Catalonia referendum

[Don Dan]

The initial response by the protesters wasn't peaceful.

The police were being prevented by the protesters from carrying out their duty. Doors were locked, gates closed, routes blocked, police assaulted. I can see your argument about the level of response but when you're asked to move out of the way or unlock the door and you don't then don't complain when the police escalate the force required to carry out their orders.

 

 

Response to redjambo [emoji16]

 

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[Francis Albert]

The trouble is that the Spanish govt are in a no win situation- allow the vote and if it favours independence then what?

Ignore the "democratic will of the people" ?

That would likely inflame things more as they demanded the vote respected.

 

OR

 

Stop the vote,

 

And you can call it police heavy handedness , but its fairly typical of continental policing

French and Spanish police at, say, football games are fairly happy to wade in

 

Its no different to that, we're just not used to it

 

England footie fan lobs a chair from a bar, 100 riot police wade in with batons and club shit out of everyone .

Indeed. I remember the outrage in the Scottish media over the police "brutality" that followed Rangers fans invasion of the pitch (or rioting depending on your viewpoint) after their Cup Winners Cup win in 1972 at the Nou Camp of all places. I imagine the police in that case were Catalans.

[luckyBatistuta]

Can't answer the question. What a shocker.

He won't because he can't. I'm still waiting for an answer from yesterday. His deflector shields are up.

[Justin Z]

The initial response by the protesters wasn't peaceful.

The police were being prevented by the protesters from carrying out their duty. Doors were locked, gates closed, routes blocked, police assaulted. I can see your argument about the level of response but when you're asked to move out of the way or unlock the door and you don't then don't complain when the police escalate the force required to carry out their orders.

 

 

 

Even if we accept, which again we don't have to, that the proper response by the police to being barred from entering a premises to confiscate items--in a situation where there has been no violence or crime committed against other people--is to escalate and use force . . . even if we do, you have just generalised "the protesters".  The whole point of individual human rights is that none of us can be held responsible by authorities for the actions of anybody else.

 

It doesn't matter if 999,999 protesters barred the police from entering somewhere or attacked them.  The police have zero remit to then go club the millionth pensioner who did no such thing.

[SE16 3LN]

Indeed. I remember the outrage in the Scottish media over the police "brutality" that followed Rangers fans invasion of the pitch (or rioting depending on your viewpoint) after their Cup Winners Cup win in 1972 at the Nou Camp of all places. I imagine the police in that case were Catalans.

Well, Franco was still in power so they had a paramilitary style police force who may have been Catalan (Contrary to popular belief there were many fascists in Barcelona) or from anywhere in Spain.  

[Thunderstruck]

Yeah. Using the political process to point out irregularities, using the judiciary to point out illegalities--all good. Also of course there's the paradox of such a strong-armed reaction ending up lending legitimacy to this vote.

 

Your "international verdict" bit definitely captures the overarching reality: That while this may be a conflict internal to Spain, directly affecting no one else, the ultimate outcome will be massively affected by how the rest of Europe perceive it. Thus why this is such a massive own goal.

What legitimacy does the vote have if the majority of ?No? voters (in fact, the majority of all voters) ignored the process because the vote itself was illegal and unconstitutional?

 

Instead, we have only 38% of the electorate supporting independence and that on a dubious franchise with questionable voting procedures.

 

Mind you, 38% sounds spookily familiar.

[Justin Z]

What legitimacy does the vote have if the majority of ?No? voters (in fact, the majority of all voters) ignored the process because the vote itself was illegal and unconstitutional?

 

Instead, we have only 38% of the electorate supporting independence and that on a dubious franchise with questionable voting procedures.

 

Mind you, 38% sounds spookily familiar.

 

I think seeing as the outcome was 90/10 we can easily question whether the result accurately represents the will of the people.  That's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the paradox of the Spanish government's overreaction from the start, which reached a crescendo with this police violence, lending legitimacy to the process as a whole.

[Thunderstruck]

I think seeing as the outcome was 90/10 we can easily question whether the result accurately represents the will of the people. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the paradox of the Spanish government's overreaction from the start, which reached a crescendo with this police violence, lending legitimacy to the process as a whole.

The disproportionate response by the authorities adds no legitimacy to the vote or process. It may give succour to those seeking independence, it may strengthen their resolve but it adds no validity to the vote or its outcome

[Justin Z]

Fair enough, I just think you vastly underestimate the importance of "good PR" (and the involvement of the rest of Europe) if that's what you've concluded is the reality.

[Pans Jambo]

 

Really?

