Hard Brexit

[jake]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

So those deals were set up by us whilst still a member of the eu. 

Yes.

 

Were we not told that no one would wish to deal with the UK even if we voted.

 

 

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

Yes.

 

Were we not told that no one would wish to deal with the UK even if we voted.

 

 

Weren't we also told that we couldn't do this as we were in the eu?

[jake]

I do have to laugh at those who see the EU as some kind of vanguard against big business.

It's exactly the opposite .

[Boris]

1 minute ago, jake said:

I do have to laugh at those who see the EU as some kind of vanguard against big business.

It's exactly the opposite .

And Johnson, Fox, Gove et al are?

 

Youve been sold a pup, mate!

[jake]

Just now, Boris said:

Weren't we also told that we couldn't do this as we were in the eu?

We can only trade with those approved I believe.

And under the framework of EU legislation .

 

Legislation by the way which favours multi national companies and over rides national parliaments .

Especially concerning workers rights.

I've already posted examples of this.

Where companies have undercut unionised workforces with agency labour.

 

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

And Johnson, Fox, Gove et al are?

 

Youve been sold a pup, mate!

 

They are not who or what I voted for.

There is a difference though Boris.

 

We are able to unelect them.

We are able to elect are government which can change legislation in regards to all aspects of policy.

 

If we don't leave the EU now we will forever be tied to it.

The EU is wonderfully undemocratic .

 

This isn't Tory v the EU.

 

It may be that Tories lead the argument but Corbynn amongst other notable politicians from the left object to the EU.

 

You are the one being sold a kipper mate.

 

 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, jake said:

 

They are not who or what I voted for.

There is a difference though Boris.

 

We are able to unelect them.

We are able to elect are government which can change legislation in regards to all aspects of policy.

 

If we don't leave the EU now we will forever be tied to it.

The EU is wonderfully undemocratic .

 

This isn't Tory v the EU.

 

It may be that Tories lead the argument but Corbynn amongst other notable politicians from the left object to the EU.

 

You are the one being sold a kipper mate.

 

 

Can we unelect them with our archaic "democratic" system? I'm not sure. 

I also don't think that the eu is as undemocratic as its painted. 

Given the mess Western democracy is in, now would be time for reform of the eu, and the UK should be in there, front centre leading that reform. But we have decided to be insular, led to it by the right, with vain glorious notions of Britain and its place in the world. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

 

As you know we can. Don’t confuse not doing something for being unable to do something.

 

Despite what many claim there is little appetite within the electorate for change to the democratic process.

 

Your last para made me laugh.

Haha, true to a point. Fptp is shan. 

Glad you laughed! 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

As you know we can. Don’t confuse not doing something for being unable to do something.

 

Despite what many claim there is little appetite within the electorate for change to the democratic process.

 

Your last para made me laugh.

I'm not so sure about lack of appetite.

Given the Indy EU and Irish referendums I think there is.

 

What has made people apathetic imo is that there is very little difference in mainstream politics.

 

Being told to keep the same systems because there is no alternative switches people of.

Accepting the house of lords etc.

 

Smaller government reflecting a populations consciousness is rubbished while remote centralised corrupt unaccountable organisations are championed as guarding the interests of people.

 

Just don't get it.

[Cade]

You don't get to vote for who gets Cabinet posts. The PM simply gives them the job.

You don't get to vote for Prime Minister. The party in control of Parliament appoints it's own leader as PM.

You don't get to vote for most of the Lords.

You can't recall any MP you do get to vote for.

First Past The Post means that a party winning a minority of the popular vote can have control of parliament.

The UK is not exactly a shining beacon of democracy.

[shaun.lawson]

11 hours ago, jake said:

We can only trade with those approved I believe.

And under the framework of EU legislation .

 

 

The UK, to its never-ending shame, has an arms deal with Saudi Arabia. Is that because we're bound by the EU please?

 

If the answer's "no", it dismantles your whole argument.

[Notts1874]

It seems Arron Banks may be not being as honest as possible about Russian involvement with Leave EU.

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

It seems Arron Banks may be not being as honest as possible about Russian involvement with Leave EU.

 

And Cambridge Analytica too. 

[jake]

6 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The UK, to its never-ending shame, has an arms deal with Saudi Arabia. Is that because we're bound by the EU please?

 

If the answer's "no", it dismantles your whole argument.

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make here .

France sells more military hardware to the Saudis than all other EU countries combined if that helps.

 

I believe I'm right in saying that the UK government if it so wished could not stop British companies from selling military hardware as this Would be challenged under EU law.

 

If that's so it dismantles the intention of your post.

