Hard Brexit

[ArcticJambo]

9 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

and ironically those low earners will be the ones who will mostly suffer from leaving.  They wont get their duty free fags, free mobile date roaming and also be at the back of any queues when going " to Europe" ( ie Benidorm et al) 

Aye, but at least some ***** listened to them for once!

[joondalupjambo]

No I am really confused after this weeks latest announcements.   May clearly stated that as a result of her latest plans we will have no freedom of movement yet in the same breath said that we will have no hard border between the north and south of Ireland and no hard border at the ports as that would divide the UK.   I posted the below weeks ago and am still no further forward in my understanding.

 

"If there is no hard border in Ireland where does an EU resident from southern Ireland, or indeed any EU resident, travelling to the UK via a Scottish port from Northern Ireland show their EU passport?  The DUP I thought wanted no hard border and no passport controls at Scottish or Irish ports for NI residents after Brexit because it is part of the UK but how will customs know who is who at the ports unless everyone shows a passport?  Will NI residents just use driving licences for example?  No idea what happens now but surely things will need to change ?  Point is how do we secure the borders  via southern Ireland post Brexit because freedom of movement for EU travel will cease".

 

So to clarify a EU resident flies into southern Ireland on freedom of movement then what?  Just drives up to Belfast, hops on a ferry to Stranraer for example and walks into the UK without showing a passport?  If there are to be no passport controls at either Belfast or Stranraer in this example is that not freedom of movement?  

 

Also if a non EU resident flies into the south of Ireland, same trip where do they show the passport?   Surely there has to be border controls and if so then by default that is a hard border is'nt it?

[jake]

10 hours ago, Boris said:

I had a wee skim read of that Jake. Seems dependent on eea membership? This government doesn't want that as it, iirc allows freedom of movement. 

 

I could quite easily be wrong though. 

No .

It uses Norway as example of a country who has a seat at the top table and this membership.

If you read the article it shows how much of trade agreement is global.

The EU has basically copied in 80% of global trade agreement.

The EU basically gives the UK less influence.

It's worth some attention Boris but I appreciate may not suit your outlook as it is Adam Smith institute sponsored.

 

[Boris]

49 minutes ago, jake said:

No .

It uses Norway as example of a country who has a seat at the top table and this membership.

If you read the article it shows how much of trade agreement is global.

The EU has basically copied in 80% of global trade agreement.

The EU basically gives the UK less influence.

It's worth some attention Boris but I appreciate may not suit your outlook as it is Adam Smith institute sponsored.

 

 

Yeah, I got that from reading it, but it also seemed to suggest that Norway as the example only did what it does as a member of the EEA.

 

May is ruling this out completely.  

 

So post Brexit, the UK may have influence in certain areas, but trade with the EU would be hard/more expensive/less profitable due to lack of EEA membership.

 

I also thought it was contradictory in a sense that it said all these EU "diktats" are in fact global agreements so kind of shoots down the EU ruling us argument.

 

To me the article was arguing for EEA membership and then the evolution of the single market to include EU/EFTA/EEA members and the Eurozone on the other i.e. two distinct blocs both members of the single market.  Of which freedom of movement for labour would still apply.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, joondalupjambo said:

No I am really confused after this weeks latest announcements.   May clearly stated that as a result of her latest plans we will have no freedom of movement yet in the same breath said that we will have no hard border between the north and south of Ireland and no hard border at the ports as that would divide the UK.   I posted the below weeks ago and am still no further forward in my understanding.

 

"If there is no hard border in Ireland where does an EU resident from southern Ireland, or indeed any EU resident, travelling to the UK via a Scottish port from Northern Ireland show their EU passport?  The DUP I thought wanted no hard border and no passport controls at Scottish or Irish ports for NI residents after Brexit because it is part of the UK but how will customs know who is who at the ports unless everyone shows a passport?  Will NI residents just use driving licences for example?  No idea what happens now but surely things will need to change ?  Point is how do we secure the borders  via southern Ireland post Brexit because freedom of movement for EU travel will cease".

 

So to clarify a EU resident flies into southern Ireland on freedom of movement then what?  Just drives up to Belfast, hops on a ferry to Stranraer for example and walks into the UK without showing a passport?  If there are to be no passport controls at either Belfast or Stranraer in this example is that not freedom of movement?  

