Catalonia referendum

[redjambo]

???????????.   Just saying. 

 

I think you'd have a similar view to mine - I don't have a problem with it either.  I think Gorgiewave is saying it's unacceptable, which must presumably mean it's something he's never done.

 

?????!

[Ulysses]

You wouldn't want people finding out Dublin is really called Blackpool would ye!

 

 

It is, though.  When it's not the town of the hurdled ford.   

 

I note, however, that the Irish Constitution does not provide for a legal definition of how to pronounce "Dublin".  That's a pity, because if it did the Irish government could deploy riot police to fire plastic bullets at old ladies who mispronounced it, and then we could have a thread on JKB on which Gorgiewave and Sten Guns could get their jollies telling us all why this was a good thing. 

[Ulysses]

?????!

 

Just spent a week in Greece, and was starting to get the hang of the alphabet just as it was time to head home. 

[Boris]

Nigel Farage gives both barrels to Mr Juncker and the EU over Catalonia and Brexit

 

 

Heartening to know he would have been on the side of the Orgreave miners then!

[redjambo]

Just spent a week in Greece, and was starting to get the hang of the alphabet just as it was time to head home. 

 

It's quite a simple alphabet (with one or two letter combinations to negotiate), and a fascinating language, in no small part because so many of our words have Greek origins. My last lassie was Greek, and for all the time I spent with her and in Greece as a result, my ability to speak and understand Greek is shockingly bad. I guess it's true about not being able to teach an old dog new tricks...

[Francis Albert]

I don't have a real problem with that. Generally I think it's a wee bit silly that the English language has used slight variants on the real names of countries, regions and cities etc., particularly where the other language uses Roman characters and the place name isn't difficult to pronounce. It shows a modicum of respect for the other country to use the same name they do, a bit more internationalism.

 

As an example, I have been pleased to see Lyons and Marseilles move back to the proper Lyon and Marseille over time. Peking to Beijing is another example.Likewise the move towards using Thessaloniki rather than the anglicized Salonica and Thessalonica.

 

Anyway, for a more complete list of English exonyms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms

i like the fact that edinburgh has so many different names in different languages. Seems more of a compliment to the status of the city than an insult.

[doctor jambo]

It is, though.  When it's not the town of the hurdled ford.   

 

I note, however, that the Irish Constitution does not provide for a legal definition of how to pronounce "Dublin".  That's a pity, because if it did the Irish government could deploy riot police to fire plastic bullets at old ladies who mispronounced it, and then we could have a thread on JKB on which Gorgiewave and Sten Guns could get their jollies telling us all why this was a good thing. 

I don't think anyone is saying its a good thing

THe problem is that various peoples are attempting to redraw maps based on their own timescales and definitions of "state" and "nation".

ISIS have done similar and include much of Spain in their "caliphate" with some historical accuracy.

Argentina do the same with the Falklands,

Spain with Gibraltar

Sinn Fein with Ireland

Russia with, well, frankly half of eastern Europe not included in its own annexation already

And that's before the middle eastern chicanery about Palestine, Kurdistan and so on

Sure you could have plebiscites in all of these territories - but then what?

Redo it when there is population change?

Or do you fracture all countries to a fixed position in time to be decided by the UN and militarily enforce it?

MOst countries are composed of smaller, formerly sovereign states that were swallowed into a larger state- either by marriage, treaty or conquest.

It baffles me that in the age when we are all genetic mongrels that we would have such a situation.

Allowing a vote accedes a degree of legitimacy to the claims.

Whilst I do not agree with whacking voters, I do have some sympathy for the Spanish government trying to stop the graded cessation of part of its country

In Scotland devolution led inexorably to independence voting

Those in power want more power and more territory to wield it over

Democracy is a dangerous thing

[Gorgiewave]

It's like people referring to Sevilla, I s'pose. 

 

Also cretinous. Eire.

[doctor jambo]

Also cretinous. Eire.

Alba?

 

It is the want of nationalists to revert to languages they don't speak to harken back to their chosen borders.

When Scotland started putting Gaelic on all the signs , to be read by loads of people with no Gaelic heritage, that was a bit odd. Reclaiming a period in time that was brief, and gone.