Although I wouldn't be so silly as to say it dismantles your whole argument.

 

Please feel to correct me as you being a remain voter are much more intelligent.

 

[SE16 3LN]

19 hours ago, Cade said:

You don't get to vote for who gets Cabinet posts. The PM simply gives them the job.

You don't get to vote for Prime Minister. The party in control of Parliament appoints it's own leader as PM.

You don't get to vote for most of the Lords.

You can't recall any MP you do get to vote for.

First Past The Post means that a party winning a minority of the popular vote can have control of parliament.

The UK is not exactly a shining beacon of democracy.

There are problems with the UK's democracy and we have the opportunity to sort that out at least every five years at a National level. We also have devolved parliaments, locally elected representatives and we and we have had two major opportunities to vote on supposedly single issues in the past few years. If you want more democracy you can actively campaign to change it through central and devolved political systems. 

 

As my African colleagues tell me, this country (the UK) probably saved our lives, gave us a quality of life free from harassment and worse that they could only have dreamt of when they grew up in war torn, corrupt and/or totalitarian regimes. There are not a lot of places in the world you can say that about and that for me, makes our democracy worth improving, but also defending from professional moaners, misguided critics and dickheads who don't recognise any of the above. 

[shaun.lawson]

13 hours ago, jake said:

I believe I'm right in saying that the UK government if it so wished could not stop British companies from selling military hardware as this Would be challenged under EU law.

 

 

Sorry, what's this? British companies can sell to whoever they like right now? Well blow me down. I thought the evil EU wouldn't let us do what we wanted.

 

And when a country's companies already have the ability to do this, but a country's government is pulling out of the largest single market in the world, that enormous loss isn't going to be magically filled by bazillions of new deals made on the same beneficial terms. Economic self-harm ahoy.

[jake]

6 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Sorry, what's this? British companies can sell to whoever they like right now? Well blow me down. I thought the evil EU wouldn't let us do what we wanted.

 

And when a country's companies already have the ability to do this, but a country's government is pulling out of the largest single market in the world, that enormous loss isn't going to be magically filled by bazillions of new deals made on the same beneficial terms. Economic self-harm ahoy.

When will you learn.

The EU is not the world's largest single market.

And our ability to trade with the many other markets out there is determined by the EU laws.

 

So yes as I say British companies can deal with anyone.

So what is the point of the middleman.

 

Oh and why no criticism of the EU and a lack of directive regarding arms sales from it's members.

Especially as the UK you are so hateful of is not even the biggest culprit.

 

 

Oh and Shaun please stop the scaremongering it's so beneath someone of your superior intelligence.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

Jaguar Landrover upping sticks and moving ALL production from Solihull to Slovakia.

 

Guess that’s what the Midlands voted for, Brexit means Brexit. 

 

 

 

 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

Jaguar Landrover upping sticks and moving ALL production from Solihull to Slovakia.

 

Guess that’s what the Midlands voted for, Brexit means Brexit. 

 

 

 

 

The plant you refer to is upgrading to electric car production.

According to those in the know it's a positive.

 

Spacey stop using the same lying scaremongering tactics you rally against.

 

Agency jobs are to be lost .

This is not a result of Brexit.

 

?

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, jake said:

The plant you refer to is upgrading to electric car production.

According to those in the know it's a positive.

 

Spacey stop using the same lying scaremongering tactics you rally against.

 

Agency jobs are to be lost .

This is not a result of Brexit.

 

?

 

Nothing to see here either jake I suppose. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

[Governor Tarkin]

On 6/9/2018 at 10:16, Victorian said:

That's the one (unintended) consequential positive to result from the utter shambles that masquerades as the Tory government administration of Brexit.     The increasingltly credible possibility of a second referendum.

 

Lots of people refer to certain aspects of the Brexit process and related consequences as things that were never voted on,  or for.     One thing we didn't vote for was for the process to be managed by Laurel & Hardy.    We didn't vote for the wider process to be dominated by and hamstrung by the narrow political and religious skullduggery in Ireland.     

 

The whole thing has been invalidated by the gross incompetence of a gang of very wealthy political idealists who hold no stake of risk in the outcomes.    Propped up by an increasingly assertive rabble of socially retarded religious zealots.      

 

This Brexit is a wrong 'un.     We should have the chance to restart the entire thing.

 

The long and short of it right there.

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The long and short of it right there.

 

Mostly shorts from this Brexiteer. 

 

Apologoies for the scummy link.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/investing/article-5824697/Brexiteer-Odey-bets-500m-AGAINST-British-businesses.html

[Governor Tarkin]

7 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Mostly shorts from this Brexiteer. 

