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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

What is it?  Malice or naivety?  Is it that the UK's UberNats still believe - even after all that's happened - that the EU values its relationship with Britain more than with itself?  Or is it that for them to succeed it is not enough to leave the project, but they must also try to damage it for the rest of us?  I don't think that 52% of you voted for the malicious interpretation.

Part 2 is exactly what they want. Heading Brexiters want to destroy the EU. End of. Despicable people. The very sight of these suspects is quite sickening. Gove, Johnson, Cumming, Farage. Yewtree poster boys.

Edited by ri Alban
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12 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

What is it?  Malice or naivety?  Is it that the UK's UberNats still believe - even after all that's happened - that the EU values its relationship with Britain more than with itself?  Or is it that for them to succeed it is not enough to leave the project, but they must also try to damage it for the rest of us?  I don't think that 52% of you voted for the malicious interpretation.

Not all of the 52% voted for the “malicious interpretation”. But a sizeable number desired exactly that as a bi-product of their “successful” Brexit outcome.
 

You only have to look at what happened a few months ago when one of the Pro-Brexit organisations (Leave?) setup in the Republic of Ireland with the sole intention of inflicting the same madness on that country. There is a very sinister element to all of this. Unfortunately, there are many people desperate to see the whole EU Project fail and they are very willing to support and encourage it. Sad b******s.

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17 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Brexit is a done deal, and anyone who still harbours notions of a reversal is kidding themselves.  The government doesn't want it, there is no pressure from the opposition, and in any case public opinion is at best divided. 

 

I've said this repeatedly, and with apologies I'll say it again.  The EU acts in effect as a single nation state for customs and trading purposes.  If a country is not in that union, it is a foreign trading party, a "third country".  There is a trade-off between the amount of access you get to our markets and having a variety of regulations and policies aligned with us.  This is not a random bit of bureaucracy.  It is the deliberate result of policies designed to make a very clear distinction between being in our market and being outside it, and it would be damaging to our economies not to do things this way.  Most countries outside the EU are between somewhat unaligned and very unaligned with our regulations - but that's commonplace around the world and it doesn't prevent necessary trade going ahead albeit with a lot of paperwork and restrictions.  If the UK wants a lot of access to our markets it has to be quite aligned or very aligned, and this the UK just does not want to do.  We in the EU can insist on what we want, but we have to accept that if the UK doesn't give us that then we're not getting it.  The UK has to do the same.  If there's a zone of negotiations where the two sides simply can't agree, then up with that we have to put.  The difference between the two sides is that we are putting up with it, albeit with a great deal of regret, while the UK can't just walk away and let the agreement operate the way it was agreed.

 

Well said.

It's done now, no going back to the old way. Just need to find a way of making the exit from Europe work IMO. Until the zealots are out of power we're stuck with them making a mess of things. 

 

It's sad, i think people are sick fed up now and IMO i think that in Scotland the "On the Fence" people will not want to brutality of a Scexit. 

Edited by Mysterion
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1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

 

Well said.

It's done now, no going back to the old way. Just need to find a way of making the exit from Europe work IMO. Until the zealots are out of power we're stuck with them making a mess of things. 

 

It's sad, i think people are sick fed up now and IMO i think that in Scotland the "On the Fence" people will not want to brutality of a Scexit. 

Scotland could return to EU tomorrow, if we became independent.

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1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Scotland could return to EU tomorrow, if we became independent.

 

Customs Union yes, full member not yet.
That'll take time to meet the financial requirements, unless we get a fast track.

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6 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

Customs Union yes, full member not yet.
That'll take time to meet the financial requirements, unless we get a fast track.

Would that then effect our trade with England?

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HartleyLegend3

⚠️ warning, if you voted Brexit, you probably shouldn't read this guys twitter feed. 

And because you voted brexit, can you please never vote again.. Thanks. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ked said:

Would that then effect our trade with England?

Yep, the border would be treated the same way as the border in the english channel is.