 

Also if a non EU resident flies into the south of Ireland, same trip where do they show the passport?   Surely there has to be border controls and if so then by default that is a hard border is'nt it?

This is the issue which will cause acrimony and chaos. It is still not clear what will happen as May has that hound Arlene Fraser breathing down her neck about this. I think that May will do the dirty on her and woo Labour , SNP and Liberal Dem to support her plan NOT to have a hard border.  It wont matter that Fraser and her cretins support this as May will already have enough votes to pass this part of the talks.  Id certainly support this. 

[Victorian]

They are trying to sell the plan as one that ends freedom of movement,  stops the payments of vast sums of cash to Europe,   returns control of law making to the UK and removes the UK from the customs union,  etc.      All of the so-called red lines satisfied.     But somewhere along the line it will become evident that there will be a different freedom of movement,   a similar yet 'better and fairer' way of paying vast sums of cash to Europe,  an alternative version of being within European Parliament / ECJ control and a 'new, deep & ever so special' access to markets and customs union.

 

It's really just fairly standard political 'plausible deniability'.     

[doctor jambo]

5 hours ago, ArcticJambo said:

Aye, but at least some ***** listened to them for once!

No , they didnt

Ever since this Plebian triumph the govt have been engineering a way to avoid it

[Cade]

Remember when we had a functioning Representative Democracy, where the public would vote for certain people with long-term, clear, coherent, detailed visions of the future path the nation should be taking, and invested those people with the power to carry out those aims in the name of the general public?

 

When and how did we make the transition to government policy being short-term and dictated by extremely vague public opinion polls, whether it be media headlines or referenda results?

 

It's a bad joke and we're becoming unable to function on the world stage.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Remember when we had a functioning Representative Democracy, where the public would vote for certain people with long-term, clear, coherent, detailed visions of the future path the nation should be taking, and invested those people with the power to carry out those aims in the name of the general public?

 

When and how did we make the transition to government policy being short-term and dictated by extremely vague public opinion polls, whether it be media headlines or referenda results?

 

It's a bad joke and we're becoming unable to function on the world stage.

The UK is hardly unique. Look at the US and much of the rest of Europe. Probably a subject worthy of another thread as there are so many factors. In no particular order and to name just a few - a political class consisting largely of career politicians with no outside experience, general dumbing down of mass media ( even or perhaps especially what used to be the "quality" press), ever shorter attention spans, rolling news and the need to fill hours with some "news" real or invented. On the other hand a lack of deference towards and respect for those in positions of power who patently are either not up to the job or only in it for themselves. 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Remember when we had a functioning Representative Democracy, where the public would vote for certain people with long-term, clear, coherent, detailed visions of the future path the nation should be taking, and invested those people with the power to carry out those aims in the name of the general public?

 

When and how did we make the transition to government policy being short-term and dictated by extremely vague public opinion polls, whether it be media headlines or referenda results?

 

It's a bad joke and we're becoming unable to function on the world stage.

 

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The UK is hardly unique. Look at the US and much of the rest of Europe. Probably a subject worthy of another thread as there are so many factors. In no particular order and to name just a few - a political class consisting largely of career politicians with no outside experience, general dumbing down of mass media ( even or perhaps especially what used to be the "quality" press), ever shorter attention spans, rolling news and the need to fill hours with some "news" real or invented. On the other hand a lack of deference towards and respect for those in positions of power who patently are either not up to the job or only in it for themselves. 

 

That's neo-liberalism for you.  

 

The symptoms have always been there, IMO, just that since the mid 70's onwards those in power have deliberately exacerbated things.

 

Or, if you wish to take a Marxist critique, the alienation of individuals, amongst other things, has resulted in where we are now.  Aided and abetted by the neo-liberals.

[robroy1874]

Theresa's nae bothered

[doctor jambo]

19 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Alienation of inviduals? Can you clarify?

 

We live in the most connected age we have ever lived in? Whilst we are part of more communities than have ever been in history. 

 

Or (my memory of Marxist theory is v. poor) are you saying that because humans are generally a resource in a capitalist society, so don’t give a **** and hence unhappy? Then this has only occurred/accelerated since the 70’s.

