Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[The Real Maroonblood]

23 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Just as long as they are not dropped near Kilwinning for oor Gillian to plant any Glesga kisses. Compo claims could be exorbitant. Her lawyer comes highly recommended mind you.

 

👍

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Not shocked. I bet you would welcome the Taliban in if they signed up for ref2. SNP and Greens could form a three party coalition. Would be fun to see wee Harvie in a rainbow turban. 

I don't want ref2 thanks

[Cade]

Also announced as Trade Envoys:

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson (DUP leader); Cameroon

Kate Hoey (Bampot); Ghana

Fluffy Mundell (Tory); New Zealand

Marco Longhi (Who thinks the National Trust is a marxist movement); Brazil

Felicity Buchan (Tory MP for Kensington, who ran on a ticket of "justice for Grenfell" but then who voted against implementing the Grenfell inquiry recommendations); Iceland&Norway

 

Sit back and watch the orders come flying in.

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

Also announced as Trade Envoys:

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson (DUP leader); Cameroon

Kate Hoey (Bampot); Ghana

Fluffy Mundell (Tory); New Zealand

Marco Longhi (Who thinks the National Trust is a marxist movement); Brazil

Felicity Buchan (Tory MP for Kensington, who ran on a ticket of "justice for Grenfell" but then who voted against implementing the Grenfell inquiry recommendations); Iceland&Norway

 

Sit back and watch the orders come flying in.

Is that a genuine thing?

 

If so 😂

[WorldChampions1902]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

UK announces its new Trade Envoy to Australia.

 

Ian Botham.

 

Yes, that Ian Botham. The cricketer.

 

Whit???

 

The Ian Botham that said quote, “Aussies are big and empty. Just like their country”?

 

Need to get that painted on the side of the newly-liveried GB branded aircraft that will take him to Oz.
 

[Cade]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Is that a genuine thing?

 

If so 😂

 

All 100% true

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Cade

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

 

All 100% true

 

 

To be fair I reckon Botham will probably be a more effective trade envoy than former governor General fluffy

[RobboM]

We've reached a point where The Thick of It should be re-classified from satirical comedy to docu-drama

[Cade]

Fruit&veg farmers: We have no staff, produce is rotting in the fields.

Slaughterhouses: We have no staff, we can't process meat fast enough.

Meat farmers: We're backed up because of the slaughterhouses. We can't sell our stock.

Dairy farmers: We have no staff, milk is going to waste.

Toy shops: We have no stock, we can't get deliveries, xmas is ruined.

Supermarkets: We have empty shelves, we can't get deliveries.

Hauliers: We have no staff, we can't make deliveries.

A government spokesperson said:
“The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system. Employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad”.

[Konrad von Carstein]

36 minutes ago, Cade said:

Fruit&veg farmers: We have no staff, produce is rotting in the fields.

Slaughterhouses: We have no staff, we can't process meat fast enough.

Meat farmers: We're backed up because of the slaughterhouses. We can't sell our stock.

Dairy farmers: We have no staff, milk is going to waste.

Toy shops: We have no stock, we can't get deliveries, xmas is ruined.

Supermarkets: We have empty shelves, we can't get deliveries.

Hauliers: We have no staff, we can't make deliveries.

A government spokesperson said:
“The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system. Employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad”.

Irony is that we always has control of immigration... But multiple goverments  chose not to impose it.

[Ked]

Is there not 1.6 million unemployed in the UK?

42 minutes ago, Cade said:

Fruit&veg farmers: We have no staff, produce is rotting in the fields.

Slaughterhouses: We have no staff, we can't process meat fast enough.

Meat farmers: We're backed up because of the slaughterhouses. We can't sell our stock.

Dairy farmers: We have no staff, milk is going to waste.

Toy shops: We have no stock, we can't get deliveries, xmas is ruined.

Supermarkets: We have empty shelves, we can't get deliveries.

Hauliers: We have no staff, we can't make deliveries.

