Hard Brexit

[Norm]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

That is a Remainer view. There are different interpretations. Then there is the real world. Parliament votes 85% to hold a referendum then even before the Leave terms are agreed decides to withdraw the Article 50 notice that the electorate voted for and we were told by no less than the PM would be issued the day after the vote. And if, as in their present mood seems likely,, the EU decides to punish the UK for the temerity of trying to leave (eg remove the various opt outs we have been granted over the years) ... what do we do - appeal to the European Courts.

If many MPs are happy to commit political suicide, and see Parliament itself lose any shred of credibility it still has, then it is true Parliament could vote to try to simply withdraw the Article50 notice. In the real world it is a non-runner.

You asked if staying in is an option. It might not be an easy option but the option is most definitely there. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

14 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

and ironically those low earners will be the ones who will mostly suffer from leaving.  They wont get their duty free fags, free mobile date roaming and also be at the back of any queues when going " to Europe" ( ie Benidorm et al) 

[Victorian]

Discounting the possibility of another vote in order to rescue the country from catastrophic damage to the economy and livelihoods on the basis of some sort of notional democratic outrage really does take the biscuit of imbecility.     

[jake]

16 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

But fair. He literally doesn't care about the consequences one teeny, tiny bit.

 

@jake: your "kick in the baws of the establishment" has helped the establishment like it's never been helped before, and kicked the poor in the baws like they've never been kicked before.

 

Congrats. 

By the way Shaun.

I do give a shit.

I've got children.

They and I live here.

And pay taxes.

 

So wind yer neck in.

 

[John Findlay]

18 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Oh the mooth has got her gobby view on this. She's never one to miss any publicity.  She must think that her opinion matters to her London Task masters. She really is a b***

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/ruth-davidson-calls-on-tories-to-back-pm-on-brexit-after-boris-johnson-quits-1-4766294

She knows she will never be first minister. Therefore she is angling for a seat in the Conservative cabinet at Westminster. 

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 Apologies. I misread your post. Thankfully I haven’t ****ed the country as a result of misinterpretation.  Feel free to counter anything I’ve put in there by the way.  

You mean your view that earnings are proportionate to intelligence or vice veras? I assume you have never been in bars where the City boys and girls gather  to bray after work (and their equivalents in George Street).

And of course the 85% of MPs who decided to hold the referendum were overwhelming intelligent on your measure.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

Shameful the attitudes on here.

A Tory party unable to govern and some of you turn on the thick working class.

 

Arseholes

Surely you mean " thick " working class .?  Your comment reads as if you believe the working class are " thick".  Maybe think before you write. As for being " snobby" I object to morons who were allowed to vote in Brexit who usually stated it was because " there was too much Immigration"..  and " lets take back control".    ..Racist morons who contributed to the Leave vote. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

She knows she will never be first minister. Therefore she is angling for a seat in the Conservative cabinet at Westminster. 

True 

[jake]

So can anybody give some hard facts how brexit has feked the country?

 

That the Tory party are unable to govern the democratic will of the people is something they should be held accountable for.

 

Not democracy.

[shaun.lawson]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

Shameful the attitudes on here.

A Tory party unable to govern and some of you turn on the thick working class.

 

Arseholes

 

No Jake. You turned on the working class by voting AGAINST THEIR INTERESTS. And you continue to defend that vote now. 

[Captain Sausage]

8 minutes ago, jake said:

In what way is the country feked?

 

Because right now Europe suffers from a rise in fascism not the UK.

Employment has not suffered.

 

Jobs are still being created.

 

This blind screeching about factless guardian scare stories is laughable.

 Every forecast shows a big hit for our growth specifically because of Brexit. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967

 

It’s not rocket science, we will be worse off because of this. 

[jake]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

Surely you mean " thick " working class .?  Your comment reads as if you believe the working class are " thick".  Maybe think before you write. As for being " snobby" I object to morons who were allowed to vote in Brexit who usually stated it was because " there was too much Immigration"..  and " lets take back control".    ..Racist morons who contributed to the Leave vote. 

Of course racists voted.

Because there are racists.

Would you only allow people who subscribe to your views to vote.

Grow up.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, jake said:

So can anybody give some hard facts how brexit has feked the country?

 

That the Tory party are unable to govern the democratic will of the people is something they should be held accountable for.

 

Not democracy.