 

If the Catalans declared UDI do you think Spain would support EU membership? Seriously?

 

 

Sorry,

Heard it all before.

[John Findlay]

Indeed. I remember the outrage in the Scottish media over the police "brutality" that followed Rangers fans invasion of the pitch (or rioting depending on your viewpoint) after their Cup Winners Cup win in 1972 at the Nou Camp of all places. I imagine the police in that case were Catalans.

Police were Spanish. There is not a separate catalan police force.

[Cade]

Police were Spanish. There is not a separate catalan police force.

The Catan region has an autonomous police force called the Mossos.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d%27Esquadra

[redjambo]

Police were Spanish. There is not a separate catalan police force.

 

Did you even attempt to fact check that before writing it?

[Sten Guns]

People doing kiddie on ?votes?, in there mates gaffs, in an unconstitutional / unlawful ?referendum? and people on here refer to it as;

 

EXCERCISING THEIR DEMOCRATIC RIGHT.

 

My word.

 

[Taffin]

What criminal activity were they engaging in that demanded the Police use force against them?

He won't answer.

 

I've read Stens posts on other threads and he's an intelligent guy so I can only assume on these types of thread he's just trolling. Best ignored.

[doctor jambo]

What criminal activity were they engaging in that demanded the Police use force against them?

I kind of know where Sten is going here.

Step back to the Scottish Indy ref

 

had it been held in the manner the Catalunyans were doing-

illegal ballot,

no scrutiny,

back yard polling booths with no monitoring

 

this indicates a foregone conclusion for independence by a landslide

Then the result would have been presented as such and used to further fuel clarion calls for independence .

 

The police is this instance have a duty to uphold the democratic rights (as enshrined in law) of ALL citizens

And when obstructed in their lawful duty to respond.

 

The Catalan plebiscite was a show of catalunyan mob rule, was anti-democratic, illegal and about as valid as the Zimbabwe elections.

 

Anyone who has been abroad know that the police are, erm, brisk.

Soccer fans abroad are forever moaning about being gassed/clubbed/battered and generally treated heavily- that is what the forces do over there.

They are behaving in a manner consistant with how they normally behave when confronted with an angry mob

We have also seen it in Greece and Italy

[Sten Guns]

I kind of know where Sten is going here.

Step back to the Scottish Indy ref

 

had it been held in the manner the Catalunyans were doing-

illegal ballot,

no scrutiny,

back yard polling booths with no monitoring

 

this indicates a foregone conclusion for independence by a landslide

Then the result would have been presented as such and used to further fuel clarion calls for independence .

 

The police is this instance have a duty to uphold the democratic rights (as enshrined in law) of ALL citizens

And when obstructed in their lawful duty to respond.

 

The Catalan plebiscite was a show of catalunyan mob rule, was anti-democratic, illegal and about as valid as the Zimbabwe elections.

 

Anyone who has been abroad know that the police are, erm, brisk.

Soccer fans abroad are forever moaning about being gassed/clubbed/battered and generally treated heavily- that is what the forces do over there.

They are behaving in a manner consistant with how they normally behave when confronted with an angry mob

We have also seen it in Greece and Italy

Spot on, Doc.

[Gorgiewave]

The Catan region has an autonomous police force called the Mossos.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d%27Esquadra

 

That wasn't true in 1972.

[doctor jambo]

I didn't see any signs of an angry mob, other than the Police.

 

I think the Catalan Government made a mistake in trying to hold the election, they should have exhausted every avenue possible before holding an unofficial vote, I'm not sure that they have done this. The Spanish Government should have been more diplomatic in their approach to the situation.

 

The police caving in the heads of people who in their mind are just exorcising their democratic right to vote is totally unacceptable, they did not create the situation, the Governments who are meant to protect them did. Just because Police Brutality is the norm does not mean it should be accepted as justified.

I would expect the police to intercede with all necessary force to protect my democratic rights against people using illegal means to remove my citizenship, nationality and passport

[AlphonseCapone]

What criminal activity were they engaging in that demanded the Police use force against them?

He'll goose-step your question, I mean side step, sorry.

[Pans Jambo]

I kind of know where Sten is going here.

Step back to the Scottish Indy ref

 

had it been held in the manner the Catalunyans were doing-

illegal ballot,

no scrutiny,

back yard polling booths with no monitoring

 

this indicates a foregone conclusion for independence by a landslide

Then the result would have been presented as such and used to further fuel clarion calls for independence .

 

The police is this instance have a duty to uphold the democratic rights (as enshrined in law) of ALL citizens

And when obstructed in their lawful duty to respond.