A government spokesperson said:
“The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system. Employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad”.

 

[Boof]

On 23/08/2021 at 16:20, WorldChampions1902 said:

Whit???

 

The Ian Botham that said quote, “Aussies are big and empty. Just like their country”?

 

Need to get that painted on the side of the newly-liveried GB branded aircraft that will take him to Oz.
 

 

Eh???

The same Ian Botham that said

"that he is looking forward to spending time in the second chamber “when they are debating something I know about – like sport or the countryside. Not much point if it’s a trade deal with Japan”?"

Source: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/ian-botham-trade-envoy-australia-boris-johnson-lost-plot-1166008

 

[WorldChampions1902]

45 minutes ago, Ked said:

Is there not 1.6 million unemployed in the UK?

 

Yup. Your point is ……..??

[WorldChampions1902]

[Ked]

Just now, WorldChampions1902 said:

Yup. Your point is ……..??

Theres a workforce shortage.

Why is there unemplpyment?

[WorldChampions1902]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

Theres a workforce shortage.

Why is there unemplpyment?

It’s nothing new. Unfortunately, many Leavers had a view that forcing down immigration would markedly reduce U.K. unemployment.
Yet another epic fail.

Project Reality bites again.

More to come.

Watch this space.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Fruit&veg farmers: We have no staff, produce is rotting in the fields.

Slaughterhouses: We have no staff, we can't process meat fast enough.

Meat farmers: We're backed up because of the slaughterhouses. We can't sell our stock.

Dairy farmers: We have no staff, milk is going to waste.

Toy shops: We have no stock, we can't get deliveries, xmas is ruined.

Supermarkets: We have empty shelves, we can't get deliveries.

Hauliers: We have no staff, we can't make deliveries.

A government spokesperson said:
“The British people repeatedly voted to end free movement and take back control of our immigration system. Employers should invest in our domestic workforce instead of relying on labour from abroad”.

Decent description of  what things have come to now.  👍   

 

An irony is that  the government position about industry having being reliant on cheap foreign labour for decades is valid - yet neither Labour or Conservative governments did anything to change that reliance.   In fact, they trumpeted the achievement of having such an efficient  economy which delivered a wide range of relatively cheap goods for the consumer - an example of the free market working for the benefit of everyone.  Never mind  if Romanian  lorry drivers or Polish plumbers  are on low wages over here .....  never mind if if your Wimbledon strawberries were picked by  Spaniards  working long hours in our fields .......   just marvel at the amazing range of stuff in Tesco at low prices.

 

So much for their   "Prepare for Brexit" campaign.        

 

The current situation seems to indicate that the current government is unable/unwilling to intervene in a substantial way to help resolve any of the issues which are causing such disruption to supply chains.    If media reports are to be believed, they  seem to  think that letting HGV drivers drive for longer before taking a break ....... and making the vehicles 2m longer ...... will do the trick.

 

       

[Ked]

45 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

It’s nothing new. Unfortunately, many Leavers had a view that forcing down immigration would markedly reduce U.K. unemployment.
Yet another epic fail.

Project Reality bites again.

More to come.

Watch this space.

Whether they did or not there are 1.6 million unemployed.

There is a shortage of workforce.

Correct me if wrong but 1.6  million unemployed does not include those unable to work.

There is no excuse for claiming unemployment benefit?

There cannot be a labour shortage by definition unless that labouf shortage exceeds 1.6 million.

 

[Lone Striker]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

Whether they did or not there are 1.6 million unemployed.

There is a shortage of workforce.

Correct me if wrong but 1.6  million unemployed does not include those unable to work.

There is no excuse for claiming unemployment benefit?

There cannot be a labour shortage by definition unless that labouf shortage exceeds 1.6 million.

 

Even if 100k unemployed folk applied for vacant HGV jobs, it would take many months for those with no certifications or experience to become productive on the roads driving a vehicle.  There's already a  queue at the HGV driver training centres to get training and tests.  Despite public perception,  it's a high pressure job, long hours, unhealthy lifestyle.  