 

 

My own thoughts on the matter is that we are increasingly living unnatural existences, so are increasingly unhappy.

Instead of living in family units and mini communities as hunter gatherers with a largely hunting/shooting/fishing/feasting and out doors life

 

we now exist as battery hens- indoors, cooped up, artificial sustenance, little exercise

the result is depression, insomnia, obesity, isolation, loneliness

 

when you think how MUCH better we all feel when outdoors, round a fire, having a barbecue, feasting with groups of friends, camping, fishing. hiking

=- that is how people used to live

 

the best cure for insomnia remains to sleep in a tent outside with no artificial light or devices- allow the circadian rhythm to set your sleep and voila! Cured with no chemical pumped into you at all

 

[doctor jambo]

11 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I’m not sure, we are living unnatural existence. We have evolved as humans and a society. I feel much more natural shitting in the toilet in a building as opposed to the shitting in the woods!

 

A lot of things you talk about  leading to depression are lifestyle choices. Whilst I could make a damm good case as a society we have never been healthier due to lifestyle choices, medicine and dietary knowledge.

 

In addition working conditions, despite what many claim, are much better than previous generations particularly from mental health aspects.

 

With regard your analogy about being round bbq, think how much better you would feel living in house with central heating with a fridge full of food as opposed to living outside in the freezing snow, hunting for scarce food and worrying about if the person next to you was going to kill you just to survive. 

 

I actually think its its a perception thing. We have never been so well off as we are now as a society. We no longer, in the main, have to worry about food, shelter, companionship therefore we invent irrelevant shit to worry about as your basic needs are taken care off. 

 

Hard times make hard men, hard men make easy time, easy times make soft men. 

 

We are defo living in the soft men time.

 

Though I get what your saying importance of outside and exercise etc. Interesting topic though.

 

 

Whilst we are living longer we are spending a disproportionate amount of that being "ill"  ie you live longer but most of the gain you have health problems.

 

In addition you see the rise of mental health problems, as well as "neuro-developmental disorders" such as ADHD caused by family breakdown and gentile society being unable to cope with distressed boys so pumping them full of drugs to control them.

 

And I can assure you , being in a warm house with a full fridge describes a lot of really depressed people

[jambo lodge]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

My own thoughts on the matter is that we are increasingly living unnatural existences, so are increasingly unhappy.

Instead of living in family units and mini communities as hunter gatherers with a largely hunting/shooting/fishing/feasting and out doors life

 

we now exist as battery hens- indoors, cooped up, artificial sustenance, little exercise

the result is depression, insomnia, obesity, isolation, loneliness

 

when you think how MUCH better we all feel when outdoors, round a fire, having a barbecue, feasting with groups of friends, camping, fishing. hiking

=- that is how people used to live

 

the best cure for insomnia remains to sleep in a tent outside with no artificial light or devices- allow the circadian rhythm to set your sleep and voila! Cured with no chemical pumped into you at all

 

Just come back from a good walk on a pretty dreich day in Sutherland and couldn't agree more. The family unit is the most natural and stable environment anywhere in the world, its a shame in the West that we don't value it as much as we used to do. 

[doctor jambo]

32 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

We do live longer but deperession and unhappiness seem to effect younger generations more so they not? So they haven’t been hit by Ill health yet in main.

 

Why do you think mental health issues on rise? Breakdown family unit, being able to label issues, environment, dietary or just the neo liberals and the evils of capitalism lol. 

 

On last para I think you’ve missed my point. My point was having our basic needs taken care of, mean in essence we are able to get depressed. Whereas when you have to take care of basic needs food, shelter no ability to get depressed as you wouldn’t survive.

 

Your right about  one of the biggest cause of alienation/mental issues is due to breakdown of families and all that come from that. I can’t recall the speaker, but I do recall some frightening statistics about kids from single parent families doing remarkably worse in just about every metric than those that come from a parental unit. I was stunned by it.

 

The importance of the family unit is underestimated imo. 

