Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

6 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

What they voted for is open to interpretation.

 

I get that (and I’m still of the opinion that there should never have been a referendum in the first place) but if Brexit collapses, which it might well do, what concessions will be made to the millions who voted for it?

 

I’m trying to see it from the opposite perspective. If the remain vote had won and parliament decided to press ahead and leave the EU anyway (telling us it was actually in our best interests despite what was voted for) then what would the reaction be? 

[deesidejambo]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Wow!  Put the ganja away. I did indeed join on the 11th Nov, and I have no when said poster last posted(if you could show me), but I know you only said because some other poster with no argument said it to deflect.

 

You sound as if you have experience of this. Whom may you be, I wonder, your posting style I don't give a shit about or take any notice of because I have a life and don't take it so serious. But hey you keep squeezing yer testicles, keep the anger and pain strong.

 

 

 

Oh and your scum party lost haha.

 

 

 

 

QED.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

 

QED.

QED?

I don't know what it means.

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

QED?

I don't know what it means.

Is Google down or something?

[jambo lodge]

14 hours ago, Boris said:

I think, if I've understood the ramifications of this, that it means the government can't deliver a fait accompli I.e. Accept the deal or it's no deal.

 

interesting times, as they say.

The final deal , once negotiated with the EU will not have multiple choices attached to it. It will be accept deal or go back to Go. 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

The final deal , once negotiated with the EU will not have multiple choices attached to it. It will be accept deal or go back to Go. 

 

You see, that's not what May has been saying previously.  It's been ratify the deal agreed, if not we leave with no deal.  No going back to renegotiate.  Hobsons choice in other words.

[Francis Albert]

9 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

What they voted for is open to interpretation.

What I think few if any voted for was the "Soft Brexit" subsequently invented by remain supporters. No-one has explained how Soft Brexit differs from Remain, except that the UK will have no representation in the EU parliament and Commissionand other EU institutions.

The "Leave" option was clear and made very clear by the Remain campaigners including David Cameron himself.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

23 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

You see, that's not what May has been saying previously.  It's been ratify the deal agreed, if not we leave with no deal.  No going back to renegotiate.  Hobsons choice in other words.

 

Assuming you can renegotiate, what if Parliament votes to reject the final deal and the EU say's that's all your getting, take it or leave it, what happens then?

I haven't heard anybody say what happens next, if that scenario happened, all they say is go back and renegotiate, well it might not be as simple as that.

 

[Boris]

13 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Assuming you can renegotiate, what if Parliament votes to reject the final deal and the EU say's that's all your getting, take it or leave it, what happens then?

I haven't heard anybody say what happens next, if that scenario happened, all they say is go back and renegotiate, well it might not be as simple as that.

 

You may be right, regards the EU.

 

If the UK were to go back and say we will be in the single market and customs union, it would all be peachy.

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

What I think few if any voted for was the "Soft Brexit" subsequently invented by remain supporters. No-one has explained how Soft Brexit differs from Remain, except that the UK will have no representation in the EU parliament and Commissionand other EU institutions.

The "Leave" option was clear and made very clear by the Remain campaigners including David Cameron himself.

 

Issue is no matter what it is - hard or soft - the bit in bold will be matter of fact. To trade with the EU you've got to accept their rules and have no say on the construction of them.

 

The rest is basically a question of how much economic damage is worth it. I'd argue very little.

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

I get that (and I’m still of the opinion that there should never have been a referendum in the first place) but if Brexit collapses, which it might well do, what concessions will be made to the millions who voted for it?

 

I’m trying to see it from the opposite perspective. If the remain vote had won and parliament decided to press ahead and leave the EU anyway (telling us it was actually in our best interests despite what was voted for) then what would the reaction be? 

 

But there is no debate about leaving the EU. We are. The debate is our future relationship with the EU. 

 

Many leave campaigners said we could leave and keep the benefits of the EU, single market etc. We now know that's not true even though we knew it back then too. Now it's set in stone we can chose whether we wish to be in the EEA or EFTA. We've already agreed to alignment via NI. So we are signing up to match the rules at the least. Perhaps we should commit to single market membership and leave the customs union to do our own deals internationally. 

 

The government are obfuscating and blatantly clueless on this. They've had no idea or agreement on the end result so we've muddled through till now. Frankly, we all know we need single market membership and we should be aiming for a Norway deal. Everything else is massively inferior and damaging to the nation.

