jake Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Boris said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086 This will end well... Suspending Catalonia's autonomy isn't the wisest of moves from the Spanish Govt. imo. Way to radicalise moderates. Ive not heard much from the EU on this. Nationalism is very much on the rise although the Catalan version is not the same as Austrias recent turn. People are i think fed up with remote governance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Boris said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086 This will end well... Suspending Catalonia's autonomy isn't the wisest of moves from the Spanish Govt. imo. Way to radicalise moderates. Aye, tackling the problem just makes it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 11 hours ago, redjambo said: I hadn't heard that one before - it brought a smile to my face. Not, of course, the first time I've smiled when reading one of your posts, but for a different reason than usual this time. Vaduz was my attempt at turning it around. Maybe we should stick to Where is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Aye, tackling the problem just makes it worse. Because imposing rule on people used to self governing is always the best option... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Boris said: Because imposing rule on people used to self governing is always the best option... It's not a general, or permanent, suspension of autonomy. Police and education are in danger of being centralised until the government can trust the Catalan government to act within the law. It may also call elections, once, or until the Generalitat is consistingly acting within the law. The Catalan government has been given several warnings and extensions and, naturally, they want autonomy to be suspended so they can play the victim? Is there any bullshit nationalism that isn't based on playing the victim? Ireland, Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Country, Wales. All shite. I don't know about Corsica. Kurdistan and Kosovo are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 47 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Vaduz was my attempt at turning it around. Maybe we should stick to Where is this? Not at all. Despite disagreeing with you a lot of the time, I like seeing you post your opinions here. If we were all to have the same opinions, life would get mighty boring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Boris said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086 This will end well... Suspending Catalonia's autonomy isn't the wisest of moves from the Spanish Govt. imo. Way to radicalise moderates. They said that were going to do it, so now they are almost forced along that path. You can't bluster in a high-stakes game of poker. I think that the imprisonment of the two Jordis is equally going to radicalise moderates though. Almost every successful independence movement has had martyrs (and I don't mean folk necessarily being killed - imprisonment or being duffed up by federal police will also do the trick). Spain has to avoid creating such martyrs at all costs or the movement might become too big for them to handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 40 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said: Ireland? You're a moron. B(h)eggars belief! 50 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: It's not a general, or permanent, suspension of autonomy. Police and education are in danger of being centralised until the government can trust the Catalan government to act within the law. It may also call elections, once, or until the Generalitat is consistingly acting within the law. The Catalan government has been given several warnings and extensions and, naturally, they want autonomy to be suspended so they can play the victim? Is there any bullshit nationalism that isn't based on playing the victim? Ireland, Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Country, Wales. All shite. I don't know about Corsica. Kurdistan and Kosovo are different. Does a law make it right? Apartheid was enshrined in law, so any attempt to overthrow that would be illegal. Your logic, if applied there, suggests that the status quo must continue... If, as you have suggested previously I think, the majority of catalonian's population do not want independnece, why not hold a referendum and call their bluff? Why so scared of a democratic vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said: Ireland? You're a moron. 100 years ago, yes. 30 years ago, in some places, yes. But now? The same with Catalonia. Catalan really was banned under Franco, yet the peak of back-arching separatism is now, among people who have been fed Catalan supremacism at school and have more opportunity to speak Catalan than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Boris said: B(h)eggars belief! Does a law make it right? Apartheid was enshrined in law, so any attempt to overthrow that would be illegal. Your logic, if applied there, suggests that the status quo must continue... If, as you have suggested previously I think, the majority of catalonian's population do not want independnece, why not hold a referendum and call their bluff? Why so scared of a democratic vote? I've never agreed with the Spanish government's approach. What you say would require a constitutional amendment and I'd go for that. As it stands, what the Catalan government are doing is blatantly against the Constitution. The Spanish government is right to defend it, as it stands. The Catalan government passing a law in the middle of the night without debate and then closing the parliament so that they can't be scrutinised doesn't convince anybody of their good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said: 100 years ago, yes. 30 years ago, in some places, yes. But now? The same with Catalonia. Catalan really was banned under Franco, yet the peak of back-arching separatism is now, among people who have been fed Catalan supremacism at school and have more opportunity to speak Catalan than ever. So by being able to explore their cultural background, some have concluded that they should be a nation. Is that so bad? What are you so afraid of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 21 minutes ago, Boris said: B(h)eggars belief! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, Boris said: So by being able to explore their cultural background, some have concluded that they should be a nation. Is that so bad? What are you so afraid of? You suggest that this whole process has been honest and consensual. In fact, it's been abusive. See this. I don't know if you can follow it, but it's a video of a Catalan primary school in which the children, who are too young to know any different, are invited to hate Spain through miserably manipulated textbooks and hateful teachers. And a newspaper article about it: http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/16/59e3ae1a46163f94488b4640.