Catalonia referendum

[Gorgiewave]

3 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

And knowing what I know about both as a complete outsider to both, this confirms for me what I suspected about how deeply rooted and blinding your biases are.

 

I've managed to get on with Jake, Alphonse Capone and redjambo on this thread. Join the revolution, Justin.

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I've managed to get on with Jake, Alphonse Capone and redjambo on this thread. Join the revolution, Justin.

 

Oh I don't see any reason for us to not get on because of what I've concluded. On the contrary, I'd not have made my post at all if it seemed like you were incapable of taking on other perspectives--and I say that from a similarly deferential position, that my initial conclusion could very well be completely wrong. 

[redjambo]

6 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I think you missed my point. Before Pudigemont called in (apologies if spelled incorrectly), he didn't win a vote in the Catalan parliament on HOLDING the referendum. That is why I think the whole thing has been an unnecessary pantomime. Imagine Sturgeon calling IndyRef 2 after Holyrood had rejected it? She would be laughed out of Edinburgh!

 

The Catalan parliament passed the law to hold the referendum on 6 September 2017 by 72 votes to 52.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/06/spanish-government-condemns-catalonia-over-independence-referendum

[redjambo]

30 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I've managed to get on with Jake, Alphonse Capone and redjambo on this thread. Join the revolution, Justin.

 

Yeah, that was a strange day indeed. Anyway, back to normal today?

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Yeah, that was a strange day indeed. Anyway, back to normal today?

 

As long as Scottish and Catalan nationalists are in their boxes, I'll be relaxed and happy.

 

España 1-O Independentistas Catalanes

 

Os votarem a la basura

[redjambo]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

As long as Scottish and Catalan nationalists are in their boxes, I'll be relaxed and happy.

 

España 1-O Independentistas Catalanes

 

Os votarem a la basura

 

Showing great respect for people with differing viewpoints...

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

Showing great respect for people with differing viewpoints...

 

I was just trying to make you feel normal...

 

Apologies, universal right of self-determination.

 

Right of self-determination does not mean presumption of self-determination. There's a wee detail they try and slip by us.

 

Still, it's keeping Inés Arrimadas in the news.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

I was just trying to make you feel normal...

 

An impossible task, I'm afraid.

 

Quote

 

Right of self-determination does not mean presumption of self-determination. There's a wee detail they try and slip by us.

 

 

Can you explain?

 

Quote

Still, it's keeping Inés Arrimadas in the news.

 

Something we can definitely agree on.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

An impossible task, I'm afraid.

 

 

Can you explain?

 

 

Something we can definitely agree on.

 

 

 

We've discussed the right to self-determination. We agree it's a good thing. However, if you listen to the SNP or Catalan nationalists, or even some people on this thread, you'd think any group of people that can be identified as different should be independent. One thing is saying you have the right to choose; assuming you should be independent is very different. Scotland had the right to choose. It said No. That is the sovereign will of the people of Scotland, as Mr Salmond put it. But, from the 2007 SNP manifesto:

 

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ass07/man/scot/snp.pdf

 

Success for Scotland

Scotland can be more successful. Looking around at home and at our near neighbours abroad,

more and more Scots believe this too. Independence is the natural state for nations like our own.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

21 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

The Catalan parliament passed the law to hold the referendum on 6 September 2017 by 72 votes to 52.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/06/spanish-government-condemns-catalonia-over-independence-referendum

Apologies. I should have clarified. By Catalonia's own statutes, it needed a two thirds majority to be legal. The point stands.

[redjambo]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

We've discussed the right to self-determination. We agree it's a good thing. However, if you listen to the SNP or Catalan nationalists, or even some people on this thread, you'd think any group of people that can be identified as different should be independent. One thing is saying you have the right to choose; assuming you should be independent is very different. Scotland had the right to choose. There it has self-determined. It said No. But, from the 2007 SNP manifesto:

 

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ass07/man/scot/snp.pdf

 

Success for Scotland

Scotland can be more successful. Looking around at home and at our near neighbours abroad,

more and more Scots believe this too. Independence is the natural state for nations like our own.

 

Ah, I get you. That of course is purely the opinion of that particular political party. I have to say that it is a strange opinion to have, as if trying to meld a scientific principle to a political opinion, but in the end they're just saying "We want Scotland to become an independent country" and that's fair enough to have as an opinion.

