Hard Brexit

[JamboX2]

5 hours ago, jake said:

Woah.

Can't have it both ways ?

 

I'm talking about people with money influencing politics.

Are you seriously holding up the EU as an example of not pandering to high finance?

 

The idea you can conflate the EU with this is utterly nuts. The EU has recently sanctioned the likes of Amazon and Google on tax. Has threatened Facebook and is united against Trump's attempts to undermine EU business and jobs.

 

The EU is also acting in tandem in protecting us from dirty money poisoning our politics and democracy.

 

We have been the warning sign. The whole murky dealings of Leave.EU-Farage-Banks-Cambridge Analytica and folk like Oakeshott hiding it is an affront to democracy and liberal values. How is that in anyway comprable? 

 

5 hours ago, jake said:

 

Shall I spam this thread with countless examples?

 

Do as you please. None are as insidious as the mob you bought into.

 

5 hours ago, jake said:

 

For the millionth time just because I'm anti EU does not mean I support the Tories.

 

Didn't suggest you were. Banks, Farage etc aren't Tories either. But you've backed them.

 

5 hours ago, jake said:

I had hoped when I answered your post that it would lead to an honest assessment.

It's actually you who wants it both ways.

 

 

No. No. Again you backed Brexit and have on here argued it isn't right to argue that the vote was bought or dark arts and dirty money used. The work of diligent journalists at the Guardian and Observor in Caroline Cadwaller is showing this up to be a very murky doing. Which has split the nation, threatened the economic security of millions and the unity of the UK. 

[JamboX2]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

The Scotland powers part of the Brexit bill was supposed to have proper time scheduled to it.

The Govt decided to tack it on to the end of the marathon day yesterday. (which is itself a huge topic for discussion, as the most important thing the nation has ever done was rushed through the Commons in a single day by a corrupt Govt)

By the time it came around to it, there was only 15 minutes left to have questions, a debate and a vote on any matters raised re Scotland. 

 

Shambles. Using the rules they have is nuts.

 

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

All of that time was the filibustered by the Scottish Secretary so nothing could be done.

SNP used the most high profile part of today to make a point.

 

Brexit is turning into a right wing coup and the devolution settlement is at risk.

 

Indeed! But equally flouncing out does nothing.

[Space Mackerel]

This is FAF.

 

 

The coupon is a joy to behold.  

[jake]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The idea you can conflate the EU with this is utterly nuts. The EU has recently sanctioned the likes of Amazon and Google on tax. Has threatened Facebook and is united against Trump's attempts to undermine EU business and jobs.

 

The EU is also acting in tandem in protecting us from dirty money poisoning our politics and democracy.

 

We have been the warning sign. The whole murky dealings of Leave.EU-Farage-Banks-Cambridge Analytica and folk like Oakeshott hiding it is an affront to democracy and liberal values. How is that in anyway comprable? 

 

 

Do as you please. None are as insidious as the mob you bought into.

 

 

Didn't suggest you were. Banks, Farage etc aren't Tories either. But you've backed them.

 

 

No. No. Again you backed Brexit and have on here argued it isn't right to argue that the vote was bought or dark arts and dirty money used. The work of diligent journalists at the Guardian and Observor in Caroline Cadwaller is showing this up to be a very murky doing. Which has split the nation, threatened the economic security of millions and the unity of the UK. 

Oh yes what a wonderfully easy argument.

I backed Farage because I want the UK to leave an organisation which promised to report every 2 years on corruption.

There has been no release of these reports since 2014.

 

Estimates are over 120 billion pounds cost to the European economy due to Brussels corruption.

Annually.

And this is a conservative estimate.

 

It is rife in some member states with beaurocrats asking for bribes.

The UK incidentally has the lowest number of these incidents.

 

So talk about the impartial (aye right then guardian) bringing to light the murky backers of the brexit campaign.

 

But at least be honest .

Because it's a drop in the ocean compared to the financial theft the insidious and corrupt EU practices.

 

You voted to preserve an institution ran by an elite for the elite.

But I know you didn't vote for that.

 

I voted to leave that does not mean I vote for Farage.

And those type of cheap shots along with others who refuse to validate the leave vote are the ones who are splitting the nation.

And who at every turn almost wish for bad news.

[151]

2 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

I bloody hope so. Scrap the Holyrood farce. Waste of money and horribly divisive.

 

Achieved nothing for Scotland.

 

 

 

[Grumpy]

2 hours ago, jake said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465639

 

But but how can this be surely the EU protects workers .

Who would have thought a simple prole from the UK could ever manage to take a stand.

 

There's no history of the UK and it's thick working class doing this is there.

I mean according to some on here only the EU has delivered.

 

?

