Catalonia referendum

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

Oh dear. Scotland said No and now Spain has said No. There are no fascists.

 

 

How was your wee bus trip to and from Barcelona? 

[Gorgiewave]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

How was your wee bus trip to and from Barcelona? 

You must have confused me with another person.

[luckydug]

If the majority in Catalonia are indeed against Independence why is the Spanish government so scared to call a LEGAL referendum ?

For all the faults that the UK has at least we fought it out over the ballot box not in the streets (apart from one or two incidents).

Spain has just created the prospect of yet  another terrorist group. They have handled this very badly and now if they go ahead and jail any of the Catalan leaders the situation could escalate into violence. The Spanish police have a history of violence and attacking innocent civilians may have been the final straw. 

[Gorgiewave]

24 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If the majority in Catalonia are indeed against Independence why is the Spanish government so scared to call a LEGAL referendum ?

For all the faults that the UK has at least we fought it out over the ballot box not in the streets (apart from one or two incidents).

Spain has just created the prospect of yet  another terrorist group. They have handled this very badly and now if they go ahead and jail any of the Catalan leaders the situation could escalate into violence. The Spanish police have a history of violence and attacking innocent civilians may have been the final straw. 

Independence and therefore an independence referendum are illegal according to the Spanish Constitution. The Spanish government can't just "call" a referendum.

[Sraman]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

Independence and therefore an independence referendum are illegal according to the Spanish Constitution. The Spanish government can't just "call" a referendum.

 

 

That's Americas argument for mass shootings "oh but our constitution...." ...can be altered to reflect the present situation.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

31 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If the majority in Catalonia are indeed against Independence why is the Spanish government so scared to call a LEGAL referendum ?

For all the faults that the UK has at least we fought it out over the ballot box not in the streets (apart from one or two incidents).

Spain has just created the prospect of yet  another terrorist group. They have handled this very badly and now if they go ahead and jail any of the Catalan leaders the situation could escalate into violence. The Spanish police have a history of violence and attacking innocent civilians may have been the final straw. 

You would have a point if Catalonia had met its own constitutional hurdle in the Catalan parliament of a 2/3rds majority.

 

It didn't.

[Gorgiewave]

5 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

That's Americas argument for mass shootings "oh but our constitution...." ...can be altered to reflect the present situation.

The Constitution can be amended. But the Catalan nationalists have never sought to amend it. They've just ignored it.

[Ulysses]

30 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If the majority in Catalonia are indeed against Independence why is the Spanish government so scared to call a LEGAL referendum ?

For all the faults that the UK has at least we fought it out over the ballot box not in the streets (apart from one or two incidents).

Spain has just created the prospect of yet  another terrorist group. They have handled this very badly and now if they go ahead and jail any of the Catalan leaders the situation could escalate into violence. The Spanish police have a history of violence and attacking innocent civilians may have been the final straw. 

 

I would hope that the Spanish government are taking advice - even if very quietly and behind the scenes - from the UK government.  Because whatever else you can say about Westminster and Whitehall, they have learned the hard way about how to manage political issues like this.

 

The Spanish could try beating the shite out of unarmed people as they did at the start of October, but that is likely to radicalise many in the population.  They could try jailing the leaders of the pro-Independence movement to prevent them taking part in the December elections, but that is likely to radicalise many in the population.  What else can they try?  Internment without trial?  Shoot to kill? 

 

To date the approach of the Spanish government has been to use and misuse legal devices to further their political agenda, while the approach of the Catalan secessionists has been in the realms of fantasy politics.  Neither will serve Spain or Catalonia well into the future, and therefore both sides will have to cop themselves on.

[Space Mackerel]

3 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

You must have confused me with another person.

 

Nope, you’re the only diehard Spanish National on this Hearts football supporters forum.

[Gorgiewave]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Nope, you’re the only diehard Spanish National on this Hearts football supporters forum.