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Apologies. I should have clarified. By Catalonia's own statutes, it needed a two thirds majority to be legal. The point stands.

 

I didn't know that, thanks Geoff.

 

Is it the  Estatuto de Autonomía you are referring to? Out of interest, is this federal or regional law?

[Gorgiewave]

14 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I didn't know that, thanks Geoff.

 

Is it the  Estatuto de Autonomía you are referring to? Out of interest, is this federal or regional law?

It's a regional law. It's effectively a state constitution. The Spanish government can suspend some or all of the competences set out in it if they are not in accordance with the Spanish Constitution. The US Supreme Court does the same (the Supremacy Clause).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia

 

The famous article 155 of the Spanish Constitution, which is in the process of being applied, says:

 

"1. If an autonomous community [Spanish region] were not to fulfil the duties imposed upon it under the Constitution or other laws, or were to act in a manner that gravely attacked the general interest of Spain, the government, having first notified the First Minister of the autonomous community and, in if no reply were received, with an absolute majority in the Senate, may adopt the measures necessary to oblige that [region] to forcibly comply with said duties or to protect the aforementioned general interest."

"2. To execute the measures foreseen in the previous section, the government may give instructions to all of the authorities in the autonomous communities."

 

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

It's a regional law. It's effectively a state constitution. The Spanish government can suspend some or all of the competences set out in it if they are not in accordance with the Spanish Constitution. The US Supreme Court does the same (the Supremacy Clause).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia

 

Ok. What I don't get yet is how the majority decision to hold a referendum on independence was deemed to be against the state constitution if we've already ascertained that any moves towards independence weren't permitted by the Spanish constitution in the first place. How could the state constitution contain a two thirds majority provision on a subject which it wasn't permitted to countenance? Was it merely a generic provision in the state constitution?

[Gorgiewave]

10 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Ok. What I don't get yet is how the majority decision to hold a referendum on independence was deemed to be against the state constitution if we've already ascertained that any moves towards independence weren't permitted by the Spanish constitution in the first place. How could the state constitution contain a two thirds majority provision on a subject which it wasn't permitted to countenance? Was it merely a generic provision in the state constitution?

It can't do so. The Catalan parliament passed a law, without debate, on 6 September this year, called the Referendum Act. It provided for an independence referendum to be held on 1 October. According to the Statute of Autonomy, it had no power to do so. The Spanish Constitution, to which the Statute of Autonomy is subordinate, explicitly states that the Spanish nation is indissoluble and that the regions would have the list of competences I posted yesterday.

 

So this "Referendum Act" was a load of baloney, with no legal basis. The Spanish government brought a case before the Constitutional Court to have the Referendum Act declared illegal. The Constitutional Court declared the Referendum Act unconstitutional and ordered the police and Guardia Civil to prevent its provisions from being executed. They did so, by closing schools, confiscating ballot boxes, etc., on 1 October. The Catalan Parliament has subsequently declared the results of the unconstitutional referendum - 90% for yes on a 43% turnout - and the Spanish government, seeing that the Catalan government continues to act well outside the Constitution and Statute of Autonomy, is in the process of applying article 155 of the Constitution.

 

The Spanish government, seeing that the Catalan regional government is not governing according to its own Statute of Autonomy, is going to do it for it. Specifically, it will intervene in Education so that the regional education system is not used for indoctrination; it will intervene in policing, since the Catalan regional police were very passive in applying the ruling of the Constitutional Court, it has already intervened in its finances to prevent it spending money on unconstitutional actions, and it will call elections. If a new government is elected that can be trusted to act within the Statue of Autonomy and the Constitution, the Education, policing and finance competences will be returned.

 

This is what's been in the news in Catalonia recently.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

It can't do so. The Catalan parliament passed a law, without debate, on 6 September this year, called the Referendum Act. It provided for an independence referendum to be held on 1 October. According to the Statute of Autonomy, it had no power to do so. The Spanish Constitution, to which the Statute of Autonomy is subordinate, explicitly states that the Spanish nation is indissouble and that the regions would have the list of competences I posted yesterday.

