Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Justin Z]

49 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

You sound quite bitter towards the CS, did you apply and they turned you down

 

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

15 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Why would civil servants be elected? 

I was meaning ones involved with Government, like Andy Coulson. Was Alistair Campbell one?.

[ri Alban]

50 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

💩

[AlphonseCapone]

54 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I was meaning ones involved with Government, like Andy Coulson. Was Alistair Campbell one?.

 

No, Alistair Campbell was employed by the Labour Party and Andy Coulson was employed by the Conservatives. Neither were civil servants. They were more akin to special advisors, who aren't typical civil servants. When a particular party are no longer in government, folk like Campbell, Coulson and special advisors lose their job as well. While 99% of the civil service carry on as usual regardless of governing party. 

 

[coconut doug]

3 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

No, Alistair Campbell was employed by the Labour Party and Andy Coulson was employed by the Conservatives. Neither were civil servants. They were more akin to special advisors, who aren't typical civil servants. When a particular party are no longer in government, folk like Campbell, Coulson and special advisors lose their job as well. While 99% of the civil service carry on as usual regardless of governing party. 

 

 

I don't think you are entirely correct. Spads are Civil Servants and are subject to the Civil Service codes with some exceptions. They are paid by the government if that party is in power.

[AlphonseCapone]

6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

I don't think you are entirely correct. Spads are Civil Servants and are subject to the Civil Service codes with some exceptions. They are paid by the government if that party is in power.

 

Spads aren't full civil servants, though you're right that they are treated as such for as long that Government is in power, but unlike proper civil servants they lose their job when that party loses power and they act in the specific interest of the party that employs them rather than remaining apolitical. 

[coconut doug]

4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Spads aren't full civil servants, though you're right that they are treated as such for as long that Government is in power, but unlike proper civil servants they lose their job when that party loses power and they act in the specific interest of the party that employs them rather than remaining apolitical. 

Yes, but while they are employed by the govt they are bound by the code. They have access to sensitive material and are bound by O.S.A. Temporary civil servants might be the best description.

[Francis Albert]

On ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 16:49, Justin Z said:

 

Found it

 

https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/183209-on-devolution-brexit-independence-and-the-absolute-power-of-westminster

 

Interesting and well written. In relation to my question of how Westminster has reneged on the devolution settlement it seems to me more that Westminster politicians misled about what it was (surprise surprise) and Holyrood politicians thought it was (or hoped it was or chose to pretend it was)) something different from the reality. Devolution was always a messy half way house. The idea that if the UK leaves the EU Scotland should retain EU laws  would seem to add to the messiness and unsustainability of the current form of devolution. The SNP is naturally exploiting the Brexit mess for all its worth. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Interesting and well written. In relation to my question of how Westminster has reneged on the devolution settlement it seems to me more that Westminster politicians misled about what it was (surprise surprise) and Holyrood politicians thought it was (or hoped it was or chose to pretend it was)) something different from the reality. Devolution was always a messy half way house. The idea that if the UK leaves the EU Scotland should retain EU laws  would seem to add to the messiness and unsustainability of the current form of devolution. The SNP is naturally exploiting the Brexit mess for all its worth. 

EU laws are enshrined in Scots law which was supposedly kept as part of The Union. So, you're right, the union was a take over. Signed by traitors. Twice!

[Justin Z]

7 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Interesting and well written. In relation to my question of how Westminster has reneged on the devolution settlement it seems to me more that Westminster politicians misled about what it was (surprise surprise) and Holyrood politicians thought it was (or hoped it was or chose to pretend it was)) something different from the reality. Devolution was always a messy half way house. The idea that if the UK leaves the EU Scotland should retain EU laws  would seem to add to the messiness and unsustainability of the current form of devolution. The SNP is naturally exploiting the Brexit mess for all its worth. 

 

Thanks, the longer version was good enough for a B in my class.

 

I think you capture part of the issue with devolution and how the devolved power was supposed to work, but don't forget that the Sewel Convention came to be along with the original Scotland Act 1998. And yeah, people at the time agreed with how you've said it--"that's just Westminster saying that they won't impinge on devolved matters, they could change their mind anytime". Then as part of the vow for not leaving the Union, the Cameron government put together the Smith Commission and they came up with all this stuff, one bit of which was, "Westminster won't step on your toes, promise--and we're codifying that in law". A doubling down, if you like. So that part, it goes a bit beyond how you've characterised it, I think.