I'm not a Spanish national. I'm a loyal subject of Her Britannic Majesty and a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

Between that and Hearts, we have a lot in common, Spacey. A lot.

[AlphonseCapone]

7 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Until Scottish nationalism and Catalan nationalism are faint memories, I'll snipe, yes.

 

In other, informative news, two of the main Catalan nationalist parties have said they will take part in the election on 21 December. Called by the Spanish government. I infer from this that they accept that Catalonia is not independent. This is welcome.

 

Podemos will likely also suffer from being too tempted to support independence. This is a Good Thing.

 

You'll be dead long before Scottish or Catalan nationalism my chum. Best to take up a less bitter pastime.

[North Berwick Jambo]

I finally decided to have a good look through this thread and It's quite interesting reading the views most people on here have about the situation in Catalonia. As someone who strongly supported independence in Scotland I assumed I would automatically be sympathetic towards the Catalan claim after moving here and visiting Barcelona often but the more I learned about it the less convinced I have become. In many ways it actually annoys the hell out of me now when they keep comparing their situation to Scotland's because for me they are nowhere near similar. 

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, Ibiza Jambo said:

I finally decided to have a good look through this thread and It's quite interesting reading the views most people on here have about the situation in Catalonia. As someone who strongly supported independence in Scotland I assumed I would automatically be sympathetic towards the Catalan claim after moving here and visiting Barcelona often but the more I learned about it the less convinced I have become. In many ways it actually annoys the hell out of me now when they keep comparing their situation to Scotland's because for me they are nowhere near similar. 

What differences have you seen?

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

I'm not a Spanish national. I'm a loyal subject of Her Britannic Majesty and a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

Between that and Hearts, we have a lot in common, Spacey. A lot.

 

Apart from post utter drivel on this Scottish football clubs fans website, what exactly have you done for Queen and country then? 

 

 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

What differences have you seen?

 

Good question. I'm also interested to hear Ibiza Jambo's opinion on the differences.

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Independence and therefore an independence referendum are illegal according to the Spanish Constitution. The Spanish government can't just "call" a referendum.

That's such a cheap argument, they could make an amendment then do it, IF there was any will at all.

Let's not pretend constitutions are immovable objects

[luckydug]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

That's such a cheap argument, they could make an amendment then do it, IF there was any will at all.

Let's not pretend constitutions are immovable objects

Exactly !

It does look as if the Spanish government are running scared.

If they are so sure the majority of Catalans don't want independence then call a vote  and encourage everyone to vote.

Hiding behind out of date laws is so cowardly but then what do you expect from a government that allows it's Police to attack civilians. 

[Gorgiewave]

26 minutes ago, Smithee said:

That's such a cheap argument, they could make an amendment then do it, IF there was any will at all.

Let's not pretend constitutions are immovable objects

Why should they? They don't want Catalonia to be independent or for there to be a referendum. It's for the Catalan nationalists to make a case and win support from other parties in Spain. If their case was for a Constitutional amendment, they might find support, including abroad.

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Why should they? They don't want Catalonia to be independent or for there to be a referendum. It's for the Catalan nationalists to make a case and win support from other parties in Spain. If their case was for a Constitutional amendment, they might find support, including abroad.

That's exactly my point though - let's not pretend they can't, when the truth is they won't.

 

This shows they're being obstructive, looking for hurdles rather then solutions, and it's a cop out to hide behind the constitution

[North Berwick Jambo]

3 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

What differences have you seen?

 

Ove

[Toggie88]

22 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Oh dear. Scotland said No and now Spain has said No. There are no fascists.

 

 

Spain saying 'no' is completely ignoring democracy - energising the far right. As others have said, if Spain is confident it will hold together, endorse a Catalan referendum. If you wanna play the constitution card, then there has to be away to change the constitution legally to allow clear democratic acts. 

[jack D and coke]

On 31/10/2017 at 11:39, redjambo said:

 

Back to sniping from the gutter I see, GW.

