Craig Levein: A Psychological Explanation

[sadj]

9 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Shaun - I hadn't read many of your posts before, obviously you have been on this forum a long time, a lot longer than me personally, but I want to debate the point that you make and for a few specific reasons

 

I emigrated last year to the other side of the planet hence joining this forum - I had my ST and went to a lot of away games as well, week in week out. I obviously had heard of kickback but when I was going to the games didn't have the desire to join at the time, as I was seeing what was happening week in week out. I personally have become addicted to this place as its hard enough moving away from friends and family without missing my beloved club and the games week in, week out. Desperately trying to find streams to games every week - getting up at 3am in the mornings, sweating that I cant pick up a decent stream to each game without it crashing, its a mental torture in all honesty. However, its good reading different points of view and having reasoned debate and hearing good points being raised and only by being on here

 

For me there is 4 groups on this forum. I think a lot of supporters have an emotional tie to CL, in the sense that and we all know that he was probably one of the finest players ever to grace the maroon in a generation, so when you see any personal attacks from poster to poster, this normally comes about when you see any personal attacks on the man himself, which rightly or wrongly is understandable. These same posters will defend him through thick and thin, and again, who can blame them - he is a hearts legend and that will never change. The opposite end is you then have posters who just don't want or like him managing the club because of a perceived attitude that CL has to games in the sense that they think he sets us up, primarily not to lose rather than win - In their eyes, he is far to conservative because of a perceived attitude toward the game in general. Then you have those that want him to get the summer, get the necessary players in and make a decision after this point and depending on how well we do going into next season, and thinking that we are sacrificing short term success for long term success. The final group like to come on and stir shite whenever they can and they have as much affiliation to Hearts as most of us do to Neil Lennon's arse - unfortunately. However, and excluding the unfortunates group, out of                 Group A Stay           Group B/ Go         Group C/ Give him the summer                         who is actually right? - History may tell us, anything else is speculation at this point in time

 

The first point is that your theory, and definitely interesting in parts, has a preclusion that CL life and actual events has formed or shaped his thinking or tactical beliefs within the game. He has had a lot of hardship , for sure, and yes - you are right in the sense that mentally this could have affected him as it could have affected us all - but this is based on your theory right? - My Uncle, who played football, knew CL very very well - he didn't particularly like him as a person but respected him for his decisiveness and not being swayed by what others thought - Brings me back to the point - people who are scarred or scared of the future will tend to lean on others for opinions as they have formed self doubt, as my Uncle said to me, this never happened with Levein - he was the exact opposite. Point 2 - You mentioned his management career to date - Hearts twice, Dundee Utd, Leicester and Scotland - This doesn't sound like someone who is inhibited or mentally has been affected by fear - Takes a lot of guts and ambition to keep progressing like this even when you are taking knocks along the way - again, doesn't appear that inhibition is in play. Point 3, and for me the key point is this - CL has and always has been a high level thinker in the game and even before the actual events which shaped his life - If he had tasted the personal success in his playing career or won a trophy in his management career would he think differently than he does now ? - I think in all honesty, the answer is no - he wouldn't  - Taking a National Side is different from building a club structure within a club side so I understand to a degree what happened in his time with Scotland, mistakes happened, but something different happened within his time with the club sides, exc Leicester and for the reasons that I gave  

 

Finally, and going back to the groups of posters I'm in the give him the summer camp - A lot of posters think this is a mentally deranged thought process and who can blame them given our recent performances - I can understand completely. One of the key things about CL for me is this, he isn't the type of manager you can hand a bunch of players to and will get the best out of them immediately. I see him as more of a builder, a strategic thinker, where he builds up his team through time - selecting the right type of players to do the job. This is probably one of the annoyances at the moment with signings - we are already 2 signings, possibly 3 in, Mclean, Mulraney and Oochy (spelling is terrible) and we are now doomed in a lot of peoples eyes. I remember when Valois, De Vries and Fuller were signed - No one even knew who they were - plucked from obscurity and look what happened. I'm not going to argue out who's team it was, who signed the players etc - and under Robbie/Cathro - that's been and gone. I'm judging Levein solely on the signings which he has made and since Christmas and not before and to date they have been good, all be it Danny needs to improve but may just need a good pre season. Don't get me wrong, my one overall criticism with CL is that he may overthink things at times, take more risks etc, but you could also argue that people don't think things through enough - argument goes both ways

 

As you alluded to with your post and when he was given time with Hearts, first time round, and Utd look what he left in place?. A structure from top to bottom that was built to be taken forward - By rights, I think that was the problem at Leicester - English football these days is get it right immediately or you are out - unfortunately he couldn't do it quickly enough - This isn't CL's game - Anyone who thinks he will bring instant success needs their own head read - If you look at the history and the facts, everything successful that he built in the past points toward the fact that he doesn't do it overnight, but that it takes time,  but his track record with us (1st time round) is that he can, and if given time he will. These are facts and I personally would rather follow the facts than some physiological theory that his life conditioning has affected him in some adverse way and this is impacting on our performances on the field. Yes, we cant wait forever on us improving and i'm sure it is getting to cometh the hour, cometh the man type stuff, and if our performances and results don't improve he has to make way, and quickly. We are key players short in parts of the team and he needs to bring these players in.

 

I'm just concerned currently that due to the desire for immediate and improved success and watching our verministic friends gain a wee bit of short term success in the same period that we see this as an ideal time to see fit to pull the trigger on our own longer term project, and potentially to soon, and something that if we did keep in place will deliver what we need, and the structure of bringing in top talent from the academy and selling on when the time is right giving us a long term sustainable successful model on and off the park. If we have got this wrong, then we have got it wrong - its ripped up and moved on to Plan B whatever that maybe. Word of caution, if we rip it up right now and before next season we potentially pull the plug on something that history will never have the benefit of defining - this is my own dilemma and why I choose not to

Good post ??