Anyone with any smattering of education can drive down to Penrith and see all the Norse extraction and its interesting to point this out , without the need to have it in pure viking

[Disser Pointon]

Heading to Madrid for 5 days the week after next, hoping it all settles down a bit by then although the worst of it seems to be in Barcelona.

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Thunderstruck]

I don't think anyone is saying its a good thing

THe problem is that various peoples are attempting to redraw maps based on their own timescales and definitions of "state" and "nation".

ISIS have done similar and include much of Spain in their "caliphate" with some historical accuracy.

Argentina do the same with the Falklands,

Spain with Gibraltar

Sinn Fein with Ireland

Russia with, well, frankly half of eastern Europe not included in its own annexation already

And that's before the middle eastern chicanery about Palestine, Kurdistan and so on

Sure you could have plebiscites in all of these territories - but then what?

Redo it when there is population change?

Or do you fracture all countries to a fixed position in time to be decided by the UN and militarily enforce it?

MOst countries are composed of smaller, formerly sovereign states that were swallowed into a larger state- either by marriage, treaty or conquest.

It baffles me that in the age when we are all genetic mongrels that we would have such a situation.

Allowing a vote accedes a degree of legitimacy to the claims.

Whilst I do not agree with whacking voters, I do have some sympathy for the Spanish government trying to stop the graded cessation of part of its country

In Scotland devolution led inexorably to independence voting

Those in power want more power and more territory to wield it over

Democracy is a dangerous thing

Indeed. Freedom for Dalriada.

[redjambo]

Also cretinous. Eire.

 

Absolutely. It's ?ire.

[Unknown user]

Juncker?s ?State of the Union? speech of 13 September this year is worthy of a close read. A ?United States of Europe? is the aim.

I'm not getting how you're seeing increasing influence on day to day running from that. I don't believe the EU has any ambition to do that, they have more then enough to deal with as it is

[doctor jambo]

Indeed. Freedom for Dalriada.

I'm going for the pre-Mcalpine 

I'm going for "Pictland"

 

With Ireland being re-named Scotland,

And Greece reduced back to its Pre- Philip of Macedon city states (I'd love to see Sparta reborn if nothing else)

Troy being re-established too on the Turkish coast.

 

 

Or we could do what happened in North America - apologise to the natives, but basically shrug and tell them to live with it, that's how it is now.

 

Would be interesting to reverse the partition of India which was not too long ago, forcibly re-unify Pakistan, Bangladesh and India,

then give the whole shebang back to the re-born British Empire, along with the temporary rebirth of "Aborigine land"

[Unknown user]

The world's borders have done nothing but change since we invented them, I don't get why people are offended by it now

[doctor jambo]

The world's borders have done nothing but change since we invented them, I don't get why people are offended by it now

Because the current European borders have given us 70 years of stability and freedom from large scale conflict on this continent?

Apart from some minor terrorism (ETA, IRA and so on) Europe is no longer grappling constantly with identity strife and war as European "races" grab territories

- remember that such things kicked off WW2 as the Germans demanded, then invaded the Sudetenland because it was "German",

We have become lazy in our peace, nationalism at its endpoint often leads to war

I find the anchoring of oneself at a fixed and often arbitrary point in time to suit ones own sense of "identity" to be bizarre.

I was born in Scotland ( previously know as dalriada, Pictland, Scotia, Alba and so on and so forth) with an English father of Basque heritage, and  a Scottish mother of Irish and Icelandic heritage.

I am firmly anchored in the here and now and do not seek to blame my own inadequacies on suppression of my "race" by anyone - because frankly I'm a genetic cocktail who if I tried to identify where I "belong" the simple answer is the borders I was born within, which if I am unhappy with can attempt to make better

[SwindonJambo]

Heading to Madrid for 5 days the week after next, hoping it all settles down a bit by then although the worst of it seems to be in Barcelona.

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

It's fine.  I'm just back from 3 nights there.  Very relaxed with zero tension and the weather's still very warm. I went on a fabulously entertaining and informative walking tour there.  Prior to that I was in Barca.  I caught the coach to Madrid last Thursday morning and I couldn't have timed that any better.  It was fairly relaxed there too, though tensions were building just as I left.  Catalan flags flying everywhere with gatherings of students waving flags.