 

It's a real shame. For a while there you were posting constructive, objective, very informative posts on the situation. You probably noticed the respect you were getting from other posters as a result, even those with views diametrically opposed to yours. Oh well, good things don't always last...

Almost about to post the same thing. Loads of really good posting and interesting points, I was about to say I’d completely changed my opinion on GW.....then back to the snidey ones we recognise on these subjects sadly. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

 

 

Spain saying 'no' is completely ignoring democracy - energising the far right. As others have said, if Spain is confident it will hold together, endorse a Catalan referendum. If you wanna play the constitution card, then there has to be away to change the constitution legally to allow clear democratic acts. 

Another one conveniently ignoring the Catalans own constitution and the failure to obtain a two thirds majority.

[Gorgiewave]

3 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

 

 

Spain saying 'no' is completely ignoring democracy - energising the far right. As others have said, if Spain is confident it will hold together, endorse a Catalan referendum. If you wanna play the constitution card, then there has to be away to change the constitution legally to allow clear democratic acts. 

 

There is a way to change the constitution. Its set out in Part X:

 

validity of which the judgment depends, might

be contrary to the Constitution, it may bring the

matter before the Constitutional Court in the

circumstances, manner and subject to the

consequences to be laid down by law, which

shall in no case have a suspensive effect.

Section 164

1.

The judgments of the Constitutional

Court shall be published in the Official State

Gazette (Boletín Oficial del Estado), with the

dissenting opinions, if any. They have the for-

ce of res judicata from the day following their

publication, and no appeal may be brought

against them. Those declaring the unconstitu-

tionality of an act or of a statute with the force

of an act and all those which are not limited to

the acknowledgment of an individual right,

shall be fully binding on all persons.

2.

Unless the judgment rules otherwise,

the part of the act not affected by unconstitu-

tionality shall remain in force.

Section 165

An organic act shall make provision for the

functioning of the Constitutional Court, the sta-

tus of its members, the procedure to be follo-

wed before it, and the conditions governing ac-

tions brought before it.

PART X

Constitutional Amendment

Section 166

The right to propose a constitutional

amendment shall be exercised under the pro-

visions of section 87, subsections 1 and 2.

Se

1.

Bills on constitutional amendments

must be approved by a majority of three-fifths

of members of each House. If there is no

agreement between the Houses, an effort to

reach it shall be made by setting up a Joint

Committee of an equal number of Members of

Congress and Senators which shall submit a

text to be voted on by the Congress and the

Senate.

2.

If approval is not obtained by means of

the procedure outlined in the foregoing sub-

section, and provided that the text has been

passed by the overall majority of the members

of the Senate, the Congress may pass the

amendment by a two-thirds vote in favour.

3.

Once the amendment has been passed

by the Cortes Generales, it shall be submitted

to ratification by referendum, if so requested

by one tenth of the members of either House

within fifteen days after its passage.

Section 168

1.

If a total revision of the Constitution is

proposed, or a partial revision thereof, affec-

ting the Preliminary Part, Chapter II, Division 1

of Part I; or Part II, the principle of the propo-

sed reform shall be approved by a two-thirds

majority of the members of each House, and

the Cortes Generales shall immediately be

dissolved.

2.

The Houses elected thereupon must ra-

tify the decision and proceed to examine the

new constitutional text, which must be passed

by a two-thirds majority of the members of

each House.

3.

Once the amendment has been passed

by the Cortes Generales, it shall be submitted

to ratification by referendum.

 

Section 169

The process of constitutional amendment

may not be initiated in time of war or under any

of the states considered in section 116.

 

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

However, why one party or group of parties, wishing one outcome (no independence and no referendum) would facilitate exactly that to those who do want it, I don't know. As with everything in a democracy, it will depend on votes.

 

Also, remember that all of Spain, including Catalonia, signed up to this. None of us could sign an employment contract and then declare that we have rights that are not contained in the contract. The contract may be renegotiated and a new settlement reached. Or, the contract may be enforced as it is. You might decide that the salary you agreed to is too low, or your hours too long, but your employer has no obligation to grant the conditions you want. Likewise, they might want to cut your salary, but you don't have to agree.

