Hard Brexit

[jake]

2 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Immigration and corruption were part of the argument for leaving the EU. Now the raving right want to do more trade with the more corrupt Asians, et al. No doubt try and snuggle up to the Saudis, too. 

We have been selling arms to the Saudis for decades and France sells more arms than UK .

Just saying.

There's lots of reasons why people voted remain and leave.

 

[Boris]

23 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Overturned the decision of the Italian Govt's choice of Finance Minister. - the EU did this?  Sure it wasn't the Italian President?

Created a political union from what was an economic union - ????

Forced financial constraints on the Greeks against the will of the Greek Parliament - Not the EU, but the ECB, EUROZONE etc?

Created a single currency which was in direct contradiction of their own requirements for EU membership - but no applicable to all

Attempting to impose financial and other penalties on the UK purely because they are leaving the EU - you mean paying our dues?

Failed to act against racist elements within their own parliament who are in breach of their own rules.  - ?????

Acting as a military and political alliance outwith the rules of the EU and each sovereign state - ?????

shall I go on...

 

 

Feel free to go in if you have something that answers the question.

[Francis Albert]

On 13/06/2018 at 23:46, JamboX2 said:

 

But that's not right. It's indirect democracy. The commission is party based. If there are more conservative governments then there are more conservative commissioners. It is directly linked to the democratic views of elected governments. It's not patronage at all like the Lords at all - that is a free ride for parties.

 

We live in a representative democracy and this is something we elect our leaders to do. 

"Indirect democracy"? The members of the Lords are now mainly appointed over time  by people who have been  elected . It doesn't make the Lords a democratic body. The fact that a democratically elected body maintains a monarchical system does not make monarchy a democratic body. To deny that there is a serious democratic deficit in the way the EU is structured and operates is actually a dangerous failure to recognise reality for any serious believer in or supporter of the EU and a bigger threat in the long run to the EU than Brexit.

 

[SectionDJambo]

Being, what I think as being a normal, reasonable, chap, whose only political thought is that the UK people are treated without bias, disrespect or envy, and that everyone should contribute fairly, within their financial means, to the overall good of the country, there is one thing that disturbs me most about leaving the EU.

It has politicians, like Duncan Smith, Redwood, Johnston, Reed Mogg, and Gove, not forgetting the odious creep Farage, going around with a cocky, sneering and condescending attitude towards the electorate of this country. They will sort out the corrupt Johnny Foreigner, on our behalf, and we can trust them, because they never tell porkies. 

To my knowledge, not one of them has owned up to the “£350m to the NHS every week if we leave” bus decoration. Someone did it, and it was a whopper of a lie, which seems to have turned many into voting to leave. Then they have been proven to have no idea how to actually go about leaving without making a mess of it.

 Why does anyone trust these people to be doing anything for the benefit of the vast majority of the UK, and not just to promote their own political agenda?

The EU has had a deserved hit for their arrogance, but what follows them could be even worse, with the above mentioned pursuing their political agenda after we eventually try to pick up the pieces of this shambles.

I fear for this country’s future, as a host of political bampots, try to fill the void with their ideas of what is right for us.

[Grumpy]

14 hours ago, jake said:

 

Here's a link for you to read or watch.

The head of OECD anti corruption talking about the EU procurement.

30-50% of this budget goes on bribes.

 

Thought you might appreciate his take on it as he is top of the profession that you say you belong to.

 

https://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/175340-corrupt-eu-economy-money/

 

Its RT so many will dismiss it even though it's factual

Oh my....

 

Why do you think many will dismiss RT? Maybe the Russians (ranked 135 equal in the Corruption Index) bribed him. For reference the lowest scoring EU country I could spot is Bulgaria at 71.

 

If those 30 - 50% figures do happen to be true though - I shudder to think what the equivalent for other regions must be. Anyway you look at it, the EU is one of the cleanest.

 

I was at the OECD Global Anti-Corruption and Integrity forum at the end of March - didn't notice anyone quoting your claimed facts and figures but it was a big event.  None of the speakers wass claiming the EU is perfect but all were praising it for making significantly more effort to clampdown on corruption than most other regions. The Transparency International figures tend to back that up.

 

You keep going with your sources and "facts" though. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Grumpy

[jake]

3 hours ago, Grumpy said:

Oh my....

 

Why do you think many will dismiss RT? Maybe the Russians (ranked 135 equal in the Corruption Index) bribed him. For reference the lowest scoring EU country I could spot is Bulgaria at 71.

 

If those 30 - 50% figures do happen to be true though - I shudder to think what the equivalent for other regions must be. Anyway you look at it, the EU is one of the cleanest.

 

I was at the OECD Global Anti-Corruption and Integrity forum at the end of March - didn't notice anyone quoting your claimed facts and figures but it was a big event.  None of the speakers wass claiming the EU is perfect but all were praising it for making significantly more effort to clampdown on corruption than most other regions. The Transparency International figures tend to back that up.

 

You keep going with your sources and "facts" though. 

The sources and facts can be found easily .

There's lots of information in regards to this.

And I have not said the EU was or is worse.

My response was to x2.

I agreed with him regarding Aaron Banks and pointed out that the EU was guilty of corruption.

By the way there is no evidence only suspicion regarding him.

 

Why you feel the need to question facts that are facts tells me you only want to discuss facts that suit your agenda.

 

X2 wishes to paint brexit as a fraud as do others.

 

Voters didn't understand

Voters were hoodwinked and lied to .

 

Blissfully ignoring the lies told by the remain campaign.

The chancellor of the exchequer no less making false claims as to what would happen.

 

By all means disagree but dismissing facts that I post as dodgy when clearly they are not .

And accusing the head of the OECD of being bribed is desperate especially when this is backed by the EU own report in 2014.

Who promised to update every 2 years.

They didn't keep that promise.

 

So your patronising reply serves only to remind me of that should there ever be a rerun of this referendum that the same result would happen.

 

And what a ridiculous answer to the 30/50%  angle.

Is that it.

We must accept criminality in public office because it's worse in Russia.

 

Oh my indeed........