 

The Catalan plebiscite was a show of catalunyan mob rule, was anti-democratic, illegal and about as valid as the Zimbabwe elections.

 

Anyone who has been abroad know that the police are, erm, brisk.

Soccer fans abroad are forever moaning about being gassed/clubbed/battered and generally treated heavily- that is what the forces do over there.

They are behaving in a manner consistant with how they normally behave when confronted with an angry mob

We have also seen it in Greece and Italy

Just heard the Catalonian MEP on the radio there saying that there is nothing in the constitution of Spain that says any referendum is not allowed. he says it was not illegal. His words. There are 2 courts, the law court that deals in the law and the constitutional court that deals in whether something is unconstitutional or not. That court cannot decide if something is illegal or not and cannot pass sentence. His words.

 

Were they holding some dodgy polling stations because they were afraid of getting their heads bashed in by militant police in face masks and riot gear perhaps?

 

Mob rule? really? I didnt witness any mob ruling anything. The only angry people were dressed in black with riot shields. 

[Pans Jambo]

 

I didn't see any signs of an angry mob, other than the Police.

 

I think the Catalan Government made a mistake in trying to hold the election, they should have exhausted every avenue possible before holding an unofficial vote, I'm not sure that they have done this. The Spanish Government should have been more diplomatic in their approach to the situation.

 

The police caving in the heads of people who in their mind are just exorcising their democratic right to vote is totally unacceptable, they did not create the situation, the Governments who are meant to protect them did. Just because Police Brutality is the norm does not mean it should be accepted as justified.

 

They asked the Spanish Government for dialogue for the last 18 months and their Premier has refused.

[doctor jambo]

That's point though, those bashed, battered and shot at were not using illegal means, nor were they trying to remove anyone's citizenship never mind passport.

Yes, the were.

They were attending an illegal event, to participate in such an illegal event, with the desired outcome of said event being to strip the Spanish citizenship from millions of people

 

Should we not be viewing this as the protection of the civil rights of millions of people from the vociferous posturing of a minority?

[Pans Jambo]

 

Yes, the were.

They were attending an illegal event, to participate in such an illegal event, with the desired outcome of said event being to strip the Spanish citizenship from millions of people

 

Should we not be viewing this as the protection of the civil rights of millions of people from the vociferous posturing of a minority?

 

 

Your opinion is that it was illegal. Their opinion is that they were exercising their democratic right to vote.

 

According the Catalonian MEP on the tranny earlier, he said theres nothing in the Spanish constitution that states holding an indy referendum is illegal.

[doctor jambo]

Even if/when Catalonia becomes independent, Spain will still exist, therefor anyone who wishes to will retain both their citizenship and their passport.

 

How you view it doesn't matter, they were being non-violent and were met with violence from the police.

Does this mean that post Brexit I will get to keep my EU passport?

Or if Scottish indy had happened then I would have got to keep my GB +EU passport?

 

I find your words reassuring!

( though of course I will be stripped of my EU citizenship, and in post Indy Scotland I would be stripped of my GB passport- in the same manner as the Spaniards would be stripped of their Spanish passports were the Catalans to get Indy)

[doctor jambo]

You don't have an EU Passport and after Scottish independence I would expect you to be able to retain your UK Passport, for how long is another matter.

I most certainly DO have an EU passport- as do you- have a look at your passport- it most definitely states EU

I am an EU citizen and it says so on my passport- which I presume will become invalid in a couple of years- at which point I will be charged to buy another "United Kingdom" passport for me and my kids after our citizenships of the EU are removed against my will.

 

There is no way in hell the EU will let me keep my passport as it stands

[AlphonseCapone]

I most certainly DO have an EU passport- as do you- have a look at your passport- it most definitely states EU

I am an EU citizen and it says so on my passport- which I presume will become invalid in a couple of years- at which point I will be charged to buy another "United Kingdom" passport for me and my kids after our citizenships of the EU are removed against my will.

 

There is no way in hell the EU will let me keep my passport as it stands

It's still just a British passport. It is issued by her Majesties Government.

[Thunderstruck]

Yes, the were.

They were attending an illegal event, to participate in such an illegal event, with the desired outcome of said event being to strip the Spanish citizenship from millions of people

 

Should we not be viewing this as the protection of the civil rights of millions of people from the vociferous posturing of a minority?

Excellent point.

[SE16 3LN]

Did you even attempt to fact check that before writing it?

Whether he did or didn't he was right.