[rudi must stay]

I think Shaun may be onto something. Excellent manager who hasn't had the breaks, you can factor in the Spain game for Scotland too (3-0 down, they get to 3-3, 1 minute later it's 4-3 Spain). The sparks gone out in him, he never had it from day 1 IMO and I do think he was forced forward by Ann Budge. I have a feeling he'll be upstairs by the end of the season

[shaun.lawson]

45 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

Shaun - I hadn't read many of your posts before, obviously you have been on this forum a long time, a lot longer than me personally, but I want to debate the point that you make and for a few specific reasons

 

I emigrated last year to the other side of the planet hence joining this forum - I had my ST and went to a lot of away games as well, week in week out. I obviously had heard of kickback but when I was going to the games didn't have the desire to join at the time, as I was seeing what was happening week in week out. I personally have become addicted to this place as its hard enough moving away from friends and family without missing my beloved club and the games week in, week out. Desperately trying to find streams to games every week - getting up at 3am in the mornings, sweating that I cant pick up a decent stream to each game without it crashing, its a mental torture in all honesty. However, its good reading different points of view and having reasoned debate and hearing good points being raised and only by being on here

 

For me there is 4 groups on this forum. I think a lot of supporters have an emotional tie to CL, in the sense that and we all know that he was probably one of the finest players ever to grace the maroon in a generation, so when you see any personal attacks from poster to poster, this normally comes about when you see any personal attacks on the man himself, which rightly or wrongly is understandable. These same posters will defend him through thick and thin, and again, who can blame them - he is a hearts legend and that will never change. The opposite end is you then have posters who just don't want or like him managing the club because of a perceived attitude that CL has to games in the sense that they think he sets us up, primarily not to lose rather than win - In their eyes, he is far to conservative because of a perceived attitude toward the game in general. Then you have those that want him to get the summer, get the necessary players in and make a decision after this point and depending on how well we do going into next season, and thinking that we are sacrificing short term success for long term success. The final group like to come on and stir shite whenever they can and they have as much affiliation to Hearts as most of us do to Neil Lennon's arse - unfortunately. However, and excluding the unfortunates group, out of                 Group A Stay           Group B/ Go         Group C/ Give him the summer                         who is actually right? - History may tell us, anything else is speculation at this point in time

 

The first point is that your theory, and definitely interesting in parts, has a preclusion that CL life and actual events has formed or shaped his thinking or tactical beliefs within the game. He has had a lot of hardship , for sure, and yes - you are right in the sense that mentally this could have affected him as it could have affected us all - but this is based on your theory right? - My Uncle, who played football, knew CL very very well - he didn't particularly like him as a person but respected him for his decisiveness and not being swayed by what others thought - Brings me back to the point - people who are scarred or scared of the future will tend to lean on others for opinions as they have formed self doubt, as my Uncle said to me, this never happened with Levein - he was the exact opposite. Point 2 - You mentioned his management career to date - Hearts twice, Dundee Utd, Leicester and Scotland - This doesn't sound like someone who is inhibited or mentally has been affected by fear - Takes a lot of guts and ambition to keep progressing like this even when you are taking knocks along the way - again, doesn't appear that inhibition is in play. Point 3, and for me the key point is this - CL has and always has been a high level thinker in the game and even before the actual events which shaped his life - If he had tasted the personal success in his playing career or won a trophy in his management career would he think differently than he does now ? - I think in all honesty, the answer is no - he wouldn't  - Taking a National Side is different from building a club structure within a club side so I understand to a degree what happened in his time with Scotland, mistakes happened, but something different happened within his time with the club sides, exc Leicester and for the reasons that I gave  

 

Finally, and going back to the groups of posters I'm in the give him the summer camp - A lot of posters think this is a mentally deranged thought process and who can blame them given our recent performances - I can understand completely. One of the key things about CL for me is this, he isn't the type of manager you can hand a bunch of players to and will get the best out of them immediately. I see him as more of a builder, a strategic thinker, where he builds up his team through time - selecting the right type of players to do the job. This is probably one of the annoyances at the moment with signings - we are already 2 signings, possibly 3 in, Mclean, Mulraney and Oochy (spelling is terrible) and we are now doomed in a lot of peoples eyes. I remember when Valois, De Vries and Fuller were signed - No one even knew who they were - plucked from obscurity and look what happened. I'm not going to argue out who's team it was, who signed the players etc - and under Robbie/Cathro - that's been and gone. I'm judging Levein solely on the signings which he has made and since Christmas and not before and to date they have been good, all be it Danny needs to improve but may just need a good pre season. Don't get me wrong, my one overall criticism with CL is that he may overthink things at times, take more risks etc, but you could also argue that people don't think things through enough - argument goes both ways

 

As you alluded to with your post and when he was given time with Hearts, first time round, and Utd look what he left in place?. A structure from top to bottom that was built to be taken forward - By rights, I think that was the problem at Leicester - English football these days is get it right immediately or you are out - unfortunately he couldn't do it quickly enough - This isn't CL's game - Anyone who thinks he will bring instant success needs their own head read - If you look at the history and the facts, everything successful that he built in the past points toward the fact that he doesn't do it overnight, but that it takes time,  but his track record with us (1st time round) is that he can, and if given time he will. These are facts and I personally would rather follow the facts than some physiological theory that his life conditioning has affected him in some adverse way and this is impacting on our performances on the field. Yes, we cant wait forever on us improving and i'm sure it is getting to cometh the hour, cometh the man type stuff, and if our performances and results don't improve he has to make way, and quickly. We are key players short in parts of the team and he needs to bring these players in.