 

[jake]

7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Wow!  Put the ganja away. I did indeed join on the 11th Nov, and I have no when said poster last posted(if you could show me), but I know you only said because some other poster with no argument said it to deflect.

 

You sound as if you have experience of this. Whom may you be, I wonder, your posting style I don't give a shit about or take any notice of because I have a life and don't take it so serious. But hey you keep squeezing yer testicles, keep the anger and pain strong.

 

 

 

Oh and your scum party lost haha.

 

 

 

Who did you previously post under?

[Cade]

The Govt has bascially just ignored the NI question.

 

It's impossible to leave the single market and customs union without having a hard border.

 

They've just kicked this huge issue down the road a bit.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Issue is no matter what it is - hard or soft - the bit in bold will be matter of fact. To trade with the EU you've got to accept their rules and have no say on the construction of them.

 

The rest is basically a question of how much economic damage is worth it. I'd argue very little.

Does the USA not trade with the EU? Doesn't India? Doesn't China? I think they do and presumably have to comply with certain EU standards as do EU countries trading with certain non-EU countries standards. "Free movement of peoples" is an example of an EU rule that does not apply to the EU's non-EU trading partners.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Does the USA not trade with the EU? Doesn't India? Doesn't China? I think they do and presumably have to comply with certain EU standards as do EU countries trading with certain non-EU countries standards. "Free movement of peoples" is an example of an EU rule that does not apply to the EU's non-EU trading partners.

 

That's the custom union thing, isn't it?  So we could have a trade deal with the EU, like all these other countries i.e. access to the single market, but there would still need to be customs controls which would in effect mean a hard border between the RoI and the UK.  Not to mention all sorts of new infrastructure needed at ports like Dover etc.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, jake said:

Who did you previously post under?

No one that's the point.

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

 

QED.

Whatever!

[Cade]

At least two of the Tory rebels have received death threats today.

 

This may or may not be related to the rabid foam at the mouth rabble rousing in today's Daily Mail.

 

We've already had one assassination over Brexit. This country is a shambles.

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

That's the custom union thing, isn't it?  So we could have a trade deal with the EU, like all these other countries i.e. access to the single market, but there would still need to be customs controls which would in effect mean a hard border between the RoI and the UK.  Not to mention all sorts of new infrastructure needed at ports like Dover etc.

The countries I mentioned don't as far as I know have a trade deal with the  EU, other than common membership of the World Trade Organisation, which every major trading nation belongs to. This sets maximum tariffs but those maxima need not be and often aren't applied.

The Phase 1 deal between the UK and the EU means that there will not be a hard border between Ireland (North and South) and the UK but as I read it (and the UK government seems to read it) this does not mean that the UK need belong to the Customs Union.

If the UK doesn't there is nothing in the agreement that would prevent a hard border between the UK and the other 26 members of the EU. That would leave the loophole of EU exports to the UK and UK imports from the EU being  transhipped via Ireland to avoid tariffs but in practice the costs of doing so would likely exceed for most goods WTO tariffs.

As for infrastructure at Dover, border controls already exist (as anyone who has travelled to and from there knows). The introduction of green lanes and goods to declare lanes would be inconvenient and incur some cost but hardly make or break stuff.

[Cade]

May says trade talks will start immediately.

 

Junker says not until march.

 

Place yer bets as to who gets their way.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

I like how these talks keep being described as "negotiations".  Seems to me like the EU have already decided what's happening and just drag Maybot in now and again to keep her informed.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

May says trade talks will start immediately.

 

Junker says not until march.

 

Place yer bets as to who gets their way.

 

Technically both statements are correct.

 

Whilst the main trade talks are not scheduled to get underway until March, there has to be preparatory talks setting out the ground rules, the protocol etc etc etc, and they begin long before the main talks get underway, because the main talks can't take place until the preparatory have concluded.

   

[maroonlegions]

David Davis has shown 'contempt' for evidence-based policy making, says Institute for Government

David Davis may have escaped censure from the Commons speaker, but the Institute for Government thinktank is not so forgiving. Bronwen Maddox, its director, has put out this statement in response to the announcement from John Bercow earlier. (See 11.12am.) She said:

"The speaker has found the secretary of state for exiting the EU, David Davis, not to be in contempt of parliament. However, the government has shown contempt for the principle of making decisions based on thorough evidence and analysis.

