Cruyff Turn Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, Victorian said: Parliament has done all it could have done. Crash out is now May's only route of control. We crash out... it's her choice alone. Of course it is but she isn’t in control anymore, she’s just stalling to get support for her deal. If that isn’t forthcoming then they are still very much in position to deliver Brexit because the Tories will see that as the only way. Its still, May deal, no deal or no Brexit. These other options, soft Brexit, customs union Brexit won’t happen. Then it comes down to the EU and whether or not they want to carry on Mays charade. I’d suspect the only option then is she has to go, and a General Election should be called but even then, if they put that nutter Gove in, he’d happily just walk away with no deal. Labour should call a no confidence motion in the PM and get her out now, force a GE, before the Tories just change the leader. The EU would extend for a GE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Parliament takes control = no brexit. Despite standing on a platform of Brexit three quarters of MPs are remainers. The best hope of brexit happening is the EU saying no more delays you have rejected our deal so you must now leave without a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 24/03/2019 at 17:00, Victorian said: Yeah but the no campaign insisted that would mean remaining in the EU as a result. To be fair at that time it was accurate to say so. But let's not be ignorant that the SNP forewarned about the chance of Brexit and people still backed No because the SNP themselves knew fine well Yes would've meant leaving the EU. The independence issue does not and will not solve Scotland's EU issue. The SNP cannot square their EU policies with reality: against ever closer union, CFP, reservations over CAP and the Euro. Why bother? Why be a half way house like the UK? Why not join EFTA? None of that though is open to debate. The SNP have said independence for rejoining the EU. That's a hard one to square. As is the "both markets open to Scots" given Brexit by it's very nature precludes ease of access to both markets for an independent Scotland depending on it's chosen relationships with the EU and UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 23/03/2019 at 22:59, AlphonseCapone said: Weren't you quoting the last election results as a Labour success when the Tories called for a general election when they were 20 points ahead, based on.... Polls? At least be consistent. To be fair whilst not winning he defied all the odds against him. Labour won in areas that they'd never won in before - like Canterbury. There was even a mild bounce in Scotland in the wake of a catastrophic Scottish Election. Issue is he didn't win where he was supposed to and May was the ideal opposite number - not charismatic and dull witted. Corbyn did well to pull it into a hung parliament and - through gritted teeth - deserved to continue on. He's made an arse of it since. Totally. But there are rumours he'll resign after his 70th birthday (June). On 24/03/2019 at 00:32, Cruyff Turn said: The SNP in Scotland have every newspaper and every TV station in the UK against them, yet have still been voted in at both Holyrood and the General Election for years, so I’m not sure that the media is to blame for Labour being useless. They've had the Sun, the National and Sunday National (since founded) and the Sunday Herald in the past 2 elections. Add to that the Scotsman in 2011. The tacit approval of other commentators in the media - McWhirter, McKenna, Rhodes - and new media platforms like Wings and Bella Caledonia would suggest that's not 100% true. TV also cannot editorialise their support to a party like a paper can. Therefore that TV point is worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 24/03/2019 at 17:28, Francis Albert said: Anyone who voted no in the indyref in the belief that Scottish votes would (or ever had) equal weight with English votes on UK issues should probably be disqualified from voting in the next indyref! They do though. They do have equal weight. One person, one vote. Insane I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 24/03/2019 at 18:16, The Comedian said: Also 2014: "If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory," Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU." Out the EU & UK on the same day. A cakewalk, I'm sure you'll agree. Agree. And an often forgotten issue at that time. Much like Sturgeon only being in favour of remain/people's vote categorically since October. Of course before then Norway Plus was the preferred option. On 24/03/2019 at 19:31, shaun.lawson said: If the People's Vote campaign was properly organised, it ought to be taking that petition door to door. Not everyone has internet access; not everyone will be aware of it. And there's certainly a lot more than 5m Brits who'd support revocation. Agree with this as well. The effort should've been to get over 17m signatures. A near impossible task but one worth trying anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: They've had the Sun, the National and Sunday National (since founded) and the Sunday Herald in the past 2 elections. Add to that the Scotsman in 2011. The tacit approval of other commentators in the media - McWhirter, McKenna, Rhodes - and new media