Hard Brexit

[jake]

4 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Your understanding is complete nonsense. The term is used for Britons living outside their native country both temporarily and permanently. I have never heard British pensioners living in Spain referred to as 'immigrants'. Never. 

 

Of course, the kinds of people who leave one developed country for either another, or a less developed one, are usually (but not solely) either skilled workers or pensioners. So 'expatriate' isn't just a loaded term when it comes to race, but also income and wealth. Anglocentrism gets everywhere. Us expatriates are better than those immigrants. Apparently.  

This is the type of shite that has turned the left into the mess and joke it is.

 

I can't be bothered to search for the links but Spanish and Portuguese certainly view the British as rich immigrants.

Who with their freedom of movement push up property prices and even rental costs to the disadvantage of working class.

Plus your ignorance of those two countries colonialism.

 

But hey go call on uly for a mutual left wing reach around.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

This is the type of shite that has turned the left into the mess and joke it is.

 

I can't be bothered to search for the links but Spanish and Portuguese certainly view the British as rich immigrants.

Who with their freedom of movement push up property prices and even rental costs to the disadvantage of working class.

Plus your ignorance of those two countries colonialism.

 

But hey go call on uly for a mutual left wing reach around.

 

 

 

Strange how Spain don't want to leave the European Union then. In fact, no-one else does. 

 

But I'm sure you know better than the Spanish people themselves about what's best for them  

 

PS. I'm well aware of Spain and Portugal's histories of colonialism. And France, Holland, Belgium... 

 

PPS. You think Ulysses is "left wing"?  This is the type of shite that has turned both the right and British political discourse into the joke that it is.  

[Ulysses]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

PPS. You think Ulysses is "left wing"?  This is the type of shite that has turned both the right and British political discourse into the joke that it is.  

 

 

jake doesn't care whether I'm left or right wing.

 

jake just obsesses a bit more than he should.  You understand what I'm saying? 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I think Ireland has had its fair share of complete ****ing arsewits in high office. Even if Ireland doesn't qualify as one of the world's greatest  countries which like Scotland I think it does. Size isn't everything.

 

FA, can you not get the point instead of knee-jerk whataboutery, eh?  Ireland is a penny ante tuppenny ha'penny wee country about which no-one has given much of a shite up to now and will, for the most part, continue not to.  The UK used to be a world leader, now it's second rate and disappearing its own arse while singing the theme from Dad's Army, and a numbnuts like Rees-Withoutaspoon doesn't improve matters. His comments in that video were embarrassingly poor, and wouldn't pass muster in a political debate among youngsters in their early teens.

 

The boy's a loon.  It reminds me of a story about Charlie Haughey when, in response to something daft and politically unhelpful said by the then NI Secretary Tom King, he is supposed to have given an "official" reply and then said "I sometimes wonder if there is intelligent life on Tom King."

[shaun.lawson]

20 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

FA, can you not get the point instead of knee-jerk whataboutery, eh?  Ireland is a penny ante tuppenny ha'penny wee country about which no-one has given much of a shite up to now and will, for the most part, continue not to.  The UK used to be a world leader, now it's second rate and disappearing its own arse while singing the theme from Dad's Army, and a numbnuts like Rees-Withoutaspoon doesn't improve matters. His comments in that video were embarrassingly poor, and wouldn't pass muster in a political debate among youngsters in their early teens.

 

Don't you find it instructive how few posters on here realise what's happening to UK politics - and that what's going on is not normal in any way?

 

Frogs in boiling water spring to mind.

[michael_bolton]

I don't really understand the fit of rage that some people seem to get into when the issue of a second referendum comes up.

 

Leave won the referendum, but they won it with no clear indication of what their victory meant. Nearly two years on there is still no clarity on what leaving the EU means. I don't see why anybody, of any political persuasion, would now object to the final settlement being put to a referendum.