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by jake

[jake]

When I responded to x2 post about corruption I agreed with him.

He told me I could not have it both ways.

 

The backing of politics by individuals and or companies his a concern.

 

During the referendum more than half the donations give to both sides came from just 10 individuals.

6 of these were the leave campaign.

 

Much talk is made of The big bad Russians.

But American banks and other foreign companies gave money to remain.

 

By the way there is still no evidence of Russian involvement.

 

My point is you can't discuss anything with remain voters because while they tell me I can't have it both ways they wish to ignore the lies and foreign interference involved in the remain campaign.

[jake]

We were lied to in the referendum but thankfully the voters understood what they were voting for and delivered the correct decision.

 

George Osbourne no less told the voters that 30 billion pounds of taxes and spending cuts would be the result of not when we leave but just the vote that would signal that.

 

3 million job losses we were told would happen

 

Food shortages perhaps the most scandalous of the bare faced lies told.

During the campaign a minister wrongly claimed job vacancies had fallen.

 

There's loads of lies foreign money big business donations involved with the remain campaign.

 

Gladly give some more examples if anyone's interested.

 

Thankfully the working class of northern England saw through these lies and saved us from the clever idiots getting their fake news from The guardian.

 

?

 

N8ght night 

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

We were lied to in the referendum but thankfully the voters understood what they were voting for and delivered the correct decision.

 

George Osbourne no less told the voters that 30 billion pounds of taxes and spending cuts would be the result of not when we leave but just the vote that would signal that.

 

3 million job losses we were told would happen

 

Food shortages perhaps the most scandalous of the bare faced lies told.

During the campaign a minister wrongly claimed job vacancies had fallen.

 

There's loads of lies foreign money big business donations involved with the remain campaign.

 

Gladly give some more examples if anyone's interested.

 

Thankfully the working class of northern England saw through these lies and saved us from the clever idiots getting their fake news from The guardian.

 

?

 

N8ght night 

 

Still trying to understand why someone who sits at the far left endorses the far right of the Conservative party and their billionaire  world wide tax cheating syndicates. 

 

Every day is a school day I guess. 

[shaun.lawson]

8 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

To my knowledge, not one of them has owned up to the “£350m to the NHS every week if we leave” bus decoration. Someone did it, and it was a whopper of a lie, which seems to have turned many into voting to leave. 

 

Shall I post this again? Yes, I think I shall.

 

 

[jake]

8 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Still trying to understand why someone who sits at the far left endorses the far right of the Conservative party and their billionaire  world wide tax cheating syndicates. 

 

Every day is a school day I guess. 

 

6 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Shall I post this again? Yes, I think I shall.

 

 

What happened to the 30 billion pound tax increases and spending cuts we were told would happen?

 

Where were these 3 million job cuts?

 

It's both sides who told porkies Shaun.

 

Both sides had foreign backers.

 

If you are not clever enough to vote on more information other than party political broadcasts and don't understand why you voted remain that's a pity.

 

?

 

Yeeeeeeeeessssssssss.

 

 

[jake]

8 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Still trying to understand why someone who sits at the far left endorses the far right of the Conservative party and their billionaire  world wide tax cheating syndicates. 

 

Every day is a school day I guess. 

I voted leave.

I didn't back Osbourne or Lord Sainsbury.

 

I don't understand a guy who wants his country to break away from a union that controls the economy to suit it's central power with a union that's more remote and controls the economy to suit it's central power.

A guy from the left who watches an organisation whose economic policies mean austerity for many of its member states.

 

Every day an all that Spacey

[Boris]

27 minutes ago, jake said:

 

... Watches an organisation whose economic policies mean austerity for many of its member states.

 

What policies are those? 

 

Are you conflating the EU with the eurozone? 

[Roxy Hearts]

Too many WM apologists and whatabootery on here. 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

What policies are those? 

 

Are you conflating the EU with the eurozone? 

Yes probably I am Boris.

Isn't it all part and parcel.

The austerity measures placed on Greece were politically motivated.

Their debt was owed to German banks .

That debt was transferred to the ECB.

The EU is essentially governed economically by them.

 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Too many WM apologists and whatabootery on here. 

I agree.

And I am guilty of it.

 

But I am not a wm apologist .

I'd say to much EU apologists.

 

Westminster and UK democratic bodies need reforming.

We have a chance to do this.

Trying to reform the EU imo is futile otherwise I'd have voted remain.

I also do not think Scotland can truly prosper as part of the UK which is why I vote independence.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

12 hours ago, jake said:

We were lied to in the referendum but thankfully the voters understood what they were voting for and delivered the correct decision.

 

George Osbourne no less told the voters that 30 billion pounds of taxes and spending cuts would be the result of not when we leave but just the vote that would signal that.

 

3 million job losses we were told would happen

 

Food shortages perhaps the most scandalous of the bare faced lies told.

During the campaign a minister wrongly claimed job vacancies had fallen.

 

There's loads of lies foreign money big business donations involved with the remain campaign.

 

Gladly give some more examples if anyone's interested.

 

Thankfully the working class of northern England saw through these lies and saved us from the clever idiots getting their fake news from The guardian.

 

?

 

N8ght night 

Brexit hasn't happened yet. We may still see 30 billion pounds of tax increases, job losses etc etc. We've no idea what will happen either way. 

 

To say the voters understood what they were voting for is a stretch. A huge stretch. 

 

Time will tell Jake.

 

One thing that's for damn sure is that Maggie May and her collection of arseholes will struggle to deliver it whatever form it takes.

 

 

[Grumpy]

14 hours ago, jake said:

The sources and facts can be found easily .

There's lots of information in regards to this.

And I have not said the EU was or is worse.

My response was to x2.

I agreed with him regarding Aaron Banks and pointed out that the EU was guilty of corruption.

By the way there is no evidence only suspicion regarding him.

 

Why you feel the need to question facts that are facts tells me you only want to discuss facts that suit your agenda.

 

X2 wishes to paint brexit as a fraud as do others.

 

Voters didn't understand

Voters were hoodwinked and lied to .