[redjambo]

I have to say that Puigdemont and his cohorts have totally mucked it up by heading to Brussels and refusing to return to Spain. They needed to present a resolute stance. They needed to stay in Catalonia and, if necessary, act as martyrs for their cause by being imprisoned. They needed to keep the momentum going, feed that momentum, let Spain make the mistakes. This way, Puigdemont looks like a captain that has abandoned his ship before his passengers. He was playing a simple game of chicken with Madrid, and he appears to have blinked first. Unless he's playing some kind of long game that we're unaware of.

[Gorgiewave]

Also, I unreservedly apologise to those who wanted to give me a chance, who saw potential in me, who thought I had turned a corner, in short, to those who, for a moment as brief and bright as the life of a shooting star, believed in me. Members and Premium Members, I'm sorry.

 

[Gorgiewave]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

I have to say that Puigdemont and his cohorts have totally mucked it up by heading to Brussels and refusing to return to Spain. They needed to present a resolute stance. They needed to stay in Catalonia and, if necessary, act as martyrs for their cause by being imprisoned. They needed to keep the momentum going, feed that momentum, let Spain make the mistakes. This way, Puigdemont looks like a captain that has abandoned his ship before his passengers. He was playing a simple game of chicken with Madrid, and he appears to have blinked first. Unless he's playing some kind of long game that we're unaware of.

 

[redjambo]

12 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Also, I unreservedly apologise to those who wanted to give me a chance, who saw potential in me, who thought I had turned a corner, in short, to those who, for a moment as brief and bright as the life of a shooting star, believed in me. Members and Premium Members, I'm sorry.

 

¡Teatrero!

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

¡Teatrero!

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

I have to say that Puigdemont and his cohorts have totally mucked it up by heading to Brussels and refusing to return to Spain. They needed to present a resolute stance. They needed to stay in Catalonia and, if necessary, act as martyrs for their cause by being imprisoned. They needed to keep the momentum going, feed that momentum, let Spain make the mistakes. This way, Puigdemont looks like a captain that has abandoned his ship before his passengers. He was playing a simple game of chicken with Madrid, and he appears to have blinked first. Unless he's playing some kind of long game that we're unaware of.

 

The problem is that if they are imprisoned they can't participate in the elections.  If a party's leadership and key candidates are jailed - which Madrid wishes to do - then it seriously undermines the capacity of that party to compete.  Then if they don't improve on their current position in the parliament Madrid will trumpet this as a victory.  Meanwhile, Puigdemont has said he is willing to accept the outcome of that election, knowing that it might significantly disadvantage him.  However, there is no guarantee that Madrid will accept the result if it benefits Catalan separatists.

 

Saying people should take part in elections, while threatening them with jail with no guarantee of a fair trial so that they can't take part in elections, is the kind of Orwellian politics more suited to a military junta than a democracy.  It's not really surprising that Puigdemont is trying to run the line that he can do more from exile than from prison, presumably in the hope of drumming up more support in the forthcoming elections.

 

The Catalans were quite right to seek to advance their independence, and the Spanish were quite right to say that wasn't for them.  Since that point the behaviour of both sides has been pretty poor.  But right now the Spanish are playing pretend democracy, and using the law for political ends, and all that will do is damage centrist politics and promote extremism in Spain and in other parts of Europe. 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

The problem is that if they are imprisoned they can't participate in the elections.  If a party's leadership and key candidates are jailed - which Madrid wishes to do - then it seriously undermines the capacity of that party to compete.  Then if they don't improve on their current position in the parliament Madrid will trumpet this as a victory.  Meanwhile, Puigdemont has said he is willing to accept the outcome of that election, knowing that it might significantly disadvantage him.  However, there is no guarantee that Madrid will accept the result if it benefits Catalan separatists.