Don't know what point you think your making but your "prole" has managed to get the UK supreme court to agree that he is a worker and therefor entitled to workers rights enshrined in EU law. Not the first time someone from the UK has won a verdict confirming their rights.

 

Probably better links out there but this will do....

From 2014

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4908

"A ruling by the ECJ in an earlier case already laid down the principle that holiday pay should reflect 'the normal remuneration' received by a worker."

 

Or how about the working time directive so despised by Rees Mogg and his pals

"The EU gives workers the right to 20 paid days off, but the UK government has increased the entitlement to 28. The EU Working Time Directive, originally introduced in 1993, gives workers the right to “paid annual leave of at least four weeks”

Great that the UK has increased the holiday entitlement above the minimum, just a shame large chunks of the workforce haven't been entitled to any paid leave at all.

 

And then there's this - an example of the UK Government at work ....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-sick-pay-legislation-eu-law-breach-council-europe-social-charter-a8176396.html

Damned red tape - at least we'll be able to ignore these type of rulings in the not too distant future. The spivs will love it.

 

[Space Mackerel]

Moogster is having none of this Full English Brexit he pontificates about.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/38987fe2-6f19-11e8-92d3-6c13e5c92914

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Moogster is having none of this Full English Brexit he pontificates about.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/38987fe2-6f19-11e8-92d3-6c13e5c92914

It's his financial backstop. 

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

It's his financial backstop. 

 

??

[Grumpy]

20 minutes ago, jake said:

Oh yes what a wonderfully easy argument.

I backed Farage because I want the UK to leave an organisation which promised to report every 2 years on corruption.

There has been no release of these reports since 2014.

 

Estimates are over 120 billion pounds cost to the European economy due to Brussels corruption.

Annually.

And this is a conservative estimate.

 

It is rife in some member states with beaurocrats asking for bribes.

The UK incidentally has the lowest number of these incidents.

 

So talk about the impartial (aye right then guardian) bringing to light the murky backers of the brexit campaign.

 

But at least be honest .

Because it's a drop in the ocean compared to the financial theft the insidious and corrupt EU practices.

 

You voted to preserve an institution ran by an elite for the elite.

But I know you didn't vote for that.

 

I voted to leave that does not mean I vote for Farage.

And those type of cheap shots along with others who refuse to validate the leave vote are the ones who are splitting the nation.

And who at every turn almost wish for bad news.

£90 Billion a year laundered through London though. To be fair it does look like they are attempting to do something about it but time will tell.

Have to say that I find it amazing how many Tories / Brexit backers are being linked to Russia now - wonder if that will ever be investigated.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/twt/london-money-laundering-capital

 

If your interested here's the transparency international corruption index to 2017 - the UK was 8th in 2017, not the best but certainly not the worst. Certainly a few surprises within the EU but as the money laundering capital of the world, the UK will be facilitating a good portion of the dodgy EU activity.

https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017

[jake]

32 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

£90 Billion a year laundered through London though. To be fair it does look like they are attempting to do something about it but time will tell.

Have to say that I find it amazing how many Tories / Brexit backers are being linked to Russia now - wonder if that will ever be investigated.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/twt/london-money-laundering-capital

 

If your interested here's the transparency international corruption index to 2017 - the UK was 8th in 2017, not the best but certainly not the worst. Certainly a few surprises within the EU but as the money laundering capital of the world, the UK will be facilitating a good portion of the dodgy EU activity.

https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017

As a major finance centre on the world stage I'm not surprised London launders the amount.

The point about the EU is the beaurocratic corruption.

Bribes given for procurement of public money contracts.

 

Political corruption.

 

Any way I am not defending the Tories and I am well aware that shady business goes on everywhere.

But x2 wishes to attack my vote as a vote for corruption .

 

 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Grumpy said:

Don't know what point you think your making but your "prole" has managed to get the UK supreme court to agree that he is a worker and therefor entitled to workers rights enshrined in EU law. Not the first time someone from the UK has won a verdict confirming their rights.

 

Probably better links out there but this will do....

From 2014

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4908

"A ruling by the ECJ in an earlier case already laid down the principle that holiday pay should reflect 'the normal remuneration' received by a worker."

 

Or how about the working time directive so despised by Rees Mogg and his pals

"The EU gives workers the right to 20 paid days off, but the UK government has increased the entitlement to 28. The EU Working Time Directive, originally introduced in 1993, gives workers the right to “paid annual leave of at least four weeks”

Great that the UK has increased the holiday entitlement above the minimum, just a shame large chunks of the workforce haven't been entitled to any paid leave at all.

 

And then there's this - an example of the UK Government at work ....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-sick-pay-legislation-eu-law-breach-council-europe-social-charter-a8176396.html

Damned red tape - at least we'll be able to ignore these type of rulings in the not too distant future. The spivs will love it.

 

My point was that this man's determination saw a victory for his rights.

