Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[ri Alban]

Nigel Farage accepts his £73000 per year EU pension. Way to go Nige.

[JamboX2]

20 hours ago, IMac said:

I was a strong Remainer after being a No voter. I believe in the EU project and a federal EU (and UK). I have decided that the current course of the UK is incompatible with my political outlook. Bring on IndyRef 2. I still dislike both the SNP and the greens. 

So in effect you will now back independence? 

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

So in effect you will now back independence? 

 

Sounds like it to me

 

You should too, good chance you’ll get a good old proper socialist government afterwards. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Space Mackerel

[JamboX2]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Sounds like it to me

 

You should too, good chance you’ll get a good old proper socialist government afterwards. 

 

No I won't. One doesn't cause the other. After independence I'll likely get another SNP administration. After that then most likely a Tory one. 

 

You see once the full scale of the reality of independence sets in and people are asked to chose between the higher tax option or not, most Scots will back what hurts them the least and a centre-right government will take office. Added to the fact that there are 3 or 4 mainstream left parties at once in Scotland squeezes their vote share, it opens up the field to a Tory win. You need only look at the recent election and how the old SNP heartlands went blue rather than red orange or green to see that.

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

No I won't. One doesn't cause the other. After independence I'll likely get another SNP administration. After that then most likely a Tory one. 

 

You see once the full scale of the reality of independence sets in and people are asked to chose between the higher tax option or not, most Scots will back what hurts them the least and a centre-right government will take office. Added to the fact that there are 3 or 4 mainstream left parties at once in Scotland squeezes their vote share, it opens up the field to a Tory win. You need only look at the recent election and how the old SNP heartlands went blue rather than red orange or green to see that.

IYO

[JamboX2]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

IYO

Indeed.

 

But it's an opinion based on the basic idea of watching multiple elections and seeing parties offering better services for a moderate tax rise get beat. Labour since 2010 offered more or sustained spending and were beat 3 times by the Tories at Westminster. Labour, the Greens and Liberals all proposed a tax rise of some sort in 2016 and came 3rd, 4th and 5th behind the SNP and Tories who during the election opposed such policies.

 

But come independence day Scotland's middle class marxists will start emptying their pockets to the exchequer.

 

This is all as pie in the sky ludicrousness as Farage and the £350m for the NHS. You do see that, right?

Edited December 9, 2017 by JamboX2

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

Indeed.

 

But it's an opinion based on the basic idea of watching multiple elections and seeing parties offering better services for a moderate tax rise get beat. Labour since 2010 offered more or sustained spending and were beat 3 times by the Tories at Westminster. Labour, the Greens and Liberals all proposed a tax rise of some sort in 2016 and came 3rd, 4th and 5th behind the SNP and Tories who during the election opposed such policies.

 

But come independence day Scotland's middle class marxists will start emptying their pockets to the exchequer.

 

This is all as pie in the sky ludicrousness as Farage and the £350m for the NHS. You do see that, right?

Tell me where they lost? It wasn't in Scotland and only anti Indy voters vote Tory in Scotland and they're not even Tory, its the Unionist party.

If higher taxation is required I'm sure we'll all to what's needed, and that's a big if, I don't see it myself. I think Scotland has plenty to sell.

[JamboX2]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Tell me where they lost? It wasn't in Scotland and only anti Indy voters vote Tory in Scotland and they're not even Tory, its the Unionist party.

 

The SNP lost the seats in the North East and parts of central and southern Scotland to the Tories. It was in Scotland. To argue otherwise is lunacy.

 

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If higher taxation is required I'm sure we'll all to what's needed, and that's a big if, I don't see it myself. I think Scotland has plenty to sell.

I think that your post illustrates the futility of nationalism and smacks of Faragist nonsense. Especially the bold.

 

An assumption that'll all be grand on the night ignoring reality. What'll be on the big blue bus?

 

If Brexit shows anything to the independence movement  (as did the 2014 defeat) telling people it'll be fine and that we'll get all we want from it and more won't work. It's bound to lead to what we're seeing now. If it was more a case of understanding there needs to be a series of huge compromises and sacrifices made to facilitate it then that's at least the mature route.

Edited December 9, 2017 by JamboX2

[jack D and coke]

54 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The SNP lost the seats in the North East and parts of central and southern Scotland to the Tories. It was in Scotland. To argue otherwise is lunacy.

 

I think that your post illustrates the futility of nationalism and smacks of Faragist nonsense. Especially the bold.

 

An assumption that'll all be grand on the night ignoring reality. What'll be on the big blue bus?