[Disser Pointon]

It's fine.  I'm just back from 3 nights there.  Very relaxed with zero tension and the weather's still very warm. I went on a fabulously entertaining and informative walking tour there.  Prior to that I was in Barca.  I caught the coach to Madrid last Thursday morning and I couldn't have timed that any better.  It was fairly relaxed there too, though tensions were building just as I left.  Catalan flags flying everywhere with gatherings of students waving flags.

Cheers for that!

[Gorgiewave]

Alba?

 

It is the want of nationalists to revert to languages they don't speak to harken back to their chosen borders.

When Scotland started putting Gaelic on all the signs , to be read by loads of people with no Gaelic heritage, that was a bit odd. Reclaiming a period in time that was brief, and gone.

Anyone with any smattering of education can drive down to Penrith and see all the Norse extraction and its interesting to point this out , without the need to have it in pure viking

Alba for Gaelic speakers. Otherwise, it's North Britain.

[doctor jambo]

Alba for Gaelic speakers. Otherwise, it's North Britain.

So are we re-drawing national lines to Roman Empire times? Italy will be thrilled

[redjambo]

So are we re-drawing national lines to Roman Empire times? Italy will be thrilled

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Britain

[Francis Albert]

Because of its current set up there is no way that Spain would accede to losing its most affluent area, then seeing open borders and Schengen which would prevent Spain from strangling the life out of catalonia.

What you may see then is the break away of autonomous city states- the wealthy ones, and possibly the rebirth of the Italian North / south divide

Then the Basque region

Then any other wealthy area that would want to turn itself into a wealthy tax haven

 

I am amazed at the socialists on here in support of basically a rich area jettisoning its poor neighbours.

catalonia would rapidly become a new Luxembourg. or Monaco.

The Marxist Guardian columnist Paul Mason effusively welcomes the Catalonian independence movement as a modern, cosmopolitan nationalism. I suppose that is one way of describing  escaping from subsidising your poorer neighbours, which is certainly one of the motivations for Catalan independence.  At least Scottish nationalists, despite their denial, know in their hearts that independence would at least in the short to medium term make Scotland poorer, however much the SNP may pretend otherwise. I have sympathy for the emotional appeal of becoming "a nation once more"  (or even in the Catalan case of just becoming a nation) but not for the motivation of just getting even richer.

 

In time, especially if we have a few years of  a Corbyn/McDonnell government, I can foresee a future London mayor having a try at a London independence referendum.

[doctor jambo]

The Marxist Guardian columnist Paul Mason effusively welcomes the Catalonian independence movement as a modern, cosmopolitan nationalism. I suppose that is one way of describing  escaping from subsidising your poorer neighbours, which is certainly one of the motivations for Catalan independence.  At least Scottish nationalists, despite their denial, know in their hearts that independence would at least in the short to medium term make Scotland poorer, however much the SNP may pretend otherwise. I have sympathy for the emotional appeal of becoming "a nation once more"  (or even in the Catalan case of just becoming a nation) but not for the motivation of just getting even richer.

 

In time, especially if we have a few years of  a Corbyn/McDonnell government, I can foresee a future London mayor having a try at a London independence referendum.

Shetland First

[redjambo]

The Marxist Guardian columnist Paul Mason effusively welcomes the Catalonian independence movement as a modern, cosmopolitan nationalism. I suppose that is one way of describing  escaping from subsidising your poorer neighbours, which is certainly one of the motivations for Catalan independence.  At least Scottish nationalists, despite their denial, know in their hearts that independence would at least in the short to medium term make Scotland poorer, however much the SNP may pretend otherwise. I have sympathy for the emotional appeal of becoming "a nation once more"  (or even in the Catalan case of just becoming a nation) but not for the motivation of just getting even richer.

 

In time, especially if we have a few years of  a Corbyn/McDonnell government, I can foresee a future London mayor having a try at a London independence referendum.

 

After the Brexit results, I was both amused by and interested in the tongue-in-cheek proposal to create Scotlond, an amalgam of Scotland and London (and presumably any other areas that voted anti-Brexit). I actually think we would do well together.

[Boris]

Because the current European borders have given us 70 years of stability and freedom from large scale conflict on this continent?

Apart from some minor terrorism (ETA, IRA and so on) Europe is no longer grappling constantly with identity strife and war as European "races" grab territories

- remember that such things kicked off WW2 as the Germans demanded, then invaded the Sudetenland because it was "German",

We have become lazy in our peace, nationalism at its endpoint often leads to war

I find the anchoring of oneself at a fixed and often arbitrary point in time to suit ones own sense of "identity" to be bizarre.