 

We've given you hard facts again, and again, and again, and again. Your response is to ignore them, call me or Uly arrogant, make up strawmen about us calling Brexiteers 'racist' (which no-one ever has), and just keep parroting the same old guff.

 

As Uly entreated much earlier in this thread: watch the news, will ya?

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No Jake. You turned on the working class by voting AGAINST THEIR INTERESTS. And you continue to defend that vote now. 

Exactly 

[Captain Sausage]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You mean your view that earnings are proportionate to intelligence or vice veras? I assume you have never been in bars where the City boys and girls gather  to bray after work (and their equivalents in George Street).

And of course the 85% of MPs who decided to hold the referendum were overwhelming intelligent on your measure.

 

 

So you disagree that intelligence and earnings are correlated?

 

Or do you disagree that a majority of MPs voted remain?

 

I’m not sure I get your point?

[Captain Sausage]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

We've given you hard facts again, and again, and again, and again. Your response is to ignore them, call me or Uly arrogant, make up strawmen about us calling Brexiteers 'racist' (which no-one ever has), and just keep parroting the same old guff.

 

As Uly entreated much earlier in this thread: watch the news, will ya?

 

 not often I agree with you Shaun. But I do here. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

Of course racists voted.

Because there are racists.

Would you only allow people who subscribe to your views to vote.

Grow up.

Yes they voted on immigration without thinking about the economic repercussions of leaving the EU as long as we didn't allow any more Jonny foreigners in...especially the " darker type " ones.  

[jake]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No Jake. You turned on the working class by voting AGAINST THEIR INTERESTS. And you continue to defend that vote now. 

No I didn't.

You may think that but you have not a jot of evidence other than what you think may happen.

And I don't just have a view on British working people.

You say you are a European yet ignore the chronic unemployment across southern Europe.

You yourself have argued against the Euro.

So come on some hard facts on how this has affected the working class .

And not some made up story like you did the last time enabled by the guardian.

I live here Shaun .

I pay my taxes for our health service.

You don't even contribute.

?

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Cameron campaigned to remain using all the facilities available (at tax payers expense) to scare people into remaining in the EU. Time after time he and all the remain team said leave means leave out the CU and SM. Time after time they made no mention of soft or hard brexit. Leave was leave. And still they lost. May is the one who has lied and connived to usurp the democratic vote into an unworkable fudge the the EU will still kb. 

 

The piece I quoted earlier was written by a QC who specialises in constitutional and EU Law so the smart alec response was poor by your standards my communist friend.

 

I read JRM the other day basically saying what you said verbatim. Apologies I got your source wrong!

[jake]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes they voted on immigration without thinking about the economic repercussions of leaving the EU as long as we didn't allow any more Jonny foreigners in...especially the " darker type " ones.  

So what are these repercussions.

We were warned by the chancellor of the exchequer no less that taxes would rise if we dared to vote brexit.

Just one of the many lies and scaremongering stories told to us.

 

And please the only time I hear Johnny foreigner and darker chat is from remainers.

Really pathetic stuff and dumb downs the arguments .

[jake]

So is there any hard facts about the detrimental effects of brexit?

 

 

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, jake said:

So is there any hard facts about the detrimental effects of brexit?

 

 

 

The whole thing about us leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world without a single trade deal in place doesn’t make you think we will be worse off?

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 Every forecast shows a big hit for our growth specifically because of Brexit. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967

 

It’s not rocket science, we will be worse off because of this. 

Even the rather dated article you quote contradicts your "every forecast" statement. 

[JackLadd]

Just now, houstonjambo said:

 

The whole thing about us leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world without a single trade deal in place doesn’t make you think we will be worse off?

 

The SNP are quite happy to put a border up with England and rest of UK. They are so dumb maybe they think they can negotiate their own trade deals inside the eu. 

[Hasselhoff]

18 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Social media must be inoperative where’s she’s holidaying 

 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/ruthdavidsonmsp/status/1016341863824003072

[Captain Sausage]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Even the rather dated article you quote contradicts your "every forecast" statement. 

 

 

The farcical pro leave estimates are absolute fantasy. They’re not even credible enough to call forecasts. 

 

We will leave with a hard border between the Irelands and no trade deal. Quite how we will be better off under that circumstance, I’m not sure. 

[shaun.lawson]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

No I didn't.

You may think that but you have not a jot of evidence other than what you think may happen.