 

Blissfully ignoring the lies told by the remain campaign.

The chancellor of the exchequer no less making false claims as to what would happen.

 

By all means disagree but dismissing facts that I post as dodgy when clearly they are not .

And accusing the head of the OECD of being bribed is desperate especially when this is backed by the EU own report in 2014.

Who promised to update every 2 years.

They didn't keep that promise.

 

So your patronising reply serves only to remind me of that should there ever be a rerun of this referendum that the same result would happen.

 

And what a ridiculous answer to the 30/50%  angle.

Is that it.

We must accept criminality in public office because it's worse in Russia.

 

Oh my indeed........

 

Oh my....,

 

You need to lighten up - I disagree with you, get over it, thats debating not being patronising. Your side won the referendum, get over it. You don't think your responses suit my agenda,  they don't get over it. Blissfully ignoring the lies told by the leave campaign. Unable to identify when someones being facetious (that was the bit about the OECD guy being bribed by the way - just in case you haven't worked it out yet). Relying on rt as a credible source.

 

The response on the 30 - 50%, ok you disagree, I was several beers and a bottle of wine down by that point, but let me put it another way. In many world regions, Governments either ignore or actively participate corruption.  the EU isn't perfect but other than North America and Australia its one of the least corrupt regions globally / recognises it does have problems and is attempting to do something about it - your the one that's making one of the reasons for leaving the EU your dislike of corruption, while failing to acknowledge / apparently not even recognising that most of the rest of the world is much worse. I most certainly am not saying that we have to accept corruption because its worse in Russia - just pointing out that the worst ranked EU country is still ranked significantly higher by Transparency International than most and certainly much higher than rt's backers in Russia. Tell me,  how many reports rt have done on corruption in Russia?  Is the point your making  that the EU are corrupt because they broke a promise to report? Thats how its coming across. Plenty of politicians break promises all the time. Failing to report doesn't make them corrupt or bad people though.

 

Who knows what the result of a second referendum would be. The sore winners certainly don't want to take a chance on one - and with 2 years gone and our Government not having a clue what they want from Brexit never mind getting any meaningful negotiations underway it certainly doesn't look too promising. Maybe it's time the politicians became reaquainted with evidence based decision making.

 

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, jake said:

I agree.

And I am guilty of it.

 

But I am not a wm apologist .

I'd say to much EU apologists.

 

Westminster and UK democratic bodies need reforming.

We have a chance to do this.

Trying to reform the EU imo is futile otherwise I'd have voted remain.

I also do not think Scotland can truly prosper as part of the UK which is why I vote independence.

 

I voted brexit for selfish reasons as I want to do anything that will expedite independence and didn't like some of the Euro rhetoric in 2014.

[jake]

3 hours ago, Grumpy said:

Oh my....,

 

You need to lighten up - I disagree with you, get over it, thats debating not being patronising. Your side won the referendum, get over it. You don't think your responses suit my agenda,  they don't get over it. Blissfully ignoring the lies told by the leave campaign. Unable to identify when someones being facetious (that was the bit about the OECD guy being bribed by the way - just in case you haven't worked it out yet). Relying on rt as a credible source.

 

The response on the 30 - 50%, ok you disagree, I was several beers and a bottle of wine down by that point, but let me put it another way. In many world regions, Governments either ignore or actively participate corruption.  the EU isn't perfect but other than North America and Australia its one of the least corrupt regions globally / recognises it does have problems and is attempting to do something about it - your the one that's making one of the reasons for leaving the EU your dislike of corruption, while failing to acknowledge / apparently not even recognising that most of the rest of the world is much worse. I most certainly am not saying that we have to accept corruption because its worse in Russia - just pointing out that the worst ranked EU country is still ranked significantly higher by Transparency International than most and certainly much higher than rt's backers in Russia. Tell me,  how many reports rt have done on corruption in Russia?  Is the point your making  that the EU are corrupt because they broke a promise to report? Thats how its coming across. Plenty of politicians break promises all the time. Failing to report doesn't make them corrupt or bad people though.

 

Who knows what the result of a second referendum would be. The sore winners certainly don't want to take a chance on one - and with 2 years gone and our Government not having a clue what they want from Brexit never mind getting any meaningful negotiations underway it certainly doesn't look too promising. Maybe it's time the politicians became reaquainted with evidence based decision making.

 

To be fair it's hard to judge if someone is at the ham regarding your OECD guy thing.

As for the beer and wine bit I'm guilty of that to buddy.

 

Shaun maybe had a point about me being obsessed.

 

Honestly speaking I loved the brexit vote 

It really shook the establishment.

Fek me mind the face on Boris and he campaigned on leave.

 

All that's needed now is independent Scotland .

 

Since we joined the EU in 73 the gap between rich and poor is back to Victorian levels.

Let that sink in.

[shaun.lawson]

6 hours ago, jake said:

Since we joined the EU in 73 the gap between rich and poor is back to Victorian levels.

Let that sink in.

 

 

Almost all of the rest of Northern Europe is in the EU. And hasn't been ruled by Tory *******s for most of the last 40 years.

 

Let that sink in. 

[Thunderstruck]

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

Almost all of the rest of Northern Europe is in the EU. And hasn't been ruled by Tory *******s for most of the last 40 years.

 

Let that sink in. 

 

That graphic refers to Eurostat as “they” so could you please advise us if the name of the author. I’m sure there is no agenda in play but it would be helpful to be able to check. 

 

Then again, you could visit the actual Eurostat site and look at the array of different measurements. Slightly different to a 3rd Party’s extrapolation.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/GDP_at_regional_level

 

For example:-

[JamboX2]

On 15/06/2018 at 05:27, jake said:

Are you serious?

 

No evidence of corruption.

The facts are that most companies do not bid for EU contracts in many of its member states.

They are either asked directly for money or are not even considered.

 

This corruption  and get this is valued at between 120 billion and 1 trillion euros.

That it has not been tackled with some simple measures is mind boggling.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/corruption-costs-eu-990-billion-year-rand-study-fraud-funding/

 

Anyway looks likely that the establishment has got it's way.