 

Apologoies for the scummy link.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/investing/article-5824697/Brexiteer-Odey-bets-500m-AGAINST-British-businesses.html

 

Apology accepted.

 

Would like to see Odey and his ilk up against the wall, to be honest.

[SE16 3LN]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Nothing to see here either jake I suppose. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

What point are you trying to make? 

 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

What point are you trying to make? 

 

 

 

 

?

[Notts1874]

The Sun front page tomorrow.......with a couple of adjustments via a very funny twitter account.

 

 

[jake]

4 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Nothing to see here either jake I suppose. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

I addressed this scaremongering story when Shaun quoted it.

 

I see you have dropped the previous lie.

 

If Brexit fails it fails stop making things up.

 

And think about this.

Should Scotland gain independence these very same nonsense stories will be told.

Just cannot get my head round those who wish to leave one union but join another which is almost impossible to leave.

And one which is has a severe democratic deficit.

[Boris]

6 hours ago, jake said:

 

And one which is has a severe democratic deficit.

 

Such as?

[shaun.lawson]

[jake]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Such as?

Just a quick answer just now buddy but voter apathy throughout Europe towards the elections for it's parliament.

Considering the power it wields it's only just recently that public attention is being brought to it.

On tea break but will post other examples .

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by jake

[The Brow]

The main issue with Brexit, for me, is that hardly anyone knows what the **** they voted for (at a high level). 

 

My head almost burst at the weekend when I overheard apparently intelligent people discussing that once Brexit is over, the welsh assembly will be able to raise and lower taxes. 

 

What. The. ****. 

 

Add into that the fact that people genuinely think there is some form of muslim invasion an that Brexit will suddenly solve the immigration issue, and I just have to shrug and ignore it. What will be will be. 

[Boris]

48 minutes ago, jake said:

Just a quick answer just now buddy but voter apathy throughout Europe towards the elections for it's parliament.

Considering the power it wields it's only just recently that public attention is being brought to it.

On tea break but will post other examples .

 

 

But that doesn't make it undemocratic. 

 

Can't read your graph unfortunately, too small and my eyes ain't what they used to be... 

[Cade]

Weak&Wobbly offers Tory rebels a concession on a meaningful Commons vote on the final deal in order to avoid multiple defeats today on the 15 Lords amendments to the Brexit Bill.

 

"No deal" is effectively off the table now.

[JamboX2]

A few points on today:

 

- The tide has turned, slowly, away from the Brexiteers. A meaningful vote plus the 5B amendment from Grieve allowing the Commons to direct government action to avoid new deal is a major blow to the Moggs and Hoeys.

 

- Next big fight is in the Lords when the amendments from government are brought.

 

- Aaron Banks is a threat to British democracy based on his antics today.

[jake]

11 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

- Aaron Banks is a threat to British democracy based on his antics today.

I would agree .

 

But then I would say that is true of western politics in regards to the influence of money affecting policy or backing political movements.

The EU being particularly threatened by this.

 

Is that fair to say x2 ?

[JamboX2]

8 minutes ago, jake said:

I would agree .

 

But then I would say that is true of western politics in regards to the influence of money affecting policy or backing political movements.

The EU being particularly threatened by this.

 

Is that fair to say x2 ?

 

Nah you of all people can't have it both ways. The EU is now working on pan-EU ways to regulate social media firms better, to protect personal data and regulate money being sloshed about the system from state actors like Russia.

 

Brexit was in part brought about by bending the rules to an extent that undermined the UKs democratic processes and electoral laws to leave that body.

 

Banks is insidious and flouncing off to meet the DUP from a committee shows how lowly he views an institution he supposedly wants to empower.

[SE16 3LN]

On 12/06/2018 at 06:48, Boris said:

 

Such as?

Read the previous 29 pages or ask the Italians

[Boris]

10 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Read the previous 29 pages or ask the Italians

 

I have, and unfortunately don't speak Italian, but the mechanisms of the EU are primarily democratic, and accountable.

 

The Euro and ECB etc, well, that's not the EU per se.

 

So, highlight the undemocratic areas of the EU.

[Adam Murray]

You'll like Comrade Gorbachevs take on the EU, Boris 

[jake]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Nah you of all people can't have it both ways. The EU is now working on pan-EU ways to regulate social media firms better, to protect personal data and regulate money being sloshed about the system from state actors like Russia.

 

Brexit was in part brought about by bending the rules to an extent that undermined the UKs democratic processes and electoral laws to leave that body.

 

Banks is insidious and flouncing off to meet the DUP from a committee shows how lowly he views an institution he supposedly wants to empower.