And I don't just have a view on British working people.

You say you are a European yet ignore the chronic unemployment across southern Europe.

You yourself have argued against the Euro.

So come on some hard facts on how this has affected the working class .

And not some made up story like you did the last time enabled by the guardian.

I live here Shaun .

I pay my taxes for our health service.

You don't even contribute.

?

 

I pay NI contributions, so yes, I do contribute thankyou. Beyond that: listen very carefully, I shall say this only once more.

 

WE ARE NOT PART OF THE EURO AND WE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PART OF THE EURO

 

So every single time you mention the euro, it's utterly irrelevant to the UK. Yet still, you sit there, acting like you somehow know better than the 500m people across the EU who, unlike us, don't want to leave.

 

Why is that Jake? Why don't they want to leave? Surely it couldn't be, could it, that they don't fancy emulating our decision, cheered on by the likes of you, to commit national self-harm just for the hell of it?

 

Many a time, I read your posts on this and I think: "He thinks this is all a game. He hasn't thought through any of the consequences at all. He thinks it's just a laugh".

 

Well, it's not. And the poorest will bear the brunt of it. 

[JackLadd]

1 minute ago, houstonjambo said:

 

 

The farcical pro leave estimates are absolute fantasy. They’re not even credible enough to call forecasts. 

 

We will leave with a hard border between the Irelands and no trade deal. Quite how we will be better off under that circumstance, I’m not sure. 

 

 

There is a bigger picture beyond trade and much much wrong with the EU.  

[Seymour M Hersh]

6 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

The whole thing about us leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world without a single trade deal in place doesn’t make you think we will be worse off?

 

Has project fears assertions the economy would collapse if the referendum voted leave happened? No they have not. Everything the remainers predicted would happen has in fact not happened. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

 

The farcical pro leave estimates are absolute fantasy. They’re not even credible enough to call forecasts. 

 

We will leave with a hard border between the Irelands and no trade deal. Quite how we will be better off under that circumstance, I’m not sure. 

 

So you are surely not so clueless you believe all trade will cease the morning after? Surely not. Did you believe planes would fall to the skies at Y2K as well? 

[jake]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I pay NI contributions, so yes, I do contribute thankyou. Beyond that: listen very carefully, I shall say this only once more.

 

WE ARE NOT PART OF THE EURO AND WE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PART OF THE EURO

 

So every single time you mention the euro, it's utterly irrelevant to the UK. Yet still, you sit there, acting like you somehow know better than the 500m people across the EU who, unlike us, don't want to leave.

 

Why is that Jake? Why don't they want to leave? Surely it couldn't be, could it, that they don't fancy emulating our decision, cheered on by the likes of you, to commit national self-harm just for the hell of it?

 

Many a time, I read your posts on this and I think: "He thinks this is all a game. He hasn't thought through any of the consequences at all. He thinks it's just a laugh".

 

Well, it's not. And the poorest will bear the brunt of it. 

Any evidence to support brexit harming the poor?

[Francis Albert]

25 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

So you disagree that intelligence and earnings are correlated?

 

Or do you disagree that a majority of MPs voted remain?

 

I’m not sure I get your point?

You seem to equate IQs and intelligence but for me common sense and other broader characteristics are important elements of intelligence. The Nazi leaders were all highly intelligent as were most of the Soviet leaders. They also had somewhat similar views as you seem to have about whose opinions and votes should count.

 

And I didn't say anything about the majority of MPs voting Remain. I am sure they did but this intelligent body voted 85% to hold the referendum, one of the stupidest decisions made by Parliament, which is saying something.

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Captain Sausage]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

There is a bigger picture beyond trade and much much wrong with the EU.  

 Agree. But reform within the EU is far easier than the shambles we are going through now. 

 

The EU will tell us to ram any type of deal, they have nothing to gain by negotiating with us. So we will be turfed out, no deal and hard borders which will cost far more than we our net contributions to the EU. 

[jake]

20 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

We've given you hard facts again, and again, and again, and again. Your response is to ignore them, call me or Uly arrogant, make up strawmen about us calling Brexiteers 'racist' (which no-one ever has), and just keep parroting the same old guff.

 

As Uly entreated much earlier in this thread: watch the news, will ya?

No you have given forecasts.