 

Saying people should take part in elections, while threatening them with jail with no guarantee of a fair trial so that they can't take part in elections, is the kind of Orwellian politics more suited to a military junta than a democracy.  It's not really surprising that Puigdemont is trying to run the line that he can do more from exile than from prison, presumably in the hope of drumming up more support in the forthcoming elections.

 

The Catalans were quite right to seek to advance their independence, and the Spanish were quite right to say that wasn't for them.  Since that point the behaviour of both sides has been pretty poor.  But right now the Spanish are playing pretend democracy, and using the law for political ends, and all that will do is damage centrist politics and promote extremism in Spain and in other parts of Europe. 

 

In my opinion, even agreeing to participate in the elections was an admittance of failure. They declared independence .Why would they then subsequently agree to take part in federal government-imposed elections? That decision immediately turned that declaration into dust.

 

If the Spanish government had let the elections go ahead with pro--independence party leaders in jail, the image it would have conveyed would have been one of a third-world dictatorship. The Catalans could have put up alternative candidates with the emphasis on the fact that Madrid was doing everything in its power to subvert democracy by jailing potential candidates. I think it would have gained support to their side.

 

If they weren't ready to see it though, they shouldn't have declared independence. It's that simple. The Madrid government called their bluff.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

In my opinion, even agreeing to participate in the elections was an admittance of failure. They declared independence .Why would they then subsequently agree to take part in federal government-imposed elections? That decision immediately turned that declaration into dust.

 

If the Spanish government had let the elections go ahead with pro--independence party leaders in jail, the image it would have conveyed would have been one of a third-world dictatorship. The Catalans could have put up alternative candidates with the emphasis on the fact that Madrid was doing everything in its power to subvert democracy by jailing potential candidates. I think it would have gained support to their side.

 

If they weren't ready to see it though, they shouldn't have declared independence. It's that simple. The Madrid government called their bluff.

 

 

Are the first and second paragraphs above inconsistent from a strategic viewpoint?

 

It would make sense for the separatists to let the Spanish government portray itself as subverting democracy, but that strategy would not work unless the separatists participate in the elections.  If the separatists boycott the elections, all Madrid has to do is sit back, take no action against the separatist leaders, and then claim the result as a win, which it would inevitably be if separatist candidates did not take part.  Any subsequent political muddle could be blamed by Madrid on the unwillingness of the separatists to take part in a democratic exercise.

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Are the first and second paragraphs above inconsistent from a strategic viewpoint?

 

It would make sense for the separatists to let the Spanish government portray itself as subverting democracy, but that strategy would not work unless the separatists participate in the elections.  If the separatists boycott the elections, all Madrid has to do is sit back, take no action against the separatist leaders, and then claim the result as a win, which it would inevitably be if separatist candidates did not take part.  Any subsequent political muddle could be blamed by Madrid on the unwillingness of the separatists to take part in a democratic exercise.

 

First paragraph would be one strategy (no involvement in elections whatsoever; consistent with declaration of independence). Second paragraph would be an alternative strategy (involvement in elections; playing on federal government's interference with elections by jailing pro-independence candidates). The declaration of independence indicated that they were going to go with strategy number 1, but they obviously decided against that. Puigdemont's flight to Belgium shows that the second strategy isn't being followed either.

 

Essentially, if the first strategy had been chosen and followed through, it needed physical action, including popular protection of Catalonia's borders, taking over the airport etc. Nothing less would have worked. The current strategy is doomed to failure - even if Catalonian independence-supporting parties win the elections, we're back to square one, but Madrid have direct control of the situation as compared to before.

 

I see what you're saying but basically Puigdemont shouldn't have declared UDI if he was unwilling to back it up with action, imo. Basically the federal government has declared "you are going to play the game our way" and the independence faction have said "ok".

[Ulysses]

24 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Puigdemont's flight to Belgium shows that the second strategy isn't being followed either.