 

It's kind of like Hearts having a board meeting where the board agree to give the manager permission to go and buy Gary Mackay-Steven, but agree nothing on a transfer fee or wage restrictions. The board would then be quite upset if the manager spent £20m on him and gave him a ten-year contract on £100k a week. Saying "You agreed we could buy him" would not cut it.

 

In the same way, British people have not made a clear choice with full knowledge of the settlement when it comes to what leaving the EU will mean for travel, for business, for education, for the economy. We don't even have a vague idea of what will happen on these issues. That's not democracy.

 

I am broadly pro-remain but can see why people have a problem with the EU. But I cannot see why even the staunchest Leave supporter would want us to leave without any public consultation on the final settlement. It seems a very strange type of democracy. Basically voting for a blank canvass for politicians to go and fill in with no further consultation.

 

I was also a supporter of Yes in the Scottish referendum. However, in the result of a Yes victory, I would fully have expected the final independence settlement to have been put to the people before being rubber-stamped. I don't see why anybody would not want the electorate to have a final say over whether this is what they actually wanted or not.

Edited May 14, 2018 by michael_bolton

[jake]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

jake doesn't care whether I'm left or right wing.

 

jake just obsesses a bit more than he should.  You understand what I'm saying? 

??

[SE16 3LN]

On 11/05/2018 at 16:38, shaun.lawson said:

 

To clarify:

 

1. I don't like racist governments

 

2. I don't like racist people 

 

You seem to have just normalised both. The above post reads like "we're all racist... who cares?"

 

Who, exactly, is offering "more Europe as a solution"? Is there any actual prospect of "more Europe"? No. Though there's also no prospect of any other EU state leaving. They've taken one look at the farce we've made of it and thought "nah, you're alright thanks". 

 

PS. What's the problem with it taking Germany a while to form a government? It's called democracy. In Britain, when we had a hung Parliament, the right wing press demanded we form a government in about 5 minutes: not because of the people, but because of the interests of said right wing press' owners.

This is all bollocks Shaun and you know it. I haven't "normalised" racism, I've pointed out that that is not the main motivation for leaving the EU and that the racist vote is far more marked in EU member states who are not, at present, leaving the EU.

 

The president of the EU has called for bigger Europe in spite of the problems that this is causing for member states. You must have missed that.

 

It took months for Germany to form a govt. because Merkel's big Europe, open border policy was rejected by a huge section of the German electorate. It's proof that all is not right with your "big Europe good, UK bad" vision.

 

Finally, you don't like racist governments or Racist people but you're living in South America? Really

 

I'm disappointed with you Shaun. You're challenged on you're anti UK stance on all things Brexit and you start shouting Racist. Cheap and childish mate, cheap and childish

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

On 09/05/2018 at 14:31, jake said:

Can you explain ?

Pretty much as shaun said. 

[shaun.lawson]

2 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

This is all bollocks Shaun and you know it. I haven't "normalised" racism, I've pointed out that that is not the main motivation for leaving the EU and that the racist vote is far more marked in EU member states who are not, at present, leaving the EU.

 

The president of the EU has called for bigger Europe in spite of the problems that this is causing for member states. You must have missed that.

 

It took months for Germany to form a govt. because Merkel's big Europe, open border policy was rejected by a huge section of the German electorate. It's proof that all is not right with your "big Europe good, UK bad" vision.

 

Finally, you don't like racist governments or Racist people but you're living in South America? Really

 

I'm disappointed with you Shaun. You're challenged on you're anti UK stance on all things Brexit and you start shouting Racist. Cheap and childish mate, cheap and childish

 

1. It took months for Germany to form a government because Germany has a grown-up proportional system. The AfD actually did pretty bloody badly in the election overall. 

 

2. The President of the EU has no power and is a total irrelevance. 

 

3. Racism was a very large motivator for leaving the EU for many. It's not the only one at all; there are many different factors involved. I outlined a good number of them in my response to Ulysses about Rees-Mogg above: it goes back several decades. 