 

,

loss of stable family is creating unstable children- at a time when they need stability to work out who they are, they don't have it, so become emotionally unstable, and society deals with it using pharmacology- because its easier than the truth- severe emotional trauma in childhood caused by parental separation or lack of stable family unit has a devastating effect on the well being of children

[joondalupjambo]

6 hours ago, Cade said:

Remember when we had a functioning Representative Democracy, where the public would vote for certain people with long-term, clear, coherent, detailed visions of the future path the nation should be taking, and invested those people with the power to carry out those aims in the name of the general public?

 

When and how did we make the transition to government policy being short-term and dictated by extremely vague public opinion polls, whether it be media headlines or referenda results?

 

It's a bad joke and we're becoming unable to function on the world stage.

When MP's salaries and their extra incomes due to being MP's became so high that money became king over doing the best thing for their constituents and the country?

[Francis Albert]

4 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

My own thoughts on the matter is that we are increasingly living unnatural existences, so are increasingly unhappy.

Instead of living in family units and mini communities as hunter gatherers with a largely hunting/shooting/fishing/feasting and out doors life

 

we now exist as battery hens- indoors, cooped up, artificial sustenance, little exercise

the result is depression, insomnia, obesity, isolation, loneliness

 

when you think how MUCH better we all feel when outdoors, round a fire, having a barbecue, feasting with groups of friends, camping, fishing. hiking

=- that is how people used to live

 

the best cure for insomnia remains to sleep in a tent outside with no artificial light or devices- allow the circadian rhythm to set your sleep and voila! Cured with no chemical pumped into you at all

 

While not disagreeing (although spare me the camping and hiking!) with this and your observations on the imact of societal change on children,  I think the original question was about why politics have changed in the last few decades (and increasingly in the last decade) compared to say the 30 to 35 years after WW2. I am not sure that can be explained by the fact we are no longer hunter gatherers

Edited July 10, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Seymour M Hersh]

57 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

When MP's salaries and their extra incomes due to being MP's became so high that money became king over doing the best thing for their constituents and the country?

 

When politics became a career and professional politicians appeared and they stopped becoming politicians as a way of serving your country. Probably started around the mid 70's but maybe earlier

[maroonlegions]

And another two feck off, rats deserting the sinking ship.

 

 

 

Two Conservative vice chairs resign in protest at Theresa May's Brexit plan

INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

 

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by maroonlegions

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

 

,

loss of stable family is creating unstable children- at a time when they need stability to work out who they are, they don't have it, so become emotionally unstable, and society deals with it using pharmacology- because its easier than the truth- severe emotional trauma in childhood caused by parental separation or lack of stable family unit has a devastating effect on the well being of children

You start " loss of stable family is creating unstable children " ? What does that exactly mean ? Define a " stable family"?   

 

All families have their ups and downs and  this can be good for children to experience sometimes  difficult family life ( parents separating , parents in conflict ) to enable them to learn and work out how to  cope with relationships in adult life.  Yes some children grow up to become " unstable " due to early life experiences but this is mainly due to lack of parent - child  attachment , love , praise , encouragement etc. I have worked with children from various family backgrounds who have attachment disorders and this is due to a variety of reasons.   I definitely agree that over dosing children on drugs isn't the best way to deal with their issues and behaviours.  Its the easy quick fix instead of therapy. 

[ToadKiller Dog]

So who's started stockpiling food and medicine for the hard Brexit? 

The Government in Westminster has plans to do so, according to its mouth piece to the morons "the super soar away Sun" but don't worry its a good thing just a sensible precaution. 

Feck me are he printing ration books a well? 

[AlphonseCapone]

On 10/07/2018 at 06:15, joondalupjambo said:

No I am really confused after this weeks latest announcements.   May clearly stated that as a result of her latest plans we will have no freedom of movement yet in the same breath said that we will have no hard border between the north and south of Ireland and no hard border at the ports as that would divide the UK.   I posted the below weeks ago and am still no further forward in my understanding.

 

"If there is no hard border in Ireland where does an EU resident from southern Ireland, or indeed any EU resident, travelling to the UK via a Scottish port from Northern Ireland show their EU passport?  The DUP I thought wanted no hard border and no passport controls at Scottish or Irish ports for NI residents after Brexit because it is part of the UK but how will customs know who is who at the ports unless everyone shows a passport?  Will NI residents just use driving licences for example?  No idea what happens now but surely things will need to change ?  Point is how do we secure the borders  via southern Ireland post Brexit because freedom of movement for EU travel will cease".