 

Maybe Little England may want to renegotiate their wee Brexit deal when the borders start pressing on them from the north, south, east and west.

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4 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Well said.

It's done now, no going back to the old way. Just need to find a way of making the exit from Europe work IMO. Until the zealots are out of power we're stuck with them making a mess of things. 

 

It's sad, i think people are sick fed up now and IMO i think that in Scotland the "On the Fence" people will not want to brutality of a Scexit. 

 

I think it will work, as long as the trade agreement is implemented.  Trade between the EU and the UK will fall, and there will be some economic damage and some adjustments in different business sectors, but that's the price of the UK leaving.  If the agreement turns out to be more damaging than predicted, the two sides can review and amend it, but it will take time to see what the effects are, so there's no reason for that to happen in the short term.

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20 minutes ago, Cade said:

Yep, the border would be treated the same way as the border in the english channel is.

 

Maybe Little England may want to renegotiate their wee Brexit deal when the borders start pressing on them from the north, south, east and west.

Wouldn't that effect Scotland in the same way as the UK is being effected with the EU ?

But with a far greater degree in so much as our percentage of trade is 10 times the amount.

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1 hour ago, Cade said:

 

Customs Union yes, full member not yet.
That'll take time to meet the financial requirements, unless we get a fast track.

 

An independent Scotland would have a number of options, including full membership, membership of the EEA, a trade and co-operation framework with the EU like Switzerland's, or continuation of the trade and co-operation agreement it currently has as part of the UK.

 

An independent Scotland would already meet the financial requirements to join the EU, though if it wanted to join the euro that might be a different matter.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Ked said:

Wouldn't that effect Scotland in the same way as the UK is being effected with the EU ?

But with a far greater degree in so much as our percentage of trade is 10 times the amount.

 

Possibly.  But why would that be a bad thing?

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Just now, Ulysses said:

 

An independent Scotland would have a number of options, including full membership, membership of the EEA, a trade and co-operation framework with the EU like Switzerland's, or continuation of the trade and co-operation agreement it currently has as part of the UK.

 

An independent Scotland would already meet the financial requirements to join the EU, though if it wanted to join the euro that might be a different matter.

 

 

 

Possibly.  But why would that be a bad thing?

I suppose 90% of your exported trade being affected might be in the same way as it is vis brexit.

If it's bad via brexit it therefore follows bad independence.

Isnt the UK a micro version of the EU in free trade.

Which is why I never get tory argument for brexit v anti indie and anti brexit v indie.

Isnt it the same (sort off)

 

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1 minute ago, Ked said:

I suppose 90% of your exported trade being affected might be in the same way as it is vis brexit.

If it's bad via brexit it therefore follows bad independence.

Isnt the UK a micro version of the EU in free trade.

Which is why I never get tory argument for brexit v anti indie and anti brexit v indie.

Isnt it the same (sort off)

 

 

Yes, but is a loss of trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK a bad thing?  Is the loss of trade between the UK and the EU actually a bad thing?  In the short term, maybe the answer is yes.  But is it also yes in the long term?

 

EU-UK trade will be impaired.  In the short term, that's not a good thing.  But it is a necessary thing.  Why?  Two reasons.  (1) So that the UK can control its laws and its borders free of interference from Brussels.  (2) So that the UK can pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the European Union.  If the UK gets to do those things, then the impairment of its trade with the European Union will be worth it.

 

So, what if Scotland wants to control its laws and its borders free of interference from London?  What if Scotland wants to pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the UK? 

 

It follows that if Scotland leaves the UK, it would be doing so for those reasons.  And so, Scotland-England trade would be impaired.  In the short term, that would not a good thing.  But it would be a necessary thing. If by leaving the UK Scotland were to get to control its laws and its borders free of interference from London, and gets to pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the UK, then the impairment of its trade with England, Wales and NI would be worth it.

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1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

It's 60%, by the way.

Apologies 19% EU 21% foreign.

Still out 11% from my misread.