 

 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

Even if 100k unemployed folk applied for vacant HGV jobs, it would take many months for those with no certifications or experience to become productive on the roads driving a vehicle.  There's already a  queue at the HGV driver training centres to get training and tests.  Despite public perception,  it's a high pressure job, long hours, unhealthy lifestyle.  

 

 

HGV driver shortage is Europe wide problem.

And up until recently was poorly paid.

So agree with much of your post.

Theres a lot of other vacancies listed.

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Yup. Your point is ……..??

It is a fair point. Get the lazy *******s working.

[The Mighty Thor]

7 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Decent description of  what things have come to now.  👍   

 

The current situation seems to indicate that the current government is unable/unwilling to intervene in a substantial way to help resolve any of the issues which are causing such disruption to supply chains.    If media reports are to be believed, they  seem to  think that letting HGV drivers drive for longer before taking a break ....... and making the vehicles 2m longer ...... will do the trick.

 

       

The current government will say whatever they need to say to get those fine folks that bought their bullshit hook line and sinker to keep voting for them. 

The full effect of Brexit is still to be felt. 

[Cade]

So your idea is to force people to do a certain job, whether they want to or not?

You have no idea if the 1.6million unemployed people are able to do the jobs which have staff shortages.

They may be unwilling or unable to relocate closer to those jobs.
How many of them are full time carers looking after family? How many are single parent families that would have to fork out for expensive childcare if they went to work, eating most of their income and making work not worth the hassle?

Many of the jobs are seasonal, so what happens once the season ends?

Many of the jobs require expensive and time intensive training. 

Some people will simply be unwilling to work those jobs.

Since we don't live in the USSR circa 1960, you cannot simply allocate people into a certain job against their will.

The only way to entice people into these jobs is by offering higher wages.

The cost of which is then passed on through the supply chain all the way to the customer.

But it takes time for each link in the chain to bump their prices up.

During this process many of the smaller links in the chain will go bust.
It's costing them more to buy things and they can't sell them on at a higher price yet as their customers in the next link in the chain will not accept it. So they go bust.

Which just dumps more people back into unemployment.

Then at the end of the chain, the consumer is faced with higher prices, so demand for that product falls off.

So less is bought by each link in the chain, forcing more companies out of business.

OR if customers are willing to pay higher prices, this then leads to inflation.
The prices of all these things goes up, meaning the higher wages are simply offset by the higher prices.
So you have to bump wages up again, so the cycle of inflation continues.

This is where we were in the 1970s.
So the central bank raises interest rates to discourage borrowing and encourage saving, in an attempt to stop people spending, so prices come back down.
So again, demand falls as people aren't spending and we end up right back at companies going bust.

 

See this economics stuff? It's complicated.

 

[WorldChampions1902]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

It is a fair point. Get the lazy *******s working.

I agree with the principle but HOW?? And as this is a thread about Brexit, there is absolutely NO reason to to leave the EU to make that happen. For most of my lifetime, the U.K. has had job vacancies whilst large numbers claimed Unemployment Benefit. Brexit isn’t the solution to that problem and never was.

[WorldChampions1902]

#Cade outstanding post BTW.
 

[Unknown user]

10 hours ago, Ked said:

HGV driver shortage is Europe wide problem.

And up until recently was poorly paid.

So agree with much of your post.

Theres a lot of other vacancies listed.

 

Yet European supermarket shelves are full.

 

The UK has made itself really uncompetitive for attracting HGV drivers in an HGV driver shortage.

[Ked]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Yet European supermarket shelves are full.

 

The UK has made itself really uncompetitive for attracting HGV drivers in an HGV driver shortage.

Agreed.

 

[Ked]

27 minutes ago, Cade said:

So your idea is to force people to do a certain job, whether they want to or not?

You have no idea if the 1.6million unemployed people are able to do the jobs which have staff shortages.