 

If Brexit shows anything to the independence movement  (as did the 2014 defeat) telling people it'll be fine and that we'll get all we want from it and more won't work. It's bound to lead to what we're seeing now. If it was more a case of understanding there needs to be a series of huge compromises and sacrifices made to facilitate it then that's at least the mature route.

 

The blind refusal to see the similarities in brexit and a potential independence vote is baffling to me. 

I doubt there would be a labour or socialist government either tbh.

Ireland has never had one again after getting its independence from Britain. 

 

[Space Mackerel]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 

The blind refusal to see the similarities in brexit and a potential independence vote is baffling to me. 

I doubt there would be a labour or socialist government either tbh.

Ireland has never had one again after getting its independence from Britain. 

 

 

You’re  assuming the electoral system would be the same as FPTP. 

 

You would get loads and loads of coalition governments pretty much what Germany ends up with under whatever form of PR is introduced. I reckon they would all lean to the left. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Space Mackerel

[redjambo]

16 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You’re  assuming the electoral system would be the same as FPTP. 

 

You would get loads and loads of coalition governments pretty much what Germany ends up with under whatever form of PR is introduced. I reckon they would all lean to the left. 

 

I agree. Scotland has been naturally left-leaning for a long while. I don't think that would change.

[JamboX2]

23 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You’re  assuming the electoral system would be the same as FPTP. 

 

You would get loads and loads of coalition governments pretty much what Germany ends up with under whatever form of PR is introduced. I reckon they would all lean to the left. 

 

But we know it won't be FPTP.  We've got AMS in Scotland. So we know there'll be coalitions. We've had two already and two minority governments at Holyrood one supported by the Tories one by the Greens (loosely).

 

You're assumption of left leaning governance is totally just that. I agree with JackD. Look to Ireland. It's two main parties are on the centre right and it's left has never been in power without one of those two parties in office with them. Scotland and her population leans to that centrism as does much of the UK. Why you seem to think it'll suddenly switch to the Scandi-Left is beyond me. 

 

Much like how Farage thinks leaving the EU means the NHS will be privatised I don't get it. People aren't like that.

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But we know it won't be FPTP.  We've got AMS in Scotland. So we know there'll be coalitions. We've had two already and two minority governments at Holyrood one supported by the Tories one by the Greens (loosely).

 

You're assumption of left leaning governance is totally just that. I agree with JackD. Look to Ireland. It's two main parties are on the centre right and it's left has never been in power without one of those two parties in office with them. Scotland and her population leans to that centrism as does much of the UK. Why you seem to think it'll suddenly switch to the Scandi-Left is beyond me. 

 

Much like how Farage thinks leaving the EU means the NHS will be privatised I don't get it. People aren't like that.

 

WTF has Ireland got to do with Scotland? 

Why don’t you use Corbyn in England as a reference? Because it doesn’t suit your Yoon agenda? 

 

[jack D and coke]

35 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You’re  assuming the electoral system would be the same as FPTP. 

 

You would get loads and loads of coalition governments pretty much what Germany ends up with under whatever form of PR is introduced. I reckon they would all lean to the left. 

I’m not really assuming anything pal I’m just not convinced we’d have anything other than conservative type governments. We like to think we’re different from England but I’m not sure we really are tbh.   I’d imagine the SNP has some of these types in there already as it’s probably a broad church of views all who just happen to favour independence. 

In the case of independence happening though I’d defo vote snp or whoever they morphed into for a while as it was their call and they should be made to deal with the initial transition. 

[JamboX2]

37 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

WTF has Ireland got to do with Scotland? 

Why don’t you use Corbyn in England as a reference? Because it doesn’t suit your Yoon agenda? 

 

Not at all. If anything it proves it! Corbyn sits to the left of the centre and centre left of British politics and struggles at times to make traction.

 

Why don't we look at Scotland? Where are RISE and the SSP? Why are the SNP stuck bang in the centre, cutting council budgets and grudging in using tax powers? 

[IMac]

7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

So in effect you will now back independence? 

I would. I don't like the direction the UK is going. I also think that with the amount of uncertainty, the economic loss brexit will likely lead to and the now obvious different political and cultural attitudes of the English and the Scots we might as well go our own way. Better to be in a progressive Scotland than a inward looking UK. 

[JamboX2]

7 minutes ago, IMac said:

I would. I don't like the direction the UK is going. I also think that with the amount of uncertainty, the economic loss brexit will likely lead to and the now obvious different political and cultural attitudes of the English and the Scots we might as well go our own way. Better to be in a progressive Scotland than a inward looking UK. 

 

 

I'm interested more because I've gone another way... 

 

Do you not see them as two sides of the same coin? Just curious about your thinking is all.