 

I'm just concerned currently that due to the desire for immediate and improved success and watching our verministic friends gain a wee bit of short term success in the same period that we see this as an ideal time to see fit to pull the trigger on our own longer term project, and potentially to soon, and something that if we did keep in place will deliver what we need, and the structure of bringing in top talent from the academy and selling on when the time is right giving us a long term sustainable successful model on and off the park. If we have got this wrong, then we have got it wrong - its ripped up and moved on to Plan B whatever that maybe. Word of caution, if we rip it up right now and before next season we potentially pull the plug on something that history will never have the benefit of defining - this is my own dilemma and why I choose not to

 

This is a great post and a brilliant read. I wish to heavens others could follow your lead, engage and provide argument, analysis and discussion as you have. To those who've suggested I somehow want a "Shaun thread" replete with endless ad hominems and borderline bullying - are you having a laugh? Posts like the above are what I want. What I think we all should want in a place like this.

 

I was especially struck by what you said about getting addicted to this place after you emigrated. The rather embarrassing spike in my post count happened in tandem with my not being able to get to many games any more. I missed it just as you have; and I share your pain with online streams too.

 

I agree about emotional ties. Purely because of when I started going to many games, my one's to JJ. I get really defensive if he's ever criticised on here - because he gave me some of the happiest times of my life. I also agree that Levein's always been very much his own man; he's had a coldly detached sort of ruthlessness about him at times, never better exemplified than when he left for Leicester (a decision I'm not criticising him for at all, incidentally).

 

But the problem is, he's no longer decisive or anything close to it on the touchline. His general approach is bound to turn many games into borderline lotteries, in which the first goal wins - and he's incredibly passive. That we've not come from behind to win a single match this season tells its own story, and contrasts in very stark terms from his first spell here. 

 

In that first spell, clear progress, well beyond what he's done this season, could be discerned in 2000/1. Then there was a drop, which left many doubting him - but that was caused by having to get so many expensive veterans off the wage bill. Then, suddenly, we had lift-off. I cannot for the life of me imagine him doing that again. The sheer turnover of players required (how do we build something when we keep signing and releasing so many?) militates against it, as do tactics which are horribly outdated nowadays. 

 

You also mention his bravery in taking those various jobs. Well - at the very highest level of the game, Mourinho's never shied away from the biggest jobs either. But he too is nothing like the manager he once was; he too is way cagier and more fearful in his approach to matches. He's getting away with it at the moment mostly because of the quality of players at his disposal, and depth of his squad - but I can't see it lasting.

 

Finally, on the long term project you mention: as has been alluded to by others above, we've already ripped that project up by moving him from Sporting Director to manager. Having a DoF in place should, in theory, mean it scarcely matters who the manager is; the best run clubs under this model move pretty seamlessly from one manager/head coach to the next. But we're not doing that. Instead, we lurched from very young to very experienced; from cerebral and idealistic to pragmatic and defensive; and his assistant coach is practically his polar opposite in how he views the game. None of that makes any sense. 

 

Nor, indeed, does focusing so much on the academy (rightly so) with a manager who while giving young players their chance, does so within such a cagey system of play. After we knocked Hibs out of the Cup, Levein admitted he'd been worried how Mitchell would fare. This is a brilliant young player we'd loaned from Man Utd - but CL was scared he wouldn't be able to adjust. I rolled my eyes at that: because the only way we're going to make this work is by committing to it fully and being positive, positive, positive. 

 

I hope that changes in the manner you suggest. I simply don't see any evidence that it will. But agreeing to disagree is fine. You've more than provoked my thoughts, and I hope you post a lot more.  

[OTT]

Compared to where we were this time last year we do have a much more solid unit which I feel like will only improve over the summer as the beginnings of a spine are there. Days like Sunday are what really put me off following football. We might not have won had we had a go but the fans had a right to see the team go out there and try and win. From the first whistle it felt like there wasn't an attempt to win the game which is unforgivable. Every game we play should be a game we try and win otherwise whats the point? I realise Leveins tactics were to try and frustrate the fans and hope that would create the opening we needed but that was woefully executed by our players and tbh isn't a strategy I want to see executed again. 

 

I think setting up like that does say something about Leveins own psyche with approaching big games in Glasgow. When we play attacking football the team are entertaining and there is a product worth paying for but overcomplicating the game with non-footballing tactics is just embarrassing, those tactics were not about winning the the game by playing football is was about hoping the pressure from the stands would be too much for the home players which is frankly ridiculous. Contrast that manner of thinking with how we played against Celtic. Night and day. I do understand you cannot set a team up to play the same every game otherwise you become easy to play against but it didn't even seem like we were set up to counter attack as every forward ball was lost of squandered. We seemed keen to just continually give the ball back to them and keep being soaking up pressure. It is a fact the other team cannot score if we have the ball... Its just maddening tbh. 

 

I really hope these tactics were born out of a lack of confidence in the current players and over the summer we will see Levein bring his own players in and we can have a go next season. Hibs and Aberdeen are not world beaters and the huns are just spending more but don't necessarily have better players. We've wasted the last 2 seasons. I do think though, that Levein deserves another kick at the ball and if next season doesn't see us secure 2 meaningful cup runs which match the expectation of the fans (semi finals) and a European place finishing position then its time he was moved on and someone who can take us forward steps up. I desperately want Levein to win a cup with us so this monkey can pulled off his back. I think the OP has a valid point about the amount of near misses Levein has had in career and the impact that plays on approaching big games. We choked at Motherwell big time. 

 

I do believe Levein will eventually hit a point where he has taken us as far as he can realistically manage but its my hope that won't be for a while yet and this season and the tactics are a result of the Cathro hangover. I cannot accept writing off next season as well as that will be 3 years wasted. 