That the working people in this country always have fought for and gained rights.

 

If you believe the EU delivers fairer rights for workers then you are wrong.

Ultimately EU law favours big business.

 

I've posted links to you before about this.

[Grumpy]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

My point was that this man's determination saw a victory for his rights.

That the working people in this country always have fought for and gained rights.

 

If you believe the EU delivers fairer rights for workers then you are wrong.

Ultimately EU law favours big business.

 

I've posted links to you before about this.

People in every country have fought for, gained and occasionally lost rights. What this guy did doesn't make the UK exceptional (money permitting - a lot more would take on Governments, Companies etc and win) 

 

Which government doesn't favour big business - certainly not a Tory one. No I'm not wrong, the EU has added to the rights of workers in this country. The likes of Rees Mogg, Duncan Smith and the posh boys are the ones talking about eliminating red tape (aka inconvenient employment laws)

 

First time I've posted on this thread and indeed in a long time - you certainly haven't posted any links for me.

[Grumpy]

19 minutes ago, jake said:

As a major finance centre on the world stage I'm not surprised London launders the amount.

The point about the EU is the beaurocratic corruption.

Bribes given for procurement of public money contracts.

 

Political corruption.

 

Any way I am not defending the Tories and I am well aware that shady business goes on everywhere.

But x2 wishes to attack my vote as a vote for corruption .

 

 

I work preventing corruption and promoting ethics. Its my job. I understand the forms of corruption and unfair advantage reasonably well / the concepts are quite simple.

 

The EU is not perfect and some Countries are certainly worse than others but, thats our neighbourhood, our closest market and the one that we are geared up to do business with. Its also one of the biggest and richest markets  in the world. Better to be in, influencing legislation than out and taking what we're told to do - legislation that will now be shaped without our input but with the input of all those countries that you appear to consider  ethically inferior.

 

But hey, lets do business with much more distant regions such as the middle east, with Africa or with Asia instead. All paragons of ethical virtue. If those are not acceptable, how about Canada, New Zealand or Australia - great idea, except they won't exactly replace the trade we have with the EU. All thats left then is Antartica or the protectionist USA. 

 

Your believe what you want, meanwhile the rest of us will engage with reality.

 

[jake]

12 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

People in every country have fought for, gained and occasionally lost rights. What this guy did doesn't make the UK exceptional (money permitting - a lot more would take on Governments, Companies etc and win) 

 

Which government doesn't favour big business - certainly not a Tory one. No I'm not wrong, the EU has added to the rights of workers in this country. The likes of Rees Mogg, Duncan Smith and the posh boys are the ones talking about eliminating red tape (aka inconvenient employment laws)

 

First time I've posted on this thread and indeed in a long time - you certainly haven't posted any links for me.

Sorry I thought I had.

 

I am not saying the UK is the only place.

My post was in response and a dig at some posters on this thread who have dismissed particularly the English working class as thick .

 

If you count the EU and it's central bank as a provider of workers rights you should examine the austerity it imposed on Greece.

Makes the Tories here look like social workers.

25% cuts to it's health service.

Infant mortality up by 20%

 

Rees Mogg and his cronies are disadvantaged in a way the EU can and will never be.

 

Democracy.

If you or I vote in a labour mep will he make a difference to the austerity measures practiced by the EU.

Can he propose legislation ?

 

Brexit does not mean carte Blanche for the Tories.

Being part of the EU does not protect us from a conservative government.

 

[jake]

6 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

I work preventing corruption and promoting ethics. Its my job. I understand the forms of corruption and unfair advantage reasonably well / the concepts are quite simple.

 

The EU is not perfect and some Countries are certainly worse than others but, thats our neighbourhood, our closest market and the one that we are geared up to do business with. Its also one of the biggest and richest markets  in the world. Better to be in, influencing legislation than out and taking what we're told to do - legislation that will now be shaped without our input but with the input of all those countries that you appear to consider  ethically inferior.

 

But hey, lets do business with much more distant regions such as the middle east, with Africa or with Asia instead. All paragons of ethical virtue. If those are not acceptable, how about Canada, New Zealand or Australia - great idea, except they won't exactly replace the trade we have with the EU. All thats left then is Antartica or the protectionist USA. 

 

Your believe what you want, meanwhile the rest of us will engage with reality.

 

Another poster who can't help but insult when arguing.

The reality is this .

Our trade is worth more to the powerhouse of Europe (Germany) to them than us.

The reality is that emerging economies around the world are out performing the EU.

And not being part of the EU doesn't mean I condone corruption anywhere else.

The EU deals with these markets and it's member states including ours sells arms to some of the worst and brutal regimes.

 

The reality I am well aware of and just because I disagree with you does not mean I will insult you.

 

A common theme amongst remain voters I've noticed.