 

So this "Referendum Act" was a load of baloney, with no legal basis. The Spanish government brought a case before the Constitutional Court to have the Referendum Act declared illegal. The Constitutional Court declared the Referendum Act unconstitutional and ordered the police and Guardia Civil to prevent its provisions from being executed. They did so, by closing schools, confiscating ballot boxes, etc., on 1 October. The Catalan Parliament has subsequently declared the results of the unconstitutional referendum - 90% for yes on a 43% turnout - and the Spanish government, seeing that the Catalan government continues to act well outside the Constitution and Statute of Autonomy, is in the process of applying article 155 of the Constitution.

 

This is what's been in the news in Catalonia recently.

 

I understand all that, and you've argued as such on here already. Putting aside the underlying illegality of the referendum act according to the Spanish constitution, the question I asked however was: Where does this "two thirds majority" clause come in? I can't see there being a two thirds majority clause on a matter to which it is not allowed to pertain.

[Gorgiewave]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I understand all that, and you've argued as such on here already. Putting aside the underlying illegality of the referendum act according to the Spanish constitution, the question I asked however was: Where does this "two thirds majority" clause come in? I can't see there being a two thirds majority clause on a matter to which it is not allowed to pertain.

 

Geoff may have had in mind articles 222 and 223 of the Statute of Autonomy, according to which a two-thirds majority is required to reform the Statute. However, no attempt was made to reform the Statute. It was just a normal law, though with unusual consequences.

 

Any such attempt would have been brought before the Constitutional Court and would have been declared unconstitutional.

 

https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/150259.pdf

 

There's no point in looking for the logic, since there is none. The Scotland Act 1998 reserves foreign affairs to Westminster. If the Scottish Government tried to have Scotland leave NATO, it would have no legal basis and would be meaningless. This is similar to what has happened. As they say in mathematics, the action of the Catalan government was not even wrong.

[redjambo]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

Geoff may have had in mind articles 222 and 223 of the Statute of Autonomy, according to which a two-thirds majority is required to reform the Statute. However, no attempt was made to reform the Statute. It was just a normal law, though with unusual consequences.

 

Any such attempt would have been brought before the Constitutional Court and would have been declared unconstitutional.

 

https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/150259.pdf

 

Ok. Thanks for the info.

[Gorgiewave]

A very good denunciation of the Catalan government's attempts at blackmail:

 

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/20/inenglish/1508492345_674233.html

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It can't possibly be right that Catalonia declares independence on the back of this vote. It was a shambles.

[Gorgiewave]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It can't possibly be right that Catalonia declares independence on the back of this vote. It was a shambles.

 

They'll be out on their arse before long after new elections. They've met their Waterloo.

[Boris]

2 hours ago, niblick1874 said:

 

I understand where Gorgiewave is coming from. Shameful? As for me, there are very few legitimate choices left (if any) for those that wish to stands against globalism.

 

I know you couldn't slide a fag paper in between the communism and globalism of today. Shameful? 

 

Communism and todays globalism are the same?  Wow.  Really?

 

One aims at the brotherhood of man, providing for everyone, the other is run for corporate greed, exploiting people all over the world.

 

BUt yeah, they sound the same.

[Boris]

31 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It can't possibly be right that Catalonia declares independence on the back of this vote. It was a shambles.

 

Agree.  I suspect they may have wanted an official referendum as a concession, but think they may have miscalculated there.

[Francis Albert]

20 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Just because it agrees with your views. That does not a "best post" make.

To be fair it is the normal, indeed almost the only, criterion  on which posts are rated on here.

[deesidejambo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Communism and todays globalism are the same?  Wow.  Really?

 

One aims at the brotherhood of man, providing for everyone, the other is run for corporate greed, exploiting people all over the world.

 

BUt yeah, they sound the same.

Wasn't it Churchill or some spud who said..........

 

Capitalism is subjugation of one group of people by another.  Communism is the other way round.

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

Wasn't it Churchill or some spud who said..........

 

Capitalism is subjugation of one group of people by another.  Communism is the other way round.

 

It’s hard to tell the difference these days - 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/19/china-risks-minsky-moment-debt-reaches-saturation/

[Justin Z]

14 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

It’s hard to tell the difference these days - 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/19/china-risks-minsky-moment-debt-reaches-saturation/

 

Heh well it shouldn't be--state-directed capitalism isn't anything even remotely resembling communism.

[Tazio]

Now it gets interesting. 

 

The Catalan parliament have just voted to declare independence. 

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

Jail for a few people and very soon.