 

So to clarify a EU resident flies into southern Ireland on freedom of movement then what?  Just drives up to Belfast, hops on a ferry to Stranraer for example and walks into the UK without showing a passport?  If there are to be no passport controls at either Belfast or Stranraer in this example is that not freedom of movement?  

 

Also if a non EU resident flies into the south of Ireland, same trip where do they show the passport?   Surely there has to be border controls and if so then by default that is a hard border is'nt it?

 

It's completely unworkable and something has to give. Either a hard border of some sort or a border in the Irish sea. 

 

As an aside I hate when folk say Southern Ireland. It's the Republic of Ireland or just Ireland. Southern Ireland is Cork or something. And actually, the Republic of Ireland extends further north than Northern Ireland on the West. All that's neither here nor there though on the subject tbf! 

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

It's completely unworkable and something has to give. Either a hard border of some sort or a border in the Irish sea. 

 

As an aside I hate when folk say Southern Ireland. It's the Republic of Ireland or just Ireland. Southern Ireland is Cork or something. And actually, the Republic of Ireland extends further north than Northern Ireland on the West. All that's neither here nor there though on the subject tbf! 

So do you hate when people say Northern Ireland?

[AlphonseCapone]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

So do you hate when people say Northern Ireland?

 

It's a poor name choice for the reasons I mentioned but unfortunately, we are stuck with it now and for better or worse is the recognised name, unlike Southern Ireland. 

[Victorian]

Same old shit.

 

New Brexit Secretary trying to deliver the white paper statement and debate without bothering to provide copies of the paper to MPs.     Commons in uproar.

[Don Dan]

Dear  Today, we announced our detailed plan for Brexit. We’re taking back control of our borders, our money, and our laws. This plan delivers on the result of the referendum: Ending the free movement of people – so we control our borders. Ending the huge annual payments we make to the EU – so we control our money. Ending the rule of the European Court of Justice – so we control our laws. We will cease to be a member of the European Union on 29 March next year. Our Brexit plan means we can make our own trade deals. So we can protect British jobs – while creating new ones. We will leave the EU’s Customs Union and Single Market – free to make our own trade deals with old friends and new allies around the world. At the same time, we’re proposing a new free-trade area with the EU for goods, based on a common rulebook and a business-friendly customs model – so British business can continue to trade with our nearest neighbours in Europe. But the decision whether to apply new rules on goods will be made in our Parliament, by the people you elect. We’re also taking back control of our rural communities and our fishing waters – leaving the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy so our farmers and our fishermen can take decisions that are best for them. Our plan will deliver on the result of the referendum. Taking back control – while protecting British jobs. So if you support our plan, then help us share the facts about it. Yours sincerely, The Rt. Hon. Theresa May MP Prime Minister & Leader of the Conservative Party

[Cade]

"Dear X.

You know all the stuff the EU have said that we will never get in a millions years and have been saying so since the morning after the referendum? Well that's what we're asking for.

Fingers Crossed.

Love.

Treeza"

 

P.S. a previous white paper has already stated that at least two thirds of the fishing quotas will stay in the hands of 3 large companies running mega trawlers. Sorry about that, chaps

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Cade

[The Mighty Thor]

38 minutes ago, Cade said:

"Dear X.

You know all the stuff the EU have said that we will never get in a millions years and have been saying so since the morning after the referendum? Well that's what we're asking for.

Fingers Crossed.

Love.

Treeza"

 

P.S. a previous white paper has already stated that at least two thirds of the fishing quotas will stay in the hands of 3 large companies running mega trawlers. Sorry about that, chaps

 

Better together.

[DVB]

Just watching Question Time and Theresa May has just been compared to Gareth Southgate the coach of the British Lions.

[jake]

8 hours ago, DVB said:

Just watching Question Time and Theresa May has just been compared to Gareth Southgate the coach of the British Lions.

Tbf to her she has had a thankless task.

 

[The Brow]

On 09/07/2018 at 07:42, jake said:

It was a revolution without bloodshed.