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yes, but is a loss of trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK a bad thing?  Is the loss of trade between the UK and the EU actually a bad thing?  In the short term, maybe the answer is yes.  But is it also yes in the long term?

 

EU-UK trade will be impaired.  In the short term, that's not a good thing.  But it is a necessary thing.  Why?  Two reasons.  (1) So that the UK can control its laws and its borders free of interference from Brussels.  (2) So that the UK can pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the European Union.  If the UK gets to do those things, then the impairment of its trade with the European Union will be worth it.

 

So, what if Scotland wants to control its laws and its borders free of interference from London?  What if Scotland wants to pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the UK? 

 

It follows that if Scotland leaves the UK, it would be doing so for those reasons.  And so, Scotland-England trade would be impaired.  In the short term, that would not a good thing.  But it would be a necessary thing. If by leaving the UK Scotland were to get to control its laws and its borders free of interference from London, and gets to pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the UK, then the impairment of its trade with England, Wales and NI would be worth it.

I'm a bit confused.As I'm sure you are not an advocate for brexit.

Yet you have just stated long term on  trade matters it may be a good thing.

Given the numbers isnt the case in terms of trade that the break up of the UK is more folly than brexit?

Political union is a different question but still poses similar outcomes.

I think you support independence for Scotland but I'm sure you are not convinced about independence for nations from the European Union.

Now devolved powers  to a degree is practiced in the UK and in federal Germany.

If people support that why do they then support independence for Scotland or the opposite that those supporting break up of EU support federalism in Germany and Union over here.

Just an observation thats all.

 

 

 

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HartleyLegend3
2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yes, but is a loss of trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK a bad thing?  Is the loss of trade between the UK and the EU actually a bad thing?  In the short term, maybe the answer is yes.  But is it also yes in the long term?

 

EU-UK trade will be impaired.  In the short term, that's not a good thing.  But it is a necessary thing.  Why?  Two reasons.  (1) So that the UK can control its laws and its borders free of interference from Brussels.  (2) So that the UK can pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the European Union.  If the UK gets to do those things, then the impairment of its trade with the European Union will be worth it.

 

So, what if Scotland wants to control its laws and its borders free of interference from London?  What if Scotland wants to pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the UK? 

 

It follows that if Scotland leaves the UK, it would be doing so for those reasons.  And so, Scotland-England trade would be impaired.  In the short term, that would not a good thing.  But it would be a necessary thing. If by leaving the UK Scotland were to get to control its laws and its borders free of interference from London, and gets to pursue its own independent economic goals, strategies, policies and relationships, and not those dictated by the UK, then the impairment of its trade with England, Wales and NI would be worth it.

I know I'm taking short term here but so far the deals struck have been embarrassingly weak and peanuts compared to what the UK had in Europe. In the long-term, where do you see the UK striking it lucky with deals that will match or surpass what we had with Europe. It isn't going to be America. not a hope in hell of getting anything from China or Russia. Where is the sunny upland deals? 

 

If we are talking about investment coming in. Westminster only tactic it to sell off any resource we have and this is always a short-term gain leading to a huge cost in later years. 

 

IMO we will see prices going up like we see in Nordic countries but without the infrastructure or the benefits. 

Edited by HartleyLegend3
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1 hour ago, Ked said:

Apologies 19% EU 21% foreign.

Still out 11% from my misread.

I'm a bit confused.As I'm sure you are not an advocate for brexit.

Yet you have just stated long term on  trade matters it may be a good thing.

Given the numbers isnt the case in terms of trade that the break up of the UK is more folly than brexit?

Political union is a different question but still poses similar outcomes.

I think you support independence for Scotland but I'm sure you are not convinced about independence for nations from the European Union.

Now devolved powers  to a degree is practiced in the UK and in federal Germany.

If people support that why do they then support independence for Scotland or the opposite that those supporting break up of EU support federalism in Germany and Union over here.

Just an observation thats all.