 

 

Unless the plan is for the leadership to stand (at the top of the closed lists) and campaign on the grounds that they have been de facto exiled by Madrid.  It's an approach that would play well with their base, though I doubt it would win many converts.  If I was a committed separatist I would probably operate on the logic that campaigning from exile is logistically easier than campaigning from prison.

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Unless the plan is for the leadership to stand (at the top of the closed lists) and campaign on the grounds that they have been de facto exiled by Madrid.  It's an approach that would play well with their base, though I doubt it would win many converts.  If I was a committed separatist I would probably operate on the logic that campaigning from exile is logistically easier than campaigning from prison.

 

I think in that case Madrid would just say "Well, it was their choice to leave Catalonia and go to Belgium". After all, if I have the timeline correct, he and his colleagues decided to go there before the relevant summons were issued.

 

And why Belgium? I don't get it. As a fellow member of the EU, extradition would be quite simple, I imagine, by means of a European Arrest Warrant.

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I think in that case Madrid would just say "Well, it was their choice to leave Catalonia and go to Belgium". After all, if I have the timeline correct, he and his colleagues decided to go there before the relevant summons were issued.

 

And why Belgium? I don't get it. As a fellow member of the EU, extradition would be quite simple, I imagine, by means of a European Arrest Warrant.

 

 

Separatists: "Of course we left before a summons was issued.  Otherwise we would have been arrested and jailed on politically inspired trumped-up charges without a fair trial."

 

Belgium is apparently the only EU member state that expressly claims the right under EU treaties to carry out examinations of asylum requests by individuals.  Most other EU member states are bound by an automatic assumption that all EU member states are safe countries of origin.  The Netherlands is also an exception, though AFAIK they don't have any Treaty protocols to support that.

 

If Madrid seeks to have the separatists arrested using a European Arrest Warrant, they will seek to prove that the charges are politically motivated, and as EU citizens they will have the right to have that tested in Belgian courts.

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

Belgium is apparently the only EU member state that expressly claims the right under EU treaties to carry out examinations of asylum requests by individuals.  Most other EU member states are bound by an automatic assumption that all EU member states are safe countries of origin.  The Netherlands is also an exception, though AFAIK they don't have any Treaty protocols to support that.

 

I was unaware of that. Thanks.

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I was unaware of that. Thanks.

 

I personally doubt that the Belgian courts would grant asylum, but it would be a major international diplomatic setback for Madrid if they did, whereas the separatists would have very little to lose.  Would it be worth the risk?  And on the other hand, if Madrid fails to seek their arrest, will that be read internationally and in Spain as an admission that what the separatists did wasn't unlawful?

 

Of course, the above would make more sense if Puigdemont et al have a clever strategy, but the evidence so far wouldn't support the notion that they have.

[deesidejambo]

Its either a clever long-term strategy by Puidgemont or a complete and utter shambolic cop-out.

 

At the moment it looks to me like a cop-out.    Time will tell  I guess.

[Gorgiewave]

Another eight Catalan officials in jail:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41850094

[Don Dan]

EU Arrest warrants issed. 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Another eight Catalan officials in jail:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41850094

 

Internment without trial it is, so.

 

That'll make for interesting hearings in the Belgian courts if the separatists in Belgium decide to seek asylum.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Internment without trial it is, so.

 

That'll make for interesting hearings in the Belgian courts if the separatists in Belgium decide to seek asylum.

 

They've been remanded in custody on several charges. It happens with lots of people accused of serious crimes.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

They've been remanded in custody on several charges. It happens with lots of people accused of serious crimes.

 

Internment without trial it is, so. 

 

If the Spanish government insists on behaving like a vengeful military junta instead of a modern democracy based on the rule of law, then they should not be surprised if modern democrats who support the rule of law begin to see Spain in a negative light.

 

The separatists have also claimed that the Catalan administration and the Spanish government reached an agreement on October 26th that the Spanish government would not go ahead with the suspension of devolved powers and that the Catalans would not make a formal independence declaration and would call regional elections immediately.  This would have been a significant climbdown by the separatists, but would have allowed regional elections to go ahead and create some breathing space for everybody.