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yabadabadoo1874again Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said: It's not a general, or permanent, suspension of autonomy. Police and education are in danger of being centralised until the government can trust the Catalan government to act within the law. It may also call elections, once, or until the Generalitat is consistingly acting within the law. The Catalan government has been given several warnings and extensions and, naturally, they want autonomy to be suspended so they can play the victim? Is there any bullshit nationalism that isn't based on playing the victim? Ireland, Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Country, Wales. All shite. I don't know about Corsica. Kurdistan and Kosovo are different. Oh dear. Possibly bullshit BritNat stuff or is that the ideal nationalismo...about to make real victims of us all... No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, yabadabadoo1874again said: Oh dear. Possibly bullshit BritNat stuff or is that the ideal nationalismo...about to make real victims of us all... No? As a great Catalan used to say, ¿Qué? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: You suggest that this whole process has been honest and consensual. In fact, it's been abusive. See this. I don't know if you can follow it, but it's a video of a Catalan primary school in which the children, who are too young to know any different, are invited to hate Spain through miserably manipulated textbooks and hateful teachers. And a newspaper article about it: http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/16/59e3ae1a46163f94488b4640.html I'll need to take your word for it regards indoctrination in schools, naturally I am against that. BUt your previous post suggested that they were allowed to speak catalan more freely than before in recent times. It inferred that somehow they should be grateful and shut up? My point was that with a "blossoming" of cultural pride/identity whatever, then calls for independence would not be unheard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yabadabadoo1874again Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 39 minutes ago, Boris said: B(h)eggars belief! Does a law make it right? Apartheid was enshrined in law, so any attempt to overthrow that would be illegal. Your logic, if applied there, suggests that the status quo must continue... If, as you have suggested previously I think, the majority of catalonian's population do not want independnece, why not hold a referendum and call their bluff? Why so scared of a democratic vote? The vote could be got at. And with this action it would now be a Yes vote.. if not got at. Ergo there will be no referendum allowed. Unless Spanish state feel they could get at the vote without being exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yabadabadoo1874again Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: As a great Catalan used to say, ¿Qué? Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, Boris said: I'll need to take your word for it regards indoctrination in schools, naturally I am against that. BUt your previous post suggested that they were allowed to speak catalan more freely than before in recent times. It inferred that somehow they should be grateful and shut up? My point was that with a "blossoming" of cultural pride/identity whatever, then calls for independence would not be unheard of. The children (look at the size of them...) are told to recite that "Catalans are rebelling against Spain. As King, I have to put this rebellion down. All those who defend it will die." At about 0.42, they then get up and the music of the Franco-era newsreels is played. Then another child says "Close all the gates. I have the gunpowder ready. We're going to destroy this Spanish army." And they all chant "Yes!!!!" to that. They then continue "This must end. We must negotiate with the enemy. Open the doors. Good morning, King Felipe IV [the current King of Spain]. They say they'll open the doors but we've not to kill anybody." The King replies to that, "This can't happen. We'll deceive them. Come out and we'll kill you all. Cambrils [the Catalan town where this school is] will be mine!" Finally, the "Catalans" reply, "Open the doors, we won't kill anybody." This is not any kind of history lesson. It's a fantasy about the current King. The children are being lied to and manipulated by the cretinous teacher, who feeds them their lines and should be jailed for this bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, yabadabadoo1874again said: Indeed. Per this article, Spanish has been spoken in Catalonia since the 14th century. The headline is "Catalans speak Spanish because we want to" https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2017/03/imposicion-del-castellano-se-habla-cataluna-desde-siglo-xv/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Direct rule = recruitment for independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 14 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: The children (look at the size of them...) are told to recite that "Catalans are rebelling against Spain. As King, I have to put this rebellion down. All those who defend it will die." At about 0.42, they then get up and the music of the Franco-era newsreels is played. Then another child says "Close all the gates. I have the gunpowder ready. We're going to destroy this Spanish army." And they all chant "Yes!!!!" to that. They then continue "This must end. We must negotiate with the enemy. Open the doors. Good morning, King Felipe IV [the current King of Spain]. They say they'll open the doors but we've not to kill anybody." The King replies to that, "This can't happen. We'll deceive them. Come out and we'll kill you all. Cambrils [the Catalan town where this school is] will be mine!" Finally, the "Catalans" reply, "Open the doors, we won't kill anybody." This is not any kind of history lesson. It's a fantasy about the current King. The children are being lied to and manipulated by the cretinous teacher, who feeds them their lines and should be jailed for this bullshit. You'll find I wasn't trying to justify that sort of stuff at all. You seem to have ignored the other bit I talked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Boris said: You'll find I wasn't trying to justify that sort of stuff at all. You seem to have ignored the other bit I talked about. This is the basis of the cultural flowering. Lies and manipulation, not some kind of spontaneous celebration. Hatred of the rest of Spain and hatred of the Spanish language. It is now any kind of blossoming, it's propaganda. Have you read up about Catalonia, Boris? Serious question because you don't seem to have. Orwell I assume you have read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Psychedelicropcircle said: Direct rule = recruitment for independence. Say No and their support will shoot up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: This is the basis of the cultural flowering. Lies and manipulation, not some kind of spontaneous celebration. Hatred of the rest of Spain and hatred of the Spanish language. It is now any kind of