platforms like Wings and Bella Caledonia would suggest that's not 100% true. TV also cannot editorialise their support to a party like a paper can. Therefore that TV point is worthless. You’re seriously counting blogs and columns? ? The Scotsman ???? Jesus Christ. I’ll give you the Sunday Herald and the National. The National came out post Indy vote. 95% of the print media. As for “Tv can’t editorialise their support for a party”, agree, they cannot but they can editorialise against a party and what they stand for, the BBC are that anti Scottish Independence they’d make Joseph Goebbals blush. The indisputable evidence https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report/ Edited March 26, 2019 by Cruyff Turn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 5 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said: You’re seriously counting blogs and columns? ? The "new" media in some quarters has higher readership than some papers. It's hard to deny its influence. It is open to question how good their reporting is however. 5 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said: The Scotsman ???? Jesus Christ. The Scotsman editorial for the 2011 election backed an SNP led Holyrood in minority government over another party. 5 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said: I’ll give you the Sunday Herald and the National. The National came out post Indy vote. 95% of the print media. Indy and the SNP are two different voting options. We were talking about the SNP which since 2007 has had the backing of Scotland's most read daily paper, the Sun. That's a good supporter to have. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-13128712 In 2015 and 2017 more papers in Scotland endorsed the SNP over Labour, in 2017 the Guardian went as far to back the SNP in seats Labour would be unable to win: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2015_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2017_United_Kingdom_general_election So it is a myth to say there's "95% of the media against the SNP". There is not widespread support for independence. But there is for the SNP. The two need to be separated. 5 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said: As for “Tv can’t editorialise their support for a party”, agree, they cannot but they can editorialise against a party and what they stand for, the BBC are that anti Scottish Independence they’d make Joseph Goebbals blush. The indisputable evidence https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report/ Again though it's the SNP not independence which you first raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Francis Albert said: If anyone ever admits that the assertion that border controls in Ireland would be a breach of the terms of the Good Friday Agreement is a lie I'll think about admitting I was wrong about something. Though in fact if you were paying attention you would know I have often admitted to being wrong. Not about anything as straightforward and as fundamental as that though. You couldn't even admit you were wrong in asserting, over and over, that "the GFA does not mention the border" and were talking utter shite. Newsflash: You have absolutely no ****ing idea how treaty law works, and you don't understand a thing about the Good Friday Agreement, so maybe you should stop pretending like you do, or like you have the authority to declare a reasonable legal interpretation as a "lie". You've often admitted to being wrong? You'll admit you're wrong when <insert condition> happens? Edited March 26, 2019 by Justin Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 57 minutes ago, Justin Z said: You couldn't even admit you were wrong in asserting, over and over, that "the GFA does not mention the border" and were talking utter shite. Newsflash: You have absolutely no ****ing idea how treaty law works, and you don't understand a thing about the Good Friday Agreement, so maybe you should stop pretending like you do, or like you have the authority to declare a reasonable legal interpretation as a "lie". You've often admitted to being wrong? You'll admit you're wrong when <insert condition> happens? Thanks for that valuable lesson in how treaty law works. I naively thought it had something to do with the wording of the treaty. You apparently interpret the wording by having an insulting personal rant without any reference to the wording of the treaty. Damn it. I am going to have to keep re-reading the thing until I find the wording that I have missed so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesie27 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 May will be away by Friday I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Francis Albert said: Thanks for that valuable lesson in how treaty law works. I naively thought it had something to do with the wording of the treaty. You apparently interpret the wording by having an insulting personal rant without any reference to the wording of the treaty. Damn it. I am going to have to keep re-reading the thing until I find the wording that I have missed so far. It's like everything. Laws, rules are only successful based on what people actually do. The spirit of the agreement is based on improved interaction between Catholics and Unionists short of unification. The Agreement was deliberately ambiguous too to allow room for