Catalonia referendum

[jake]

Some good posts on this.

And Gorgiewave you know your stuff.

But Ulysses is spot on as is cropcircles pic.

Can't get my head round why Madrid have went down this route.

As pointed out they had took the sting out.

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

No, it's only destructive stirrers who are against what the Spanish government has done. Most people in Catalonia and in Spain in general support them.

If what you say is true why won't Spain allow a legal referendum and encourage everyone to vote ?

Please don't give me that tosh about it being illegal. Laws can be changed to allow it and put this dispute to bed.

Spain is stoking up a lot of trouble for the future with their actions imo.

[Gorgiewave]

3 hours ago, luckydug said:

If what you say is true why won't Spain allow a legal referendum and encourage everyone to vote ?

Please don't give me that tosh about it being illegal. Laws can be changed to allow it and put this dispute to bed.

Spain is stoking up a lot of trouble for the future with their actions imo.

 

Because they don't want one. The Constitution doesn't allow secession and the government doesn't want secession. Why would it risk the unity of Spain when it doesn't have to?

 

That's why. You may like it or not, or think it politically prudent or imprudent, but that's the reason.

 

The Scottish referendum may have dissuaded them. The Scottish Government agreed to accept the result, then it lost, then it immediately began agitating for a new vote and independence. It wouldn't accept No for an answer...

 

Maybe that's why the Spanish government doesn't want to go down that road. Because it won't put the dispute to bed.

[Ulysses]

51 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If what you say is true why won't Spain allow a legal referendum and encourage everyone to vote ?

 

According to a poster here who considers himself well-informed, the Catalan separatists have never asked.  The evidence doesn't support that view, but when your stock in trade is fake news that hardly matters.

 

In my view, there are two main problems with a legal referendum, one of which Spain cares about and one of which people generally should care about, but which doesn't really matter to the Spanish.  Firstly, if the Spanish allow a referendum then that means they are declaring themselves open to the break-up of their territory - something they are simply unwilling to do, and not just because of Catalonia.  Secondly, a narrow vote in favour of separation would be regarded as a mandate for separation, even though in the judgement of sensible people it should be no such thing.  Whether the Catalan separatists like it or not, a very large percentage of their own population are not in favour of seceding from Spain.  This is not just about voting for one thing over another; it is about granting consent to be governed.  That is a very serious thing to do, and if a population is to be compelled to change its national identity then that should not be done lightly or easily.

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

According to a poster here who considers himself well-informed, the Catalan separatists have never asked.  The evidence doesn't support that view, but when your stock in trade is fake news that hardly matters.

 

In my view, there are two main problems with a legal referendum, one of which Spain cares about and one of which people generally should care about, but which doesn't really matter to the Spanish.  Firstly, if the Spanish allow a referendum then that means they are declaring themselves open to the break-up of their territory - something they are simply unwilling to do, and not just because of Catalonia.  Secondly, a narrow vote in favour of separation would be regarded as a mandate for separation, even though in the judgement of sensible people it should be no such thing.  Whether the Catalan separatists like it or not, a very large percentage of their own population are not in favour of seceding from Spain.  This is not just about voting for one thing over another; it is about granting consent to be governed.  That is a very serious thing to do, and if a population is to be compelled to change its national identity then that should not be done lightly or easily.

 

I'm glad Mr Varadkar seems to think like this.

[Gorgiewave]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

According to a poster here who considers himself well-informed, the Catalan separatists have never asked.  The evidence doesn't support that view, but when your stock in trade is fake news that hardly matters.

 

In my view, there are two main problems with a legal referendum, one of which Spain cares about and one of which people generally should care about, but which doesn't really matter to the Spanish.  Firstly, if the Spanish allow a referendum then that means they are declaring themselves open to the break-up of their territory - something they are simply unwilling to do, and not just because of Catalonia.  Secondly, a narrow vote in favour of separation would be regarded as a mandate for separation, even though in the judgement of sensible people it should be no such thing.  Whether the Catalan separatists like it or not, a very large percentage of their own population are not in favour of seceding from Spain.  This is not just about voting for one thing over another; it is about granting consent to be governed.  That is a very serious thing to do, and if a population is to be compelled to change its national identity then that should not be done lightly or easily.