 

4. Yes, I live in South America. Specifically, in one of the most liberal, tolerant countries on the planet. A country which wants immigration and doesn't treat those coming here as criminals, but as humans. Politically, I don't think there's a government in the world closer to my own views than the Uruguayan one. 

 

Uruguay, which has had a leftist government since 2004, has the lowest rates of poverty, inequality and corruption in Latin America; has had constant economic growth for 15 years; has legalised abortion and gay marriage; regulates cannabis; and is well ahead of the UK on press freedom.

 

Freedom House rank Uruguay the joint sixth freest country in the world; the UK is joint 20th. The Economist Intelligence Unit gives Uruguay a perfect 10 out of 10 for electoral process and pluralism, one of only 8 countries in the world with that score; the UK is not among them. It also ranks miles above the UK for functioning of government (joint 9th; the UK is joint 26th); and civil liberties (joint 5th; the UK is joint 14th). And all with a leftist government.

 

Surely, in complaining about my focusing on racist attitudes in Britain and Europe, you haven't just displayed them yourself regarding South America... have you? 

[SE16 3LN]

36 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

1. It took months for Germany to form a government because Germany has a grown-up proportional system. The AfD actually did pretty bloody badly in the election overall. 

 

2. The President of the EU has no power and is a total irrelevance. 

 

3. Racism was a very large motivator for leaving the EU for many. It's not the only one at all; there are many different factors involved. I outlined a good number of them in my response to Ulysses about Rees-Mogg above: it goes back several decades. 

 

4. Yes, I live in South America. Specifically, in one of the most liberal, tolerant countries on the planet. A country which wants immigration and doesn't treat those coming here as criminals, but as humans. Politically, I don't think there's a government in the world closer to my own views than the Uruguayan one. 

 

Uruguay, which has had a leftist government since 2004, has the lowest rates of poverty, inequality and corruption in Latin America; has had constant economic growth for 15 years; has legalised abortion and gay marriage; regulates cannabis; and is well ahead of the UK on press freedom.

 

Freedom House rank Uruguay the joint sixth freest country in the world; the UK is joint 20th. The Economist Intelligence Unit gives Uruguay a perfect 10 out of 10 for electoral process and pluralism, one of only 8 countries in the world with that score; the UK is not among them. It also ranks miles above the UK for functioning of government (joint 9th; the UK is joint 26th); and civil liberties (joint 5th; the UK is joint 14th). And all with a leftist government.

 

Surely, in complaining about my focusing on racist attitudes in Britain and Europe, you haven't just displayed them yourself regarding South America... have you? 

 

 

Thanks for the condescending lecture. I tend to take my views on Racism from people who actually experience it, not privileged little white boys.

 

 

 

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

12 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

 

 

Thanks for the condescending lecture. I tend to take my views on Racism from people who actually experience it, not privileged little white boys.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I take my views on racism and xenophobia from:

 

1. People who express it

 

2. People who experience it. 

 

Incidentally, I'm curious. Exactly what was the methodology behind your statements regarding South America and "the racist views of the majority of the Italian population"? 

[JamboX2]

On 13/05/2018 at 00:53, Ulysses said:

 

Enjoy might be the wrong word, however amused I am.

 

The United Kingdom used to be one of the world's great countries, and could have taught most of the world lessons in common sense and pragmatism.  What, in the name of suffering Jaysus, has happened to you that has enabled that complete ****ing arsewit to be one of the highest office holders in the country? 

 

The Daily Mail, Paul Dacre, the Gillian Duffy Incident, Austerity, Lynton Crosby, Blair's Romania/Bulgaria error, Cameron/Osbourne plotting and a growth in "vox pop" programming.

 

In effect politicians became chasers of public affection rather than shapers of public opinion. Our press - especially on the right - lead itself into the gutter. Legitimate grievances were warped against the wrong culprits. 

 

Take for example Lords reform. Opposed by Mogg, Jenkins, Dorries, Davis, Fox, Gove etc as a form of constitutional gerrymandering. They won that fight. Now they are howling about it slapping down the absurdities of the Brexit Bill and the cack-handedness of the Commons. There in lies the problems - short sightedness and a clutching to a vision of "old" Britain. 