They may be unwilling or unable to relocate closer to those jobs.
How many of them are full time carers looking after family? How many are single parent families that would have to fork out for expensive childcare if they went to work, eating most of their income and making work not worth the hassle?

Many of the jobs are seasonal, so what happens once the season ends?

Many of the jobs require expensive and time intensive training. 

Some people will simply be unwilling to work those jobs.

Since we don't live in the USSR circa 1960, you cannot simply allocate people into a certain job against their will.

The only way to entice people into these jobs is by offering higher wages.

The cost of which is then passed on through the supply chain all the way to the customer.

But it takes time for each link in the chain to bump their prices up.

During this process many of the smaller links in the chain will go bust.
It's costing them more to buy things and they can't sell them on at a higher price yet as their customers in the next link in the chain will not accept it. So they go bust.

Which just dumps more people back into unemployment.

Then at the end of the chain, the consumer is faced with higher prices, so demand for that product falls off.

So less is bought by each link in the chain, forcing more companies out of business.

OR if customers are willing to pay higher prices, this then leads to inflation.
The prices of all these things goes up, meaning the higher wages are simply offset by the higher prices.
So you have to bump wages up again, so the cycle of inflation continues.

This is where we were in the 1970s.
So the central bank raises interest rates to discourage borrowing and encourage saving, in an attempt to stop people spending, so prices come back down.
So again, demand falls as people aren't spending and we end up right back at companies going bust.

 

See this economics stuff? It's complicated.

 

So are you saying exploitation of cheap Labour from other countries is the answer?

Also I'm not sure how the benefit system works these days but if unfit to work you are not classed as unemployed.

When there are no jobs then it's right we have a benefits system 

When there are jobs then imo you should work.

Too many people think life owes them a living.There are many people who I know who came here to work.

Some of whom work long hours for duff wages and pay Edinburgh rents.

Not all but a lot claiming dole need to take a leaf out of their books.

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Ked said:

So are you saying exploitation of cheap Labour from other countries is the answer?

Also I'm not sure how the benefit system works these days but if unfit to work you are not classed as unemployed.

When there are no jobs then it's right we have a benefits system 

When there are jobs then imo you should work.

Too many people think life owes them a living.There are many people who I know who came here to work.

Some of whom work long hours for duff wages and pay Edinburgh rents.

Not all but a lot claiming dole need to take a leaf out of their books.

 

 

Exploiting, or allowing them to earn more than they've ever earned before? I've worked beside loads of Eastern European immigrants, they're "exploiting" the work as much as the work is "exploiting" them.

 

Why is exploiting cheap labour from the UK fine?

[Ked]

31 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Exploiting, or allowing them to earn more than they've ever earned before? I've worked beside loads of Eastern European immigrants, they're "exploiting" the work as much as the work is "exploiting" them.

 

Why is exploiting cheap labour from the UK fine?

I didnt say it was.

And wages are relative.

The subject came about from labour shortages.

Fruit pickers

Toy makers. Etc.

There are currently 1.6 million unemployed was my response.Cade then pointed out low wages which I agree .So if someone comes here to work for low wages they still have the same issues in regards to cost of living.Now I couldnt care if people come to the UK to earn a living but you cant have it both ways.

You cant excuse people already here who are able to work saying wages are too low then somehow pretend that just because someone is foreign it's acceptable.

And exploitation of cheap foreign labour is a growing problem in the UK.

 

 

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, Ked said:

I didnt say it was.

And wages are relative.

The subject came about from labour shortages.

Fruit pickers

Toy makers. Etc.

There are currently 1.6 million unemployed was my response.Cade then pointed out low wages which I agree .So if someone comes here to work for low wages they still have the same issues in regards to cost of living.Now I couldnt care if people come to the UK to earn a living but you cant have it both ways.

You cant excuse people already here who are able to work saying wages are too low then somehow pretend that just because someone is foreign it's acceptable.

And exploitation of cheap foreign labour is a growing problem in the UK.

 

 

 

In my experience, a willing, unskilled foreign immigrant is exploiting as much as being exploited. There's no plus side to locking them out, and pointing the finger at the UK unemployed doesn't change that.