 

 

 

 

Being 100% in favour of the EU's interests is not the same as opposing Brexit - I live in the EU, so I'd be kinda mad not to feel that way.  The British people voted to leave the EU, and that's what must happen. 

 

I have no idea whether Brexit will or won't improve the UK's trading position in the long term.  But I do believe it will be better.  Why?  Because however good, bad or average it turns out to be, it will be by the UK's own choice and no-one else's.  The UK has decided that being separate from the EU is more important than other considerations, and that is a choice to be respected.  If it results in a trade bonanza, won't that be a great thing for the UK?  If it doesn't, the opponents of Brexit might call it folly, but its supporters won't, because the UK will still have achieved something that matters a lot to it, by the free democratic vote of its people.

 

That logic has to apply to Scotland's place in the UK every bit as much as it does to the UK's place in the EU.  In fact, the logic must hold even more strongly for Scotland, because the UK had far more freedom and sovereignty within the EU than Scotland has in the UK.  The EU had far less influence on Britain than the UK does on Scotland.  The EU could never unilaterally remove any of the UK's independence or sovereignty, but any independence, devolution or sovereignty that Scotland has is entirely in the gift of Westminster and can be revoked at any time.  And the UK could walk away from the EU by simply deciding to do so, because the EU's fundamental law specifically said so, something that is not provided for in the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

 

It isn't relevant that Scotland does or doesn't choose to leave the UK.  What is relevant and important is that Scotland has the right to leave if its people decide they want to do so, with no hesitation or gatekeeping by anyone else.  If they never feel like exercising that right, the question of what happens when they leave never comes up.  But if they do exercise that right, then that decision to leave takes priority over the rest.  If it were to lead to a trading bonanza for Scotland won't that be a great thing for Scotland?  If not, the opponents of independence might call it folly, but its supporters wouldn't, because Scotland would still have achieved something that matters a lot to it, by the free democratic vote of its people.

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19 minutes ago, HartleyLegend3 said:

I know I'm taking short term here but so far the deals struck have been embarrassingly weak and peanuts compared to what the UK had in Europe. In the long-term, where do you see the UK striking it lucky with deals that will match or surpass what we had with Europe. It isn't going to be America. not a hope in hell of getting anything from China or Russia. Where is the sunny upland deals?

 

 

Ireland pivoted away from its trading relationship with the UK, starting in the 1960s, but really after we joined the EEC in 1973.  In the late 1960s the UK was the destination for about two-thirds of our exports.  In 2020, about 10% of our exports went there.  If you exclude trade on this island from the figures, the fall in Ireland's reliance on England's markets was even more noticeable.

 

Maybe the UK can achieve something along those lines by separating itself from its relationship with the EU.  Maybe Scotland can achieve something along those lines by separating itself from its relationship with the rest of the UK.  Or maybe they can't.  I don't know what would or will happen, and to be honest it doesn't matter to me except insofar as it affects Ireland and the EU.  The British people decided to leave the EU, and I'm sure they'll cope with the consequences one way or the other.  My point is that if that logic is allowed to hold for the UK's relationship with the EU, it is politically, philosophically and morally wrong not to apply the same logic to Scotland's relationship with the UK.

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Boris' colonial "internal market bill" just shows that England is terrified of having another hard border in the north.

Westminster is trying to tighten its grip over the rest of the UK and force them to trade with it and lessen exports.

 

They're getting hammered by tariffs across the english channel and the irish sea and yet another hard border in the north will hurt England even more.

 

I reckon they'd very quickly go crawling back to the EU for a soft border deal soon after, which benefits Scotland.

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On 29/08/2021 at 11:34, The Mighty Thor said:

 

 

:interehjrling:

 

Marks & Spencer chairman you say?

 

At least its not someone with a raging self interest that's written the article. 

 

Fair play to the petty racists and xenophobes, they're still not for owning their shitshow. 

When do we think the penny will drop for them? They must realise it by now you would think?