 

Isn't that something ?

 

Or is everyone happy to see big business rule?

 

Profit over climate

Profit over hunger

 

Etc etc.

 

Or are all you social justice people just looking out for cheap holidays and the chance to travel?

 

Dont even know where to begin with this car crash of a post. If you're going to be a nob about someone else's opinion then I'll just not bother replying. 

 

Good day to you.  

[Captain Sausage]

What happens if May and the EU agree a deal and parliament then rejects it? Do we stay in the EU or get turfed out with no deal and a mandatory hard border in NI?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

19 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

What happens if May and the EU agree a deal and parliament then rejects it? Do we stay in the EU or get turfed out with no deal and a mandatory hard border in NI?

 

Equally the UK, UK parliament & the EU could agree a deal, only for the European parliament to reject it.

Unlikely but in theory either scenario could happen.

 

[Captain Sausage]

Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Equally the UK, UK parliament & the EU could agree a deal, only for the European parliament to reject it.

Unlikely but in theory either scenario could happen.

 

 

Do we know what happens in either rejection event?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

31 minutes ago, houstonjambo said:

 

Do we know what happens in either rejection event?

 

I would guess it would be back to the negotiating table to iron out the issues of the rejection, but it probably wouldn't be as simple as that, so ultimately who knows what happens.

[Cruyff Turn]

TM will be ousted out eventually. 

 

Donald Trump has told her to drop the EU deal or the UK won't get a trade deal with the US. 

 

If she keeps going with it more will resign and she'll face a vote of no confidence or be constantly defeated in parliament by her own MP's. She is completely powerless now. 

 

She's done, i don't like her but I do feel sorry for her in a way that she was always the fall woman and she's had to deal with David Cameron's mess. The alternative 's will be that idiot Boris Johnson, or arch Tory Rees-Mogg, who is so out of touch with the present day he may as well have been teleported from the 1950's. 

[jake]

2 hours ago, The Brow said:

 

Dont even know where to begin with this car crash of a post. If you're going to be a nob about someone else's opinion then I'll just not bother replying. 

 

Good day to you.  

Good effort not replying

[The Brow]

10 minutes ago, jake said:

Good effort not replying

I look forward to when youre out your tree on jungle juice later 

 

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, houstonjambo said:

What happens if May and the EU agree a deal and parliament then rejects it? Do we stay in the EU or get turfed out with no deal and a mandatory hard border in NI?

The NI "fall back" only applies if there is a deal.

No deal means no deal to coin a phrase.

 

[jake]

50 minutes ago, The Brow said:

I look forward to when youre out your tree on jungle juice later 

 

First you say you won't reply but do then you are looking forward to my posts.

 

Make your mind up.

I apologise if my original post offended you.

I'd rather argue my point of view than do that.

 

[Captain Sausage]

49 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The NI "fall back" only applies if there is a deal.

No deal means no deal to coin a phrase.

 

 

Does a parliamentary rejection of any proposal mean no deal? Do we go back to the drawing board?

 

Are we out on 29th March regardless of deal in place or not? Does a border get installed and all trade stopped until we work out what’s going on?

 

As far as I know, none of this has been answered. We have an entire government department set up to manage this shambles and yet not a single person can tell us what is going on. 

 

[SpruceBringsteen]

Has every one had the weekend off? 

 

Anyway, digest this.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fall-immigration-brexit-cost-uk-finances-billions-global-futures-a8448261.html

 

At this point, you either want to go back to the days of painting in caves, or you don't.

 

Thank **** I left that choice with you lads, because I know what it'll be. Pathetic. 

[Beast Boy]

On 12/07/2018 at 17:25, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Utterly bored reading you pony and top sonny. Erse.

 

Why? Because he posted a relevant link, that you didn’t like? He calls out your trolling and you resort to abuse?

 

Maybe chill out a wee bit Seymour? Don’t get so angry and emotionally involved. You’ll be far less likely to lose the rag that way.