[Hearts1975]

25 minutes ago, OTT said:

Compared to where we were this time last year we do have a much more solid unit which I feel like will only improve over the summer as the beginnings of a spine are there. Days like Sunday are what really put me off following football. We might not have won had we had a go but the fans had a right to see the team go out there and try and win. From the first whistle it felt like there wasn't an attempt to win the game which is unforgivable. Every game we play should be a game we try and win otherwise whats the point? I realise Leveins tactics were to try and frustrate the fans and hope that would create the opening we needed but that was woefully executed by our players and tbh isn't a strategy I want to see executed again. 

 

I think setting up like that does say something about Leveins own psyche with approaching big games in Glasgow. When we play attacking football the team are entertaining and there is a product worth paying for but overcomplicating the game with non-footballing tactics is just embarrassing, those tactics were not about winning the the game by playing football is was about hoping the pressure from the stands would be too much for the home players which is frankly ridiculous. Contrast that manner of thinking with how we played against Celtic. Night and day. I do understand you cannot set a team up to play the same every game otherwise you become easy to play against but it didn't even seem like we were set up to counter attack as every forward ball was lost of squandered. We seemed keen to just continually give the ball back to them and keep being soaking up pressure. It is a fact the other team cannot score if we have the ball... Its just maddening tbh. 

 

I really hope these tactics were born out of a lack of confidence in the current players and over the summer we will see Levein bring his own players in and we can have a go next season. Hibs and Aberdeen are not world beaters and the huns are just spending more but don't necessarily have better players. We've wasted the last 2 seasons. I do think though, that Levein deserves another kick at the ball and if next season doesn't see us secure 2 meaningful cup runs which match the expectation of the fans (semi finals) and a European place finishing position then its time he was moved on and someone who can take us forward steps up. I desperately want Levein to win a cup with us so this monkey can pulled off his back. I think the OP has a valid point about the amount of near misses Levein has had in career and the impact that plays on approaching big games. We choked at Motherwell big time. 

 

I do believe Levein will eventually hit a point where he has taken us as far as he can realistically manage but its my hope that won't be for a while yet and this season and the tactics are a result of the Cathro hangover. I cannot accept writing off next season as well as that will be 3 years wasted. 

Again some good reasoned points made - last paragraph bang on, next year is a big year but pain is something I'll accept if it will give us a model to produce a better and more consistent level of success in the not to distant future 

[underwaterwoodwelder]

I don't know we're to start but my feelings are cl will get one more season before moving upstairs again.

He will bring in his players and try get us in Europe next year and a run in the cups.

 

Although I think his style will always stay the same and that is clean sheet always comes first. I hate how our prayers no matter how good or bad they are don't seem to be able to string a set of passes together against the top six teams especially away from home. We have enough international players and talent to take it to any team in the league and I'd rather give a go and loose 4 nil than play defensive and loose 2 v 1.

 

Fans pay good money to be entertained and I don't think we are being entertained at majority of the games.

 

[Hearts1975]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

This is a great post and a brilliant read. I wish to heavens others could follow your lead, engage and provide argument, analysis and discussion as you have. To those who've suggested I somehow want a "Shaun thread" replete with endless ad hominems and borderline bullying - are you having a laugh? Posts like the above are what I want. What I think we all should want in a place like this.

 

I was especially struck by what you said about getting addicted to this place after you emigrated. The rather embarrassing spike in my post count happened in tandem with my not being able to get to many games any more. I missed it just as you have; and I share your pain with online streams too.

 

I agree about emotional ties. Purely because of when I started going to many games, my one's to JJ. I get really defensive if he's ever criticised on here - because he gave me some of the happiest times of my life. I also agree that Levein's always been very much his own man; he's had a coldly detached sort of ruthlessness about him at times, never better exemplified than when he left for Leicester (a decision I'm not criticising him for at all, incidentally).

 

But the problem is, he's no longer decisive or anything close to it on the touchline. His general approach is bound to turn many games into borderline lotteries, in which the first goal wins - and he's incredibly passive. That we've not come from behind to win a single match this season tells its own story, and contrasts in very stark terms from his first spell here. 

 

In that first spell, clear progress, well beyond what he's done this season, could be discerned in 2000/1. Then there was a drop, which left many doubting him - but that was caused by having to get so many expensive veterans off the wage bill. Then, suddenly, we had lift-off. I cannot for the life of me imagine him doing that again. The sheer turnover of players required (how do we build something when we keep signing and releasing so many?) militates against it, as do tactics which are horribly outdated nowadays. 

 

You also mention his bravery in taking those various jobs. Well - at the very highest level of the game, Mourinho's never shied away from the biggest jobs either. But he too is nothing like the manager he once was; he too is way cagier and more fearful in his approach to matches. He's getting away with it at the moment mostly because of the quality of players at his disposal, and depth of his squad - but I can't see it lasting.

 

Finally, on the long term project you mention: as has been alluded to by others above, we've already ripped that project up by moving him from Sporting Director to manager. Having a DoF in place should, in theory, mean it scarcely matters who the manager is; the best run clubs under this model move pretty seamlessly from one manager/head coach to the next. But we're not doing that. Instead, we lurched from very young to very experienced; from cerebral and idealistic to pragmatic and defensive; and his assistant coach is practically his polar opposite in how he views the game. None of that makes any sense. 

 

Nor, indeed, does focusing so much on the academy (rightly so) with a manager who while giving young players their chance, does so within such a cagey system of play. After we knocked Hibs out of the Cup, Levein admitted he'd been worried how Mitchell would fare. This is a brilliant young player we'd loaned from Man Utd - but CL was scared he wouldn't be able to adjust. I rolled my eyes at that: because the only way we're going to make this work is by committing to it fully and being positive, positive, positive. 

 

I hope that changes in the manner you suggest. I simply don't see any evidence that it will. But agreeing to disagree is fine. You've more than provoked my thoughts, and I hope you post a lot more.  

