Hard Brexit

[Ibrahim Tall]

3 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

Even a General Election won’t solve this mess.

 

If anything it could make it worse tbh, no major party has the bollocks to run on a ‘2nd referendum’ platform so we’d just be wasting already precious time on re-electing the Tories or bringing in someone new and setting negotiations even further back.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

8 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

If anything it could make it worse tbh, no major party has the bollocks to run on a ‘2nd referendum’ platform so we’d just be wasting already precious time on re-electing the Tories or bringing in someone new and setting negotiations even further back.

Yes - and if it ended up with no party having a controlling majority, which would seem possible, we probably wouldnt get parliament to agree on anything

[The Mighty Thor]

[The Mighty Thor]

The festering resentment within the Tory party will now erupt into full on civil war! 

Strong and stable will be gone within weeks and the whole shit show is going to come apart with the likes of Davis Johnson and Gove trampling each other to get the steering wheel.

Hopefully this will wake up the sleepwalking masses to the fact that this has never ever been about what's best for Britain. It's only been about what's best for the conservatives.

[Francis Albert]

His reason for resigning (in effect that the so called "May deal" cuts the UK negotiating position off at the knees and will just lead to the EU seeking more onerous terms) is actually spot on. Mind you it is just about the first coherent thing he has said on the Brexit negotiation to which he brought no energy or skill or at times even much apparent interest.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Francis Albert

[jake]

1 hour ago, The Brow said:

 

I've no issue  with the vote, it happened, the result was given. Here we are. 

 

But the manner in which this has been delivered is shocking. Its a complete and utter ****ing shambles. Nobody is getting what they actually voted for, how can folk be okay with that? 

 

You cant be anymore happy with the past two years than a remainer? 

It was a revolution without bloodshed.

 

Isn't that something ?

 

Or is everyone happy to see big business rule?

 

Profit over climate

Profit over hunger

 

Etc etc.

 

Or are all you social justice people just looking out for cheap holidays and the chance to travel?

[jake]

Brexit for whatever the reason was a fek you to the establishment.

And isn't it an eye opener to see who is crying the most.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

What a fecking joke this whole shambles is

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 hours ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

Liking the sound of this.

 

Especially as I'm of the group 'those who realise what a mistake they made in the earlier vote'.

 

Doesn't mean you'll get cut any slack on the Rangers thread though.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Ultimately this has been about a dispute within the Conservative party. 

[XB52]

13 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Nah, the vote was held and the decision was made.

 

I still maintain that whatever exit deal is reached it should be put to the people in a referendum.  Voters should be allowed to reject any negotiated deal in favour of a no-deal exit if they wish.

?? So a second referendum then

[doctor jambo]

For the Brexiteers its all going beautifully

 

An impossible task for May to hold things together.

 

A hard brexit followed by the London dream - the UK becoming a massive tax shelter, slashing business and personal taxes to undermine Europe- because that is what the UK is gunning for, and what the EU have missed in all this-

 

If they think that London will lose its financial services, they're off their tatties.

If there is one thing the UK is great at, its running tax havens

[Boris]

2 hours ago, jake said:

It was a revolution without bloodshed.

 

Isn't that something ?

 

Or is everyone happy to see big business rule?

 

Profit over climate

Profit over hunger

 

Etc etc.

 

Or are all you social justice people just looking out for cheap holidays and the chance to travel?

 

 

Yeah, because Gove, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc etc are all about hunger and climate over profit.

 

Jeez.

 

 

[Boris]

2 hours ago, jake said:

Brexit for whatever the reason was a fek you to the establishment.

And isn't it an eye opener to see who is crying the most.

 

Yeah, the people!

 

If you think this was two fingers to the establisjment, you should think again.  The establishment have engineered this!

[Cade]

[doctor jambo]

11 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yeah, the people!

 

If you think this was two fingers to the establisjment, you should think again.  The establishment have engineered this!

as I stated Boris

The plan all along has been to engineer a situation where the only option to avoid economic collapse after quitting the EU will be to massively slash taxes

[Don Dan]

It’s like winning the war and asking the defeated to organise and run things. 

[Gizmo]

Just now, Barack said:

Genuinely haven't a clue what's going on anymore.

 

 

That's probably all that will be written on any deal submission to the EU at this point! 

For such a marginal result in the referendum, to grown idiots like Boris washing their hands of a result they didn't really want but backed for political capital, to the farce of leading Brexiteers like Farage and Rees-Mogg moving to Europe, this thing wouldn't get made as a a farcical comedy film for being too unbelievable. 