people to do more of what they wanted. I'm familiar with the border. I'd say the free movement of people is in top 3 successes undermining the Peace Agreement. Its not written down. It doesn't need to be. As plenty people are saying. Have you set out how you see a Hard Border improving the situation? Edited March 26, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 It is written down. FA just refuses to admit that a hard border breaches the GFA when the entire world from the UK to the EU to the bloody UN agree that it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, hughesie27 said: May will be away by Friday I think. You’d think so but she’s got so little self awareness that I think she’ll be here for a while yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, hughesie27 said: May will be away by Friday I think. Quite soon anyway. It doesn't even matter if her deal gets through somehow, perhaps tied to a referendum. Any scenario, she's gone before the end of April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, hughesie27 said: May will be away by Friday I think. Now that's what I call a good Friday agreement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Matters proceeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobboM Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Can't wait for Theresa May to stand up in Parliament to say "We have found a way through the Northern Ireland backstop. Through careful reading of a thread on Jambos Kickback I have discovered that the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply here and we can pile on regardless" Jaws drop throughout the EU as they realise the carefuly nuanced understanding of the GFA by a poster only identifying himself as Francis Albert has unlocked the deadlock. Citizens celebrate with a march of (definitely less than) a million.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Half of ERG admitting the choice is now May's Deal or No Brexit. Other half of ERG calling for a snap election in order to attempt to fill the house with Brexit MPs and force a No Deal. They're in total panic mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, Cade said: Half of ERG admitting the choice is now May's Deal or No Brexit. Other half of ERG calling for a snap election in order to attempt to fill the house with Brexit MPs and force a No Deal. They're in total panic mode. And the stupidity of those now saying they will vote for the Deal. They seriously believed EU would change the agreement. Failing to understand the Backstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 So the group who nicknamed themselves the Grand wizards are starting to bottle crash and back Maybot. Hehe more like prize clowns ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 55 minutes ago, Cade said: Half of ERG admitting the choice is now May's Deal or No Brexit. Other half of ERG calling for a snap election in order to attempt to fill the house with Brexit MPs and force a No Deal. They're in total panic mode. A bit of a mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 What time on Friday do we exit the EU ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said: And the stupidity of those now saying they will vote for the Deal. They seriously believed EU would change the agreement. Failing to understand the Backstop. You mean we don't hold all the cards? Astonishing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 43 minutes ago, JAYEL said: What time on Friday do we exit the EU ? Was due to be 11pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Cade said: Half of ERG admitting the choice is now May's Deal or No Brexit. Other half of ERG calling for a snap election in order to attempt to fill the house with Brexit MPs and force a No Deal. They're in total panic mode. Advocating that fellow members lose their seats. Nice of them. The truth is these snakes have ****ed up Brexit by their own actions. If their voters are looking for people to blame then they should look no further than their own hardliner MPs. It's the ERG arseholes who should lose their seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Was due to be 11pm Is , unless anything changed today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlimOzturk Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Even with the ERG they need the the support of DUP otherwise the deal fails The ERG only have themselves to blame. **** the lot them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, JAYEL said: Is , unless anything changed today No it's already changed. Either 12 April or 22 May. Technicality of updating UK law is due to happen by Friday. International law in terms of treaty with EU has already changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: No it's already changed. Either 12 April or 22 May. Technicality of updating UK law is due to happen by Friday. International law in terms of treaty with EU has already changed. Poster be like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said: Poster be like It's 12 April unless Deal is passed or further extension is requested by Friday. Which is a problem for those seeking an alternative. When they are talking about tomorrow's votes just being a start. Edited March 26, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 5 hours ago, Justin Z said: You couldn't even admit you