 

But more fundamentally than whether one side was dishonest or the other side was overoptimistic is what you alluded to in pointing out the mess created by leaving the EU. It's not just that this form of devolution cannot work under this constitutional system, it's that no devolution of any kind can. Parliament can't bind its future members. Westminster has all the power under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty and even when it deigns to give some of it away, it hasn't really. One single simple majority vote would take it away again--and that's not just a hypothetical anymore, it's done so, as I pointed out. It's a system with zero real checks or protections or any kind of balance--Westminster is all powerful at all times and nothing internal to this union can ever change that.

 

6 hours ago, ri Alban said:

EU laws are enshrined in Scots law which was supposedly kept as part of The Union. So, you're right, the union was a take over. Signed by traitors. Twice!

 

 

Scots law as preserved in the Acts of Union refers to the legal system in Scotland, including Scots common law, any law passed by the Scottish Parliament pre-1707, the way courts are run, etc. The system post-1707 also modified the existing Scots law scheme altogether so that it holds Westminster to be the ultimate sovereign lawgiver. Devolution and EU treaty law were both enacted by Westminster obviously. EU treaty law signed latterly to the Acts of Union is not in any way especially enshrined in Scots Law in a different way than it's enshrined in UK-wide law. Westminster is the final decider on whether EU treaty law will continue to apply in Scots law.

None of that is in violation of the Acts of Union--that's how it was intended to work. You can argue about whether that's a tolerable arrangement or not, but mischaracterising the way Scots law was "supposedly kept" (it was), and going mental about traitors and shit, doesn't help anything.

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Justin Z

[Cade]

Trade envoy quits because the threat of No-Deal has scuppered the roll-over of our current trade deal with Canada worth £800million.

 

 

[scott herbertson]

On 20/07/2019 at 11:33, ri Alban said:

You're delusional if you think that's what happens. Every CS does what they're told by the rulers of the time.

 

 

I'd suggest an evening in watching Yes Minister

[Justin Z]

“Can someone tell Jacob Rees-Mogg that Europe have just bowled out England for 85 at Lord’s?” asks John Collins.

 

[Pans Jambo]

I see Labour are NOW the party of remain!

 

WTF?

 

Where was this 3 years ago???

[ri Alban]

8 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I see Labour are NOW the party of remain!

 

WTF?

 

Where was this 3 years ago???

A farce!

[Don Dan]

24 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I see Labour are NOW the party of remain!

 

WTF?

 

Where was this 3 years ago???

 

Its an ever changing farce. 

[Mikey1874]

Boris confirming in Parliament Backstop must be changed, and the exit payment will not be made if no deal.

 

EU must renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement. 

 

Right to remain for EU citizens living in UK but not sure if that changes them having to register. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Cade]

EU is not going to re-negotiate.

 

 

[Boris]

Seems plain that Boris and his Junta actively want no deal.

 

Braw...

[Cade]

Raab banging on about "We are not going to re-negotiate unless the backstop is dropped"

But the EU have constantly said that there will be no further negotiations, so I have no idea what he's on about.

Trying to make the UK look like Billy Big Baws by making demands?

 

He's also on about how if we crash out with No Deal, then making a deal with the EU after that will be easier due to the economic harm it's caused the EU.

Never mind the fact that we'll have hurt out own economy worse and we'll be the ones needing a deal and the Irish border and citizen's rights and every other major red line issue will simply re-emerge instantly!

 

These clowns haven't got a clue what they're doing.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

Raab banging on about "We are not going to re-negotiate unless the backstop is dropped"

But the EU have constantly said that there will be no further negotiations, so I have no idea what he's on about.

Trying to make the UK look like Billy Big Baws by making demands?

 

He's also on about how if we crash out with No Deal, then making a deal with the EU after that will be easier due to the economic harm it's caused the EU.

Never mind the fact that we'll have hurt out own economy worse and we'll be the ones needing a deal and the Irish border and citizen's rights and every other major red line issue will simply re-emerge instantly!

 

These clowns haven't got a clue what they're doing.

 

They do, they're playing to their crowd. 

 

All this bluster changes nothing in EU or Brexit terms, only in the eyes of the Brexit leaning electorate who'll approve heartily of this stance. 

[Martin_T]

Everyone loses from No Deal. So again, from a purely logical perspective, why do it? We need multi-national collaboration more than ever, given the looming climate emergency, so this retrenchment into nationalism is baffling to me.

 

I know this is probably unpopular given the focus on theory and ideology. But in actual real life, I've personally already started to be impacted by medicine shortages, as the pharmacy has been unable to fulfill my prescription due to supply issues. This is largely due to production issues by the manufacturer, but it's a chastening foreshadow of one of the potential impacts of 'No Deal' if the supply of goods is impacted.  