[SE16 3LN]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And I take my views on racism and xenophobia from:

 

1. People who express it

 

2. People who experience it. 

 

Incidentally, I'm curious. Exactly what was the methodology behind your statements regarding South America and "the racist views of the majority of the Italian population"? 

The well documented experiences of Black South Americans who report that racism is just a way of life. Legislation is all very well Shaun, but claiming immigrants are welcome in Uruguay when over 90% of the population is European in origin says it all really.  In Italy 51% of those who voted, voted for anti immigrant Euro Sceptic parties. 

[jake]

2 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

The well documented experiences of Black South Americans who report that racism is just a way of life. Legislation is all very well Shaun, but claiming immigrants are welcome in Uruguay when over 90% of the population is European in origin says it all really.  In Italy 51% of those who voted, voted for anti immigrant Euro Sceptic parties. 

https://www.theworldweekly.com/reader/view/3764/racist-latin-america

[shaun.lawson]

3 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

The well documented experiences of Black South Americans who report that racism is just a way of life. Legislation is all very well Shaun, but claiming immigrants are welcome in Uruguay when over 90% of the population is European in origin says it all really.  In Italy 51% of those who voted, voted for anti immigrant Euro Sceptic parties. 

 

Immigrants are absolutely welcome here. It's not Uruguay's fault if they don't come. And yes, this country has a major homogeneity problem: a consequence, considerably, of it being so little known around the world. 

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Immigrants are absolutely welcome here. It's not Uruguay's fault if they don't come. And yes, this country has a major homogeneity problem: a consequence, considerably, of it being so little known around the world. 

Why is homogeneity in itself a problem? If Uruguay would wecome immigrants why is it a problem if migrants choose not to move there?

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

Why is homogeneity in itself a problem? If Uruguay would wecome immigrants why is it a problem if migrants choose not to move there?

 

Because diversity isn't only good for its own sake. Diversity brings new ideas, new ways of doing things. The melting pot is good for everyone IMO. Too much homogeneity breeds conservative, staid attitudes.

 

If migrants choose not to come here, that's entirely their call. It's a problem for Uruguay because it has a small, ageing population. Europe has an ageing population too of course: meaning its increasingly anti-immigration stance is economically illiterate, and will cause more problems than it solves.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Because diversity isn't only good for its own sake. Diversity brings new ideas, new ways of doing things. The melting pot is good for everyone IMO. Too much homogeneity breeds conservative, staid attitudes.

 

If migrants choose not to come here, that's entirely their call. It's a problem for Uruguay because it has a small, ageing population. Europe has an ageing population too of course: meaning its increasingly anti-immigration stance is economically illiterate, and will cause more problems than it solves.

Homogeneity in your view breeds conservative staid attitudes but you have just painted Uruguay as a socialist paradise?

I agree diversity is good but not all diversity is good. Surveys have found that there is a large almost unanimous majority  tolerant of homosexuality in the UK . But surprisingly that is not the case in London which more than anywhere prides itself on diversity and tolerance. Unfortunately the large muslim population means that London scores relatively badly on this measure of tolerance. So yes I suppose London is more diverse in that it has more homophobics than most places.

[shaun.lawson]

9 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Homogeneity in your view breeds conservative staid attitudes but you have just painted Uruguay as a socialist paradise?

I agree diversity is good but not all diversity is good. Surveys have found that there is a large almost unanimous majority  tolerant of homosexuality in the UK . But surprisingly that is not the case in London which more than anywhere prides itself on diversity and tolerance. Unfortunately the large muslim population means that London scores relatively badly on this measure of tolerance. So yes I suppose London is more diverse in that it has more homophobics than most places.

 

That's interesting and indeed surprising. And I agree that not all diversity is good; it does need to be managed, certainly.