 

Some Members will infer that you have me in mind here. If you do, please see this:

 

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20161227/412913538234/constitucion-independentismo-catalunya-reforma-constitucional.html

 

Sabemos que el independentismo dominante no va a ceder a cambio de una reforma constitucional. Dispuesto a la secesión unilateral, aspira a un acuerdo que permita realizar un referéndum vinculante sobre la independencia durante el 2017, pero ese acuerdo es inviable. El referéndum versaría sobre la secesión de una parte del territorio del Reino de España, y eso lo prohíbe el artículo 2 de la Constitución Española (CE) al proclamar enfáticamente el carácter “indisoluble de la unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles”. Por otra parte, aunque ese precepto podría ser modificado, el independentismo no tiene ninguna intención de esperar a que se produzca esa reforma. Sabe que en ningún caso va a aceptarla ni el Partido Popular, ni el PSOE ni Ciudadanos.

 

This passage refers to the fact that the Constitution prohibits secession due to the "indissoluble unity" of the Spanish nation. The sentence in bold continues "On the one hand, although that precept could be reformed, the independence movement has no intention of waiting for that reform to happen. They know that neither the Popular Party, nor the Socialist Party, nor Ciudadanos, is going to accept it in any circumstances."

[Ulysses]

5 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Some Members will infer that you have me in mind here. If you do, please see this:

 

 

The separatists have sought to have an independence referendum on a legal basis. 

 

While Spain is well within its rights to refuse, that is not the same as a claim that the separatists have never asked. 

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

The separatists have sought to have an independence referendum on a legal basis. 

 

While Spain is well within its rights to refuse, that is not the same as a claim that the separatists have never asked. 

 

They would have preferred that, they were told no, so they staged an illegal referendum. Banned by the Constitutional Court, not by the government, incidentally.

[Unknown user]

"They were told no"

 

Yay democracy

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

"They were told no"

 

Yay democracy

 

They could have tried to build support and campaign for the right to hold a vote. They might have found support among many unionists. They might well have found international support. But they didn't, they couldn't contain themselves, they had no patience, so they went for an illegal referendum.

 

The Spanish government represents the Spanish state and is bound to uphold the Constitution. They are not bound to indulge any particular point of view or the aspirations of any political movement.

[Gorgiewave]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

"They were told no"

 

Yay democracy

 

An example of just saying no with which you might agree is the abolition of capital punishment in the UK. There's a good chance that, in a referendum, a majority of voters would have preferred to retain capital punishment. However, they were, in effect, told no. The same with the decriminalisation of homosexual acts. I wouldn't be confident that more than 50% of voters would have approved that in 1967. However, they weren't consulted and a likely majority was over-ruled.

 

Likewise, the smoking bans. Hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland smoked in bars and restaurants. Many wished to continue to do so. However, they were told no.

[Unknown user]

Yeah, that's exactly the same as refusing people the right to self determination.

[Gorgiewave]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yeah, that's exactly the same as refusing people the right to self determination.

 

If you're upset about this, you could write to the Spanish government setting out your reasons why a reform of the Constitution is necessary.

 

Here's what to put on the envelope:

 

Excmo. Don Mariano Rajoy Brey

Presidente del Gobierno de la Nación

La Moncloa

Av. Puerta de Hierro, s/n,

28071 Madrid

Spain

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

If you're upset about this, you could write to the Spanish government setting out your reasons why a reform of the Constitution is necessary.

 

Here's what to put on the envelope:

 

Excmo. Don Mariano Rajoy Brey

Presidente del Gobierno de la Nación

La Moncloa

Av. Puerta de Hierro, s/n,

28071 Madrid

Spain

If I get upset I'm sure I'll be straight on that.

 

If I just think you're talking shit I'll post on here instead though. Yay democracy! 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

They would have preferred that, they were told no.....

 

If they would have preferred that and were told no, why did you say that they didn't seek to have the referendum on a legal basis?

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I'm glad Mr Varadkar seems to think like this.

 

I know you're not the most linear of thinkers, but what on Earth does Leo Varadkar have to do with what I posted?

 

[Gorgiewave]

12 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I know you're not the most linear of thinkers, but what on Earth does Leo Varadkar have to do with what I posted?