[Gorgiewave]

Catalans, in the event of independence, would not lose their Spanish nationality, according to the same Constitution:

2. No person of Spanish birth may be deprived of his or her nationality.

3.The State may negotiate dual nationality treaties with Latin-American countries or with those which have had or which have special links with Spain. In these countries Spaniards may become naturalized without losing their nationality of origin, even if those countries do not grant a reciprocal right to their own citizens.

 

They would be covered by 2. and possibly 3. as well.

[doctor jambo]

Your EU Citizenship is a different matter, as you hold a UK passport.

 

How would the UK decide who to take passports and citizenship off in the event of Scottish Independence?

 

I doubt they will demand everyone changes their passports on Brexit, just change them as the expire, they'll just issue guidence that the EU bit is no longer valid.

I dunno Brian , did the white paper on our new future not explain how we would have our passports and citizenship taken off us?

I must have missed that bit.

Same way the Catalans will not have explained to the Spaniards how they will have their passports and nationality stripped from them- it never looks good in a referendum does it-

" following the nationalist victory all citizens will have their passports invalidated, and their citizenship of their country of birth removed from them, along with all attendant rights and liberties, and we can all assure you that we, your new government, will be fair and proper when we draw up your new rights"

 

Aye, OK

[doctor jambo]

Catalans, in the event of independence, would not lose their Spanish nationality, according to the same Constitution:

2. No person of Spanish birth may be deprived of his or her nationality.

3.The State may negotiate dual nationality treaties with Latin-American countries or with those which have had or which have special links with Spain. In these countries Spaniards may become naturalized without losing their nationality of origin, even if those countries do not grant a reciprocal right to their own citizens.

 

They would be covered by 2. and possibly 3. as well.

Not sure Arragon will allow enough people to live in it with Spanish citizenship that can, at some undetermined point in future hold a vote to rejoin Spain, without the permission of the new countries ruling body then seamlessly join back up ( they could do it HOURS after independence if they wished, which would be interesting)

I cannot see Catalunya wanting a population that was, well, nearly majority Spanish who could undo all the great democratic work done, by democratically voting themselves back into Spain

[Francis Albert]

Police were Spanish. There is not a separate catalan police force.

Of course the police force at that time was a Spanish police force. In Franco's time all police in Spain were part of a Spanish police force. Franco was not strong on autonomy. Nevertheless many Catalans of course served as policemen in Catalonia.

 

I think it likely that if and when Catalonia becomes independent it will employ a police force in the European style, willing and able to clamp down strongly on any movement to reunite Catalonia with Spain.

 

The Catalans cultivate this cuddly image of an open, liberal, tolerant society (a bit like the Scots) but in fact Catalonia historically has been a hotbed of extremists, Infighting between extremist Republican factions in Catalonia contributed to Franco's victory in the Civil War.

 

(And we Scots like to gloss over, in our self image as a people oppressed by English colonialism, that we were absolutely in the forefront of British colonialism and its many atrocities)

[Gorgiewave]

The name in English of this region of Spain is Catalonia. Catalunya is the name to use if you're writing (or speaking) in Catalan.

[doctor jambo]

But that isn't going to happen, countries don't go about stripping citizenship of their citizens, that is why the world is full of people with more than one passport.

Brexit is about to show you otherwise

I am an EU citizen with EU rights

These are going to be taken off me, against my will.

 

Following a referendum based on myth, conjecture, grudge and self interest,

that will restrict the rights of myself and family to move around Europe and live/work/visit where I want

 

Kind of runs counter to what you say, Brian

[Boris]

Brexit is about to show you otherwise

I am an EU citizen with EU rights

These are going to be taken off me, against my will.

 

Following a referendum based on myth, conjecture, grudge and self interest,

that will restrict the rights of myself and family to move around Europe and live/work/visit where I want

 

Kind of runs counter to what you say, Brian

You are only an eu citizen courtesy of your British nationality.

 

If Britain leaves the EU, unfortunately so your status as an eu citizen also goes. Hence the rise in applications for Irish passports.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You are only an eu citizen courtesy of your British nationality.

 

If Britain leaves the EU, unfortunately so your status as an eu citizen also goes. Hence the rise in applications for Irish passports.

 

My kids can have 3 passports. They may do so!

 

Anyway, the key "loss" of EU citizenship, which should be an oxymoron in any case as the European Union should not exist as a superstate IMO, is the right to work abroad. I would say the number of British people affected by that is relatively small.

 

The Catalans declaring UDI would find life very different, by contrast. No Schengen agreement for starters. Using the Euro like Montenegro without a central bank would also be a barrel of laughs.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Which is not the situation if Scotland or Catalonia gain independence.