 

On Uruguay: this place is a mountain of contradictions. The Estadio Charrua (commemorating the indigenous peoples, who were all killed when Uruguay became independent about 200 years ago), is situated in the middle of... the Parque Rivera, named after the general most responsible for those atrocities.

 

With such an ageing population, it's remarkable that Uruguay has embraced social democracy to such an extent. But once the left got into power, via the 2002 economic crash which has essentially defined politics here ever since, the fear of change of so many here is what's kept them in place, I'd say. 

 

Incidentally, a theory. Maybe social democracy only works when a population is homogenous? See Scandinavia. See also the more traditionally individualist melting pots of the US and UK. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[Victorian]

Still making an absolute ***** of it and have made zero progress on anything for many weeks.

 

It's no wonder.     May is being held to ransom by both extremes of the Tory Party.     Both sides,   hard Brexit and remainers,   believe they can force their agenda to the fore on a ticket of threatening the PM with being forced to relinquish her job title and residence in Downing Street.     Her lifestyle as a kiddy on Prime Minister.     As a result,    absolutely **** all can be agreed and moved forward.     A complete stalemate between wealthy,  removed from the consequences,  removed from reality cretins and vultures.      

[shaun.lawson]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-summit-why-join-eu-balkans-serbia-albania-berlin-process-a8347111.html

 

[JamboX2]

7 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-summit-why-join-eu-balkans-serbia-albania-berlin-process-a8347111.html

 

 

As absurdities go that is impressive.

[SE16 3LN]

13 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Immigrants are absolutely welcome here. It's not Uruguay's fault if they don't come. And yes, this country has a major homogeneity problem: a consequence, considerably, of it being so little known around the world. 

In bold is the line I usually get from the hard right anti immigration movement in Eastern Europe. and what about Italy then, and the rest of Europe for that matter...are they demonstrating a huge appetite for big Europe or are they voting Euro sceptic and anti immigration? You need to keep up with the political shift in Europe Shaun, or your arguments will all go down like this one. The UK is not the big bad racist ogre spreading hate across the free world. There have been some regressive moves under a govt. promoting austerity and trying to appease the far right within its own ranks, but the brexit vote was not an indication of racist Britain. 

[SE16 3LN]

13 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Homogeneity in your view breeds conservative staid attitudes but you have just painted Uruguay as a socialist paradise?

I agree diversity is good but not all diversity is good. Surveys have found that there is a large almost unanimous majority  tolerant of homosexuality in the UK . But surprisingly that is not the case in London which more than anywhere prides itself on diversity and tolerance. Unfortunately the large muslim population means that London scores relatively badly on this measure of tolerance. So yes I suppose London is more diverse in that it has more homophobics than most places.

Eh, where do you get this information from. I agree that there have been some homophobic and indeed misogynist outpourings from certain religious fanatics, but its isolated and does't translate into people's every day lives.

[SE16 3LN]

12 hours ago, Victorian said:

Still making an absolute ***** of it and have made zero progress on anything for many weeks.

 

It's no wonder.     May is being held to ransom by both extremes of the Tory Party.     Both sides,   hard Brexit and remainers,   believe they can force their agenda to the fore on a ticket of threatening the PM with being forced to relinquish her job title and residence in Downing Street.     Her lifestyle as a kiddy on Prime Minister.     As a result,    absolutely **** all can be agreed and moved forward.     A complete stalemate between wealthy,  removed from the consequences,  removed from reality cretins and vultures.      

What's your solution then Vic? I hear you moaning a lot but I don't see your answers to the complexities of Brexit Britain.

[Victorian]

49 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

What's your solution then Vic? I hear you moaning a lot but I don't see your answers to the complexities of Brexit Britain.

 

Well a good start would be the governing executive getting their act together to agree a coherent position on every part of Brexit and then setting about negotiating a stage by stage agreement with the other side.     What we have is a number of factions all pulling in different directions and getting absolutely nowhere.      Gross incompetence and negligence.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Eh, where do you get this information from. I agree that there have been some homophobic and indeed misogynist outpourings from certain religious fanatics, but its isolated and does't translate into people's every day lives.

