Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Francis Albert]

On 01/09/2017 at 13:25, frankblack said:

 

Nope.  That is exactly what the EU want us to do, in much the same way as they forced countries that rejected their referendums to keep having more of them until they got the answer they wanted.

 

The people voted to leave and that is what has to be delivered.

Indeed. It seems to have been forgotten that the commons voted by a 6 to 1 majority to hold the referendum. It seems a bit harsh to blame those who then voted for one of the options and try to ignore their vote.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So the Norwayesque deal is on then, as predicted. All that wailing and gnashing of teeth by Remainers for nothing.

 

Now Schulz's United States of Europe can proceed and the UK will trade in harmony with it. Good stuff.

[doctor jambo]

I'm a bit pissed off now that the NI can keep their EU citizenship

 

but I cannot

Seems inherently unfair

[Rab87]

6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I'm a bit pissed off now that the NI can keep their EU citizenship

 

but I cannot

Seems inherently unfair

You mean that NI citizens shall still be considered EU nationals, and enjoy the freedom of moment that comes with?

 

I do not think that this is the case...?

[doctor jambo]

6 minutes ago, Rab87 said:

You mean that NI citizens shall still be considered EU nationals, and enjoy the freedom of moment that comes with?

 

I do not think that this is the case...?

They retain the right to an Irish passport and all the rights and freedoms that come with it as full citizens of the EU.

If you are born in NI then you can take an Irish passport AND a UK one so can be an EU national

Discussed on radio this am

[jack D and coke]

Then we have to assume the SNP have the ammo needed now to call for indyref 2 if this is the case? 

Or was that basically just based on the single market? 

Edited December 8, 2017 by jack D and coke

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

8 minutes ago, Rab87 said:

You mean that NI citizens shall still be considered EU nationals, and enjoy the freedom of moment that comes with?

 

I do not think that this is the case...?

Given that NI citizens can apply for an Irish passport as well due to the Good Friday Agreement, it makes sense.

 

As for the UK, you will retain freedom to travel. I am also willing to bet that freedom to work elsewhere in the EU will be retained.

[AlphonseCapone]

16 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I'm a bit pissed off now that the NI can keep their EU citizenship

 

but I cannot

Seems inherently unfair

 

Unfair?

 

There are hundreds of years of historical and violent reasons why that is the case. Those inclined to plump for an Irish Republic passport tend to find it unfair they are part of Britain in the first place.

 

The arrangement with Irish/British passport is part of the GFA and existed long before Brexit.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

49 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Indeed. It seems to have been forgotten that the commons voted by a 6 to 1 majority to hold the referendum. It seems a bit harsh to blame those who then voted for one of the options and try to ignore their vote.

 

Totally, many of the MP's who are now moaning about leaving the EU voted to allow a referendum on EU membership in the first place.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

People are unashamedly tribal with everything. It's probably the aspect that has held human society back more than anything else, so easy to divide into rich/poor, working class/posh, Labour/Tory, catholic/protestant etc etc and folk fall into line so quickly and become irrational. Scotland, UK, EU, the world, any of that falling apart is terrible for all of us.

 

 

 

[jambo lodge]

25 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Given that NI citizens can apply for an Irish passport as well due to the Good Friday Agreement, it makes sense.

 

As for the UK, you will retain freedom to travel. I am also willing to bet that freedom to work elsewhere in the EU will be retained.

 

Far too much common sense for the sceptics on here

[Boris]

55 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Given that NI citizens can apply for an Irish passport as well due to the Good Friday Agreement, it makes sense.

 

As for the UK, you will retain freedom to travel. I am also willing to bet that freedom to work elsewhere in the EU will be retained.

 

Do you think that will be a two way agreement?  i.e. EU citizens will have those freedoms in respect ofthe UK?

[JamboX2]

20 hours ago, reaths17 said:

well at least their audited, unlike the EU.

 

when the pooled upper end hasn't a clue what all the christmas tree like lower level branches are up to and have lost control of the beaurocratic monster that they cant account for their finances, their comings and goings, you open yourself up to grave miss doings.

 

there are times when things get to big and become uncontrollable, the EU has whatever amount of members and all are sitting at their own steering wheel, their not working together, its about what's best for them, that's not pooling power.

 

the rule is not on a majority, the EU is generally run by Germany, with GB and France trying to get the same amount of say. the rest of the countries do the compromising as Germany generally rides roughshod over the rest.

 

the EU has been a bone of contention in politics in every member state from it's inception.......even Germany

 

 

That's all been proven wrong. Ireland has been the tail wagging the dog of late in the EU over Brexit. Germany was apparently happy to compromise to move ahead. So that's nonsense.

[JamboX2]

31 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Do you think that will be a two way agreement?  i.e. EU citizens will have those freedoms in respect ofthe UK?

Yes. Otherwise we won't get what we want. It'll be reciprocal.

[AlphonseCapone]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

That's all been proven wrong. Ireland has been the tail wagging the dog of late in the EU over Brexit. Germany was apparently happy to compromise to move ahead. So that's nonsense.