I was born in Scotland ( previously know as dalriada, Pictland, Scotia, Alba and so on and so forth) with an English father of Basque heritage, and  a Scottish mother of Irish and Icelandic heritage.

I am firmly anchored in the here and now and do not seek to blame my own inadequacies on suppression of my "race" by anyone - because frankly I'm a genetic cocktail who if I tried to identify where I "belong" the simple answer is the borders I was born within, which if I am unhappy with can attempt to make better

 

Stability was also helped by having two powerful camps, ideologically opposed, offering MAD.

 

Note since the collapse of Soviet style rule in Eastern Europe how the old nationalisms have risen.  And it's important to distinguish between that style of Nationalism that led to the Balkans war, and the type put forth in democratic ways in Scotland, Wales and Catalonia.

 

Perhaps, in its centenary year (!), we should resolve to unite the peoples of all lands and sing the internationale!

 

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Still very much live on the ground over there, though the good ole BBC has dropped it as a story already. The internet fairly exposes the msm as agenda driven.

[doctor jambo]

Stability was also helped by having two powerful camps, ideologically opposed, offering MAD.

 

Note since the collapse of Soviet style rule in Eastern Europe how the old nationalisms have risen.  And it's important to distinguish between that style of Nationalism that led to the Balkans war, and the type put forth in democratic ways in Scotland, Wales and Catalonia.

 

Perhaps, in its centenary year (!), we should resolve to unite the peoples of all lands and sing the internationale!

 

True,

as I said, we have become complacent in our peace

The only differentiation I would apply between the democratic nationalism and the vociferous aggressive nationalism is the passivity of the populace ( and good old gun control)

[redjambo]

Still very much live on the ground over there, though the good ole BBC has dropped it as a story already. The internet fairly exposes the msm as agenda driven.

 

If you're using the BBC website, the World News page is much better than the UK one and is still running the story. They tend to get very parochial with the local UK one.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Does anyone think this clown in Catalonia has a mandate to declare UDI, incidentally?

[Boris]

Does anyone think this clown in Catalonia has a mandate to declare UDI, incidentally?

 

Personally, no.  I don't think he has.

[doctor jambo]

Am I the only one who thinks that if Barcelona were a crap football team then the world would really not give a damn?

[Unknown user]

Because the current European borders have given us 70 years of stability and freedom from large scale conflict on this continent?

maybe you should look up how many European borders have changed in the last 70 years

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Am I the only one who thinks that if Barcelona were a crap football team then the world would really not give a damn?

I think it gets more interest in Scotland because the Nats see the Catalans as being in the same boat as them.

 

Bless.

[doctor jambo]

maybe you should look up how many European borders have changed in the last 70 years

Maybe you should look up how many people have lost their lives over nationalist territorial conflicts in Europe

I'm arguing for stability- you are the one arguing for alterations of borders based on the demands of small pockets of people based on nationalistic/racial ideology and asking why people get so upset by border change......

you cannot presume that the demands of a "race" to seize land and assets from another to establish "homeland" will not erupt into violence

[Gorgiewave]

NATO. The guarantor of peace in Europe. See Balkans. EU hopeless. NATO (mainly UK and her daughter country, the USA) to the fore. Preventing further genocide criticised by Alex Salmond as unpardonable folly. Not that he thought it. It's because he didn't care and only wanted to harm the UK.

[Unknown user]

Maybe you should look up how many people have lost their lives over nationalist territorial conflicts in Europe

I'm arguing for stability- you are the one arguing for alterations of borders based on the demands of small pockets of people based on nationalistic/racial ideology and asking why people get so upset by border change......

you cannot presume that the demands of a "race" to seize land and assets from another to establish "homeland" will not erupt into violence

You're tying yourself up in knots - you said the current borders had kept Europe stable for the last 70 years. I'm saying there have been LOADS of border changes in Europe in that time, from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to Slovakia, Czech Republic and Serbia. Christ, even Germany! Your argument simply doesn't stand up.

[Toggie88]

"Unlikely to acknowledge"??? There would be no international pressure on Spain if Catalonia declared UDI on the basis of this referendum, except for some pressure to oppose it. And there would be no recognition of the new Catalonian state. Well maybe by North Korea just for the hell of it.