All to try and save a fractured Tory party and to hell with the country. May has been punch-drunk on the ropes for months and Corbyn, aided an abetted it has to be said by the right-wing jingoistic msm, still cannot or will not land the finishing blow. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

For the Brexiteers its all going beautifully

 

An impossible task for May to hold things together.

 

A hard brexit followed by the London dream - the UK becoming a massive tax shelter, slashing business and personal taxes to undermine Europe- because that is what the UK is gunning for, and what the EU have missed in all this-

 

If they think that London will lose its financial services, they're off their tatties.

If there is one thing the UK is great at, its running tax havens

A dive to the absolute bottom and if it was driven by anti-establishment sentiment and not petty, insular voters easily persuaded by skillful and illegal politicking by the likes of Cambridge Analytica, those people are going to find little solace when wages and worker rights flatline, when food and safety regulations are relaxed and we lose more of our skilled manufacturing sector. Some ****ing revolution.



 

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, jake said:

It was a revolution without bloodshed.

 

Isn't that something ?

 

Or is everyone happy to see big business rule?

 

Profit over climate

Profit over hunger

 

Etc etc.

 

Or are all you social justice people just looking out for cheap holidays and the chance to travel?

 

2 hours ago, jake said:

Brexit for whatever the reason was a fek you to the establishment.

And isn't it an eye opener to see who is crying the most.

The immeasurable amount of pish you spout in defence of your vacuous choice of vote is the most astonishing example of confirmation bias I have ever seen in my life.

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Justin Z
Changed to UK spelling ? ?

[Governor Tarkin]

3 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

The immeasurable amount of pish you spout in defence of your vacuous choice of vote is the most astonishing example of confirmation bias I have ever seen in my life.

 

 

Harsh.

[Governor Tarkin]

On 7/8/2018 at 09:49, Victorian said:

 

We're heading towards a meltdown for the government,    a Tory leadership change,    a general election and a no-deal Brexit.       Quite possibly the eventual groundswell of support for a second referendum.

 

[doctor jambo]

14 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

That's probably all that will be written on any deal submission to the EU at this point! 

For such a marginal result in the referendum, to grown idiots like Boris washing their hands of a result they didn't really want but backed for political capital, to the farce of leading Brexiteers like Farage and Rees-Mogg moving to Europe, this thing wouldn't get made as a a farcical comedy film for being too unbelievable. 

All to try and save a fractured Tory party and to hell with the country. May has been punch-drunk on the ropes for months and Corbyn, aided an abetted it has to be said by the right-wing jingoistic msm, still cannot or will not land the finishing blow. 

 

 

A dive to the absolute bottom and if it was driven by anti-establishment sentiment and not petty, insular voters easily persuaded by skillful and illegal politicking by the likes of Cambridge Analytica, those people are going to find little solace when wages and worker rights flatline, when food and safety regulations are relaxed and we lose more of our skilled manufacturing sector. Some ****ing revolution.



 

Or we could end up as a "new Switzerland", where the country actually has so much of other nations cash swilling around in it that everyone is well off, guess we'll find out soon enough

[Mikey1874]

17 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

It’s like winning the war and asking the defeated to organise and run things. 

 

It's like invading a country, winning the war then asking the locals to run things because you didn't expect to win and had no plan what to do.  

[jake]

12 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

The immeasurable amount of pish you spout in defence of your vacuous choice of vote is the most astonishing example of confirmation bias I have ever seen in my life.

 

Mate.

 

That was a beautiful put down.

 

 

And probably deserved.

?

[Justin Z]

Just now, jake said:

Mate.

 

That was a beautiful put down.

 

 

And probably deserved.

?

 

Haha. Tarkin may be right (okay, he is), but thanks for taking it in the spirit I intended--trying to follow Scottish piss-taking tradition. In the end, you know I think you're alright.

[doctor jambo]

I have never understood why it is down to 1 party to deliver Brexit

 

The "vote" was not party political

 

And neither should the delivery team be

[Victorian]

David Davis described this as "a career ending decision".       Well boo ****ing hoo for his career.      How many other careers ( crucial household livelihood careers ) are in peril from the implications of this horror show?      David Davis is completely insulated from it.     He's very wealthy.     All of them are.      There can never be any authentic duty of care towards the masses while the ruling elite do not share in the risks.

 

The fact that David Davis made a reference to his career in the immediate aftermath of him legging it should not be missed.     That's exactly what's going on in this tragic farce.      

[Don Dan]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's like invading a country, winning the war then asking the locals to run things because you didn't expect to win and had no plan what to do.  