All good ?

 

we will always get our opinions or decisions wrong at points in our lives as much as we will invariably get things right - whether it's partners, friends family or even This forum and ur own support, we will never always agree 

 

thats what a discussion board is for - it's not for currying favour as much as it's not a place to cry people down and just because they don't have the same opinion as you - I don't know which ones worst in all honesty. Make ur point of view, debate the reasons why, justify your own position and respect other points of view, even if u don't agree yourself 

 

As said - I exclude those that use the forum as an opportunity to deliberately wind folk up, or their motives for posting on here and some of the stuff that they do post is questionable, in which case calling them out is the right thing to do 

[Kiwidoug]

Im going to do a huge big massive post one day.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 hour ago, Kiwidoug said:

Im going to do a huge big massive post one day.

 

?

 

Made me laugh. 

[BobbyJenkins]

6 hours ago, sadj said:

Whos defended Sundays performance on this thread?

Nobody. He’s just another in a long line of slavers with no clue.

[davemclaren]

7 hours ago, Hendricks said:

 

 

Numerous people are excusing anything and everything. I'd suggest you read their posts, many of which are in fairness pretty incoherent, on the multiple recent threads. One of the points in the OP in the "Will this marriage end in divorce" thread suggested our support is divided for one reason and one reason only; Craig Levein's presence. That is becoming more and more evident. Until he is removed our club will not see the support pulling in the same direction, that much is very clear. 

Alternatively, Craig wins more matches next season and we are back competing with Aberdeen and Hibs again. Or would that not see the support pulling in the same direction?

[i wish jj was my dad]

8 hours ago, Hendricks said:

There appears to be absolutely nothing that Levein should be held accountable for. Glad thats been cleared up by those who care more about his failing career than they do about the best interests of Heart of Midlothian Football Club. 

He can be held accountable for the success/failure of all football operations, academy = success, recruitment STRATEGY = failure - reviewed in summer and significant improvement subsequently. First team performance = must improve - so he takes on operational responsibility and will either succeed or fail with his own job on the line. Sports science, pitch etc. I have no idea. 

 

what more do you want?

[Hendricks]

11 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Alternatively, Craig wins more matches next season and we are back competing with Aberdeen and Hibs again. Or would that not see the support pulling in the same direction?

 

It would be a fairly difficult task to fail to win more than the pitiful 10 in 30 league games he has achieved since taking over. I personally think he will struggle to reunite the support as I don’t see him doing well enough quick enough to quell the ever growing frustrations. We’ll see how things pan out but my prediction right now would not be a positive one for how this shakes down. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 hours ago, dc-jambo said:

Not always agreeing with Shaun, as I said, but he sure manages to provoke and expose the biggest chancers on JKB. In this thread’s case: the people who are on here to defend Sunday’s abominable performance. 

I haven't dramatically gone through the board but I haven't read anything defending Sunday's performance

[Hendricks]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

He can be held accountable for the success/failure of all football operations, academy = success, recruitment STRATEGY = failure - reviewed in summer and significant improvement subsequently. First team performance = must improve - so he takes on operational responsibility and will either succeed or fail with his own job on the line. Sports science, pitch etc. I have no idea. 

 

what more do you want?

 

Lol. You have absolutely no idea how successful the academy we are being assured he has rebuilt is going to prove or otherwise. A few decent performances from a couple of promising teenagers does not mean we are on our way to being the next Crewe Alexander under Dario Gradi however much you try to claim

”success” at this stage! The rest of your post is also utter speculation based on nothing but your own opinion and misguided faith. If Ann Budge wasn’t as loyal as she is to Levein he’d have been chased out of Tynecastle already. She and he will have nowhere to hide come the autumn if they make another arse of the summer transfer window amd we start the season in similar shambles to last. 

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, Hendricks said:

 

Lol. You have absolutely no idea how successful the academy we are being assured he has rebuilt is going to prove or otherwise. A few decent performances from a couple of promising teenagers does not mean we are on our way to being the next Crewe Alexander under Dario Gradi however much you try to claim

”success” at this stage! The rest of your post is also utter speculation based on nothing but your own opinion and misguided faith. If Ann Budge wasn’t as loyal as she is to Levein he’d have been chased out of Tynecastle already. She and he will have nowhere to hide come the autumn if they make another arse of the summer transfer window amd we start the season in similar shambles to last. 

 

How’s the weather?  

[stuart500]

Was going to read the OP but realised I've got Christmas presents to buy.

 

Anyway. The kickback hokey cokey continues.

 

Levein in.

Levein out.

Shake it all about. 

 

The failures of the past have been done to death. No one's been happy at falling behind the vermin. If that's not rectified next season Levein will need to accept he has failed and if he genuinely loves the club as he claims, do the honourable thing and step down. 

[BobbyJenkins]

51 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Alternatively, Craig wins more matches next season and we are back competing with Aberdeen and Hibs again. Or would that not see the support pulling in the same direction?

Football fortune is very changeable, thats partly why its so exciting season to season, even if the previous one was shite  

[BobbyJenkins]

Just now, stuart500 said:

Was going to read the OP but realised I've got Christmas presents to buy.

 

Anyway. The kickback hokey cokey continues.

 

Levein in.

Levein out.

Shake it all about. 

 

The failures of the past have been done to death. No one's been happy at falling behind the vermin. If that's not rectified next season Levein will need to accept he has failed and if he genuinely loves the club as he claims, do the honourable thing and step down. 

This is where most sensible people are at. Hes going nowhere, how about supporting him and the club until hes had that chance? Fails on his gig then fine he goes altogether.