The EU has achieved it's objective again.

To punish the UK for leaving and to warn other member states against doing so.

Quite why you or anyone can view this as respecting with all it's flaws the only chance people have democracy .

Is turning things inside out.

 

Have you any evidence regarding Aaron Banks and Russian interference in the referendum.

No.

Because there is none.

Having lunch with someone is not evidence.

 

More nonsense.

 

 

 

Jake. I will read your politico article and come back to you. But christ sake man, the idea Banks and co are paragons of virtue is bonkers.

 

Why have the leaders of Leave.EU all shunned scrutiny? Why did the Electoral Commission sanction Leave for breaching spending rules? Why was he regularly meeting Russia - which has been shown through investigations here, in the US and Europe to be attempting to undermine the Western Alliance? There are huge gaps in their credibility.

 

Also hypocrisy in accessing and enjoying the EU.

 

Nigel Lawson. Applied for French residency.

Farage. Applied for German passports.

Mogg's investment firm is moving to Ireland to benefit from being in the Single Market.

 

One rule for the well off and rich. One for us lot. 

 

The UK is not being punished. We have voted to leave. You cannot leave a club and expect a good deal in return to use their facilities as though you were a member. When you buy a house does the previous owner get to keep a set of keys and pop in when they please? 

[JamboX2]

On 15/06/2018 at 17:42, Francis Albert said:

"Indirect democracy"? The members of the Lords are now mainly appointed over time  by people who have been  elected . It doesn't make the Lords a democratic body. The fact that a democratically elected body maintains a monarchical system does not make monarchy a democratic body. To deny that there is a serious democratic deficit in the way the EU is structured and operates is actually a dangerous failure to recognise reality for any serious believer in or supporter of the EU and a bigger threat in the long run to the EU than Brexit.

 

 

The Commission is kept in check by the democratically elected European Parliament and democratically elected governments for each EU nation. 

 

The Commission is appointed by member states and then is voted into office by the European Parliament.

 

It is then kept in check by the Governments of EU members by the Council of Ministers  (who are the government ministers of EU nations and set the agenda of what the Commission is to do) and the European Parliament who scrutinise the actions of both the CoM and the Commission.

 

The Lords is an undemocratic body with no accountability to anyone - not even party loyalty stretches that far there. And is largely appointed by grace, favour and donation with some genuine experts who deserve to be there. 

 

The EU is by no means perfect. Perhaps at EU parliamentary elections we should elect our commissioner. Or maybe give more power to the European Parliament. An EU FoI system. I have no issue with seeking to reform it. But you can only do so from within. We are moving to a situation where we will be tied (rightly) to the EU for economic purposes but with 0 say in its rules, future trade deals or it's future course of reform.

 

But to compare it with the Lords... the two are incomparable. One a throw back the other an institution which is constantly under scrutiny.

[jake]

33 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Jake. I will read your politico article and come back to you. But christ sake man, the idea Banks and co are paragons of virtue is bonkers.

 

Why have the leaders of Leave.EU all shunned scrutiny? Why did the Electoral Commission sanction Leave for breaching spending rules? Why was he regularly meeting Russia - which has been shown through investigations here, in the US and Europe to be attempting to undermine the Western Alliance? There are huge gaps in their credibility.

 

Also hypocrisy in accessing and enjoying the EU.

 

Nigel Lawson. Applied for French residency.

Farage. Applied for German passports.

Mogg's investment firm is moving to Ireland to benefit from being in the Single Market.

 

One rule for the well off and rich. One for us lot. 

 

The UK is not being punished. We have voted to leave. You cannot leave a club and expect a good deal in return to use their facilities as though you were a member. When you buy a house does the previous owner get to keep a set of keys and pop in when they please? 

 

33 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Jake. I will read your politico article and come back to you. But christ sake man, the idea Banks and co are paragons of virtue is bonkers.

 

Why have the leaders of Leave.EU all shunned scrutiny? Why did the Electoral Commission sanction Leave for breaching spending rules? Why was he regularly meeting Russia - which has been shown through investigations here, in the US and Europe to be attempting to undermine the Western Alliance? There are huge gaps in their credibility.

 

Also hypocrisy in accessing and enjoying the EU.

 

Nigel Lawson. Applied for French residency.

Farage. Applied for German passports.

Mogg's investment firm is moving to Ireland to benefit from being in the Single Market.

 

One rule for the well off and rich. One for us lot. 

 

The UK is not being punished. We have voted to leave. You cannot leave a club and expect a good deal in return to use their facilities as though you were a member. When you buy a house does the previous owner get to keep a set of keys and pop in when they please? 

 

35 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Jake. I will read your politico article and come back to you. But christ sake man, the idea Banks and co are paragons of virtue is bonkers.

 

Why have the leaders of Leave.EU all shunned scrutiny? Why did the Electoral Commission sanction Leave for breaching spending rules? Why was he regularly meeting Russia - which has been shown through investigations here, in the US and Europe to be attempting to undermine the Western Alliance? There are huge gaps in their credibility.

 

Also hypocrisy in accessing and enjoying the EU.

 

Nigel Lawson. Applied for French residency.

Farage. Applied for German passports.

Mogg's investment firm is moving to Ireland to benefit from being in the Single Market.

 

One rule for the well off and rich. One for us lot. 

 

The UK is not being punished. We have voted to leave. You cannot leave a club and expect a good deal in return to use their facilities as though you were a member. When you buy a house does the previous owner get to keep a set of keys and pop in when they please? 

X2 

I agree regards Banks.

 

The UK is being dealt with to punish it and warn other member states.

Imo .

 

 

[SE16 3LN]

On 15/06/2018 at 10:38, Boris said:

 

Feel free to go in if you have something that answers the question.

Yawn, you really Don't understand democracy do you. I campaigned for remain but a chimp on a bicycle would see the conflict between the EU and it's constituent parts. And if there is something you Don't understand you only need to ask. ??????? Makes you look stupid

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, jake said:

 

 

X2 

I agree regards Banks.