[DETTY29]

43 minutes ago, Cade said:

Raab banging on about "We are not going to re-negotiate unless the backstop is dropped"

But the EU have constantly said that there will be no further negotiations, so I have no idea what he's on about.

Trying to make the UK look like Billy Big Baws by making demands?

 

He's also on about how if we crash out with No Deal, then making a deal with the EU after that will be easier due to the economic harm it's caused the EU.

Never mind the fact that we'll have hurt out own economy worse and we'll be the ones needing a deal and the Irish border and citizen's rights and every other major red line issue will simply re-emerge instantly!

 

These clowns haven't got a clue what they're doing.

They cash in on the UK fire sale, personally.

Edited July 29, 2019 by DETTY29

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I think they know exactly what they’re doing, I think we’re going to see an election prior to October and I think the groundwork is being put in just now to frame it ‘that wasn’t us gov’

 

The core issue still remains that parliament numbers ain’t there to get any deal through, 

 

They will get a bounce from bojo and create the right picture they could easily win an election. Bojo wont make the mistakes may made In the election Campaign last time. Love or loathe him he is a very good campaigner as he has proved. Win a election with a majority then pretty much get whatever through. 

 

I think there here will be a number of strategies in play at the moment. At one of them will be setting up for a general election. Ideally want to get some deal through but that just ain’t likely

 

Labour members must be champing at the bit to dump Corbyn.  Their vote is falling away week by week under his "leadership".

 

A general election with him in charge won't go well for Labour.

Edited July 29, 2019 by frankblack

[Ibrahim Tall]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Raab banging on about "We are not going to re-negotiate unless the backstop is dropped"

But the EU have constantly said that there will be no further negotiations, so I have no idea what he's on about.

Trying to make the UK look like Billy Big Baws by making demands?

 

He's also on about how if we crash out with No Deal, then making a deal with the EU after that will be easier due to the economic harm it's caused the EU.

Never mind the fact that we'll have hurt out own economy worse and we'll be the ones needing a deal and the Irish border and citizen's rights and every other major red line issue will simply re-emerge instantly!

 

These clowns haven't got a clue what they're doing.

 

Tbh I think it’s because they don’t care rather than have a clue.

No deal for Ireland could be horrific but they couldn’t gives **** about Ireland. The Tory’s don’t win seats there so it’s someone else’s problem and there’s little to lose.

Same issue exists in Scotland, with labour dying on its arse and the SNP clean sweeping theres no benefit to them in appeasing Scotland.

 

England voted Conservative and the Conservatives are looking after ‘their’ voters. 

[Martin_T]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Labour members must be champing at the bit to dump Corbyn.  Their vote is falling away week by week under his "leadership".

 

A general election with him in charge won't go well for Labour.

 

I'm no Labour or Corbyn fan, but people thought that in 2017 and the opposite happened.

 

I think for Labour to become a credible party of government they need to ditch him ASAP however.

[ri Alban]

The shadow cabinet are vile and need to be cut out immediately. 

S.O.S David Milliband!

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

 

No deal for Ireland could be horrific but they couldn’t gives **** about Ireland. 

The new home secretary was advocating 'starving them out' not too long ago. That and bringing back hanging. 

 

Despite this, they'll get returned with a majority if there's an election any time soon. 

[Mysterion]

Thought about starting a new thread / poll but didn't know - question i have for contributors to this thread/kickback generally... 

 

"In the event of a no deal Brexit is your job at risk ?"

 

 

[Justin Z]

14 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Thought about starting a new thread / poll but didn't know - question i have for contributors to this thread/kickback generally... 

 

"In the event of a no deal Brexit is your job at risk ?"

 

 

I'll feel under extreme pressure to find a job before my student visa expires and I get booted out.

[PortyJambo]

1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

Thought about starting a new thread / poll but didn't know - question i have for contributors to this thread/kickback generally... 

 

"In the event of a no deal Brexit is your job at risk ?"

 

 

 

Yes. Already seen the impact of it (from when no-deal was a possibility) with some clients pulling out of deals with my employer as they want/need  the access to Europe.

[Don Dan]

They better sort this mess out as it’s going to cost me money if the pound doesn’t recover soon.

Thankfully Id done all my major transactions back in May when the pound was stronger against the Euro.

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Thought about starting a new thread / poll but didn't know - question i have for contributors to this thread/kickback generally... 

 

"In the event of a no deal Brexit is your job at risk ?"

 

 

Probably. I expect new home builders to stop.

[ri Alban]

I'll repeat it here.