blossoming, it's propaganda. Have you read up about Catalonia, Boris? Serious question because you don't seem to have. Orwell I assume you have read. I've read Homage to Catalonia, but I do confess to not having read much else. The point I was trying to make that under Franco, as you stated previously, Catalan was banned. So you therefore have a modern population who have used the language as a symbol of defiance and resistance against fascism, and as such a degree of "national" sentiment has grown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Say No and their support will shoot up. Scottish voting intentions for next Westminster general election (YouGov) :SNP 40% (+3)Labour 30% (+3)Conservatives 23% (-6)Liberal Democrats 5% (-2) http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/new-scottish-poll-is-unmitigated.html Does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 4 minutes ago, Boris said: I've read Homage to Catalonia, but I do confess to not having read much else. The point I was trying to make that under Franco, as you stated previously, Catalan was banned. So you therefore have a modern population who have used the language as a symbol of defiance and resistance against fascism, and as such a degree of "national" sentiment has grown. My grandmother lived through the Second World War and retained a dislike of Germany for the rest of her life. I did not live through any of that, so I have no dislike or distrust of Germany. This is logical. People having lived in peace, in which Spanish and Catalan both flourish, yet fiercely preferring one over the other doesn't make obvious sense, unless pressure is artificially applied. See this article for how identity is more fluid when there is less pressure to go in any particular direction: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/you-dont-have-to-be-either-british-or-irish-you-can-be-both-36207550.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Boris said: Scottish voting intentions for next Westminster general election (YouGov) :SNP 40% (+3)Labour 30% (+3)Conservatives 23% (-6)Liberal Democrats 5% (-2) http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/new-scottish-poll-is-unmitigated.html Does it? 40%. Down 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: 40%. Down 5%. Sorry, should have added (This is YouGov's first Scottish voting intention poll since the general election, so percentage changes are measured from the actual election result.) So +3 it is from the election in 2017? Not sure where you get your 5% frrom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Your lot trailing in 3rd though. Bless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, Boris said: Sorry, should have added (This is YouGov's first Scottish voting intention poll since the general election, so percentage changes are measured from the actual election result.) So +3 it is from the election in 2017? Not sure where you get your 5% frrom? From the 45. Scottish Napoleonism never gets past the 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Boris said: Your lot trailing in 3rd though. Bless... I'm pro-Union and pro whoever's pro. Except the BNP and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: From the 45. Scottish Napoleonism never gets past the 45. Hahaha. My word. "Down 5%" Not enough facepalms dear boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: I'm pro-Union and pro whoever's pro. Except the BNP and the like. Not so keen to spout your new found Toryism any more? Shame on you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 17 minutes ago, Boris said: Not so keen to spout your new found Toryism any more? Shame on you! Tory until Labour revisit the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Tory until Labour revisit the world. A man of conviction then! Shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Boris said: A man of conviction then! Shameful. If only nobody ever changed their minds, we'd still all be living in Tanzania, if we were here at all. The Union is my conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 What happens if purity is the policy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 If the eton school boys had denied Scotland & tried to close the Scottish parliament we’d already be independent. As you well know GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Psychedelicropcircle said: If the eton school boys had denied Scotland & tried to close the Scottish parliament we’d already be independent. As you well know GW. Britain is more liberal than Spain and it always has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: If only nobody ever changed their minds, we'd still all be living in Tanzania, if we were here at all. The Union is my conviction. So you won't change your mind on the Union. You'll be Tanzanian then? If at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Boris said: So you won't change your mind on the Union. You'll be Tanzanian then? If at all? I've not yet found a reason to do so, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 17 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: I've not yet found a reason to do so, no. Doesn't that kinda contradict the point you made earlie rthen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 30 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: Britain is more liberal than Spain and it always has been. Nice way of saying you yoons know which way it won’t work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, Boris said: Doesn't that kinda contradict the point you made earlie rthen? One goes where the dialectic leads, no? The Union is the thesis. I've found no convincing antithesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said: One goes where the dialectic leads, no? The Union is the thesis. I've found no convincing antithesis. So your comment regards tanzania is baloney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Boris said: So your comment regards tanzania is baloney? No, it isn't. Refusing to change one's mind is the same as refusing to follow where the dialectic leads. It seems some of our early human ancestors were big Hegelians or knew Socrates was a coming thing or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Boris said: Sorry, should have added (This is YouGov's first Scottish voting intention poll since the general election, so percentage changes are measured from the actual election result.) So +3 it is from the election in 2017? Not sure where you get your 5% frrom? Yet, in an actual poll last week, the Scottish Tories retained the seat with an increased share of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: Yet, in an actual poll last week, the Scottish Tories retained the seat with an increased share of the vote. Yes, I saw that. A council seat. I notice the independent ,who had 20% of the vote at the previous election, either didn't stand or vote imploded. snp vote was up too in that seat. not really a barometer of the country though, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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