 

 

You wrote:

 

Secondly, a narrow vote in favour of separation would be regarded as a mandate for separation, even though in the judgement of sensible people it should be no such thing.  Whether the Catalan separatists like it or not, a very large percentage of their own population are not in favour of seceding from Spain.  This is not just about voting for one thing over another; it is about granting consent to be governed.  That is a very serious thing to do, and if a population is to be compelled to change its national identity then that should not be done lightly or easily.

 

The Belfast Telegraph reported on 17 October of this year:

 

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said there needs to be a bigger majority than 50% plus one in a poll to bring about a united Ireland.

 

In an interview with BBC Spotlight, Mr Varadkar put the issue of a united Ireland on the backburner, saying he would prefer it happened through consensus.

“I wouldn’t like us to get to the point whereby we are changing the constitutional position here in Northern Ireland on a 50% plus one basis," he said.

“One of the best things about the Good Friday Agreement is that it did get very strong cross border support – that’s why there was a 70% vote for it. “I don’t think that there would be a 70% vote for a united Ireland in the morning, for example, or anything remotely to that.”

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-varadkar-says-more-than-50-plus-one-needed-in-united-ireland-poll-what-do-you-think-36235839.html

Perhaps you didn't read that article or see his opinion reported.

[Gorgiewave]

16 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If they would have preferred that and were told no, why did you say that they didn't seek to have the referendum on a legal basis?

 

The article I quoted said that they would have preferred a legal referendum but made no attempt to achieve one, since they knew that three parties (making up a clear majority of MPs) would be sure to vote against it. Preferring it but deciding not to attempt because it would be futile does not amount to seeking it.

[Ulysses]

8 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

You wrote:

 

Secondly, a narrow vote in favour of separation would be regarded as a mandate for separation, even though in the judgement of sensible people it should be no such thing.  Whether the Catalan separatists like it or not, a very large percentage of their own population are not in favour of seceding from Spain.  This is not just about voting for one thing over another; it is about granting consent to be governed.  That is a very serious thing to do, and if a population is to be compelled to change its national identity then that should not be done lightly or easily.

 

The Belfast Telegraph reported on 17 October of this year:

 

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said there needs to be a bigger majority than 50% plus one in a poll to bring about a united Ireland.

 

In an interview with BBC Spotlight, Mr Varadkar put the issue of a united Ireland on the backburner, saying he would prefer it happened through consensus.

“I wouldn’t like us to get to the point whereby we are changing the constitutional position here in Northern Ireland on a 50% plus one basis," he said.

“One of the best things about the Good Friday Agreement is that it did get very strong cross border support – that’s why there was a 70% vote for it. “I don’t think that there would be a 70% vote for a united Ireland in the morning, for example, or anything remotely to that.”

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-varadkar-says-more-than-50-plus-one-needed-in-united-ireland-poll-what-do-you-think-36235839.html

Perhaps you didn't read that article or see his opinion reported.

 

Leo Varadkar's view has nothing to do with what I posted, apart from a link that you might make based on his nationality and mine - which you should keep out of the discussion as it isn't relevant.  Can you try staying on topic?

[Ulysses]

8 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

.....but deciding not to attempt because it would be futile does not amount to seeking it.

 

 

If they didn't attempt it they couldn't have been told no.  Don't keep shifting the goalposts.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

Leo Varadkar's view has nothing to do with what I posted, apart from a link that you might make based on his nationality and mine - which you should keep out of the discussion as it isn't relevant.  Can you try staying on topic?

 

His logic was the same as yours. I thought it likely you would have read or heard his opinion on that. But it is not relevant to Spain so I won't persist on that point, fine.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

If they didn't attempt it they couldn't have been told no.  Don't keep shifting the goalposts.

 

If a person is married, do you think that it is necessary to propose having an affair, or to request permission to do so, before concluding that one's spouse's answer is No?

[Ulysses]

7 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

If a person is married, do you think that it is necessary to propose having an affair, or to request permission to do so, before concluding that one's spouse's answer is No?

 

WTF?  Seriously?

 

You said they never attempted to have the referendum on a legal basis. 

 

You then said they were told no, which means they must have. 

 

Now you've gone off on a complete tangent.  Marriage?  Affairs?   

 

 

 

[John Findlay]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

WTF?  Seriously?

 

You said they never attempted to have the referendum on a legal basis. 

 

You then said they were told no, which means they must have. 

 

Now you've gone off on a complete tangent.  Marriage?  Affairs?   