 

So you agree Leave was inherently underhand. Glad we got here

 

Quote

 

The UK is being dealt with to punish it and warn other member states.

Imo .

 

 

 

Nah. Nonsense. We voted to Leave. By leaving something you lose the benefits that go with that. 

 

We've chosen to become a third party to the EU. Rightly - as it does with all third parties - we won't get as good a deal as being a Member of the EU. Best we can hope for is a Norway style deal. But the government don't want that. So we will get a pretty bad deal.

 

You join a gym. You rescind your membership. You can't then nip in to use the equipment whenever you want.

 

[Ulysses]

13 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Nah. Nonsense. We voted to Leave. By leaving something you lose the benefits that go with that. 

 

 

Precisely.

 

You voted to leave.  So leave.

 

You don't get to break up a relationship with someone and leave their home, and then call back in to get your hole, take a shite, get a free feed or chuck your rubbish in their bins whenever the mood takes you.  Well, maybe you do if you live in a fantasy land, but that's not generally how it works in the real world.

 

There's no need for any negotiations on any deal.  The deal is really, really simple.  The UK wants to leave, and all it has to do is leave.  But if the UK wants a trade deal, it has to be prepared to make compromises.  The chancers and liars who promoted a Leave vote didn't tell you that.  Maybe they were just lying to you for its own sake, or maybe they really believed that the UK could persuade the rest of us to be friends with benefits and ride us sideways while giving **** all back.  Well, whoever might have believed that fantasy two years ago, only the most deluded political semi-literates could possibly believe it now.

[Ulysses]

Overnight, I see that the least capable Prime Minister in modern British history is planning to borrow an additional £740 per household per year to fund the NHS. 

 

That's an extra £20 billion a year on top of what your government is already borrowing....

 

.....so that the NHS can have a lower level of funding increase in the future than it's had in the past. 

 

 

And this extra borrowing, that will have to be paid back by Britain's taxpayers and by their children and grandchildren, is being called.......

 

 

a Brexit dividend.     

Edited June 17, 2018 by Ulysses

[Ulysses]

Wait, sorry, I was wrong.  That money is just for the English NHS.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-44495598

 

Whatever. 

[Thunderstruck]

23 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

Wait, sorry, I was wrong.  That money is just for the English NHS.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-44495598

 

Whatever. 

 

 

From the link you just quoted...

 

“The announcement means extra money will also be made available for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although it will be up to the Welsh and Scottish governments to decide how that is spent.”

[Ulysses]

25 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

 

From the link you just quoted...

 

“The announcement means extra money will also be made available for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although it will be up to the Welsh and Scottish governments to decide how that is spent.”

 

Ah, I missed that.

 

That's good news, because everyone in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will also have to pay the borrowed money back.  Although the least competent Prime Minister in modern British history says that it might not all be borrowed - some of it might be funded by higher taxes.

 

Thunderstruck, send me £100, and I'll do two things that you'll really like.  First of all, I'll spend it on something useful or enjoyable, and I'll get some good use out of it or else have some good fun with it.  Secondly, I'll post a message here thanking you, and asking if you enjoyed and appreciated it too.  And because I'll call it a "JKB Brexit Shed Discussion Dividend", your answer will inevitably be yes. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

Overnight, I see that the least capable Prime Minister in modern British history is planning to borrow an additional £740 per household per year to fund the NHS. 

 

That's an extra £20 billion a year on top of what your government is already borrowing....

 

.....so that the NHS can have a lower level of funding increase in the future than it's had in the past. 

 

 

And this extra borrowing, that will have to be paid back by Britain's taxpayers and by their children and grandchildren, is being called.......

 

 

a Brexit dividend.     

2023/2024? she'll be long gone by then (she'll not see out 2018) and that promise will be consigned to the dustbin of history. 

 

It'll be lapped up by the mail/express types with a justification that this is precisely why we are leaving Europe. 

 

Like everything else that comes out her mouth it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[jake]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

So you agree Leave was inherently underhand. Glad we got here

 

 

Nah. Nonsense. We voted to Leave. By leaving something you lose the benefits that go with that. 

 

We've chosen to become a third party to the EU. Rightly - as it does with all third parties - we won't get as good a deal as being a Member of the EU. Best we can hope for is a Norway style deal. But the government don't want that. So we will get a pretty bad deal.

 

You join a gym. You rescind your membership. You can't then nip in to use the equipment whenever you want.

 

That's not what I said.

 

Do you agree that the remain campaign told blatant lies .

You probably won't .

There's a lot .

 

Also as a member of the gym I'd like to know why it is I have to pay extortionate fees to be released.

Why it's so difficult to leave.

Also as the owner of a market which sells the gyms products I'd remind them not to get to wide.

I'd also suggest that because I'd been a premium member who helped finance the gym that they are lucky I'm not claiming a refund for some of the equipment.

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by jake

[jake]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Precisely.

 

You voted to leave.  So leave.

 

You don't get to break up a relationship with someone and leave their home, and then call back in to get your hole, take a shite, get a free feed or chuck your rubbish in their bins whenever the mood takes you.  Well, maybe you do if you live in a fantasy land, but that's not generally how it works in the real world.

 

There's no need for any negotiations on any deal.  The deal is really, really simple.  The UK wants to leave, and all it has to do is leave.  But if the UK wants a trade deal, it has to be prepared to make compromises.  The chancers and liars who promoted a Leave vote didn't tell you that.  Maybe they were just lying to you for its own sake, or maybe they really believed that the UK could persuade the rest of us to be friends with benefits and ride us sideways while giving **** all back.  Well, whoever might have believed that fantasy two years ago, only the most deluded political semi-literates could possibly believe it now.

I think most leave voters want to just leave.

I think you will find it's those who want to remain that are putting hurdles in place.

 

In any break up that involves mature adults it should go smoothly .

Consideration is taken of the contribution both have made to the building of the home etc.

 

I think the UK as the second largest contributor should be shown a bit more respect and so should democracy by the bitter ex who can't accept that the UK wants to move on.

Move on from a fat overweight self serving selfish control freak.