 

Exactly. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

13 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's like invading a country, winning the war then asking the locals to run things because you didn't expect to win and had no plan what to do.  

Brilliant.

[doctor jambo]

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Exactly. 

The politicians under-estimated the stupidity of the masses.

 

Possibly because they don't work with them all the time.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

Of course I wasn't suggesting British voters would support a common  tax policy across the EU. Scaremongering was perhaps over-stating it but there has certainly been exaggeration of the impact of tariffs and administrative difficulties, which you have just contributed to. Britain imports a lot from non-EU including supplies essential for "just in time" manufacturing (a concept invented and perfected in Japan, which also depends on imports  for manufacturing,without the benefit of a common market). Currency fluctuations and tax differentials impact more than tarrifs  - certainly at the 4% average WTO rules levels.

 

An example close to home - our new stand. This involved supplies from outside the EU including a critical element - the seats. Now if administrative difficulties was a factor, I think we might have heard about that it might have been more credible than the excuse of a wet summer and shipping delays from the Far East.

 

PS your second referendum suggestion makes sense - it offers a real and simple choice, once a deal is made with the EU. Until that point what on earth would be a second referendum question?

 

And incidentally I see a Lib Dem is suggesting a referendum on the so called "May plan" which presumably would mean a referendum on every package of proposals we make ... unless anyone really believes the "May plan" is a shoe-in with the EU.

 

(Sorry this was a reply to Uly on an earlier post which II failed to quote)

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

12 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

The European Commission would agree with you, but I don't think British voters would suddenly become fans of EU membership if Brussels acquired powers to dictate domestic tax policy.

 

As to what you consider to be scaremongering, tariffs are a very real competitive threat, and they're not the only one.  If you introduce the administrative difficulties and delays associated with cross-border traffic, then the just-in-time supply chains of a lot of British businesses will be compromised or rendered ineffective.  That's not scaremongering, it's what will happen.

 

The Uly post I was just replying to

[Mikey1874]

So May and others are fighting off all the infighting and different views in her own government, having to work within the limits of Parliament which is broadly Remain / keep most of current EU AND get agreement from EU including Ireland.

 

And that's before considering satisfying DUP which is a key player because of Govt majority and the situation in Ireland including power sharing. And massive pressure from business including financial services. 

 

And the key pressure to do something about immigration.

 

Easy - Deal will be done. But it will be pretty close to what we have now.  

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Mikey1874

[Victorian]

Brexit minister Steve Baker's response to this latest chaos is....

 

'but but but... John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn are the real threat'.

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, Victorian said:

Brexit minister Steve Baker's response to this latest chaos is....

 

'but but but... John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn are the real threat'.

 

 

[Victorian]

Andrea Leadsom

 

"The people of this country knew exactly what they were voting for"

 

 

Wow.

[Norm]

7 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Andrea Leadsom

 

"The people of this country knew exactly what they were voting for"

 

 

Wow.

If we end up getting some deal that leaves us in the EU in all but name, I'll laugh my ****** off. 

[Victorian]

This is the same pro-Brexit Andrea Leadsom who sees no need to resign from a government which has attempted to steer towards a very soft Brexit,    whilst at the same time still trying everything to portray it as satisfying every 'red line' of a hard Brexit,  whilst at the same time attempting to justify all of the consequences as voted for by a fully informed,  cognisant and clairvoyant public.     

[Boris]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Or we could end up as a "new Switzerland", where the country actually has so much of other nations cash swilling around in it that everyone is well off, guess we'll find out soon enough

 

Hahahahahahahaha - guid yin!

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

These proposals therefore lead directly to a worst-of-all-worlds “Black Hole” Brexit where the UK is stuck permanently as a vassal state in the EU’s legal and regulatory tar-pit, still has to obey EU laws and ECJ rulings across vast areas, cannot develop an effective international trade policy or adapt our economy to take advantage of the freedoms of Brexit, and has lost its vote and treaty veto rights as an EU Member State.

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

These proposals therefore lead directly to a worst-of-all-worlds “Black Hole” Brexit where the UK is stuck permanently as a vassal state in the EU’s legal and regulatory tar-pit, still has to obey EU laws and ECJ rulings across vast areas, cannot develop an effective international trade policy or adapt our economy to take advantage of the freedoms of Brexit, and has lost its vote and treaty veto rights as an EU Member State.

 

Hi Jacob, hiya pal!