 

 

 

Knows his stuff though!!

[Psychedelicropcircle]

10 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

 

Spain are acting like a dictatorship right now. Jailing the opposition then holding an election. Maggie May and other European politicians are hoping this blows over so they don’t have to get involved. Spain is hardening the resolve of Catalonia. If the jailing keeps up I fully expect my & other European politicians to tune in the dictator that this ain’t democracy.

[Toggie88]

9 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

If a person is married, do you think that it is necessary to propose having an affair, or to request permission to do so, before concluding that one's spouse's answer is No?

 

You've totally lost it, Gorgiewave. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

 

Spain are acting like a dictatorship right now. Jailing the opposition then holding an election. Maggie May and other European politicians are hoping this blows over so they don’t have to get involved. Spain is hardening the resolve of Catalonia. If the jailing keeps up I fully expect my & other European politicians to tune in the dictator that this ain’t democracy.

 

This is an EU problem, why on earth would 'Maggie May' get involved, when the UK is leaving.

 

But I do agree, if this continues it isn't going to look good on the EU when a member state carries on the way Spain seems to be doing, but what can/will they do, it'll take the other 26 a month or two before they convene a meeting to even discuss the situation, besides they have already given their backing to Madrid over the situation in Catalonia, so they are unlikely to change that stance now.

[ri Alban]

Pro Indy parties set to gain a majority today. So is Mr Corrupt gonnae make them vote again.

[Ibrahim Tall]

It’s appearing Rajoy has(unsurprisingly) made a bit of a ***** of this...

[Space Mackerel]

Spanish Yoons getting another electoral hiding

[Boab]

BBC nailing their colours to the mast.

Sorry, guys,  people win !

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, Boab said:

BBC nailing their colours to the mast.

Sorry, guys,  people win !

 

What? Democracy? Never! ?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Very SNPesque results with a majority of seats for the separatists but unable to obtain 50% of the vote.

 

Seems to me that Spain should grant a proper referendum now and shoot the fox.

[Unknown user]

On 05/11/2017 at 10:26, Toggie88 said:

 

You've totally lost it, Gorgiewave. 

Never had it.

Seems it's not just a noisy minority intimidating the good, Spain loving democrats of catalonia after all eh? Well colour me shockaroonied.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Can imagine gorgiewave planning his gorilla warfare strategy until these natz are aw deed?

[Mikey1874]

Saw a pro independence history professor say in terms of the popular vote it was 47% to 43% in favour of the independence parties.  Some parties not being aligned. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

10 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Very SNPesque results with a majority of seats for the separatists but unable to obtain 50% of the vote.

 

Seems to me that Spain should grant a proper referendum now and shoot the fox.

 

The ‘unionists’ didn’t get 50% either. En Comú Podem is neutral and won 8 seats.

[JamboX2]

5 hours ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

The ‘unionists’ didn’t get 50% either. En Comú Podem is neutral and won 8 seats.

Indeed but the result doesn't suggest a pro-Indy sentiment.

 

I think it's a bitterly divided result.

 

The biggest single party is a unionist one yet the pro-indy ones have a majority together. Will be interesting to see how it unravels. But nonetheless it's too early to say where it's all heading

[redjambo]

7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

Indeed but the result doesn't suggest a pro-Indy sentiment.

 

I think it's a bitterly divided result.

 

The biggest single party is a unionist one yet the pro-indy ones have a majority together. Will be interesting to see how it unravels. But nonetheless it's too early to say where it's all heading

 

Yes it does, but only a marginal one.

[JamboX2]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

Yes it does, but only a marginal one.

I think a popular vote is what follows here. But it's a total mess of a situation. Neither side is going to accept the other's views on this.

 

Why I am starting to go against referendums. Agree with Attlee - a tool which is alien to representative democracy and device of demagogues and dictators.

[redjambo]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

I think a popular vote is what follows here. But it's a total mess of a situation. Neither side is going to accept the other's views on this.

 

Why I am starting to go against referendums. Agree with Attlee - a tool which is alien to representative democracy and device of demagogues and dictators.

 

I'm a fan of benevolent oligarchies myself, but the human race finds it very difficult to produce a continual supply of benevolent leaders.

 

[deesidejambo]

15 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

I think a popular vote is what follows here. But it's a total mess of a situation. Neither side is going to accept the other's views on this.