Sorry can't remember source but was fairly recent. On the face of it a surprise but less so when you think about it  ... that areas with a large number of adherents to the faith with the strongest anti-homosexual views are likely to be more homophobic than areas without such large numbers. My point was just that diversity is not in itself always an unalloyed good. For the avoidance of doubt this doesn't mean I am Islamophobic.  A great growth in some forms of Christianity might also in a sense  diversify the culture but  have a similar effect on the statistics.

 

[SE16 3LN]

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Well a good start would be the governing executive getting their act together to agree a coherent position on every part of Brexit and then setting about negotiating a stage by stage agreement with the other side.     What we have is a number of factions all pulling in different directions and getting absolutely nowhere.      Gross incompetence and negligence.

I think the problem is the bits you stated and not Gross incompetence and negligence (apart from holding the referendum in the first place that is). 

[Victorian]

9 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I think the problem is the bits you stated and not Gross incompetence and negligence (apart from holding the referendum in the first place that is). 

 

Incompetence on the part of the PM.    She's weak and virtually powerless to settle the squabbles within the Tory party regarding how Brexit is conducted.    Both extremes of the party are relatively happy for her to remain in post because they have a free reign to further their own agendas.    Both reluctant for leadership change in case the new leader hails from the opposite camp.

 

Negligence on the part of the entire party.     It's all a political,  philosophical game on their part.     The actual economical and social consequences do not appear to be much of a consideration.     Conducting the Tory Party's idea of a soft/hard/good/bad Brexit,    if an idea ever manages to surface,   isn't going to have much of an impact on the real world fortunes of the average Tory MP.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

It's good Britain and Turkey are cooperating. 

 

With Turkey having zero chance of joining EU just now a trade agreement would allow more Turks to come to work in UK. 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661387/Migrant-crisis-Nigel-Farage-Turkey-EU-visa-free-travel/amp

[shaun.lawson]

10 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

In bold is the line I usually get from the hard right anti immigration movement in Eastern Europe. and what about Italy then, and the rest of Europe for that matter...are they demonstrating a huge appetite for big Europe or are they voting Euro sceptic and anti immigration? You need to keep up with the political shift in Europe Shaun, or your arguments will all go down like this one. The UK is not the big bad racist ogre spreading hate across the free world. There have been some regressive moves under a govt. promoting austerity and trying to appease the far right within its own ranks, but the brexit vote was not an indication of racist Britain. 

 

I'm well aware of the changes across Europe. I'm horrified by them. Again: your argument seems to be "we're all racist. Who cares?" That Britain's heading in this direction is appalling; that Europe's heading in this direction is also appalling. Albeit (1) the rest of Europe doesn't want to leave the EU; (2) Very few European countries have a government as incompetent and living in a fantasy world as the UK does.

 

Uruguay? Immigrants are very welcome. It needs them. But as a small country sandwiched between two giants, which would be utterly anonymous if it wasn't for football, it's rarely the first port of call of migrants. There aren't even direct flights to here from most European countries. 

[shaun.lawson]

5 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

I think the problem is the bits you stated and not Gross incompetence and negligence (apart from holding the referendum in the first place that is). 

 

There's so much gross incompetence and negligence, that in the event of no deal, private prosecutions should be brought for malfeasance in public office. I'm absolutely serious in that.

[The Mighty Thor]

On 5/13/2018 at 00:53, Ulysses said:

 

Enjoy might be the wrong word, however amused I am.

 

The United Kingdom used to be one of the world's great countries, and could have taught most of the world lessons in common sense and pragmatism.  What, in the name of suffering Jaysus, has happened to you that has enabled that complete ****ing arsewit to be one of the highest office holders in the country? 

It's not to be understated just how big a part of the fundamental problem this is.

The UK has been on a trajectory to irrelevance for the best part of 70 years. 

The notion that the UK is a global player in political or fiscal terms drives on the mentality of taking back our borders and becoming a trading powerhouse.

