in. 

 

Watching us on Sunday was to watch a football match with our own eyes, and to be appalled at what we saw. Not because we lost, but because of how we approached the game. And how we approached the game was in line with how the manager approaches many away games; and also in line with our pathetic season in general. Negative, negative, negative - not the Hearts fans who rightly expect a whole lot better, but the manager himself.

I’ll keep keep it short before I put you on ignore. Context.

[shaun.lawson]

4 hours ago, Gizmo said:

You sooked up to another poster with an expansive reply, like mine, simply because you agreed with it

 

Wrong. I disagreed with it in most areas (can you no longer read, or something?). But appreciating a good post with an argument very different to my own is "sooking up" now? No wonder this place is such a madhouse at times. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[shaun.lawson]

9 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

I’ll keep keep it short before I put you on ignore. Context.

 

The context is that we have a worse squad in terms of creativity than any others in the league? Worse than Partick Thistle? Worse than Ross County? Worse than Kilmarnock before they got a positive manager in who has worked wonders with them? Worse than the Hamilton Accies Javelin Throwing team?

 

Is this shit for real? And if, in the parallel universe which some seem to inhabit, it is... who was the Sporting Director who helped assemble this squad?

Edited April 25, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

9 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

Pardon?

 

Exactly what in what I set out in the OP was a 'myth'? Has he not gone through that extraordinary run of disappointments? Has he won anything as a manager or a player? 

 

Exactly what in him setting up as he did on Sunday was a 'myth'? Exactly what in our failure to win a single match from behind all season is a 'myth'? And exactly what about this graph from early March is a 'myth'?

 

 

At that point, Hearts, with the fourth biggest budget in the division, had the lowest number of goals from open play of any team in the entire league. 

 

Myth? Myth? No. It's fact. And before people say "but we haven't got the players to do anything else!", (1) Kilmarnock were bottom of the league before Clarke came in; (2) Hibs were in a lower division only last season; (3) Even the clubs in the bottom six have scored more goals from open play from us (as of early March, at least); (4) As Sporting Director, Levein had plenty of responsibility for the players who've been brought in. 

 

Watching us on Sunday was to watch a football match with our own eyes, and to be appalled at what we saw. Not because we lost, but because of how we approached the game. And how we approached the game was in line with how the manager approaches many away games; and also in line with our pathetic season in general. Negative, negative, negative - not the Hearts fans who rightly expect a whole lot better, but the manager himself.

 

Great post. One thing though, that chart seems to be expected goals, rather than goals from open play. Is that what you meant? Anyway, either way, it's absolutely shocking but not all surprising.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Great post. One thing though, that chart seems to be expected goals, rather than goals from open play. Is that what you meant? Anyway, either way, it's absolutely shocking but not all surprising.

 

Yes, that's right.  What an atrocious state of affairs, even so. 

[jock _turd]

7 minutes ago, Morph said:

Its worth remembering Cathro didn’t take over when everything was all roses and perfect, so to put a guy in that situation who didn’t have the slightest clue what he was doing is ridiculous. 

 

Sorry Bud but I am either misinterpreting or this statement is not totally factual and you are at it or not a Hearts fan. Cathro took over the team when they were second, although some like to say third or even fourth, in the division. In short  Robbie had the nouse to have that team that close to the top.... Cathro took over and the went down like they were carrying a bag of cement each!