[Ked]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

In my experience, a willing, unskilled foreign immigrant is exploiting as much as being exploited. There's no plus side to locking them out, and pointing the finger at the UK unemployed doesn't change that.

In what way are they exploiting ?

Not doubting your experience just cant see it.

Anyway I'm not pointing the finger but some folk need to get off their lazy backsides and do a bit.

Actually I am pointing the finger.

If someone with poor English can get work easily there is no excuse.

 

[Norm]

5 hours ago, Ked said:

So are you saying exploitation of cheap Labour from other countries is the answer?

Also I'm not sure how the benefit system works these days but if unfit to work you are not classed as unemployed.

When there are no jobs then it's right we have a benefits system 

When there are jobs then imo you should work.

Too many people think life owes them a living.There are many people who I know who came here to work.

Some of whom work long hours for duff wages and pay Edinburgh rents.

Not all but a lot claiming dole need to take a leaf out of their books.

 

And if people can't work the jobs available, then what? A lot of people were laid off through Covid, a lot of those people would have been in jobs that fitted around their child care. When the jobs available don't fit around childcare, what are those people to do? 

[Cade]

.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Cade

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

I agree with the principle but HOW?? And as this is a thread about Brexit, there is absolutely NO reason to to leave the EU to make that happen. For most of my lifetime, the U.K. has had job vacancies whilst large numbers claimed Unemployment Benefit. Brexit isn’t the solution to that problem and never was.

👍

[Ked]

2 hours ago, Norm said:

And if people can't work the jobs available, then what? A lot of people were laid off through Covid, a lot of those people would have been in jobs that fitted around their child care. When the jobs available don't fit around childcare, what are those people to do? 

There are many different circumstances.

I was probably a bit mean with my post.

[Nucky Thompson]

Some of those hospitality jobs might get filled by British workers once the universal credit uplift is scrapped.

 

Offer better wages and working conditions instead of greeting about losing your cheap eastern European labour

 

 

[Ulysses]

What is the rate of unemployment in the UK currently?  If it's around 4-5%, isn't that effectively full employment?

[Ked]

11 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

What is the rate of unemployment in the UK currently?  If it's around 4-5%, isn't that effectively full employment?

1.6 million unemployed.

That's a fair few watching judge judy .

 

[Ulysses]

Is Brexit the only reason for empty supermarket shelves?

 

Food insecurity played a huge part in making the case for Britain's entry into the EEC in the early 1970s.  The UK had food insecurity, queues for basic foods, and politicians calling for rationing.  Germany, France, Italy and the Benelux countries did not.  The debate on whether or not to join included lengthy arguments about the potential impact of membership on food prices and on the stability of food supplies.

 

The world has changed a lot since then, but Britain now finds itself in a similar place to where it was 50 years ago.  There are a lot of potential suppliers around the world.  But the quality suppliers have a market next door to Britain which is 7 times bigger.  So does food supply insecurity get worse?  Or do prices increase to ensure supply remains secure?  Or does Britain do deals with poorer quality suppliers to square the circle?

 

Here's a thread of tweets by Robert Saunders of QMUL's school of history about what happened in the run-up to the UK joining the EEC, and the policy lessons that need to be learned now that the UK is out.

 

https://threader.app/thread/1337526891868254208

[Ulysses]

9 minutes ago, Ked said:

1.6 million unemployed.

That's a fair few watching judge judy .

 

 

That's less than 5%, maybe even less than 4%.  If unemployment goes lower the UK risks increasing inflation rates, which will make the country uncompetitive, especially compared to competitive EU players like Germany and the Netherlands.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Ulysses

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's less than 5%, maybe even less than 4%.  If unemployment goes lower the UK risks increasing inflation rates, which will make the country uncompetitive, especially compared to competitive EU players like Germany and the Netherlands.

Wait.

We need unemployment ?

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

Wait.

We need unemployment ?