 

 

Brexit impact reports: Bercow says Davis should have 'been clearer' but clears him of contempt - Politics live

Rolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happen, including David Davis taking questions in the Commons and Theresa May at the EU summit

THEGUARDIAN.COM

 

[Space Mackerel]

6 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Technically both statements are correct.

 

Whilst the main trade talks are not scheduled to get underway until March, there has to be preparatory talks setting out the ground rules, the protocol etc etc etc, and they begin long before the main talks get underway, because the main talks can't take place until the preparatory have concluded.

   

 

I suppose the preparatory talks include all the talks that should’ve been concluded the other week? 

[Rocco_Jambo]

10 hours ago, Cade said:

May says trade talks will start immediately.

 

Junker says not until march.

 

Place yer bets as to who gets their way.

 

You still got anything to bet with after your FREE MONEY 1/15 shots on a no vote?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I suppose the preparatory talks include all the talks that should’ve been concluded the other week? 

 

Nah, the preparatory talks will be to decide such things as whether they have Scottish bottled water or French water on the table, or if it's British or Dutch cheese with the Wiltshire or Danish ham sandwiches.

 

Got to get the priorities right man.

[Francis Albert]

14 hours ago, maroonlegions said:

David Davis has shown 'contempt' for evidence-based policy making, says Institute for Government

David Davis may have escaped censure from the Commons speaker, but the Institute for Government thinktank is not so forgiving. Bronwen Maddox, its director, has put out this statement in response to the announcement from John Bercow earlier. (See 11.12am.) She said:

"The speaker has found the secretary of state for exiting the EU, David Davis, not to be in contempt of parliament. However, the government has shown contempt for the principle of making decisions based on thorough evidence and analysis.

 

 

Brexit impact reports: Bercow says Davis should have 'been clearer' but clears him of contempt - Politics live

Rolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happen, including David Davis taking questions in the Commons and Theresa May at the EU summit

THEGUARDIAN.COM

 

I must have missed the "thorough evidence and analysis" behind our decision to join the EU. Like most political decisions it was more emotional than analytical.

 

[maroonlegions]

12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I must have missed the "thorough evidence and analysis" behind our decision to join the EU. Like most political decisions it was more emotional than analytical.

 

 Still does not excuse this governments total feck up of these negotiations and the contempt and lying from Davis. Would take the word of someone from the institute of Government over May or Davis anyday.  

[maroonlegions]

The real outcome of Brexit. .

 

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

The real outcome of Brexit. .

 

 

 

 

Nah, it's probably something to do with having divorce settlements and several children having to support.

 

Besides his skint and your or mines skint are quite probably two completely different things.

[Cade]

Lives in a £4milllion mansion.

Estimated net worth of £2.5million.

MEP salary of £84,000 a year not including expenses.

MEP pension of £72,000 a year waiting for him.

 

skint

 

 

[maroonlegions]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Nah, it's probably something to do with having divorce settlements and several children having to support.

 

Besides his skint and your or mines skint are quite probably two completely different things.

 Nah, back to the real world, as Cade quoted below;

 

"Lives in a £4milllion mansion.

Estimated net worth of £2.5million.

MEP salary of £84,000 a year not including expenses.

MEP pension of £72,000 a year waiting for him".

 

Two completely different things. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 Nah, back to the real world, as Cade quoted below;

 

"Lives in a £4milllion mansion.

Estimated net worth of £2.5million.

MEP salary of £84,000 a year not including expenses.

MEP pension of £72,000 a year waiting for him".

 

Two completely different things. 

 

Like I said, his skint and our skint are two different things.

[jake]

Ok here is something I think is relevant .

Why?

Because certain posters paint brexit as having sparked a more racist UK.

Interestingly if you watch the video(R T so some will dismiss this )

it scoffs at this compared to France and to my surprise Netherlands.

It also gives a left perspective to brexit.

 

Just saying.https://youtu.be/9swRXhLR4Us

[jake]

https://youtu.be/9swRXhLR4Us 

 

Sorry mucked up first link

Edited December 16, 2017 by jake

[Space Mackerel]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Like I said, his skint and our skint are two different things.

 

Do you think the Universal Credit he will no doubt be applying for will be detrimental to his finances and fixed abode status? 

 

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, jake said:

Ok here is something I think is relevant .