 

And what's more wouldn't want a ride of them again as they are a shite ride.

 

?

 

I'm enjoying this.

[jake]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Overnight, I see that the least capable Prime Minister in modern British history is planning to borrow an additional £740 per household per year to fund the NHS. 

 

That's an extra £20 billion a year on top of what your government is already borrowing....

 

.....so that the NHS can have a lower level of funding increase in the future than it's had in the past. 

 

 

And this extra borrowing, that will have to be paid back by Britain's taxpayers and by their children and grandchildren, is being called.......

 

 

a Brexit dividend.     

Can you name me some western democracies who have not got debt levels similar to the UK ?

 

20 billion more on top of the over 700 billion we found to prop up failing businesses who laughably called themselves banks seems very little.

 

And how you come to name this the brexit dividend shows your ignorance as to how capitalism works .

And how this debt will only increase.

 

If you believe the EU will solve that or remaining in the EU will stall it then you are blind to reality.

 

 

[Ulysses]

22 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

2023/2024? she'll be long gone by then (she'll not see out 2018) and that promise will be consigned to the dustbin of history. 

 

It'll be lapped up by the mail/express types with a justification that this is precisely why we are leaving Europe. 

 

Like everything else that comes out her mouth it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

 

According to the IFS, she's lying on the double.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-may-s-promise-of-funding-nhs-through-brexit-dividend-dismissed-as-tosh-by-senior-tory-a3864916.html

 

If there is any saving from exiting the EU, the money has already been earmarked by government, and according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies the government has already accepted that the public finances will we weakened by £15 billion annually.

 

So if you take that extra £15 billion, note that there's no extra EU money available, and add it to the £20 billion in extra spending just announced by the least capable Prime Minister in modern British history, your "Brexit dividend" now stands at a loss of £35 billion a year - that's a cost of £1,291 per household per year. 

 

And that's so that you'll have increases in NHS resourcing that are LOWER than the increases that have existed up to now.

 

[Adam_the_legend]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The UK is not being punished. We have voted to leave. You cannot leave a club and expect a good deal in return to use their facilities as though you were a member. When you buy a house does the previous owner get to keep a set of keys and pop in when they please? 

 

I find these “club member” metaphors irrelevant. The UK’s relationship with the EU over the last 40 years is far more complex than joining a club and then leaving a club.

 

If you consider how much money and influence the UK has injected into the EU project since we joined it, the political nuance behind the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties, the uk’s refusal to join the Euro, it makes these bloody club member comparisons completely useless. 

 

4 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The Commission is kept in check by the democratically elected European Parliament and democratically elected governments for each EU nation. 

 

The Commission is appointed by member states and then is voted into office by the European Parliament.

 

It is then kept in check by the Governments of EU members by the Council of Ministers  (who are the government ministers of EU nations and set the agenda of what the Commission is to do) and the European Parliament who scrutinise the actions of both the CoM and the Commission.

 

The Lords is an undemocratic body with no accountability to anyone - not even party loyalty stretches that far there. And is largely appointed by grace, favour and donation with some genuine experts who deserve to be there. 

 

The EU is by no means perfect. Perhaps at EU parliamentary elections we should elect our commissioner. Or maybe give more power to the European Parliament. An EU FoI system. I have no issue with seeking to reform it. But you can only do so from within. We are moving to a situation where we will be tied (rightly) to the EU for economic purposes but with 0 say in its rules, future trade deals or it's future course of reform.

 

But to compare it with the Lords... the two are incomparable. One a throw back the other an institution which is constantly under scrutiny.

 

I hate the Lords, and agree it’s as undemocratic as they come but your defence of the EU system is a stretch. I don’t want to be part of an EU superstate which is where it’s heading, of this I have no doubt. The Westminster system isn’t perfect, far from it, but the EU alternative would be far, far worse, I am convinced of this. 

[Ulysses]

9 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

I find these “club member” metaphors irrelevant. The UK’s relationship with the EU over the last 40 years is far more complex than joining a club and then leaving a club.

 

 

Relevant or not, the fact is that the EU is a group of members with an agreed trading structure.  The UK wishes to leave.  Fine, let it leave.  But if it wants a preferable trading arrangement with the EU to what the rest of the world has, then it has to make compromises.  If the UK is not prepared to make compromises, then it simply cannot expect to have a preferential relationship.  The same applies in reverse - but the difference between the UK and the EU 27 is that we seem to recognise that and you don't.

 

9 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

I hate the Lords, and agree it’s as undemocratic as they come but your defence of the EU system is a stretch. I don’t want to be part of an EU superstate which is where it’s heading, of this I have no doubt. The Westminster system isn’t perfect, far from it, but the EU alternative would be far, far worse, I am convinced of this. 

 

 

The EU appears undemocratic because there isn't an easily identifiable connection between what the voters do and what happens.  Why?  Because the EU's structures are a hybrid of different constitutional systems, not at all like national parliamentary or presidential government systems.  But one of the main reasons for that is the insistence of individual member states that the Council of the European Union be retained.  You and I don't elect that, so it seems undemocratic.  Instead, it is appointed by national governments. 

 

And therein lies a paradox for the EU.  The Council makes the EU less democratic - and at the same time the council make the creation of a "superstate" harder to achieve.  If you replace the Council with something else (e.g. a parliamentary system or direct election of an EU executive), you'll make the EU more directly democratic - and more like a federal superstate.  You can't really have it both ways.

 

The Lords though?  What a heap of ****, surely?  Can't you replace it with an elected upper house? 

[Adam_the_legend]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Relevant or not, the fact is that the EU is a group of members with an agreed trading structure.  The UK wishes to leave.  Fine, let it leave.  But if it wants a preferable trading arrangement with the EU to what the rest of the world has, then it has to make compromises.  If the UK is not prepared to make compromises, then it simply cannot expect to have a preferential relationship.  The same applies in reverse - but the difference between the UK and the EU 27 is that we seem to recognise that and you don't.