 

Who is this "we" of which you speak?

 

I don't need unemployment, and I don't imagine you do either.  However, if you have full employment you run the risk of increasing inflation, and in particular increasing labour costs.  If one economy has those and others don't, then after a time the other economies will become more efficient and more competitive in export markets.  "Global Britain" needs to export as well as import, but no-one's going to pay over the odds for British goods and services if the same standard and quality can be found cheaper from other places.

[Ked]

5 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's less than 5%, maybe even less than 4%.  If unemployment goes lower the UK risks increasing inflation rates, which will make the country uncompetitive, especially compared to competitive EU players like Germany and the Netherlands.

Theres something far wrong if we need unemployment and cheap foreign Labour.

I'm not saying you are wrong .

It's what happens around the world in different economic blocs.

But it's now advocated by those with left leaning tendencies.

In relation to brexit anyway.

 

[Ulysses]

Just now, Ked said:

But it's now advocated by those with left leaning tendencies.

 

 

The right advocates cutting welfare systems and supports so as to bully and starve people into taking jobs they can't do, or that are in the wrong places, or that are underpaid and undervalued, so that employers can increase their profits.  That's no better.

[Ked]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

Who is this "we" of which you speak?

 

I don't need unemployment, and I don't imagine you do either.  However, if you have full employment you run the risk of increasing inflation, and in particular increasing labour costs.  If one economy has those and others don't, then after a time the other economies will become more efficient and more competitive in export markets.  "Global Britain" needs to export as well as import, but no-one's going to pay over the odds for British goods and services if the same standard and quality can be found cheaper from other places.

We as a successful economy.

Or we as in the general concept of a successful economy.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 "Global Britain" needs to export as well as import, but no-one's going to pay over the odds for British goods and services if the same standard and quality can be found cheaper from other places.

Global Britain (Great Nation) exports you say?

Fish? Nah they destroyed that market

Meat? Export paperwork

Cars? Country of origin taxes 

 

What's that leave? Financial services? 

 

 

[Spellczech]

10 hours ago, Ked said:

So are you saying exploitation of cheap Labour from other countries is the answer?

Also I'm not sure how the benefit system works these days but if unfit to work you are not classed as unemployed.

When there are no jobs then it's right we have a benefits system 

When there are jobs then imo you should work.

Too many people think life owes them a living.There are many people who I know who came here to work.

Some of whom work long hours for duff wages and pay Edinburgh rents.

Not all but a lot claiming dole need to take a leaf out of their books.

 

We have societal problems deeply ingrained in the Benefits system. 

It annoys me that benefits started being called "Entitlements"

It annoyed me that they ran adverts asking "are you getting all the entitlements you deserve?"

It annoys me that some unemployed people also call their entitlements their "wages" (yep they do...)

It annoys me that people have kids they cannot provide for

It annoys me that the government tries to cover for this and makes the situation worse by actually making the having of kids beneficial to entitlement claims...

 

But how do you fix it? 

I don't know if these would work but perhaps the following:

 

No benefits for people living with their parents unless the relationship is reversed and they are carers. 

No multiple child benefits unless you are widowed.

Chase the men who don't pay for their kid/s - hard

Don't just dump entitlements into people's bank account by Direct Debit - here's the tech one! - credit a certain % of benefits onto something like a prepaid card that can only be redeemed at food shops, and won't work for booze and cigarettes (even ready meals if necessary!). Eff their free choice, these are benefits not "entitlements" 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

The right advocates cutting welfare systems and supports so as to bully and starve people into taking jobs they can't do, or that are in the wrong places, or that are underpaid and undervalued, so that employers can increase their profits.  That's no better.

 

Well you see, the poor in this country can get off their arses and be made to do jobs they don't want to do for wages that don't cover their outgoings, but the poor in other countries are in danger of being exploited if they come here and should be protected from that.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Smithee

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, Ked said:

We as a successful economy.

Or we as in the general concept of a successful economy.

 

 

 

But what is a successful economy?