 

But Rajoy walked away.  Why?  Catalan nationalists are likely to believe that he'd rather cause maximum humiliation for the separatists instead of resolving a political and constitutional crisis to Spain's advantage and with a minimum of fuss.  One way or the other he had an agreement that any reasonable observer would regard as a win - but the Spanish government decided to precipitate this crisis instead.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/02/spain-arresting-catalan-leaders-madrid-independence

[Gorgiewave]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Internment without trial it is, so. 

 

If the Spanish government insists on behaving like a vengeful military junta instead of a modern democracy based on the rule of law, then they should not be surprised if modern democrats who support the rule of law begin to see Spain in a negative light.

 

The separatists have also claimed that the Catalan administration and the Spanish government reached an agreement on October 26th that the Spanish government would not go ahead with the suspension of devolved powers and that the Catalans would not make a formal independence declaration and would call regional elections immediately.  This would have been a significant climbdown by the separatists, but would have allowed regional elections to go ahead and create some breathing space for everybody.

 

But Rajoy walked away.  Why?  Catalan nationalists are likely to believe that he'd rather cause maximum humiliation for the separatists instead of resolving a political and constitutional crisis to Spain's advantage and with a minimum of fuss.  One way or the other he had an agreement that any reasonable observer would regard as a win - but the Spanish government decided to precipitate this crisis instead.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/02/spain-arresting-catalan-leaders-madrid-independence

 

Here is the judge's ruling explaining why they've been remanded in custody: i) there is a prima facie case that they have committed crimes; ii) the risk of them absconding; iii) the risk of them obstructing justice; iv) the risk of them committing more crimes; v) the seriousness of the crimes of which they are accused.

 

For those who are interested and can understand Spanish, here's the ruling in full:

 

https://ep00.epimg.net/descargables/2017/11/02/206acc57dbcb5fb428a2e881369b64b7.pdf

[Ulysses]

24 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Here is the judge's ruling explaining why they've been remanded in custody: i) there is a prima facie case that they have committed crimes; ii) the risk of them absconding; iii) the risk of them obstructing justice; iv) the risk of them committing more crimes; v) the seriousness of the crimes of which they are accused.

 

For those who are interested and can understand Spanish, here's the ruling in full:

 

https://ep00.epimg.net/descargables/2017/11/02/206acc57dbcb5fb428a2e881369b64b7.pdf

 

There are plenty of people who are not remanded in custody even when there is a prima facie case that they have committed crimes.  If the accused wished to abscond they could already have done so; several of their separatist colleagues took the opportunity to abscond, but they presented themselves at court when they had the opportunity to avoid doing so, which is not the behaviour of a flight risk.  There is no risk of them obstructing justice that is ameliorated by their being remanded in custody.  There is no risk of them committing any further act that Madrid might consider a crime because (i) Madrid has already prevented that risk by taking over the functions of the regional government and (ii) the leader of their political group has accepted the legitimacy of the elections called by the Spanish.  The crimes of which they are accused are not serious enough to warrant remand, because they present no danger to individuals or the public in general.

 

The only value of remanding these people in custody is to prevent the leadership of the separatists from participating properly in the elections. Rajoy had a deal which amounted to a win.  Instead of using that deal to carry out the duties of his office by restoring order and reducing the political temperature he is opening himself to accusations of using the institutions of the Spanish state to try to rig the vote result.  That might give him a short-term gain, but it runs the risk of undermining Spanish institutions and of damaging the credibility of the political centre in Spain and elsewhere in Europe.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Spain right now..

[Gorgiewave]

20 minutes ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Spain right now..

No, it's only destructive stirrers who are against what the Spanish government has done. Most people in Catalonia and in Spain in general support them.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

If most people in Catalonia support Spain then why did the shitebags not allow the referendum?