[Beast Boy]

On 12/07/2018 at 18:46, Dannie Boy said:

Dear  Today, we announced our detailed plan for Brexit. We’re taking back control of our borders, our money, and our laws. This plan delivers on the result of the referendum: Ending the free movement of people – so we control our borders. Ending the huge annual payments we make to the EU – so we control our money. Ending the rule of the European Court of Justice – so we control our laws. We will cease to be a member of the European Union on 29 March next year. Our Brexit plan means we can make our own trade deals. So we can protect British jobs – while creating new ones. We will leave the EU’s Customs Union and Single Market – free to make our own trade deals with old friends and new allies around the world. At the same time, we’re proposing a new free-trade area with the EU for goods, based on a common rulebook and a business-friendly customs model – so British business can continue to trade with our nearest neighbours in Europe. But the decision whether to apply new rules on goods will be made in our Parliament, by the people you elect. We’re also taking back control of our rural communities and our fishing waters – leaving the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy so our farmers and our fishermen can take decisions that are best for them. Our plan will deliver on the result of the referendum. Taking back control – while protecting British jobs. So if you support our plan, then help us share the facts about it. Yours sincerely, The Rt. Hon. Theresa May MP Prime Minister & Leader of the Conservative Party

 

Could have saved a lot of meaningless drivel and just said:

 

”LET’S MAKE BRITAIN GREAT AGAIN!”

 

 

 

[Captain Sausage]

What do people think of Greening’s call for a referendum on the back of whatever deal is presented?

 

She raises the valid point that neither camp is happy with the current proposal. As such, are we not better with half the country happy than everyone unhappy?

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, houstonjambo said:

What do people think of Greening’s call for a referendum on the back of whatever deal is presented?

 

She raises the valid point that neither camp is happy with the current proposal. As such, are we not better with half the country happy than everyone unhappy?

What would be the question?

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I assume the principal would be May negotiates/agree leave deal in principal. Then the question would be ‘do you want to leave eu under Mays agree deal?’ (obvisiously worded a bit better!)

 

 

What's the alternative? Remain as before (if that is even available as an option) or leave without a deal or try to get a better deal?

 

The UK government's position seems increasingly bizarre. The so called May deal is just an attempt to hold the Tory party more or less together (as of course was the original referendum). It won't survive the first encounter with the EU which has consistently and clearly ruled out many of the elements of the "May deal". The Tory party can't just negotiate with itself!

[Beast Boy]

Over the last few days we have seen Trump describe the EU as our foes, and he’s now cosying up to Putin.

 

I can’t believe people are comfortable with our little duckling routine behind this absolute cretin. You’ve still got folk pretending we are doing the right thing with this direction change.

 

Still, as long as Gideon, Mogg and Farage get to keep evading tax, and workers rights are abolished then where’s the harm, eh? 

 

 

[Captain Sausage]

51 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

What's the alternative? Remain as before (if that is even available as an option) or leave without a deal or try to get a better deal?

 

The UK government's position seems increasingly bizarre. The so called May deal is just an attempt to hold the Tory party more or less together (as of course was the original referendum). It won't survive the first encounter with the EU which has consistently and clearly ruled out many of the elements of the "May deal". The Tory party can't just negotiate with itself!

 

Agree with your second paragraph. As for the first, I think those are literally the two options left given the current direction of implosion from the Tory party.

 

I see only 3 practical options for us going forward, one of which is being torn up as we speak:

 

1) Follow through with the current plan (basically EEA membership - give or take). We’d effectively be in a position where we are subject to EU rules but with no influence. Worst of both worlds. 

 

2) Leave fully aka ‘hard Brexit’. Hard border with Ireland. Trade deals to be negotiated post 29th March. 

 

3) Drop the whole thing and retain status quo. 

 

I don't see option 1 working, nobody is happy with it. I don’t see any variation on option 1 as the EU simply won’t allow it. So it’s realitically option 2 or 3. 

 

I genuinely don't see the harm in a referendum with options 2 and 3 as the choices. The public will have a more informed platform on which to make the decision and it’s likely to defuse at least some of the anger from the losing side as the vote would be based on a clear, tangible way forward. 

[Cade]

We're leaving in March 2019.

It's only 8 months away.

Nobody has a clue what we're even going to be negotiating for when we should be almost finished negotiations.

Euro-sceptics have had 40 years to plan for this.

 

It's a complete joke.