Woah.

Can't have it both ways ?

 

I'm talking about people with money influencing politics.

Are you seriously holding up the EU as an example of not pandering to high finance?

 

Shall I spam this thread with countless examples?

 

For the millionth time just because I'm anti EU does not mean I support the Tories.

I had hoped when I answered your post that it would lead to an honest assessment.

It's actually you who wants it both ways.

 

[jake]

29 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

You'll like Comrade Gorbachevs take on the EU, Boris 

Wished I'd found that.

Summed up beautifully.

[Boris]

29 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

You'll like Comrade Gorbachevs take on the EU, Boris 

Haha. 

 

Believe it or not, the EU got the economy a bit better than he did in the USSR. And human rights etc etc etc.

 

Dont get me wrong, the EU is crying out for reform. I'd much rather we were in it leading that reform than not.

[Cade]

Wetherspoons are dropping German, Swedish and French alcohols in favour of far lower quality and more expensive cat piss from Australia, the UK and other non-EU nations.

 

Pathetic.

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

Well done the SNP. Walking out of that undemocratic pit of a place. 

[jake]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Wetherspoons are dropping German, Swedish and French alcohols in favour of far lower quality and more expensive cat piss from Australia, the UK and other non-EU nations.

 

Pathetic.

 

 

? 

 

Aw man that's a belter.

 

 

[jake]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465639

 

But but how can this be surely the EU protects workers .

Who would have thought a simple prole from the UK could ever manage to take a stand.

 

There's no history of the UK and it's thick working class doing this is there.

I mean according to some on here only the EU has delivered.

 

?

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Well done the SNP. Walking out of that undemocratic pit of a place. 

 

By walking out - rather than waiting 20 minutes - they lost the chance to have the debate they wanted.

 

Good on them for making the issue front and centre. Bit of a dereliction of duty to walk out.

 

Scotland over Brexit has been poorly served by all it's politicians. Be they of all or any party. A mixture of paucity of thought, inability to agree and grandstanding. No one comes out well.

[Cade]

The Scotland powers part of the Brexit bill was supposed to have proper time scheduled to it.

The Govt decided to tack it on to the end of the marathon day yesterday. (which is itself a huge topic for discussion, as the most important thing the nation has ever done was rushed through the Commons in a single day by a corrupt Govt)

By the time it came around to it, there was only 15 minutes left to have questions, a debate and a vote on any matters raised re Scotland. 

All of that time was the filibustered by the Scottish Secretary so nothing could be done.

SNP used the most high profile part of today to make a point.

 

Brexit is turning into a right wing coup and the devolution settlement is at risk.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

The Scotland powers part of the Brexit bill was supposed to have proper time scheduled to it.

The Govt decided to tack it on to the end of the marathon day yesterday. (which is itself a huge topic for discussion, as the most important thing the nation has ever done was rushed through the Commons in a single day by a corrupt Govt)

By the time it came around to it, there was only 15 minutes left to have questions, a debate and a vote on any matters raised re Scotland. 

All of that time was the filibustered by the Scottish Secretary so nothing could be done.

SNP used the most high profile part of today to make a point.

 

Brexit is turning into a right wing coup and the devolution settlement is at risk.

 

I bloody hope so. Scrap the Holyrood farce. Waste of money and horribly divisive.

 

Achieved nothing for Scotland.

[Victorian]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

The Scotland powers part of the Brexit bill was supposed to have proper time scheduled to it.

The Govt decided to tack it on to the end of the marathon day yesterday. (which is itself a huge topic for discussion, as the most important thing the nation has ever done was rushed through the Commons in a single day by a corrupt Govt)

By the time it came around to it, there was only 15 minutes left to have questions, a debate and a vote on any matters raised re Scotland. 

All of that time was the filibustered by the Scottish Secretary so nothing could be done.

SNP used the most high profile part of today to make a point.

 

Brexit is turning into a right wing coup and the devolution settlement is at risk.

 

This is the truth of the matter.     The rushed timetable was wholly conceived by the government and there was absolutely no reason for it.

 

The SNP had to bring publicity to the fact that the government AND worse,  the Speaker,  are guilty of bringing disrepute on UK/Scottish political process.     The government's contempt for political process should not surprise anyone of course.    This is the government that jeopardised the Good Friday Agreement and associated peace and security of Ireland by desperately grasping for the aid of the DUP to allow the PM to keep her job and their MPs to stay on the Westminster gravy train.

 

Self interest and internal squabbles first at every juncture.     Everything else forced to stand aside,  pipe down and GTF.