 

 

[Don Dan]

The Catalan regional parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain, just as the Spanish government appears set to impose direct rule.

The move was backed 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by opposition MPs.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy earlier told senators direct rule was needed to return "law, democracy and stability" to Catalonia.

 

There is 135 mps in this parliament is those MPs who abstained had vote against independence the70 would have been defeated. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

 

Spanish Prime Minister has said that the rule of law will be restored, and the Spanish Parliament is likely to strip Catalonia of it's autonomy and impose direct rule from Madrid.

 

Can't see this ending well, I'm afraid.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

The Catalan regional parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain, just as the Spanish government appears set to impose direct rule.

The move was backed 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by opposition MPs.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy earlier told senators direct rule was needed to return "law, democracy and stability" to Catalonia.

 

There is 135 mps in this parliament is those MPs who abstained had vote against independence the70 would have been defeated. 

Eh? 135 - 70 = 65. A 5-vote defeat was the best possible outcome.

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Spanish Prime Minister has said that the rule of law will be restored, and the Spanish Parliament is likely to strip Catalonia of it's autonomy and impose direct rule from Madrid.

 

Can't see this ending well, I'm afraid.

 

Yes it will. Some of the leader bampots will end up in jail and the rest disheartened and depressed. That's a good ending.

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Eh? 135 - 70 = 65. A 5-vote defeat was the best possible outcome.

 

right enough brains confused this afternoon 

 

 

[yabadabadoo1874again]

3 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

 

+10 = 75

 

 

??? 

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

 

 

??? 

 

 

Poor arithmetic on my part 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

7 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Yes it will. Some of the leader bampots will end up in jail and the rest disheartened and depressed. That's a good ending.

 

Not if the people stay on the streets like they are promising and try and protect the leaders from arrest, what do the Police do then?

[doctor jambo]

On ‎20‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 17:26, deesidejambo said:

Wasn't it Churchill or some spud who said..........

 

Capitalism is subjugation of one group of people by another.  Communism is the other way round.

capitalism is subjugation of one group of people by another. Communism is subjugation of everyone by one group of people

[Tazio]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Not if the people stay on the streets like they are promising and try and protect the leaders from arrest, what do the Police do then?

 

Same as they did on on the day of the vote. Batter shite out of anyone within clubbing distance. 

[Gorgiewave]

31 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Not if the people stay on the streets like they are promising and try and protect the leaders from arrest, what do the Police do then?

Arrest them for obstructing the Police? I wouldn't like to try to stop the Police doing their job, would you?

[Sarah O]

 

So pleased for the Catalans.  

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Arrest them for obstructing the Police? I wouldn't like to try to stop the Police doing their job, would you?

 

I think there will be many who will try and stop the Police,  I just can't see the Catalans standing back and allowing the Spanish police to arrest their leaders.

 

[Tazio]

UDI never tends to work very well.

[doctor jambo]

25 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

 

So pleased for the Catalans.  

Is that the pro-independence minority who have just declared illegal UDI against the wishes of the majority who live in catalonia,

or the majority who don't want independence who will get to see the eejits getting their skulls caved in?

[Ibrahim Tall]

18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Is that the pro-independence minority who have just declared illegal UDI against the wishes of the majority who live in catalonia,

or the majority who don't want independence who will get to see the eejits getting their skulls caved in?

To be honest given there has never been a 'proper' vote it's not fair to say with certainty a "majority" want either result. Polls are nonsense, as had been proven by practically every single election in recent years.

[Seymour M Hersh]

So will Madrid chuck Barcelona and Espanyol out of La Liga and do Uefa chuck Barcelona out of the CL now?

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

So will Madrid chuck Barcelona and Espanyol out of La Liga and do Uefa chuck Barcelona out of the CL now?

 

Too much money involved in the football side of things

[Seymour M Hersh]

Just now, Jeffosphere said:

 

Too much money involved in the football side of things

 

Madrid won't give a damn about the football money in relation to the monet Catalonia pays into the Spanish Exchequer.

[Don Dan]

So if Catalonia does become independent how does their EU status stand. Spain is the member an Independent Catalonia isn't. Therefor WTO rules apply immediately. If the EU try to fudge it what impact will it have on Brexit? Can of worms, Pandoras Box, Genie out of the Bottle take your pick or all may apply. 

[Sraman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

 

Oooooft.