 

 

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How do you work that one out?

[Gorgiewave]

How do you work that one out?

 

Geoff, the Northern Irish referendum of 1973 never gets much of a mention. Is it forgotten? Because it was boycotted by republicans?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The EU is not a sovereign state. Spain and the UK are.

 

 

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Quite, but Scotland and Catalonia are parts of Spain and the UK respectively. On an independence vote, they would become new countries and would have to apply for membership on their own merits.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff, the Northern Irish referendum of 1973 never gets much of a mention. Is it forgotten? Because it was boycotted by republicans?

It was boycotted by Nationalists, let alone republicans.

 

Not sure of its relevance here though. If you want an Irish comparison to these events, I'd suggest reading up on the 1918 "Khaki" election. Sinn Fein won a majority of seats and simply refused to go to Westminster, setting up the Dail instead. Eventually that led to the 1920 Government of Ireland Act.

 

Why Sinn Fein won a majority of seats was twofold. One was the revulsion at how the aftermath of the Easter Rising was handled which led to a growth in republican sympathies, something the Spanish should bear in mind. The other was the threat of the extension of conscription to Ireland given the Germans last hurrah in 1918 after the peace treaty with Bolshevik Russia.

[Gorgiewave]

It was boycotted by Nationalists, let alone republicans.

 

Not sure of its relevance here though. If you want an Irish comparison to these events, I'd suggest reading up on the 1918 "Khaki" election. Sinn Fein won a majority of seats and simply refused to go to Westminster, setting up the Dail instead. Eventually that led to the 1920 Government of Ireland Act.

 

Why Sinn Fein won a majority of seats was twofold. One was the revulsion at how the aftermath of the Easter Rising was handled which led to a growth in republican sympathies, something the Spanish should bear in mind. The other was the threat of the extension of conscription to Ireland given the Germans last hurrah in 1918 after the peace treaty with Bolshevik Russia.

 

Just because it was a referendum with 90%+ support for one side, which settled nothing.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I meant in terms of continued UK or Spanish citizenship not continued EU.

 

 

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Gotcha

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just because it was a referendum with 90%+ support for one side, which settled nothing.

That was part of a wider strategy, showing that the British government had the power to act on behalf for the people of Northern Ireland post Stormont's dissolution in 1972.

 

That that led to the Sunningdale agreement and being brought down by an organised strike probably drove Westminster mad but then "conditional loyalty" is a perplexing phrase for most in Whitehall.

[redjambo]

Whether he did or didn't he was right.

 

Nope. "There is not a separate Catalan police force" is not correct. There is one, as pointed out above.

 

"There wasn't a separate Catalan police force at the time" would have been correct, but that is not what the poster said (or, I imagine, meant, otherwise they would have used the past tense).

 

You may think it is splitting hairs, but we have to take what people say at face value.

[jake]

Its another example of democracy meaning fek all.

Not surprisingly the leaders of the big players of the EU say nothing.

Our very own brexit vote dismissed.

Scottish independence rallied against by establishment media.

Ordinary peoples views dismissed throughout Europe dismissed as racist .

 

Its all to do with protecting the status quo.

And imo (apparently to some right wing hoho what a joke)

Pandering to any abuse of anyone should be met full on from all socialists.

Be they the EU the Spaniish police religious fascists or our own government.

 

The expression through voting should always be accepted unless you want violence.

But it seems these days it only suits the dogmatic.

 

Go on the Catalan

Go on the brexit

Go on the Scottish nationalists

Go on the hungarians

Go on the pPolish

Go on anyone who rocks the boat

[Taffin]

I meant in terms of continued UK or Spanish citizenship not continued EU.

 

 

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Would that not be the same thing in the Catalonia case. Retain Spanish citizenship and in turn EU citizenship?

[jake]

And especially go on to those who are brave enough in this country and are part of the labour movement who speak out against religious fascists.

[Gorgiewave]

That was part of a wider strategy, showing that the British government had the power to act on behalf for the people of Northern Ireland post Stormont's dissolution in 1972.

 

That that led to the Sunningdale agreement and being brought down by an organised strike probably drove Westminster mad but then "conditional loyalty" is a perplexing phrase for most in Whitehall.

Meaning, loyalty as long as Britain is loyal to Northern Ireland?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Meaning, loyalty as long as Britain is loyal to Northern Ireland?

It can do.

 

Essentially, loyalty in NI is being loyal to the crown, not Westminster. Oh and the half crown in some instances too.