I do not see a problem with the EU withdrawing the extension, immediately.

[Martin_T]

17 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Thought about starting a new thread / poll but didn't know - question i have for contributors to this thread/kickback generally... 

 

"In the event of a no deal Brexit is your job at risk ?"

 

 

 

Yes I suspect so.

[Boris]

US Congress putting pressure on regards the backstop and GFA.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/31/brexit-mess-with-good-friday-and-well-block-uk-trade-deal-us-politicians-warn

 

LOLZ

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/this-is-not-about-a-return-to-empire-us-congressman-warns-johnson-on-belfast-agreement-1.3972382?mode=amp

 

Congress blocking a trade deal of GFA undermined.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/this-is-not-about-a-return-to-empire-us-congressman-warns-johnson-on-belfast-agreement-1.3972382?mode=amp

 

Congress blocking a trade deal of GFA undermined.

I don’t know if Trump has the power to veto it.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I don’t know if Trump has the power to veto it.

Not sure, but...

 

For the past eight months, Congress has held up ratification of a new trade agreement with Mexico and Canada, the USMCA, which Trump has presented as an extraordinary achievement (though it differs little from its predecessor, Nafta). Representative King said a UK trade deal would face even greater obstacles.

 

(from the link I posted previously)

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

5 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I don’t know if Trump has the power to veto it.

I'm not sure either. Looks like the massive Irish vote in the States will have an impact, though. The Representative in the article is from Massachusetts. Looks as if that relationship means more than the UK one, too. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

Not sure, but...

 

For the past eight months, Congress has held up ratification of a new trade agreement with Mexico and Canada, the USMCA, which Trump has presented as an extraordinary achievement (though it differs little from its predecessor, Nafta). Representative King said a UK trade deal would face even greater obstacles.

 

(from the link I posted previously)

Good read.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

I'm not sure either. Looks like the massive Irish vote in the States will have an impact, though. The Representative in the article is from Massachusetts. Looks as if that relationship means more than the UK one, too. 

Just read your link.

Trump would be on to plums if he tried anything stupid 😀

So what’s new😀

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

11 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Just read your link.

Trump would be on to plums if he tried anything stupid 😀

So what’s new😀

 

I know.

[DETTY29]

Uk - we will f you over Ireland

 

RoW - no you won't.

 

Boris - would you like some tea?

 

See the Boris thread and John Oliver link, p22

Edited July 31, 2019 by DETTY29

[Justin Z]

46 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Off topic is the term Yank something I shouldn’t be using? Just wondered as it originates from Yankee whether it’s now deemed inappropriate. 

 

Gone sre are the days where intent mattered.

 

I self-refer as a Yank and don't find the term offensive at all (Edit: In Scotland it often comes across to me as a term of endearment). A poster who will remain unnamed got his posts removed for calling me a rhyming version thereof in a derogatory way as it was a direct attack on me via my national origin--but that's something entirely different.

 

So on the contrary, I do think intent matters a lot, and I thank you for wanting to be sure it's "kosher".

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Justin Z

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I self-refer as a Yank and don't find the term offensive at all. A poster who will remain unnamed got his posts removed for calling me a rhyming version thereof in a derogatory way as it was a direct attack on me via my national origin--but that's something entirely different.

 

So on the contrary, I do think intent matters a lot, and I thank you for wanting to be sure it's "kosher".

Once you have a Scottish accent you will be called Jock.😀

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Once you have a Scottish accent you will be called Jock.😀

 

Nearly four years here and people in the States tell me my accent is unchanged. As bad as my attempts at a Scottish one are (though they get better when I'm drinking) I have my doubts I'll ever be called a Jock, mistakenly or otherwise.

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Nearly four years here and people in the States tell me my accent is unchanged. As bad as my attempts at a Scottish one are (though they get better when I'm drinking) I have my doubts I'll ever be called a Jock, mistakenly or otherwise.

👍

[Costanza]

Interesting thread on the backstop.

Saw an interview with Arlene Foster this morning blaming a belligerent EU for the problems with the backstop. More reality denying....

 

 

 

 

[Boris]

Just now, Costanza said:

Interesting thread on the backstop.

Saw an interview with Arlene Foster this morning blaming a belligerent EU for the problems with the backstop. More reality denying....

 

 

 

 

 

The DUP happy to join in with the Johnson myth making.  Irish and EU intransigence etc.

 

Awful, awful people.

 

Interesting to hear, yesterday, the Welsh farmers fears of a no deal too.  A certain irony as I think a lot of farmers voted leave, but is there any other way to paint this other than English Tory nationalism gone mad?