 

I just think Brexit shows how hard disentangling and how fraught a process independence will be. How much time wasted on constitutional issues over health, education etc.

[Cade]

Health and education are already fully devolved, and always have been 

[JamboX2]

24 minutes ago, Cade said:

Health and education are already fully devolved, and always have been 

Indeed. My point was another period of referendums is hardly great for focus on other issues. Nearly 10 years of discussing it on amd off in it's own right and due to Brexit.

[hueyview]

We have Brexit.... The result surprised me but we are stuck with it.....

 

At least May seems to have secured Ireland's north south integrity... For that I thank her.

 

 

The greater threat is economic/jobs collapse....  Gove and Johnson and the Brexit crew have a lot to answer for........

[Space Mackerel]

21 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

Not at all. If anything it proves it! Corbyn sits to the left of the centre and centre left of British politics and struggles at times to make traction.

 

Why don't we look at Scotland? Where are RISE and the SSP? Why are the SNP stuck bang in the centre, cutting council budgets and grudging in using tax powers? 

 

Where does the money come from that the Scottish Government spends annually? 

Are the cuts just in Scotland or are they across the whole of the UK right now? 

[JamboX2]

41 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Where does the money come from that the Scottish Government spends annually? 

Are the cuts just in Scotland or are they across the whole of the UK right now? 

 

A mix of block grant and devolved or assigned taxation is where it comes from.

 

There are cuts across the UK but we live in Scotland, where the government can raise money itself and spend it as it wishes. One Scottish Government policy - council tax freeze - has been underfunded in terms of inflation which has caused local service cuts. They could do one of two things - end the freeze or raise more from general tax  (Penny for Scotland) to combat that.

 

What have Leeds and Liverpool got to do with Scottish schools...

[deesidejambo]

7 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

A mix of block grant and devolved or assigned taxation is where it comes from.

 

There are cuts across the UK but we live in Scotland, where the government can raise money itself and spend it as it wishes. One Scottish Government policy - council tax freeze - has been underfunded in terms of inflation which has caused local service cuts. They could do one of two things - end the freeze or raise more from general tax  (Penny for Scotland) to combat that.

 

What have Leeds and Liverpool got to do with Scottish schools...

The Scottish Budget is out this week with the proposal for personal taxation.  About time too.

 

of the options on the table I personally am closest to the Greens proposal, but I think the SNP will go with option 2a.

 

what are other KBers preferences? And what do you think the SNP will go with? 

[XB52]

28 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 They could do one of two things - end the freeze or raise more from general tax  (Penny for Scotland) to combat that.

????? The council tax freeze was ended and they will be raising taxes next week.

[Space Mackerel]

40 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

A mix of block grant and devolved or assigned taxation is where it comes from.

 

There are cuts across the UK but we live in Scotland, where the government can raise money itself and spend it as it wishes. One Scottish Government policy - council tax freeze - has been underfunded in terms of inflation which has caused local service cuts. They could do one of two things - end the freeze or raise more from general tax  (Penny for Scotland) to combat that.

 

What have Leeds and Liverpool got to do with Scottish schools...

 

So we whack up taxes when the economy is in a mess (due to a Tory Government in Westminster) and the unsureity of Brexit looms over our heads?

 

Why doesn’t the local authorities do the same in Leeds and Liverpool? 

[deesidejambo]

5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

So we whack up taxes when the economy is in a mess (due to a Tory Government in Westminster) and the unsureity of Brexit looms over our heads?

 

Why doesn’t the local authorities do the same in Leeds and Liverpool? 

What should your SNP do on Thursday wrt personal taxation?

[Space Mackerel]

10 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

What should your SNP do on Thursday wrt personal taxation?

 

I honestly have no idea what’s happening in that regard. 

Clearly putting tax up will unleash Mooth in overdrive. 

 

Me personally, I can afford to pay more tax. 

[deesidejambo]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I honestly have no idea what’s happening in that regard. 

Clearly putting tax up will unleash Mooth in overdrive. 

 

Me personally, I can afford to pay more tax. 

I did don’t ask what is happening,  I asked what you think the SNP should do?     

 

The options are are clearly spelled out in the document so you can make an informed decision as to which one they should choose for the benefit of Scotland.

 

but I suspect you will not say, instead wait till they announce whichever option they choose then you will defend it as the correct one. 

 

Good sheep.

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

I did don’t ask what is happening,  I asked what you think the SNP should do?     

 

The options are are clearly spelled out in the document so you can make an informed decision as to which one they should choose for the benefit of Scotland.