 

This is fantasy even exceeding the Scottish Government's pathetic attempts to whip up support from EU members on the basis that we voted against Brexit.

I wasn?t saying that there would be. I was just saying that in International Law terms, this is how they - Catalonia - could become independent. I even acknowledged it was unlikely.

 

Chillax fella.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocco_Jambo]

A lot. What exactly do you think police forces are for?

You think police forces create the definition of what illegal means? Aye ok.

[yabadabadoo1874again]

40% plus turnout with vicious threats of beatings is incredible. Old mums, grandads, students...firemen stepping up...to protect

 

Catalans shat it like the Scottish did from the BritNats?...not a chance...

[redjambo]

Carles Puigdemont has just stated to the BBC that Catalonia will declare independence from Spain at the end of this week or the beginning of next.

 

Info buried in here:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

[doctor jambo]

Carles Puigdemont has just stated to the BBC that Catalonia will declare independence from Spain at the end of this week or the beginning of next.

 

Info buried in here:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

Another idiot trying to make himself a hero. This will end messily, with joe bloggs in the street paying for this power grab. Won't be him being clubbed

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Another idiot trying to make himself a hero. This will end messily, with joe bloggs in the street paying for this power grab. Won't be him being clubbed

As much as the police behaviour is scandalous, the Catalan government have been so irresponsible in their handling of this. Some of them will end up in prison.

[CJGJ]

The King of Spain makes a total mess in his speech to the nation

 

As a man who should be giving leadership he has simply taken sides and not helped one little bit...a step back from his father.

 

He could take a lesson from our own Queen in just what to say and when

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Carles Puigdemont has just stated to the BBC that Catalonia will declare independence from Spain at the end of this week or the beginning of next.

 

Info buried in here:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

A politician who deserves a million of these.

 

[JamboX2]

Still very much live on the ground over there, though the good ole BBC has dropped it as a story already. The internet fairly exposes the msm as agenda driven.

2nd story on the 10pm news. Hardly dropped.

[redjambo]

Another idiot trying to make himself a hero. This will end messily, with joe bloggs in the street paying for this power grab. Won't be him being clubbed

 

You and I don't share the same politics, DJ, but we share the same prognosis. The Spanish government will feel that they have no option but to send in the military (they may even send it in before the UDI to try and pre-empt Catalan defence) and the Catalans, their determination fixed by the Spanish government's pronouncements, the actions of the federal police and now the contents of the King's speech, will put up one heck of a fight (and it won't be peaceful resistance this time). The result of that clash will almost inevitably be Spanish government victory, but many heads will indeed be clubbed in the process and the fall-out from this will last a long time, perhaps even resulting in a Basque ETA-type situation.

[Francis Albert]

The King of Spain makes a total mess in his speech to the nation

 

As a man who should be giving leadership he has simply taken sides and not helped one little bit...a step back from his father.

 

He could take a lesson from our own Queen in just what to say and when

Well we've have to wait until Scotland's First Minister commits to declaring UDI after an illegal referendum in which most Scots don't vote to see what our own Queen's reaction would be.

[Gorgiewave]

The King of Spain makes a total mess in his speech to the nation

 

As a man who should be giving leadership he has simply taken sides and not helped one little bit...a step back from his father.

 

He could take a lesson from our own Queen in just what to say and when

 

It's a different style of monarchy. The other serious threat to the current Constitutional order was an attempted coup d'etat in 1981 led by Civil Guards and backed by the army. The then king appeared on TV in his Captain General's (i.e., commander-in-chief) uniform and ordered the soldiers back to their barracks and to defend the Constitution. This moment is still hugely popular and famous. Our queen wouldn't do that but it, as I say, a different monarchy.

 

[Ulysses]

I don't think anyone is saying its a good thing

 

[other stuff edited out]

 

 

Er, doc, if you think that the need to "draw the line somewhere" is any justification for baton-charging grannies and firing plastic bullets at unarmed civilians you probably need a re-think.  A big, long re-think.

[Ulysses]

Also cretinous. Eire.

 

Also? 

 

Who said that saying "Sevilla" was the work of a cretin?  I hope you're not suggesting that I did.  I merely pointed out that posting "Sevilla" or "Catalunya" seem to be pretty much on a par with each other.