 

 

The EU appears undemocratic because there isn't an easily identifiable connection between what the voters do and what happens.  Why?  Because the EU's structures are a hybrid of different constitutional systems, not at all like national parliamentary or presidential government systems.  But one of the main reasons for that is the insistence of individual member states that the Council of the European Union be retained.  You and I don't elect that, so it seems undemocratic.  Instead, it is appointed by national governments. 

 

And therein lies a paradox for the EU.  The Council makes the EU less democratic - and at the same time the council make the creation of a "superstate" harder to achieve.  If you replace the Council with something else (e.g. a parliamentary system or direct election of an EU executive), you'll make the EU more directly democratic - and more like a federal superstate.  You can't really have it both ways.

 

The Lords though?  What a heap of ****, surely?  Can't you replace it with an elected upper house? 

 

Who is suggesting we think we can get everything without compromises? The real debate is what that compromise looks like but, hyperbole aside, I don’t think anyone is realistically expecting either side to get everything they want. 

 

You either believe in the EU project or you don’t. If it served its original purpose as a trading bloc I’d have no problems, but the push for ever closer political and economical Union is not something I believe in or want.

 

In actual fact I believe due the the nature of the EU the closer the union the more likely it will fail. And when it does fail, I’ll be glad we have exited and got our affairs in order so as not to be impacted in the same manner as the countries who will still be members. 

 

The lords? Well, that’s a constant debate but I doubt it’ll be dealt with until after Brexit, unless they continue to interfere in the way they are with Brexit, that could speed up it’s demise. 

[JamboX2]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Wait, sorry, I was wrong.  That money is just for the English NHS.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-44495598

 

Whatever. 

Barnet consequentials mean Wales, Scotland and NI get a proportionate rise.

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, jake said:

That's not what I said.

 

Do you agree that the remain campaign told blatant lies .

You probably won't .

There's a lot .

 

They were?

 

2 hours ago, jake said:

 

Also as a member of the gym I'd like to know why it is I have to pay extortionate fees to be released.

 

As a gym member you pay a subscription. There may penalty clauses for early termination.

 

Moving off the analogy. The UK made financial commitments to programmes and services we did used to benefit from - EU development funds for example. We pledged that money. Do you want us to renege on our commitments? Be a bad neighbour? 

 

2 hours ago, jake said:

Why it's so difficult to leave.

 

Because it's a highly integrated organisation which regulates european trade, invests huge sums in member states, has it's own civil service and court and regulates EU trade with other nations and groups across the world. It provides members the ability to have NO customs borders and provides reciprocal rights to all its member states citizens. 

 

It's not easy to fundamentally change that relationship. If you think it is then I don't think you get the EU that much.

 

2 hours ago, jake said:

Also as the owner of a market which sells the gyms products I'd remind them not to get to wide.

I'd also suggest that because I'd been a premium member who helped finance the gym that they are lucky I'm not claiming a refund for some of the equipment.

 

 

You've got to be kidding? Premium member? All members are equal! We also got more out in structural and development funds than Germany and France. A very generous rebate. Had more opt outs than most. Full benefit of a market of 300 million Europeans and of ALL the EU's trade deals. Our governments made the EU what it is now: pushed the single market, pushed for more cross border security working, demanded enlargement. We had a solidly good deal in the EU and were key to running the show when we had governments willing to engage (unlike Cameron). 

 

We got a premium deal in the EU. To argue we should get more of a rebate than we had when we were in is ludicrous. 

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

I hate the Lords, and agree it’s as undemocratic as they come but your defence of the EU system is a stretch. I don’t want to be part of an EU superstate which is where it’s heading, of this I have no doubt. The Westminster system isn’t perfect, far from it, but the EU alternative would be far, far worse, I am convinced of this. 

 

The trade off then is the UK losing safety in numbers. American business is more concerned with a European market place of 300 odd million consumers over one of 60 odd million. Added to that - we've a government with 0 international standing. We mean zilch at the moment to our allies which is clearly shown by recent events over Syria, Iran and the Trade issues with America. 

 

That's not a great place to be in. Safety in numbers makes more sense to me than being exposed to the whims of the EU, Putin, China and Trump who don't need to consider our interests as important anymore.

 

I hope I'm wrong but the idea the WTO is going to do much for our trade and protect us is bonkers.

[Adam_the_legend]

38 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The trade off then is the UK losing safety in numbers. American business is more concerned with a European market place of 300 odd million consumers over one of 60 odd million. Added to that - we've a government with 0 international standing. We mean zilch at the moment to our allies which is clearly shown by recent events over Syria, Iran and the Trade issues with America. 

 

That's not a great place to be in. Safety in numbers makes more sense to me than being exposed to the whims of the EU, Putin, China and Trump who don't need to consider our interests as important anymore.

 

I hope I'm wrong but the idea the WTO is going to do much for our trade and protect us is bonkers.

 

Objectively, I think you’re over reacting to our standing on the world stage. Using definitions like zero and zilch doesn’t give your argument any weight because they are patently false. I know (hope) you’re exaggerating to make a point.

 

safety in numbers is a concept we teach our children to keep them safe, I’m not sure it translates into the real world. Sheer numbers is not the only part of the equation. It’s funny, I believe leaving the EU will make us more able to adapt to the changing economic and political challenges of the world.

 

EU is like an oil tanker trying to turn, an independent UK will be a like a frigate, large but far more manoeuvrable. The world will continue to change at an incredible pace, being free of the EU will allow us to take advantage of opportunities that the slow moving EU will not. 

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

Objectively, I think you’re over reacting to our standing on the world stage. Using definitions like zero and zilch doesn’t give your argument any weight because they are patently false. I know (hope) you’re exaggerating to make a point.

 

I think that our international influence has certainly declined from Cameron taking office in 2010 through to now. We have taken a very solitary stance within the EU when we were fully in and now we stand pretty much alone in Europe. Yes we have NATO. But NATO is a military alliance. Canada and Turkey are in NATO but I'd hardly argue they are our "key" allies anymore than Australia and New Zealand are.