The reality is starkly different and the UK is not the global influencer that the majority of the clowns driving us into isolation think it is. 

Like the empire before it the constituent parts of two countries a province and a principality will fragment in the near future. 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

It's good Britain and Turkey are cooperating. 

 

With Turkey having zero chance of joining EU just now a trade agreement would allow more Turks to come to work in UK. 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661387/Migrant-crisis-Nigel-Farage-Turkey-EU-visa-free-travel/amp

 

 

Feck me, your government really is losing it. 

 

 

The Independent: Post-Brexit, the UK will need Turkey for trade – and Erdogan is using that to his advantage

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

It's not to be understated just how big a part of the fundamental problem this is.

The UK has been on a trajectory to irrelevance for the best part of 70 years. 

The notion that the UK is a global player in political or fiscal terms drives on the mentality of taking back our borders and becoming a trading powerhouse.

The reality is starkly different and the UK is not the global influencer that the majority of the clowns driving us into isolation think it is. 

Like the empire before it the constituent parts of two countries a province and a principality will fragment in the near future. 

As a global power the uk  has been defunct since 1956 and indeed1945. I doubt many brexiteers would dispute that. The future of the constituents of the uk is a separate matter. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

8 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Incompetence on the part of the PM.    She's weak and virtually powerless to settle the squabbles within the Tory party regarding how Brexit is conducted.    Both extremes of the party are relatively happy for her to remain in post because they have a free reign to further their own agendas.    Both reluctant for leadership change in case the new leader hails from the opposite camp.

 

Negligence on the part of the entire party.     It's all a political,  philosophical game on their part.     The actual economical and social consequences do not appear to be much of a consideration.     Conducting the Tory Party's idea of a soft/hard/good/bad Brexit,    if an idea ever manages to surface,   isn't going to have much of an impact on the real world fortunes of the average Tory MP.

 

 

Harsh on May. She was the recipient of the ultimate hospital pass from Cameron. Like both major parties in the General Election she campaigned on respecting the vote to leave and won. Many of her MPs and most of her unelected Tory  Lords have since opposed her with no democratic mandate,

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Harsh on May. She was the recipient of the ultimate hospital pass from Cameron. Like both major parties in the General Election she campaigned on respecting the vote to leave and won. Many of her MPs and most of her unelected Tory  Lords have opposed her.

 

 

She applied for the job along with Gove and Leadstrom. 

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

She applied for the job along with Gove and Leadstrom. 

So?

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

So?

 

Save the crocodile tears, her, her husband and all her work pals are multi multi millionaires. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Feck me, your government really is losing it. 

 

 

The Independent: Post-Brexit, the UK will need Turkey for trade – and Erdogan is using that to his advantage

 

 

 

The idea that the UK will "need" Turkey for trade is ludicrous.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Save the crocodile tears, her, her husband and all her work pals are multi multi millionaires. 

What "crocodile tears"?

 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

What "crocodile tears"?

 

 

“Hospital pass”

 

She didn’t have to take the job but as with every ex PM, it opens more lucrative doors, during and when they leave office. That’s why they were all fighting over it, Liam Fox too I believe, him that’s already been sacked years ago from cabinet. 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

“Hospital pass”

 

She didn’t have to take the job but as with every ex PM, it opens more lucrative doors, during and when they leave office. That’s why they were all fighting over it, Liam Fox too I believe, him that’s already been sacked years ago from cabinet. 

You don't have to take a hospital pass. But as a team member your are sort of obliged to try. But maybe she should have just left it to Gove or Mogg.

[Space Mackerel]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You don't have to take a hospital pass. But as a team member your are sort of obliged to try. But maybe she should have just left it to Gove or Mogg.