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, jake said:

Oh yes what a wonderfully easy argument.

 

It is actually. The evidence against Leave.EU and it's sponsors and allies and founders is growing daily. The facade has dropped. Now we get hyperbole about traitors from the same folk who are realising what they promised people like you is undeliverable.

 

You cannot leave in the way they promised and keep the benefits. There will be no £350 million extra a year for the NHS. It was a house of cards. Now collapsing before your eyes.

 

2 hours ago, jake said:

 

And those type of cheap shots along with others who refuse to validate the leave vote are the ones who are splitting the nation.

And who at every turn almost wish for bad news.

 

The UK has a constitutional crisis. A commons which is divided. A lords testing the limits of their powers. A cabinet seemingly divided all over on everything. Day to day issues are ignored. A devolution settlement being torn up. Political impasse in NI. And to top it off the press is whipping up hysteria over this with talk of traitors - to the extent a young man was convicted with planning to kill their MP. How is this conducive for the nation Jake? 

 

I accept that the UK has voted to leave the EU. But not reality. If we are to leave it should be on the best terms around -EEA and Customs Union. 

[JamboX2]

9 minutes ago, jake said:

Another poster who can't help but insult when arguing.

The reality is this .

Our trade is worth more to the powerhouse of Europe (Germany) to them than us.

The reality is that emerging economies around the world are out performing the EU.

And not being part of the EU doesn't mean I condone corruption anywhere else.

The EU deals with these markets and it's member states including ours sells arms to some of the worst and brutal regimes.

 

The reality I am well aware of and just because I disagree with you does not mean I will insult you.

 

A common theme amongst remain voters I've noticed.

 

In reverse order:

 

- Stop taking this personally. It's a debate on merit. And whilst the Leave side won there are huge flaws in your sides argument. 

 

- Lovely whataboutery on corruption. There are international comparisons show the EU at the top end and many of the places we are told will somehow as developing nations on the otherside of the world match our EU trade are much further down.

 

- Growth is not indicative of purchasing power. You will sell more Land Rovers in the Czech Republic than say Ecuador  because more can afford them in the first. And that matters a lot. Equally we ALREADY have a lot of deals via the EU to trade in these nations already so ask yourself - Why aren't more UK businesses doing so?

 

- The Germany point is based on looking at individual figures for national trade. If you take the total value of the remaining EU27 and compare it to the UK alone it dwarfs the UK. Not to mention the same on non-EU exports from Germany. The point is illogical Jake. Germany will still have unrestricted trade with nearly 320 million-ish consumers outside the UK and Germany. You really telling me near 65million will make a long term dent? Seriously?

 

[jake]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It is actually. The evidence against Leave.EU and it's sponsors and allies and founders is growing daily. The facade has dropped. Now we get hyperbole about traitors from the same folk who are realising what they promised people like you is undeliverable.

 

You cannot leave in the way they promised and keep the benefits. There will be no £350 million extra a year for the NHS. It was a house of cards. Now collapsing before your eyes.

 

 

The UK has a constitutional crisis. A commons which is divided. A lords testing the limits of their powers. A cabinet seemingly divided all over on everything. Day to day issues are ignored. A devolution settlement being torn up. Political impasse in NI. And to top it off the press is whipping up hysteria over this with talk of traitors - to the extent a young man was convicted with planning to kill their MP. How is this conducive for the nation Jake? 

 

I accept that the UK has voted to leave the EU. But not reality. If we are to leave it should be on the best terms around -EEA and Customs Union. 

Political opinions differ.

We were given a vote.

We voted.

It's democracy.

It's not perfect but given the level of hostility from both sides it was a bloodless revolt .

 

It's been the same with Scotland's referendum.

I voted to leave the UK .

 

You wanted to remain.

 

As for promises made by politicians about nhs money.

Well for one we have not left yet.

And for another thing we could fill these pages with broken promises.

 

As for language used against one side or another.

Traitors is pretty tame.

I've been called on here racist other leave voters are referred to as thick little englanders(the irony of posters who call them racist).

You have the Guardian with false headlines about car plants moving to Europe when in actual fact they are upgrading .

One particular poster talks of food shortages.

We had the chancellor of the exchequer saying the economy would go into freefall not just when we left but if there was a leave vote.

We can both cite shite .

 

Just because I have a different view does not make me a bad person.

Just think there's a different way to go about it.

[jake]

2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

In reverse order:

 

- Stop taking this personally. It's a debate on merit. And whilst the Leave side won there are huge flaws in your sides argument. 

 

- Lovely whataboutery on corruption. There are international comparisons show the EU at the top end and many of the places we are told will somehow as developing nations on the otherside of the world match our EU trade are much further down.