 

Trump's election means we are not the big ally there either. Trump is isolationist and is ignorant to the concerns of his allies in trade, defence and co-operation. Our PM and Foreign Secretary were talking on deaf ears over Iran, the Paris Accords and the tariffs imposed on America's trading partners. On Syria, Trump has been closer to the French than ourselves and has been pally-ing up with Macron. That's a worrying situation for the UK to be in, imo. There's been a number of articles on diplomatic leaks showing the US State Department and the White House are favouring stronger ties with France now because they - rather than us - will be their voice in the EU. What do we have to offer now? 

 

Globally, we have shot ourselves in the foot also over our overt backing of the Saudi's in Yemen, our lack of influence in Israel/Palestine is noticeable and we don't seem to be leading on anything in foreign affairs from climate change and international development (where we did lead) to being an honest broker (where we had been in Sierra Leone, Burma, Sri Lanka).

 

A lot of this is to do with an utterly inept and uninterested in his job Foreign Secretary. But to have left the EU at the same time as Trump's cavalier foreign policy is in fulle swing, the rise in Russian aggression and the instability in the middle east is frankly daft and makes no sense. But 52% of a voters in an electorate have decided this to be the case and so we move on.

 

In future we will find ourselves punching at our weight, not above it. 

 

3 hours ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

safety in numbers is a concept we teach our children to keep them safe, I’m not sure it translates into the real world. Sheer numbers is not the only part of the equation. It’s funny, I believe leaving the EU will make us more able to adapt to the changing economic and political challenges of the world.

 

It really does though. UK exports to America being hit with tariffs will hurt more if there is no fall back market of equivalent size to rely on - i.e. the EU. A market of 300 million plus with freedom of goods and services between members is a safer place to be in than a smaller one trying to make it out it has more to offer than it does. I mean, we don't even have an economic strategy worthy of the name being implemented at present. It's a bit nuts. 

 

Another example would be the Facebook scandals. Zuckerburg is ignoring the UK Parliament. He has, however, accepted the EU Parliament's invite. There is a lot to be said on being in as big a market as possible when it comes to regulating these multinationals. Especially given the near absence of action or ability to act from the WTO. 

 

3 hours ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

EU is like an oil tanker trying to turn, an independent UK will be a like a frigate, large but far more manoeuvrable. The world will continue to change at an incredible pace, being free of the EU will allow us to take advantage of opportunities that the slow moving EU will not. 

 

The UK is free to set it's economic course within the EU as it pleases. The idea we will be able to get trade deals quicker just doesn't add up. America spent over a decade on trying to get the Trans Pacific Partnership deal up and running before Trump took office. Trade deals take a long time to negotiate. But here's the rub of it - the EU already has free trade deals we approved as a member state with the places we want to take advantage of. It may be an inherent weakness of our own business sectors to not have taken advantage of this already. In my view it is.

 

What we must remember through all of this when it comes about is we have two choices: race to the bottom economics of the kind favoured by many of the Brexiter brigade were we slash tariffs and allow our economy to be flooded with goods we make ourselves which would destroy our domestic manufacturers or we have strong customs policies and protect our native industries (which EU wide external tariff walls were doing for us now). I know I'm in the latter camp. My real fear is that our government(s) won't be.

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

Who is suggesting we think we can get everything without compromises? The real debate is what that compromise looks like but, hyperbole aside, I don’t think anyone is realistically expecting either side to get everything they want. 

 

You either believe in the EU project or you don’t. If it served its original purpose as a trading bloc I’d have no problems, but the push for ever closer political and economical Union is not something I believe in or want.

 

In actual fact I believe due the the nature of the EU the closer the union the more likely it will fail. And when it does fail, I’ll be glad we have exited and got our affairs in order so as not to be impacted in the same manner as the countries who will still be members. 

 

The lords? Well, that’s a constant debate but I doubt it’ll be dealt with until after Brexit, unless they continue to interfere in the way they are with Brexit, that could speed up it’s demise. 

 

Thanks for showing you've read the advertising blurbs of the Leave campaign.  It wouldn't have been a bad idea at all if you'd read what I posted and had a go at absorbing it before replying, especially because it might have saved you posting your non sequitur about the question of closer union within the EU.

 

But c'est la vie, as they say in Germany.

[Adam_the_legend]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Thanks for showing you've read the advertising blurbs of the Leave campaign.  It wouldn't have been a bad idea at all if you'd read what I posted and had a go at absorbing it before replying, especially because it might have saved you posting your non sequitur about the question of closer union within the EU.

 

But c'est la vie, as they say in Germany.

 

Ah yes, condescension, a truly effective way to convince someone of your point of view. You must be a blast at parties. 

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Because it's a highly integrated organisation which regulates european trade, invests huge sums in member states, has it's own civil service and court and regulates EU trade with other nations and groups across the world. It provides members the ability to have NO customs borders and provides reciprocal rights to all its member states citizens. 

 

 

That's a good answer, but in fairness the question asked was why is it so difficult to leave.  It isn't difficult at all; you decide to leave, post notice, and wait two years.  I don't think that's difficult at all.  It's possible some people think that waiting two years is a bit long.  I don't, but then I'm not 8.  And even if it seems like a long time, it's because a group of sovereign governments agreed to that notice period.

 

Any difficulty in this process has been caused by two factors.  One is the naive belief of many voters and many politicians in the UK that you could get the same access to the markets of the EU 27 without making the same compromises you do today.  The other is the ineptitude of the British government in working out a clear view of what it wants and how to achieve it.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

Ah yes, condescension, a truly effective way to convince someone of your point of view. You must be a blast at parties. 

 

You either didn't read my post or else you didn't understand it.  If you had, you wouldn't have posted your comment about "closer union".

 

You won.  Get over it. 

[Ulysses]

27 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

 

....convince someone of your point of view....

 

Oh, I missed this.  I'm not trying to convince you of my point of view.  I'm not troubled by what your point of view is, whether or not it's the same as mine, and whether or not you change it at any point.  I just appreciate it more when I see people making an effort to be original rather than just repeating the opinions and clichés of others.  There are some people who think that you got it all wrong and that your vote should be ignored.  If you look back over my posts you'll see that I'm not one of those.