 

but I suspect you will not say, instead wait till they announce whichever option they choose then you will defend it as the correct one. 

 

Good sheep.

 

Maybe we wouldn’t have to pay more tax if the arseholes in the Tory Party stopped all this tax avoidance/evasion first? 

[deesidejambo]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Maybe we wouldn’t have to pay more tax if the arseholes in the Tory Party stopped all this tax avoidance/evasion first? 

QED

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

QED

 

Anyway, back to Brexit, I know you ultra Yoons like to deflect on Scottish domestic policy at the flick of a switch on here.

 

Have a read of this. The Brexiteers are living in cloud cookoo land. . 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=255998&subid=19739871&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Edited December 10, 2017 by Space Mackerel

[jake]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Anyway, back to Brexit, I know you ultra Yoons like to deflect on Scottish domestic policy at the flick of a switch on here.

 

Have a read of this. The Brexiteers are living in cloud cookoo land. . 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=255998&subid=19739871&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Yes because the Guardian always gives a balanced view on Brexit.

 

An EU official close to the talks suddenly further down the page becomes an EU warning.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by jake

[deesidejambo]

3 minutes ago, jake said:

Yes because the Guardian always gives a balanced view on Brexit.

 

 

 

It’s indeed the case that the MSM always print lies unless they print something Spacey agrees with, in which case it’s true.

[Space Mackerel]

15 minutes ago, jake said:

Yes because the Guardian always gives a balanced view on Brexit.

 

An EU official close to the talks suddenly further down the page becomes an EU warning.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, deesidejambo said:

It’s indeed the case that the MSM always print lies unless they print something Spacey agrees with, in which case it’s true.

 

Classic head in the sand type posts boys

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, jake said:

Yes because the Guardian always gives a balanced view on Brexit.

 

An EU official close to the talks suddenly further down the page becomes an EU warning.

 

 

This was also the Observer's lead today, An un-named  EU "official" says in advance of the trade negotiations that other countries are demanding no favourable deal with the UK.

 

In the week after Mandy Rice Davies's  famous reply in Court received wide publicity ("he would say that wouldn't he?") the Guardian and the Observer just take "EU official's" comments at face value.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

This was also the Observer's lead today, An un-named  EU "official" says in advance of the trade negotiations that other countries are demanding no favourable deal with the UK.

 

In the week after Mandy Rice Davies's  famous reply in Court received wide publicity ("he would say that wouldn't he?") the Guardian and the Observer just take "EU official's" comments at face value.

 

Theres plenty other quotes from other than non EU sources though. 

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Theres plenty other quotes from other than non EU sources though. 

They also take Remainer sources at face value it is true.

It' is not what I'd call journalism.

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

The Scottish Budget is out this week with the proposal for personal taxation.  About time too.

 

of the options on the table I personally am closest to the Greens proposal, but I think the SNP will go with option 2a.

 

what are other KBers preferences? And what do you think the SNP will go with? 

How much is needed to give the public sector a pay rise???

[Space Mackerel]

Meanwhile, this seems to have escaped media attention 

 

EU trade deal with Japan announced on Friday.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b48e4f3a-dc0e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

[Jambo-Jimbo]

22 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Meanwhile, this seems to have escaped media attention 

 

EU trade deal with Japan announced on Friday.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b48e4f3a-dc0e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

 

It was actually agreed back in June or July, just got rubber stamped on Friday.

 

It had been dubbed the 'Cheese for Cars' deal.

 

Edit: I wouldn't say it's escaped media attention, I could list at least 6 links to the story, it was reported widely in the media.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Space Mackerel]

13 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It was actually agreed back in June or July, just got rubber stamped on Friday.

 

It had been dubbed the 'Cheese for Cars' deal.

 

Edit: I wouldn't say it's escaped media attention, I could list at least 6 links to the story, it was reported widely in the media.

 

 

Point im making is that this puts UK business at an even more disadvantageous position post Brexit. 

 

But as as long as we have Blue passports all will be alright. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Point im making is that this puts UK business at an even more disadvantageous position post Brexit. 

 

But as as long as we have Blue passports all will be alright. 

 

And I don't dispute that, however it's not as if the deal with Japan is something new and just happened overnight, they have been negotiating the deal for nearly 5 years now (started in March 2013, I think), and it's still to be ratified by the European Parliament, which I don't see any issues arising.

 

The point here is that the 'remain' side could have easily brought this to the attention of the UK population, that there was huge trade deals nearing completion with Canada & Japan and that if we left the EU the UK would not benefit from the said deals, I can't recall this ever being mentioned by the 'remain' side.  Doubt it would have made much difference, but that's something we'll never know now.