 

- Growth is not indicative of purchasing power. You will sell more Land Rovers in the Czech Republic than say Ecuador  because more can afford them in the first. And that matters a lot. Equally we ALREADY have a lot of deals via the EU to trade in these nations already so ask yourself - Why aren't more UK businesses doing so?

 

- The Germany point is based on looking at individual figures for national trade. If you take the total value of the remaining EU27 and compare it to the UK alone it dwarfs the UK. Not to mention the same on non-EU exports from Germany. The point is illogical Jake. Germany will still have unrestricted trade with nearly 320 million-ish consumers outside the UK and Germany. You really telling me near 65million will make a long term dent? Seriously?

 

I don't take it personally.

I just don't think it helps the argument.

 

The EU is corrupt and unaccountable.

And it's not just a Tory view x2.

You are a labour man and labour is split as is the nationalist vote in Scotland.

 

 

[jake]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/28/opinion/why-brexit-is-best-for-britain-the-left-wing-case.html

 

Some of it is why I voted brexit but I had other reasons as well which I have probably posted far too many times.

 

I need to get drunk and lose the plot on this thread so I can get banned.

?

[JamboX2]

20 minutes ago, jake said:

I don't take it personally.

I just don't think it helps the argument.

 

The EU is corrupt and unaccountable.

And it's not just a Tory view x2.

You are a labour man and labour is split as is the nationalist vote in Scotland.

 

 

 

Cheers for confirming my hunch that you would resort to unsubstantiated nonsense and ask me my views.

[jake]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Cheers for confirming my hunch that you would resort to unsubstantiated nonsense and ask me my views.

What's unsubstantiated? 

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

14 hours ago, Boris said:

Dont get me wrong, the EU is crying out for reform. I'd much rather we were in it leading that reform than not.

 

Quite. It drives me potty that people seem to think "the EU has some problems - therefore we're better off out", while ignoring that there are always problems, big and small, in more or less anything in life. Grown-ups try to solve them. Children point and gesticulate at them.

 

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

- Stop taking this personally. It's a debate on merit.

 

@jake - this is what I mean by you 'obsessing'. This isn't about you, or me, or anyone else. It's about something much much much bigger than that.

 

And yet... there's a fundamental trap which Remainers like myself and so so many others always fall into. I'll never agree with the UK leaving the EU because I consider it profoundly irrational. I rarely hear rational, persuasive arguments for us leaving, so always end up sounding patronising, condescending and belittling. But that helps no-one; it just makes the divisions worse.

 

Brexit is much less about reason than it is about a feeling: of both identity and insecurity. It is impossible to argue that the neoliberal status quo is supportable or should be supported. It's failed countless tens of millions - and those, like some in Labour or the Lib Dems, who think we can somehow turn back the clock to life before the referendum, simply don't have a clue.

 

This is largely why Remainers within Labour have been so wrongfooted over the last 2 years. They simply can't make powerful emotional arguments about why the EU is fundamentally for good; all they do is talk about impending national disaster instead. And that's just not enough. It just will not do to label the very many voters justifiably concerned about immigration levels as "racist" either... even if some, when pressed, do display racist or xenophobic attitudes.

 

The biggest challenge Brexit poses to the UK is in its national discourse and basic civility - which politically, have collapsed. Young, metropolitan, liberal Remainers look at older, working class Brexiteers and simply don't see that they have anything in common - and vice versa. Contempt breeds more contempt; anger breeds more anger. Remainers say they'll never forgive Corbyn for allowing us to leave; Leavers, rightly, say they'll never forgive the entire political establishment if we don't leave. It's horrendous.

 

Quite how all this is overcome with empathy, understanding, mutual respect and common ground being found, I have no idea. But it has to be. And the onus is on Remainers to lead that - because if Britain is ever to return to the EU, it has to be via the kind of vibrant, inclusive, warm, positive grassroots campaign based on communication, dialogue and non-judgementalism which just achieved so much success in Ireland... but took a generation to build up. Not the kind of top down, managerial, politics as usual, negative pish which deservedly lost Remain the referendum and landed the UK in this mess. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Quite. It drives me potty that people seem to think "the EU has some problems - therefore we're better off out", while ignoring that there are always problems, big and small, in more or less anything in life. Grown-ups try to solve them. Children point and gesticulate at them.

 

 

@jake - this is what I mean by you 'obsessing'. This isn't about you, or me, or anyone else. It's about something much much much bigger than that.

 

And yet... there's a fundamental trap which Remainers like myself and so so many others always fall into. I'll never agree with the UK leaving the EU because I consider it profoundly irrational. I rarely hear rational, persuasive arguments for us leaving, so always end up sounding patronising, condescending and belittling. But that helps no-one; it just makes the divisions worse.