 

I’m not so sure this fitba analogy works that well along side with gaining ultimate power of the Divided Kingdom. 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

On ‎14‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 01:50, Ulysses said:

 

FA, can you not get the point instead of knee-jerk whataboutery, eh?  Ireland is a penny ante tuppenny ha'penny wee country about which no-one has given much of a shite up to now and will, for the most part, continue not to.  The UK used to be a world leader, now it's second rate and disappearing its own arse while singing the theme from Dad's Army, and a numbnuts like Rees-Withoutaspoon doesn't improve matters. His comments in that video were embarrassingly poor, and wouldn't pass muster in a political debate among youngsters in their early teens.

 

The boy's a loon.  It reminds me of a story about Charlie Haughey when, in response to something daft and politically unhelpful said by the then NI Secretary Tom King, he is supposed to have given an "official" reply and then said "I sometimes wonder if there is intelligent life on Tom King."

Yet the "penny ante tuppeny ha'penny wee country " is apparently the major obstacle to a settlement of  a solution tothe UK leaving the EU? Because in part some residents of the "penny ante tuppeny ha'penny wee country" might try to destroy cameras on the Republic /NI border?

[Francis Albert]

The divided kingdom? You mean the one that in Scotland's case voted by a larger majority than the UK vote to leave the EU voted to remain part of the UK?

(Reply to Space Mac a couple of posts ago)

Edited May 15, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

52 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Yet the "penny ante tuppeny ha'penny wee country " is apparently the major obstacle to a settlement of  a solution tothe UK leaving the EU? Because in part some residents of the "penny ante tuppeny ha'penny wee country" might try to destroy cameras on the Republic /NI border?

 

FA, it doesn't work.  You do this "hey, folks, I'm gonna be the contrarian in the corner" so much, that even you don't believe it.

 

Your Government is sinking into the mire, and dragging your Parliament with it.  Your national strategy seems to be to (i) try to give the middle finger to your nearest neighbours with whom you have the closest trading and political connections, (ii) hope to forge some kind of links with people further away who can't stand you, who have weaker economies, and who will rip you off at every opportunity, and then (iii) pray that either a bunch of hooray henrys or a throwback to yon Citizen Smith telly show will somehow find a way to wave a magic wand and turn your sow's ear into a silk purse.

 

When that is pointed out, in all its mind-boggingly ****witted glory, all you can do is point randomly at some point on the horizon and yell "LOOK!  OVER THERE!  WHAT ABOUT THAT?!?" at the top of your lungs.

 

It's horseshite masquerading as government, and it is sticking your fingers in your ears and making humming noises masquerading as political argument.

 

Did you vote to have Erdogan rather than Merkel?  Did you vote to bring in the Turks and keep out the Poles?  No you didn't, but that's what you're getting.  Good luck to you with that.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Ulysses
Multiple fingers need multiple ears.......

[Gorgiewave]

33 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

FA, it doesn't work.  You do this "hey, folks, I'm gonna be the contrarian in the corner" so much, that even you don't believe it.

 

Your Government is sinking into the mire, and dragging your Parliament with it.  Your national strategy seems to be to (i) try to give the middle finger to your nearest neighbours with whom you have the closest trading and political connections, (ii) hope to forge some kind of links with people further away who can't stand you, who have weaker economies, and who will rip you off at every opportunity, and then (iii) pray that either a bunch of hooray henrys or a throwback to yon Citizen Smith telly show will somehow find a way to wave a magic wand and turn your sow's ear into a silk purse.

 

When that is pointed out, in all its mind-boggingly ****witted glory, all you can do is point randomly at some point on the horizon and yell "LOOK!  OVER THERE!  WHAT ABOUT THAT?!?" at the top of your lungs.

 

It's horseshite masquerading as government, and it is sticking your fingers in your ears and making humming noises masquerading as political argument.

 

Did you vote to have Erdogan rather than Merkel?  Did you vote to bring in the Turks and keep out the Poles?  No you didn't, but that's what you're getting.  Good luck to you with that.

 

 

 

The Irish strategy since 1922.

[Ulysses]

19 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

LOOK!  OVER THERE!  WHAT ABOUT THAT?!?

 

 

 

Fixed that for you.