[Coco]

1 hour ago, Hendricks said:

 

Lol. You have absolutely no idea how successful the academy we are being assured he has rebuilt is going to prove or otherwise. A few decent performances from a couple of promising teenagers does not mean we are on our way to being the next Crewe Alexander under Dario Gradi however much you try to claim

”success” at this stage! The rest of your post is also utter speculation based on nothing but your own opinion and misguided faith. If Ann Budge wasn’t as loyal as she is to Levein he’d have been chased out of Tynecastle already. She and he will have nowhere to hide come the autumn if they make another arse of the summer transfer window amd we start the season in similar shambles to last. 

 

The chances of Levein/MacPhee doing as badly as Cathro/MacPhee in the league cup are very low.  It is hard to believe how badly the less than dynamic duo did last summer.  And the way that Levein plays the game a crisis of continual defeats is also very unlikely.

 

I don't believe that the low quality Board at Hearts are doing any work on alternative managerial/football department setups.  They don't see a crisis.

[BobbyJenkins]

7 minutes ago, Coco said:

 

The chances of Levein/MacPhee doing as badly as Cathro/MacPhee in the league cup are very low.  It is hard to believe how badly the less than dynamic duo did last summer.  And the way that Levein plays the game a crisis of continual defeats is also very unlikely.

 

I don't believe that the low quality Board at Hearts are doing any work on alternative managerial/football department setups.  They don't see a crisis.

I believe they are. Like you I have no evidence at all to base that on but you know, theyre high quality. Get some reality into your life Coco, your hatred of Levein is clouding everything Hearts. Youre better than this.

[Erik]

At a risk of going off on a massive tangent, having seen the post Shaun made about attending most of his games during 96-00....... that kinda confused me a bit.

 

Perhaps my memory is skewed a bit, and forgive me if i'm wrong Shaun, but was there not a big deal made on here maybe around 2009-10 when Shaun made his first trip to Tynecastle or something?!?

 

Like I say, maybe my mind is playing tricks on me - but I'm fairly sure I remember at the time a pretty big deal of it being made on here.

[Alex Kintner]

9 minutes ago, Erik said:

At a risk of going off on a massive tangent, having seen the post Shaun made about attending most of his games during 96-00....... that kinda confused me a bit.

 

Perhaps my memory is skewed a bit, and forgive me if i'm wrong Shaun, but was there not a big deal made on here maybe around 2009-10 when Shaun made his first trip to Tynecastle or something?!?

 

Like I say, maybe my mind is playing tricks on me - but I'm fairly sure I remember at the time a pretty big deal of it being made on here.

 

Interesting. Shaun?

[Erik]

17 minutes ago, Frank1874 said:

 

Interesting. Shaun?

 

I may be waaaay wide of the mark, but that's how I remember it in my head.

 

Happy to be proven wrong though - wouldn't take it as gospel unless others can recall it being similar.

 

[davemclaren]

2 hours ago, Hendricks said:

 

It would be a fairly difficult task to fail to win more than the pitiful 10 in 30 league games he has achieved since taking over. I personally think he will struggle to reunite the support as I don’t see him doing well enough quick enough to quell the ever growing frustrations. We’ll see how things pan out but my prediction right now would not be a positive one for how this shakes down. 

I do expect there are some that will never accept him staying even if he does turns things around but I don’t think that group of supporters is anywhere near the majority. 

[davemclaren]

1 hour ago, Coco said:

 

The chances of Levein/MacPhee doing as badly as Cathro/MacPhee in the league cup are very low.  It is hard to believe how badly the less than dynamic duo did last summer.  And the way that Levein plays the game a crisis of continual defeats is also very unlikely.

 

I don't believe that the low quality Board at Hearts are doing any work on alternative managerial/football department setups.  They don't see a crisis.

I assume the board is low quality as it hasn’t fired Craig Levein yet?

[Haken]

10 hours ago, Hendricks said:

 

 

I wonder why a 'traditional' supporter () would care that someone who improves the quality of debate on his teams forum would care enough to bother that he was posting!  The need to attempt to silence those with a different (and far more coherent) perspective, perhaps?

Thanks for your input.  You are truly the master of the rofl smiley.  Both cogent and coherent. 

 

I really don't care that the OP is posting here or anywhere - simply making an observation.

[Des Lynam]

Mods can we change the thread title? Perhaps.......

 

Walter Mitty and his clump of fantasists vs real fans who back the club. 

 

[Beast Boy]

See this idea that sacking Levein would reunite the fans? Utter horseshite for two reasons.

 

1) Lots of supporters are still backing him and they would not feel any unity.

 

2) The Hearts support has never been 100% united on anything other than a good victory in my 39 years on this planet.

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, Bez said:

See this idea that sacking Levein would reunite the fans? Utter horseshite for two reasons.

 

1) Lots of supporters are still backing him and they would not feel any unity.

 

2) The Hearts support has never been 100% united on anything other than a good victory in my 39 years on this planet.

Check you and your 39 years...getting it in there before you have to say 40 ?... dont ever do it. 

 

Agree on both points. Win 2-0 it was lucky or it should of been 5 thats football. You will never get unity between all fans of a club (caveat that with things such as FoH as thats about the survival of the club not opinions) 

 

Id be very worried if he was sacked just now due to the undertaking to change the whole structure of the club. It would not cause unity may even lead to what ifs. 

[Beast Boy]

10 minutes ago, sadj said:

Check you and your 39 years...getting it in there before you have to say 40 ?... dont ever do it. 

 

Agree on both points. Win 2-0 it was lucky or it should of been 5 thats football. You will never get unity between all fans of a club (caveat that with things such as FoH as thats about the survival of the club not opinions) 

 

Id be very worried if he was sacked just now due to the undertaking to change the whole structure of the club. It would not cause unity may even lead to what ifs. 

 

As you are well aware, my mid-life crisis is already in full swing! Thankfully I’ve went for a healthy one though! ?