 

Brexit is much less about reason than it is about a feeling: of both identity and insecurity. It is impossible to argue that the neoliberal status quo is supportable or should be supported. It's failed countless tens of millions - and those, like some in Labour or the Lib Dems, who think we can somehow turn back the clock to life before the referendum, simply don't have a clue.

 

This is largely why Remainers within Labour have been so wrongfooted over the last 2 years. They simply can't make powerful emotional arguments about why the EU is fundamentally for good; all they do is talk about impending national disaster instead. And that's just not enough. It just will not do to label the very many voters justifiably concerned about immigration levels as "racist" either... even if some, when pressed, do display racist or xenophobic attitudes.

 

The biggest challenge Brexit poses to the UK is in its national discourse and basic civility - which politically, have collapsed. Young, metropolitan, liberal Remainers look at older, working class Brexiteers and simply don't see that they have anything in common - and vice versa. Contempt breeds more contempt; anger breeds more anger. Remainers say they'll never forgive Corbyn for allowing us to leave; Leavers, rightly, say they'll never forgive the entire political establishment if we don't leave. It's horrendous.

 

Quite how all this is overcome with empathy, understanding, mutual respect and common ground being found, I have no idea. But it has to be. And the onus is on Remainers to lead that - because if Britain is ever to return to the EU, it has to be via the kind of vibrant, inclusive, warm, positive grassroots campaign based on communication, dialogue and non-judgementalism which just achieved so much success in Ireland... but took a generation to build up. Not the kind of top down, managerial, politics as usual, negative pish which deservedly lost Remain the referendum and landed the UK in this mess. 

Millions of young people voted Leave. Millions of older people voted Remain. And your description of the "national discourse" is based (as I suppose it must be from the vantage point of Uruguay and the internet) is a fantasy.. 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Millions of young people voted Leave. Millions of older people voted Remain. And your description of the "national discourse" is based (as I suppose it must be from the vantage point of Uruguay and the internet) is a fantasy.. 

 

What have you yourself been doing for weeks? You've been trying to portray Leave with any kind of viable deal at all as 'Remain'. You're just one tiny example of how reason's completely gone out of the window - and you're almost always one of the sensible ones. 

 

If you're blind to the culture wars which, having gone on in the US for decades and are more frighteningly intense than ever there, have now spread to the UK with a vengeance, that's your issue. Not mine. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

What have you yourself been doing for weeks? You've been trying to portray Leave with any kind of viable deal at all as 'Remain'. You're just one tiny example of how reason's completely gone out of the window - and you're almost always one of the sensible ones. 

 

If you're blind to the culture wars which, having gone on in the US for decades and are more frighteningly intense than ever there, have now spread to the UK with a vengeance, that's your issue. Not mine. 

On holiday. In the States as a matter of fact.. 

Gives me some sort of perspective I suppose. 

Culture wars? Frighteningly intense culture wars? More so than EVER? 

More intense than the American Civil War? 

Probably that is just "whataboutery". 

[Francis Albert]

Because I have been on holiday I haven't been on JKB much but I recently read a defence of the democratic nature of the EU that argued that the appointment of the Council of Ministers and its President was democratic because those who appointed them were democratically elected. That isn''t democracy. It is patronage. A bit like appointments to the House of Lords which is supposedly defending us against the people who voted democratically fpr Brexit.

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, jake said:

What's unsubstantiated? 

 

 

 

Corruption - you've yet to evidence it with facts. Unlike the mounting evidence against Leave.EU.

 

Unaccountable - the commission is accountable to 28 democtatic member states. It has an elected parliament to keep the commission and commissioners in check. The EU only does what its members want it to do. So again - a lot of nonsense.

[JamboX2]

31 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Because I have been on holiday I haven't been on JKB much but I recently read a defence of the democratic nature of the EU that argued that the appointment of the Council of Ministers and its President was democratic because those who appointed them were democratically elected. That isn''t democracy. It is patronage. A bit like appointments to the House of Lords which is supposedly defending us against the people who voted democratically fpr Brexit.

 

But that's not right. It's indirect democracy. The commission is party based. If there are more conservative governments then there are more conservative commissioners. It is directly linked to the democratic views of elected governments. It's not patronage at all like the Lords at all - that is a free ride for parties.

 

We live in a representative democracy and this is something we elect our leaders to do. 

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Millions of young people voted Leave. Millions of older people voted Remain. And your description of the "national discourse" is based (as I suppose it must be from the vantage point of Uruguay and the internet) is a fantasy.. 

 

Take it you've not seen the front pages of our two most read papers - the Mail and Sun - recently? The death threats to MPs for a soft Brexit? 

[Cade]

One of Rees-Mogg's own companies is moving out of the UK and relocating to Dublin so it still has access to the EU market.

 

 

[Victorian]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

One of Rees-Mogg's own companies is moving out of the UK and relocating to Dublin so it still has access to the EU market.