 

[jake]

4 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

Classic head in the sand type posts boys

Can you tell me which European countries have the highest employment rate?

I will give you a clue.

They are not members of the EU.

These yet to be rubber stamped FTA with Japan and Canada.

Would they be like the ones already enjoyed by 2 of those 3 countries.

There is not only a democratic and moral case for brexit but a strong economic case for it.

 

Meanwhile Spain Greece and Portugal suffer from over 20% unemployment and 40% youth unemployment.

 

Whose heads buried Space?

[JamboX2]

9 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Anyway, back to Brexit, I know you ultra Yoons like to deflect on Scottish domestic policy at the flick of a switch on here.

 

Have a read of this. The Brexiteers are living in cloud cookoo land. . 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=255998&subid=19739871&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Read this today and totally agree. I can't see why the UK should get a specialist deal. Personally I think we should aim for a Norway style arrangement. Retain single market access but leave the customs union. Join EFTA. 

 

Seems the most sensible option.

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And I don't dispute that, however it's not as if the deal with Japan is something new and just happened overnight, they have been negotiating the deal for nearly 5 years now (started in March 2013, I think), and it's still to be ratified by the European Parliament, which I don't see any issues arising.

 

The point here is that the 'remain' side could have easily brought this to the attention of the UK population, that there was huge trade deals nearing completion with Canada & Japan and that if we left the EU the UK would not benefit from the said deals, I can't recall this ever being mentioned by the 'remain' side.  Doubt it would have made much difference, but that's something we'll never know now.

 

Neither do I and those deals should've been mentioned.

 

Sadly the remain side were divided and lacked any real coherent strategy. The message just didn't seem to gel between the parties or work with people. Distilling it to the "money in your" pocket stuff would've been better: i.e. contrast a basket of food bought in Trondheim or Reykjavik to one from Luton and Dundee would've perhaps gained more traction.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

10 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

So we whack up taxes when the economy is in a mess (due to a Tory Government in Westminster) and the unsureity of Brexit looms over our heads?

 

Why doesn’t the local authorities do the same in Leeds and Liverpool? 

 

Tbh Scotland's income tax base is too narrow as it is - there's an issue around not enough higher band tax payers and an issue of the majority of Scots falling into the same band rates over a briad range of wages. Seems it's either best to do a flat rate extra penny against all or you re-band income levels. Side issue there is that you make Scotland less attractive tax wise and income is mobile. 

 

Capital is not. And more should be done to tackle and tax land wealth. I'd like to see a Land Tax in the budget. Not LBTT as that's a tax on property transfers but a tax on the value of Land.

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, jake said:

Can you tell me which European countries have the highest employment rate?

I will give you a clue.

They are not members of the EU.

These yet to be rubber stamped FTA with Japan and Canada.

Would they be like the ones already enjoyed by 2 of those 3 countries.

There is not only a democratic and moral case for brexit but a strong economic case for it.

 

Meanwhile Spain Greece and Portugal suffer from over 20% unemployment and 40% youth unemployment.

 

Whose heads buried Space?

 

It's the Czech Republic (in the EU) at 3% of it's working age population unemployed. The lowest non-EU nation is 3.5% in Iceland.

[jake]

6 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It's the Czech Republic (in the EU) at 3% of it's working age population unemployed. The lowest non-EU nation is 3.5% in Iceland.

You forgot Norway and Switzerland.

[redjambo]

Unemployment rates as most recently reported:

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate

 

European countries:

 

Liechtenstein 2.3%

Switzerland 3.1%

Czechia 3.5%

Iceland 3.6%

Germany 3.6%

Norway 4.0%

Hungary 4.0%

Malta 4.1%

UK 4.3%

Denmark 4.3%

...

 

[JamboX2]

4 hours ago, jake said:

You forgot Norway and Switzerland.

 

Norway 4.6%

Switzerland 3.4%

 

So still an EU nation.

 

Here's a point to consider here, all 3 nations - Iceland, Norway and Switzerland - are in the Single Market for the prorection of jobs in their economies. All are broadly open to free movement as a principle. And important distinction from the UK, they all act with an interventionist attitude to the economy by investing a lot in new industries, skills and research and in their workforces (good pay, good conditions and good benefits). 

 

Perhaps it's not the EUs fault but the economic policies of the UK and otger nations. I mean Czech Republic are doing better than the rest within the EU.

 

Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland were overstretched to their debt burdens. Their governments made bad choices. Including in Greece were national accounts were edited to make them euro worthy.

 

The EU troika has a lot to answer for on austerity but the blame of how these places got there is rightly placed at the doors of their own governments Jake.