 

Believe it or not, but there are Hearts supporters who don’t like FoH and don’t like Ann Budge. A former administrator on here for one.

 

Ive been trying to think of a time when we were all united, and all I can come up with is our Cup wins. Even then there was probably 0.1% of the support sitting with a torn coupon because the vermin scored in 2012.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Bez

[Des Lynam]

16 minutes ago, Bez said:

See this idea that sacking Levein would reunite the fans? Utter horseshite for two reasons.

 

1) Lots of supporters are still backing him and they would not feel any unity.

 

2) The Hearts support has never been 100% united on anything other than a good victory in my 39 years on this planet.

 

Sacking Levein would be an horrendous decision right now. He must be given next season. 

 

Before the clump pile in I’ll admit the current style of play away from home is frustrating and must be improved. However Levein is a shrewd guy and knows he doesn’t have the midfielders available to play swashbuckling football. He’s also been hindered by injuries. 

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Des Lynam said:

 

Sacking Levein would be an horrendous decision right now. He must be given next season. 

 

Before the clump pile in I’ll admit the current style of play away from home is frustrating and must be improved. However Levein is a shrewd guy and knows he doesn’t have the midfielders available to play swashbuckling football. He’s also been hindered by injuries. 

 

Thats exactly what I’ve been trying so say the whole time. However, the clumps don’t seem able to understand this, and instead prefer to screech like **** about cowardice and being in an elated state whilst propelling one’s hands together.

[grumpyespana]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

I do expect there are some that will never accept him staying even if he does turns things around but I don’t think that group of supporters is anywhere near the majority. 

 

You are right Dave most of the true supporters agree with you , personally I think he will turn things around but I would like to see a bit more attacking play when away from home.

[sadj]

21 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

As you are well aware, my mid-life crisis is already in full swing! Thankfully I’ve went for a healthy one though! ?

 

Believe it or not, but there are Hearts supporters who don’t like FoH and don’t like Ann Budge. A former administrator on here for one.

 

Ive been trying to think of a time when we were all united, and all I can come up with is our Cup wins. Even then there was probably 0.1% of the support sitting with a torn coupon because the vermin scored in 2012.

I never said a word ? auld yin!!!

 

*shakes head vigorously in disbelief* thats about as close as I can get to words. Personal positions aside the united feeling of saving the club should be nothing but that.

 

Possibly the 98 cup final? I was going to say 10-0 but i remember reading someone p’d off thst we took the foot off the gas last 20mins ?

[sadj]

2 minutes ago, grumpyespana said:

 

You are right Dave most of the true supporters agree with you , personally I think he will turn things around but I would like to see a bit more attacking play when away from home.

I’d say thats spot on. I think we will when we have balance in the squad. If weve seen anything this year its despite our limitations we don’t have anything to fear from anyone. We have become competitive if unspectacular. 

[Des Lynam]

31 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

Thats exactly what I’ve been trying so say the whole time. However, the clumps don’t seem able to understand this, and instead prefer to screech like **** about cowardice and being in an elated state whilst propelling one’s hands together.

 

I can’t wait for Levein to turn things around quickly next season! 

[Boab]

3 hours ago, stuart500 said:

Was going to read the OP but realised I've got Christmas presents to buy.

 

Anyway. The kickback hokey cokey continues.

 

Levein in.

Levein out.

Shake it all about. 

 

The failures of the past have been done to death. No one's been happy at falling behind the vermin. If that's not rectified next season Levein will need to accept he has failed and if he genuinely loves the club as he claims, do the honourable thing and step down. 

 

This.

Although, i'll be perfectly honest and say i'm not overly thrilled at the prospect of our football if the stuff we are being served up is anything to go by.

Not just away from home as seems to be the popular view. Some tedious stuff at home also.

We can only wait....and hope !

[Escobar PHM]

52 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Sacking Levein would be an horrendous decision right now. He must be given next season. 

 

Before the clump pile in I’ll admit the current style of play away from home is frustrating and must be improved. However Levein is a shrewd guy and knows he doesn’t have the midfielders available to play swashbuckling football. He’s also been hindered by injuries. 

Sacking him after a window and 10 games would be infinitely worse in my opinion. Budge has got a decision to make here. Pull the plug now or don't even think about it until next season has unfolded whatever way its going to unfold. I imagine its a no brainer for her and he's definitely staying despite concerns and whatever the impact on ST sales is or has been.

[Des Lynam]

2 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Sacking him after a window and 10 games would be infinitely worse in my opinion. Budge has got a decision to make here. Pull the plug now or don't even think about it until next season has unfolded whatever way its going to unfold. I imagine its a no brainer for her and he's definitely staying despite concerns and whatever the impact on ST sales is or has been.

 

Just regurgitating your usual propaganda. 

 

If your point is you want Levein sacked I think everyone here gets it. 

[Morph]

13 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Nope. Clearly indicating I would expect him to have not allowed this nonsense to have happened in the first place. Otherwise, what was the point of him and the coaches? 

This is where I am too. 

 

Cathro was a massive failure, and Levein should’ve been doing his homework prior to appointing him to realise he was completely out his depth as a head coach managing a football team.  As a fan you can say “it was a risk worth taking” as there’s no repercussions there but as a DoF it is one of your main jobs to get right. 

 

Levein also should’ve been more involved with transfers (if he wasn’t already) especially given the 2 head coaches he had appointed have never been in a position to deal with a budget and sign players before.  I would’ve had a lot more respect for him in his role of DOF if he had stepped in and said “signing Martin on a 3 year deal is scandalous”. 

 

A poster basically summed my feelings up perfectly earlier when he/she said that levein was forced into the job by budge.  He’ll deliver mediocrity and a bit of stability after Cathro then get back up the stairs as quick as he can.  He’s done a good job with the academies and I’d assume he had a large hand in the championship season but that’s where my praise for him stops.  