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18 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

When do we think the penny will drop for them? They must realise it by now you would think?

 

Have you seen the press these people read? According to the Express the EU are childish arseholes for enforcing ridiculous rules and causing this situation, and the HGV driver shortage is due to a lack of testing slots (which isn't helping, but doesn't explain the other 50k+ hgv drivers that are missing.)

 

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The Mighty Thor
3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Have you seen the press these people read? According to the Express the EU are childish arseholes for enforcing ridiculous rules and causing this situation, and the HGV driver shortage is due to a lack of testing slots (which isn't helping, but doesn't explain the other 50k+ hgv drivers that are missing.)

 

Not just the papers. 

The BBC did a long piece on the HGV driver shortage without mentioning Brexit once. 

It's institutionally ingrained. 

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Maybe folks wages will go up, due to Brexit. We need to look for some good, it's done, Scotland will return to the EU in some form, post independence, but as it stands we are owned by England and  they have their independence and won't be going back. So let's make our lives better in the while.

Edited by ri Alban
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1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Maybe folks wages will go up, due to Brexit. We need to look for some good, it's done, Scotland will return to the EU in some form, post independence, but as it stands we are owned by England and  they have their independence and won't be going back. So let's make our lives better in the while.

 

As economies shrink and times get hard, it's rarely the little guy who benefits

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2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

As economies shrink and times get hard, it's rarely the little guy who benefits

I know, but I'm trying to be positive about the shelves being empty and Starbucks not having almond milk for my wife's cappa.

 

The silly ***** on my site have released all the founds and are expecting 3 builds per week instead if one, yet our lot are on quota for a certain amount of battens, which works out one roof a week on all our sites. 🤣 Fecking pingdemic :yadayada:

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2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The HGV problems keep piling up…

 

F8CC8D4A-C518-4652-A107-C6D838FDC86E.jpeg

Also got bummed by an alsatian, wanked at Kate Middleton as she went past, and stole knickers from over 300 women.

We all need a hobby eh?

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43 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Also got bummed by an alsatian, wanked at Kate Middleton as she went past, and stole knickers from over 300 women.

We all need a hobby eh?

 

DCE95C26-ABBD-4056-9F93-F5E632E17C54.gif

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35 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Brexit beginning to bite hard now. Vets in short supply now as well. 

All of this was fore warned . Nothing I’m reading on this thread is surprising me 

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jack D and coke
14 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

All of this was fore warned . Nothing I’m reading on this thread is surprising me 

Not even dodgy lorry drivers bumming west highland terriers???

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54 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Not even dodgy lorry drivers bumming west highland terriers???

No that was probably happening long. Before Brexit ! 😂 I really wouldn’t know I prefer my partners to speak rather than bark 😂😂call me old fashioned 

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jack D and coke
21 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

No that was probably happening long. Before Brexit ! 😂 I really wouldn’t know I prefer my partners to speak rather than bark 😂😂call me old fashioned 

:lol: 

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Due to shortages of chemicals for water treatment plants, producers of pollutants are being given the green light to dump untreated sewage and chemical waste into rivers and the sea.

 

:wow:

 

What a time to be alive.

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48 minutes ago, Cade said:

Due to shortages of chemicals for water treatment plants, producers of pollutants are being given the green light to dump untreated sewage and chemical waste into rivers and the sea.

 

:wow:

 

What a time to be alive.

 

To be fair a lot of people did predict Brexit would turn into a shitshow, :whistling:

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Looking forward to some amazing new wildlife from these great new trading agreements. 

 

Did you get your new trainers? Aye, i got new wolf spider to go with them.

 

 

Sorry , I was looking at a big giant spider and it's web in my hedge and thought, Brexit. :D

Edited by ri Alban
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The Mighty Thor
3 hours ago, Cade said:

UK government dropped Paris climate agreement obligations in order to seal the Auzzie trade deal

 

:olly:

The one heavily stacked in Australia's favour?

 

:fonzie:

 

 

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