Why?

Because certain posters paint brexit as having sparked a more racist UK.

Interestingly if you watch the video(R T so some will dismiss this )

it scoffs at this compared to France and to my surprise Netherlands.

It also gives a left perspective to brexit.

 

Just saying.https://youtu.be/9swRXhLR4Us

Why does the Dutch surprise you? You just have to look at the Surinam born footballers to see what's beneath the surface. The French well... They created African ghettos, so that was Fecked from the start. Reap and sow, as the chickens have come home to roast.

[MacDonald Jardine]

On 15/12/2017 at 15:08, Jam Tarts 1874 said:

I like how these talks keep being described as "negotiations".  Seems to me like the EU have already decided what's happening and just drag Maybot in now and again to keep her informed.

Indeed.  Who saw that happening?

[Cade]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/18/uk-cannot-have-a-special-deal-for-the-city-says-eu-brexit-negotiator-barnier

 

[Cade]

Nice wee chart produced by the EU so everybody can see the corner we've painted ourselves into.

 

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

Nice wee chart produced by the EU so everybody can see the corner we've painted ourselves into.

 

No EU red lines then?

[Cade]

47 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No EU red lines then?

They don't need any.

They're not the ones leaving.

 

They have consistently, for many months (including again yesterday), said that the UK will not get a bespoke deal or be able to cherry pick things it wants or have different industry sectors treated differently.

 

Today, the UK cabinet met and agreed to demand a bespoke deal

 

 

[Francis Albert]

40 minutes ago, Cade said:

They don't need any.

They're not the ones leaving.

 

They have consistently, for many months (including again yesterday), said that the UK will not get a bespoke deal or be able to cherry pick things it wants or have different industry sectors treated differently.

 

Today, the UK cabinet met and agreed to demand a bespoke deal

 

 

You would almost think a negotiation was taking place.

 

If the EU's position is as clear cut and immutable as they keep saying then aren't they wasting a lot of time and effort?

 

Same can be said for the UK.

 

Fact is both sides have a lot to lose from no deal.

[Space Mackerel]

12 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You would almost think a negotiation was taking place.

 

If the EU's position is as clear cut and immutable as they keep saying then aren't they wasting a lot of time and effort?

 

Same can be said for the UK.

 

Fact is both sides have a lot to lose from no deal.

 

The UK will be too wee, too poor and too stupid after Brexit to arrange any free trade deals with other countries. 

 

These other countries will be wanting to do deals with the EU first. 

 

[Cade]

Negotiation?

 

The EU has been saying the same thing since the start and the UK keeps trying to pretend it's going to budge.

 

It won't.

[Francis Albert]

45 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The UK will be too wee, too poor and too stupid after Brexit to arrange any free trade deals with other countries. 

 

These other countries will be wanting to do deals with the EU first. 

 

Sounds a bit like the unionists view of an independent scotland

 Well except the uk is the fifth biggest economy in the world.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

26 minutes ago, Cade said:

Negotiation?

 

The EU has been saying the same thing since the start and the UK keeps trying to pretend it's going to budge.

 

It won't.

But the eu has just agreed to move to phase 2 of the negotiation while claiming they have nothing to negotiate about.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

18 minutes ago, Cade said:

Negotiation?

 

The EU has been saying the same thing since the start and the UK keeps trying to pretend it's going to budge.

 

It won't.

 

It already has.

 

Is the Irish Border question settled fully?  (You yourself (I think) have said the can's been kicked down the road a bit further)

Are citizens rights settled fully?  (Wasn't there something about UK citizens not being about to work and live in different EU countries, and was to be worked out in phase 2)

Two out of the three things the EU said had to be sorted fully before it would entertain any talks about a trade deal, yet we find that the only thing which is settled is how much the UK is willing to pay.

Now that the EU have a figure of how much the UK is going to pay, the other two things have been kicked down the road a bit further, with the EU's blessing I might add.

 

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Sounds a bit like the unionists view of an independent scotland

 Well except the uk is the fifth biggest economy in the world.

 

6th actually now. 

 

Remind me how much debt it’s in? Remind me what it’s credit rating is? 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The UK will be too wee, too poor and too stupid after Brexit to arrange any free trade deals with other countries. 

 

These other countries will be wanting to do deals with the EU first. 

 

My god Spacey are you actually using those words?

?????????