were wrong in asserting, over and over, that "the GFA does not mention the border" and were talking utter shite. Newsflash: You have absolutely no ****ing idea how treaty law works, and you don't understand a thing about the Good Friday Agreement, so maybe you should stop pretending like you do, or like you have the authority to declare a reasonable legal interpretation as a "lie". You've often admitted to being wrong? You'll admit you're wrong when <insert condition> happens? I watched question time (from Belfast) on Thursday. I was astounded that neither the DUP or Sinn Fein highlighted the troll's legal judgement about the GFA. In fact, none of the Irish audience brought it up either. I'm beginning to think that it's made up bullshit, repeated umpteen times, by one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Cabinet paggering about indicative votes / whipped or free votes. Brexiteers insisting on whipped votes. Others for free votes. Talk of more resignations to follow off the back of the votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, Victorian said: Cabinet paggering about indicative votes / whipped or free votes. Brexiteers insisting on whipped votes. Others for free votes. Talk of more resignations to follow off the back of the votes. I wonder if the tory whips will back the tories, this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said: It's like everything. Laws, rules are only successful based on what people actually do. The spirit of the agreement is based on improved interaction between Catholics and Unionists short of unification. The Agreement was deliberately ambiguous too to allow room for people to do more of what they wanted. I'm familiar with the border. I'd say the free movement of people is in top 3 successes undermining the Peace Agreement. Its not written down. It doesn't need to be. As plenty people are saying. Have you set out how you see a Hard Border improving the situation? A hard border or any sort of border controls would worsen the situation .but would not breach the terms of the GFA. And saying it would does not improve the situation and as I argued yesterday is a dangerous lie. I agree with what you say though. A lot of the GFA is waffle about aspirations including a lot of detail about the working of the devolved Stormont executive which doesn't meet and arms decommissioning which never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said: I wonder if the tory whips will back the tories, this time? Anything's possible these days. It's quite funny watching these snakes demanding whipped votes anyway. Cabinet members have abstained in recent votes and were allowed to continue because May can't afford to piss anyone off. You can understand the more reasonable cabinet members following the whip of course. They risk having to resign if they don't and they are probably keen to prevent too many hardliners dominating in cabinet. You could argue that following a whip to be able to remain in cabinet can be a strategic choice to prevent a Brexiteer takeover. I have some sympathy with the likes of Hammond, Lidington, Rudd and Stewart. I'm sure they're keen to remain in place to provide a balance to the arseholes like Fox, Truss, Leadsom, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 41 minutes ago, JAYEL said: Is , unless anything changed today Bet you a hundred quid we'll still be in the EU come 30th March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Word is indicative votes will be voted on a 'ayes / noes' basis, all at once. No preference voting at this stage. Results possible tomorrow night. I think a secondary stage vote was suggested. Government not saying if votes will be whipped but are bracing for approx 10 more resignations from the 'government payroll'. So.... whipped then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 DUP indicating they would be comfortable with a 12 month extension. You have to wonder why but it seems unlikely to be borne out of any national interest protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Smithee said: Bet you a hundred quid we'll still be in the EU come 30th March. ? Edit , it’s still the Law though and not been changed yet Edited March 26, 2019 by JAYEL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Votes tomorrow then more on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 29 minutes ago, JAYEL said: ? Edit , it’s still the Law though and not been changed yet What point are you making exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Smithee said: What point are you making exactly? Uk to leave the EU on Friday is still the Law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 minute ago, JAYEL said: Uk to leave the EU on Friday is still the Law No it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, JAYEL said: Uk to leave the EU on Friday is still the Law No it isn't. As explained above. Law has changed. UK Parliament just needs to confirm that. Edited March 26, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, JAYEL said: Uk to leave the EU on Friday is still the Law Think I'll leave you to it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAYEL Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: No it isn't. The Law has not been changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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