Edited April 25, 2018 by Morph

[NANOJAMBO]

6 minutes ago, Morph said:

This is where I am too. 

 

Cathro was a massive failure, and Levein should’ve been doing his homework prior to appointing him to realise he was completely out his depth as a head coach managing a football team.  As a fan you can say “it was a risk worth taking” as there’s no repercussions there but as a DoF it is one of your main jobs to get right. 

 

Levein also should’ve been more involved with transfers (if he wasn’t already) especially given the 2 head coaches he had appointed have never been in a position to deal with a budget and sign players before.  I would’ve had a lot more respect for him in his role of DOF if he had stepped in and said “signing Martin on a 3 year deal is scandalous”. 

 

A poster basically summed my feelings up perfectly earlier when he/she said that levein was forced into the job by budge.  He’ll deliver mediocrity and a bit of stability after Cathro then get back up the stairs as quick as he can.  He’s done a good job with the academies and I’d assume he had a large hand in the championship season but that’s where my praise for him stops.  

You do know they worked together previously ? You do know CL is on the record as saying he wanted this clown at Hearts even sooner but Cathro turned it down ? 

[Morph]

2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

You do know they worked together previously ? You do know CL is on the record as saying he wanted this clown at Hearts even sooner but Cathro turned it down ? 

Yeah they worked together a while ago though, when Cathro was even younger than he was when he joined hearts. 

 

I didnt realise Levein wanted him at Hearts prior to him being appointed head coach though.  Sort of makes it even worse  

 

I’m of the opinion Levein had to go when Cathro was left to take the blame for the entire transfer saga.  Levein either helped him sign these players or he sat back as someone who didn’t have a clue what he was doing was just signing anyone who had a “big” team on their CV.  

 

I hate the argument that levein doesn’t have a midfield either.  Aye of course he doesn’t, he sacked the manager in pre season and took about 3 weeks of crucial transfer time to finally pick himself as manager leaving only time to sneak in marquee midfielder Ross Callachan.  

[Escobar PHM]

8 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

You do know they worked together previously ? You do know CL is on the record as saying he wanted this clown at Hearts even sooner but Cathro turned it down ? 

I think Budge ought to have scrutinised the Cathro appointment a lot closer and had some independent due diligence done. This appointment ended up costing us hundreds of thousands of pounds at a time every penny was a prisoner for the new stand.

 

At the very least, she ought to have realised what a massive gamble was about to be taken and told Levein in no uncertain terms that his job was on the line if such a gamble failed.

 

I think privately she was bloody furious after the League cup exit and told Levein to get rid of him

Edited April 25, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Sacking Levein would be an horrendous decision right now. He must be given next season. 

 

Before the clump pile in I’ll admit the current style of play away from home is frustrating and must be improved. However Levein is a shrewd guy and knows he doesn’t have the midfielders available to play swashbuckling football. He’s also been hindered by injuries. 

 

 

Des has been taking his common sense pills today.

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

I think Budge ought to have scrutinised the Cathro appointment a lot closer and had some independent due diligence done. This appointment ended up costing us hundreds of thousands of pounds at a time every penny was a prisoner for the new stand.

 

At the very least, she ought to have realised what a massive gamble was about to be taken and told Levein in no uncertain terms that his job was on the line if such a gamble failed.

I totally agree with all of that. My post was in relation to the OP suggesting CL didn't do his due dilligence - my point is CL had already made up his mind.  

[Escobar PHM]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

I totally agree with all of that. My post was in relation to the OP suggesting CL didn't do his due dilligence - my point is CL had already made up his mind.  

I imagine that's why we didn't fight very hard to keep Neilson. CL saw the opportunity to get Cathro in. Cathro was open to it. What an almighty error. Bordering on sackable misjudgement IMO

[Morph]

6 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

I think Budge ought to have scrutinised the Cathro appointment a lot closer and had some independent due diligence done. This appointment ended up costing us hundreds of thousands of pounds at a time every penny was a prisoner for the new stand.

 

At the very least, she ought to have realised what a massive gamble was about to be taken and told Levein in no uncertain terms that his job was on the line if such a gamble failed.

 

I think privately she was bloody furious after the League cup exit and told Levein to get rid of him

That’s not Budges job though. 

 

Budge has been pretty open that she leaves footballing matters to Levein.  I think you’re probably right that she was seething and I reckon she forced Levein into the job to sort the mess out.  However I don’t think it’s her job to have the foresight that Cathro would struggle, that falls on Levein.  He’s managed to get away with it though, all the blame lies with Cathro and he’s taken no responsibility for it. 

[BobbyJenkins]

1 minute ago, Morph said:

That’s not Budges job though. 

 

Budge has been pretty open that she leaves footballing matters to Levein.  I think you’re probably right that she was seething and I reckon she forced Levein into the job to sort the mess out.  However I don’t think it’s her job to have the foresight that Cathro would struggle, that falls on Levein.  He’s managed to get away with it though, all the blame lies with Cathro and he’s taken no responsibility for it. 

By taking the job to fix it hes surely taking responsibility. Or you mean he should have fallen on his sword?

 

Just admit that you and a few others on here will not be happy until hes gone. 

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

I imagine that's why we didn't fight very hard to keep Neilson. CL saw the opportunity to get Cathro in. Cathro was open to it. What an almighty error. Bordering on sackable misjudgement IMO

Interesting point. I  wondered why we never fought to keep him but go down a new coach AND team rebuild route in mid season. But then I did always think CL came across as bitter that Robbie left the way he did , so not sure. The one thing that did ring alarm bells was when CL said Cathro tuned the job down because he wanted to continue working with kids (or words to that effect) which made me wonder what was he actually doing before coming to Hearts ? What real experience did he have at a senior level. anyways, he's gone now.