[Mikey1874]

28 minutes ago, Victorian said:

This is the same pro-Brexit Andrea Leadsom who sees no need to resign from a government which has attempted to steer towards a very soft Brexit,    whilst at the same time still trying everything to portray it as satisfying every 'red line' of a hard Brexit,  whilst at the same time attempting to justify all of the consequences as voted for by a fully informed,  cognisant and clairvoyant public.     

 

Good summary. 

 

Especially like the clairvoyant bit. 

[Mikey1874]

14 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

These proposals therefore lead directly to a worst-of-all-worlds “Black Hole” Brexit where the UK is stuck permanently as a vassal state in the EU’s legal and regulatory tar-pit, still has to obey EU laws and ECJ rulings across vast areas, cannot develop an effective international trade policy or adapt our economy to take advantage of the freedoms of Brexit, and has lost its vote and treaty veto rights as an EU Member State.

 

Free trade is the single most factor leading  to improved living standards. 

 

Failing to invest in more disadvantaged communities - including the ones with the lowest immigration who voted most for Brexit is an entirely different matter.

 

The two things have been connected in this debate but are entirely separate and a failure of the political class in the UK not the EU.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Good summary. 

 

Especially like the clairvoyant bit. 

 

The arrogance and dishonesty are staggering.

 

The public are offered up as some kind of expertly competent signatories of Brexit to justify the chaos.

 

But let's ask the public again to decide upon the outcomes.

 

Nut.    Parliament alone must decide.

 

The public.     Conveniently competent to decide upon the undertaking of probably the most profoundly important and complicated act of parliament.      Conveniently unnecessary in any decision making process thereafter.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Its all falling apart spectacularly. And she still has the problem with the Irish border and the DUP scum.   Thatll be the nail in any coffin 

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

This is the same pro-Brexit Andrea Leadsom who sees no need to resign from a government which has attempted to steer towards a very soft Brexit,    whilst at the same time still trying everything to portray it as satisfying every 'red line' of a hard Brexit,  whilst at the same time attempting to justify all of the consequences as voted for by a fully informed,  cognisant and clairvoyant public.     

 

[doctor jambo]

52 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Hi Jacob, hiya pal!

Boris, this is what the "public" asked for- a complete exit

the political classes of all colours don't want it, and are desperately trying to not leave

I am a remainer, I like Europe- all the peoples of Europe, and in fact the wider world and I like immigration of all races and colours and wish it to continue.

However,  I understand that democracy wants us to leave-  I lost , so we must go- and totally leave, then forge our own path- including a hard border in Ireland.

If NI refuses that border, then they can hold a referendum of their own- as we did- stay or go- they must have a border somewhere.

If they choose to stay open with the Republic then they leave the rUK

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Boris, this is what the "public" asked for- a complete exit

the political classes of all colours don't want it, and are desperately trying to not leave

I am a remainer, I like Europe- all the peoples of Europe, and in fact the wider world and I like immigration of all races and colours and wish it to continue.

However,  I understand that democracy wants us to leave-  I lost , so we must go- and totally leave, then forge our own path- including a hard border in Ireland.

If NI refuses that border, then they can hold a referendum of their own- as we did- stay or go- they must have a border somewhere.

If they choose to stay open with the Republic then they leave the rUK

 

Whilst i don't really disagree with what you have written, I would say that I'm not sure that's what was actually voted for, because what leaving would entail was never ever scrutinised or laid out to the electorate.

 

That was my point to Jake, this whole gig is a scam!

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Whilst i don't really disagree with what you have written, I would say that I'm not sure that's what was actually voted for, because what leaving would entail was never ever scrutinised or laid out to the electorate.

 

That was my point to Jake, this whole gig is a scam!

Its one of the problems with democracy

The US are finding this out with Trump

 

The difference being that in our case we have voted for something that in  a few years we don't get to vote to change it

 

A majority have voted for something permanent that cannot be reversed by a general election.

 

We cannot tread water until the next GE to get rid ( sadly)

 

And of course the public did not understand- the issue was far too complex to put to an electorate, unless it was made clear at the start that "out" was a hard brexit we just leave and try and cope vs we stay all in

 

The Scottish ref suffered from a similar fudge with the indy lot trying to make it look like we could cherry pick,

and the brexiters did the same

in both instances it was inherently flawed- with the leavers in both instances lacking the courage to go all in

 

Had "yes" won in Scotland the same would have happened- currency/borders/customs/security and asset fights

[doctor jambo]

And the Tories are reaping the mess they sowed - they should have said "hard brexit " if leave wins- then they don't have to negotiate feck all

 

they shot themselves

 

it was a catastrophic error