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

You seem to equate IQs and intelligence but for me common sense and other broader characteristics are important elements of intelligence. The Nazi leaders were all highly intelligent as were most of the Soviet leaders. They also had somewhat similar views as you seem to have about whose opinions and votes should count.

 

 

So common sense is more prevalent in those with lower intelligence? Is that what we are saying? Yet to get any feedback on the majority of MPs voting to remain...

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, jake said:

No you have given forecasts.

 

You cant provide facts for things that haven’t yet happened. 

 

If you jump off a 100m cliff, you can’t say you’ll die when you land until you land. It’s a reasonable forecast that you will die. Equally you could speculate that you’ll walk away unscathed. I know which I’d expect. 

[Captain Sausage]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

So you are surely not so clueless you believe all trade will cease the morning after? Surely not. Did you believe planes would fall to the skies at Y2K as well? 

 

Havent said it would. You’re not so clueless to suggest we will be trading on the same favourable terms come March next year?

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, houstonjambo said:

 

You cant provide facts for things that haven’t yet happened. 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

[JackLadd]

2 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 Agree. But reform within the EU is far easier than the shambles we are going through now. 

 

The EU will tell us to ram any type of deal, they have nothing to gain by negotiating with us. So we will be turfed out, no deal and hard borders which will cost far more than we our net contributions to the EU. 

 

Net contributions are nudging towards 10bn a year so you must be expecting a huge shrinkage in trade. WTO rules mean minimal tariffs. The Eurocrats are crying to Trump about wto being breached. 

[jake]

4 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

So common sense is more prevalent in those with lower intelligence? Is that what we are saying? Yet to get any feedback on the majority of MPs voting to remain...

So the working class of northern England have no understanding of politics?

 

 

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, jake said:

Thank you.

 

 

Ignoring the rest of my post eh?

 

Exactly the type of behavior I referred to earlier. 

 

The overwhelming majority of economists forecast we will be SIGNIFICANTLY worse off after Brexit. These are only estimates, but based on the best information available. 

[Captain Sausage]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

Net contributions are nudging towards 10bn a year so you must be expecting a huge shrinkage in trade. WTO rules mean minimal tariffs. The Eurocrats are crying to Trump about wto being breached. 

 

In 2016, we did £240bn in trade with the EU. So a mere 3% reduction or increase in tariff (farcically overoptimistic) would see us worse off. 

[jake]

2 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

Ignoring the rest of my post eh?

 

Exactly the type of behavior I referred to earlier. 

 

The overwhelming majority of economists forecast we will be SIGNIFICANTLY worse off after Brexit. These are only estimates, but based on the best information available. 

Not ignoring it just reposting the relevant part.

 

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

So common sense is more prevalent in those with lower intelligence? Is that what we are saying? Yet to get any feedback on the majority of MPs voting to remain...

See my edit to my last response.

 

As for intelligence and common sense - I don't think from my experience there is a great correlation

[JackLadd]

3 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

In 2016, we did £240bn in trade with the EU. So a mere 3% reduction or increase in tariff (farcically overoptimistic) would see us worse off. 

 

3% is a gross figure. Once you get into what is actually collected in taxation it would need a lot more than 3%. Also, bear in mind any tariffs will be reciprocated. I think we have a deficit worth 60bn with them. They are going to be more affected. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by JackLadd

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

See my edit to my last response.

 

As for intelligence and common sense - I don't think from my experience there is a great correlation

 

Fair enough edit

 

Anecdotal evidence eh?

 

Again, it’s pretty commonly accepted that intelligence and earnings are loosely correlated. 

[Captain Sausage]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

3% is a gross figure. Once you get into what is actually collected in taxation it would need a lot more than 3%. Also, bear in mind any tariffs will be reciprocated. I think we have a deficit worth 60bn with them. They are going to be more affected. 

 

The EU will be worse off than us? Sorry, I absolutely refuse to accept that. Can you provide some figures to back up that assertion?

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

See my edit to my last response.

 

As for intelligence and common sense - I don't think from my experience there is a great correlation

 

Me either, given I've no doubt you're a very intelligent chap.  

[Captain Sausage]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

Not ignoring it just reposting the relevant part.

 

 

So it’s your understanding that it’s impossible to know what comes next. Under any circumstance. Because it hasn’t happened yet. 

 

Cool. 

Edited July 9, 2018 by houstonjambo

[...a bit disco]

"Attention all rats. Your ship is sinking. I repeat, your ship is SINKING!"