 

 

 

No surprise there.    Standard practice for one of these utter *****.

 

Meanwhile.. it seems that Head Chancer has been caught out misleading pro-remain Tories over supposed compromises regarding a no-deal vote in parliament.     The days are numbered for the rancid *****.

[Cade]

Weak&Wobbly has already reneged on the deal she made with the Tory rebels.

Made up any old shit so they'd not vote all the 15 Lords amendments through, then immediately went back on her word.

The Lords will now reject the Bill again, and when it comes back to the Commons, the rebels will force another vote and this time they WILL vote against Weak&Wobbly.

 

It's bonkers.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

Weak&Wobbly has already reneged on the deal she made with the Tory rebels.

Made up any old shit so they'd not vote all the 15 Lords amendments through, then immediately went back on her word.

The Lords will now reject the Bill again, and when it comes back to the Commons, the rebels will force another vote and this time they WILL vote against Weak&Wobbly.

 

It's bonkers.

 

Hmm..

 

"Look to.. "  and "Work towards.. "

 

 

[Victorian]

Anna Soubry played a blinder the other day by running Head Chancer's words up a flag pole and assuring the world that May would be true to the words.      Not so much now.     The knives are out.

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Victorian

[Victorian]

In other news,     there seem to be indications that the government has enjoyed a staggering moment of genius to realise that immigration policies can be changed to aid NHS recruitment.

 

It's almost as if they know what they're doing sometimes.

[Grumpy]

21 hours ago, jake said:

Another poster who can't help but insult when arguing.

The reality is this .

Our trade is worth more to the powerhouse of Europe (Germany) to them than us.

The reality is that emerging economies around the world are out performing the EU.

And not being part of the EU doesn't mean I condone corruption anywhere else.

The EU deals with these markets and it's member states including ours sells arms to some of the worst and brutal regimes.

 

The reality I am well aware of and just because I disagree with you does not mean I will insult you.

 

A common theme amongst remain voters I've noticed.

I joined this thread with you wittering on about british exceptionalism and corruption in the EU as a couple of justifications for backing leave.

 

The guy you highlighted, exercised his legal rights with the case eventually being decided by the UK supreme court. The particular rights he has won originated in EU legislation. There was nothing exceptional or uniquely British about his case (other than he managed to find funding). Surely you see the irony in this - he won the right to have EU legislation applied to his work situation / your celebrating his success while trying to use it as a reason to leave the EU.

 

As for the EU being corrupt. Yes there is some corruption but nowhere near the levels in many / most other parts of the world. Transparency international shows that the EU is actually one of the regions where there is a relatively low level of corruption (not everywhere but in general that holds true).  It seems EU corruption is a bigger problem for you than the generally more severe form encountered in South America, Asia, Russia or Africa - any reason why?

Then you're onto growth in emerging economies - which may well be higher in some cases but in no way will make up the shortfall of a no deal scenario. Yes German / UK trade is worth more to them than us, but whats your point? Is this the "it'll be all right on the night" reassurance? That is a hell of a gamble to take and if it falls to bits no doubt it'll be the Germans, EU and / or remainers to blame, fingers crossed though.

 

Arms sales - No idea why your on about and have no intention of wading through the thread to catch up. All I know is that the EU Parliament managed to get some guidelines in place a few years ago - surely thats a good thing?

 

I certainly disagree with you but challenging your views isn't an insult. As others appear to be saying to you, stop taking it so personally - especially if your willing to put your views out there, you need to expect some push back.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

14 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Take it you've not seen the front pages of our two most read papers - the Mail and Sun - recently? The death threats to MPs for a soft Brexit? 

 

In before Francis replies that Spencer Perceval was assassinated in 1812, so death threats for our elected representatives for the crime of doing their jobs are nothing in comparison.  

Edited June 14, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[JamboX2]

56 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

In before Francis replies that Spencer Perceval was assassinated in 1812, so death threats for our elected representatives for the crime of doing their jobs are nothing in comparison.  

 

Jo Cox. Thus is not new yes. But it's certainly more blatant and common than ever before in my lifetime. Which is welcome.

[Cade]

There was a gang on National Action bampots jailed this week for planning a machete attack on another Labour MP.

 

Or, terrorists, as I call them and as everybody else should, including the media.

[jake]

21 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Corruption - you've yet to evidence it with facts. Unlike the mounting evidence against Leave.EU.

 

Unaccountable - the commission is accountable to 28 democtatic member states. It has an elected parliament to keep the commission and commissioners in check. The EU only does what its members want it to do. So again - a lot of nonsense.

Are you serious?

 

No evidence of corruption.

The facts are that most companies do not bid for EU contracts in many of its member states.

They are either asked directly for money or are not even considered.