 

Why I am starting to go against referendums. Agree with Attlee - a tool which is alien to representative democracy and device of demagogues and dictators.

 

On huge issues such as constitution, referenda are stupid unless the pass mark is set at a level that makes it acceptable to both sides that it is a clear mandate one way or the other.

 

50% is guaranteed to deliver nothing but division, uncertainty, and ultimately hatred in the population, regardless of “who wins”.

[redjambo]

44 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

 

On huge issues such as constitution, referenda are stupid unless the pass mark is set at a level that makes it acceptable to both sides that it is a clear mandate one way or the other.

 

50% is guaranteed to deliver nothing but division, uncertainty, and ultimately hatred in the population, regardless of “who wins”.

 

60%?

[deesidejambo]

35 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

60%?

 

In my view more like 70% but I think 60% would be ok with most people,.     It’s a personal thing to everyone.

 

but 50% - forget it.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm a fan of benevolent oligarchies myself, but the human race finds it very difficult to produce a continual supply of benevolent leaders.

 

 

This is sadly very true! 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

 

On huge issues such as constitution, referenda are stupid unless the pass mark is set at a level that makes it acceptable to both sides that it is a clear mandate one way or the other.

 

50% is guaranteed to deliver nothing but division, uncertainty, and ultimately hatred in the population, regardless of “who wins”.

 

It's elected leaders shirking responsibility. If you are the SNP and really want Scottish independence - then campaign for it at an election as part of your manifesto. If you - or as with Catalonia you and a few other parties- win a plurality of seats then enact your manifesto.

 

All this delay, debate and conflict is wasted time and nonsense and to me shows an element of dishonesty - as did the White Paper in 2014 which called for shared regulators and shared institutions with no joint means of political control and oversight. Shambles.

[deesidejambo]

4 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It's elected leaders shirking responsibility. If you are the SNP and really want Scottish independence - then campaign for it at an election as part of your manifesto. If you - or as with Catalonia you and a few other parties- win a plurality of seats then enact your manifesto.

 

All this privarication is nonsense and to me shows an element of dishonesty - as did the White Paper in 2014 which called for shared regulators and shared institutions with no joint means of political control and oversight. Shambles.

 

I agree.   The SNP want to govern at Holyrood and have Independence.   The two are mutually exclusive and success in one actually defeats the purpose of the other.

 

on one aspect I agree with an ex-poster who is now posting under a different name - the SNP should go full out for Independence as an election manifesto.   Get this neverendum off the table so we can all move on.

 

its the continued uncertainty that is destroying the country.

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

 

I agree.   The SNP want to govern at Holyrood and have Independence.   The two are mutually exclusive and success in one actually defeats the purpose of the other.

 

on one aspect I agree with an ex-poster who is now posting under a different name - the SNP should go full out for Independence as an election manifesto.   Get this neverendum off the table so we can all move on.

 

its the continued uncertainty that is destroying the country.

 

Votes Tory at the last GE for Treeza May and a hard Brexit and complains about uncertainty  

The only certainty is Scotland will be independent in our lifetimes. 

 

49%....tick tock

[deesidejambo]

3 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Votes Tory at the last GE for Treeza May and a hard Brexit and complains about uncertainty  

The only certainty is Scotland will be independent in our lifetimes. 

 

49%....tick tock

 

Yawn.

 

Your posts are more and more schemie.

 

For the rest - the 49% stated in the WoS poll was based on a question which asked if Indy Scotland would be allowed in the EU what would you vote.

 

If they had asked the same question to the same people with Scotland not being allowed in the EU, the 49% would drop as it is known that Scotland is 62% pro-EU.

 

So the poll is rigged towards pro-EU voters.

 

But there is a simple test whatscotlandthinks tracks polls and provides Curtice analysis.  No surprise that they dont include this poll as it is biased.

 

Back to Spacey - You really really fear the Tories.   But your low IQ stops you recognising that its a Tory Govt in Westminster that increases the Indy vote as the Tory-Haters, as demonstrated by many on this site, will vote based on hate rather than policy.  Once Labour win in Westminster though you are going to look more dense than you already are.

[Gorgiewave]

Five leading ******s now in prison for their referendum shenanigans and related bullshit.

 

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/03/23/inenglish/1521822325_301768.html

 

A further ***** has fled to Switzerland.