 

This corruption  and get this is valued at between 120 billion and 1 trillion euros.

That it has not been tackled with some simple measures is mind boggling.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/corruption-costs-eu-990-billion-year-rand-study-fraud-funding/

 

Anyway looks likely that the establishment has got it's way.

The EU has achieved it's objective again.

To punish the UK for leaving and to warn other member states against doing so.

Quite why you or anyone can view this as respecting with all it's flaws the only chance people have democracy .

Is turning things inside out.

 

Have you any evidence regarding Aaron Banks and Russian interference in the referendum.

No.

Because there is none.

Having lunch with someone is not evidence.

 

More nonsense.

 

 

[jake]

http://www.euronews.com/2017/06/28/why-won-t-brussels-release-report-on-eu-wide-corruption

[jake]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/european-parliament-calls-for-investigation-into-azerbaijani-laundromat

[jake]

No corruption you say.

 

It's not alone and it's everywhere but the EU consistently fails to investigate or address these problems.

Of which x2 I can assure you there are many.

 

1 trillion euros annually.

 

[jake]

7 hours ago, Grumpy said:

I joined this thread with you wittering on about british exceptionalism and corruption in the EU as a couple of justifications for backing leave.

 

The guy you highlighted, exercised his legal rights with the case eventually being decided by the UK supreme court. The particular rights he has won originated in EU legislation. There was nothing exceptional or uniquely British about his case (other than he managed to find funding). Surely you see the irony in this - he won the right to have EU legislation applied to his work situation / your celebrating his success while trying to use it as a reason to leave the EU.

 

As for the EU being corrupt. Yes there is some corruption but nowhere near the levels in many / most other parts of the world. Transparency international shows that the EU is actually one of the regions where there is a relatively low level of corruption (not everywhere but in general that holds true).  It seems EU corruption is a bigger problem for you than the generally more severe form encountered in South America, Asia, Russia or Africa - any reason why?

Then you're onto growth in emerging economies - which may well be higher in some cases but in no way will make up the shortfall of a no deal scenario. Yes German / UK trade is worth more to them than us, but whats your point? Is this the "it'll be all right on the night" reassurance? That is a hell of a gamble to take and if it falls to bits no doubt it'll be the Germans, EU and / or remainers to blame, fingers crossed though.

 

Arms sales - No idea why your on about and have no intention of wading through the thread to catch up. All I know is that the EU Parliament managed to get some guidelines in place a few years ago - surely thats a good thing?

 

I certainly disagree with you but challenging your views isn't an insult. As others appear to be saying to you, stop taking it so personally - especially if your willing to put your views out there, you need to expect some push back.

 

 

 

Here's a link for you to read or watch.

The head of OECD anti corruption talking about the EU procurement.

30-50% of this budget goes on bribes.

 

Thought you might appreciate his take on it as he is top of the profession that you say you belong to.

 

https://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/175340-corrupt-eu-economy-money/

 

Its RT so many will dismiss it even though it's factual

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, jake said:

 

Here's a link for you to read or watch.

The head of OECD anti corruption talking about the EU procurement.

30-50% of this budget goes on bribes.

 

Thought you might appreciate his take on it as he is top of the profession that you say you belong to.

 

https://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/175340-corrupt-eu-economy-money/

 

Its RT so many will dismiss it even though it's factual

You deliberately didn't answer the question. 

 

You just keep wittering on. 

[jake]

6 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

You deliberately didn't answer the question. 

 

You just keep wittering on. 

The question  about South America isn't pertinent to brexit.

This started because of the assertion that corruptness led to voters being hoodwinked.

 

I didn't deliberately do anything.

 

Hope this helps

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

The question  about South America isn't pertinent to brexit.

This started because of the assertion that corruptness led to voters being hoodwinked.

 

I didn't deliberately do anything.

 

Hope this helps

Immigration and corruption were part of the argument for leaving the EU. Now the raving right want to do more trade with the more corrupt Asians, et al. No doubt try and snuggle up to the Saudis, too. 

[SE16 3LN]

On 13/06/2018 at 12:05, Boris said:

 

I have, and unfortunately don't speak Italian, but the mechanisms of the EU are primarily democratic, and accountable.

 

The Euro and ECB etc, well, that's not the EU per se.

 

So, highlight the undemocratic areas of the EU.

Overturned the decision of the Italian Govt's choice of Finance Minister.

Created a political union from what was an economic union

Forced financial constraints on the Greeks against the will of the Greek Parliament

Created a single currency which was in direct contradiction of their own requirements for EU membership

Attempting to impose financial and other penalties on the UK purely because they are leaving the EU

Failed to act against racist elements within their own parliament who are in breach of their own rules. 

Acting as a military and political alliance outwith the rules of the EU and each sovereign state

shall I go on...