 

Only because the UK are the problem for the EU just now, not Ireland. Ireland wasn't wagging any tails when it was made to re-vote on the Lisbon treaty.

[JamboX2]

21 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I don't disagree that all soft brexit adherents should work together, genuinely don't.  Independence has been dropped, see shelving of indy ref, so over to the unionist parties to come together on this.

 

Looks like party allegience, especially in the case of the Tories, will prevail though.

 

If the country is more important than the party then they should split, forcing the brexiteers into UKIP and see how they get on from there.

Agreed. I think there's an inherent lack of trust between the Yes and No parties over the canpaign rhetoric from 2014 which is a barrier to it - sadly. It's why referendums are such a messy and contemptible form of governing. They boil major issues down to a tribalistic binary shouting match.

 

We need to be braver to trust our elected representatives again to make these decisions based on manifesto commitments. 

 

Would honestly be better if an SNP or UKIP Tory party just said "if elected we're negotiating independence from the UK/Brussels".

[JamboX2]

4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Only because the UK are the problem for the EU just now, not Ireland. Ireland wasn't wagging any tails when it was made to re-vote on the Lisbon treaty.

Totally agree again. But don't see your point.

 

National vetoes are powerful tools in the EU. Ireland  (twice now - Brexit and Lisbon) have forced rethinks on major initiatives. Whilst French and Dutch vetoes scuppered the EU Constitutional Treaty which lead to a watered down Lisbon treaty.

 

Interestingly the ECT would've handed more powers to the elected parliament. Which would've rectified the "lack of mandate" argument.

 

Shows reaths was wrong in saying the EU is at the beck and call of Germany which is outlandish Faragist propaganda. Slovakia vetoed terms of a eurozone bailout to Greece. The Visegard group (Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Poles, Slovenes) all demanded and got rights to tighten their borders against the wishes of Germany. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by JamboX2

[jack D and coke]

14 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Only because the UK are the problem for the EU just now, not Ireland. Ireland wasn't wagging any tails when it was made to re-vote on the Lisbon treaty.

The EU used Ireland imo. 

Those dafties would be put right back in in their box if they tried to have any democratic votes against the EU as we’ve seen in the past. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Do you think that will be a two way agreement?  i.e. EU citizens will have those freedoms in respect ofthe UK?

Yes. There will be a word salad on migration which changes nothing.

[Pans Jambo]

Certainly blows any hard border argument out of the water between Scotland and rUK should Indy2 come around again.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Pans Jambo

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Yes. There will be a word salad on migration which changes nothing.

So any EU citizen can go to Ireland, cross over into NI and then into the uk? Legally nothing wrong? 

[Boris]

16 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

So any EU citizen can go to Ireland, cross over into NI and then into the uk? Legally nothing wrong? 

[AlphonseCapone]

22 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

So any EU citizen can go to Ireland, cross over into NI and then into the uk? Legally nothing wrong? 

 

Ireland and the UK weren't in Schegen anyway so there has always been passport checks entering Ireland regardless of coming from an EU country but there were no restrictions. To do what they propose then the UK must not be planning on changing anything in regards to the current set-up.

 

Basically we are going to pay billions up front to keep everything the same with new labels. Some excellent diplomacy from the UK

Edited December 8, 2017 by AlphonseCapone

[AlphonseCapone]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Your namesake really doesn't look like he believes in the platform he is on in that picture.

[Boris]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Your namesake really doesn't look like he believes in the platform he is on in that picture.

 

A sort of  look from the shaggy haired Tory pillock.

[Cade]

Nothing's been sorted though.

 

It's just been kicked down the road a bit to allow the next round of talks to start.

The Irish Border question is still very much a sticking point.

[jambo lodge]

Love all the speculation on here. Earlier this week it was haha what a shambles. Now the talks are moving on to the next stage its trying to ridicule the hard line brexiteers. Why cant the cynics understand that the EU needs to do a deal just as much as we do. The end deal will be much better than being ruled by Brussels that's for sure.   

[Cade]

Folk also keep banging on about the two Irish referenda on the Lisbon Treaty.

 

1st one was defeated 53%-47%.

 

Ireland then won lots of concessions from the EU.

 

Second one then romped home at 67%-33%. A swing of over 20% to Yes.

 

The Eu did not "make Ireland vote again until they gave the right answer". Ireland fought for, and won, many concessions before the second vote, fundamentally changing what people were voting for.

[AlphonseCapone]

12 minutes ago, Cade said:

Folk also keep banging on about the two Irish referenda on the Lisbon Treaty.

 

1st one was defeated 53%-47%.

 

Ireland then won lots of concessions from the EU.

 

Second one then romped home at 67%-33%. A swing of over 20% to Yes.

 

The Eu did not "make Ireland vote again until they gave the right answer". Ireland fought for, and won, many concessions before the second vote, fundamentally changing what people were voting for.

 

aye it was quite fairytale

[jake]

38 minutes ago, Cade said:

Nothing's been sorted though.

 

It's just been kicked down the road a bit to allow the next round of talks to start.

The Irish Border question is still very much a sticking point.

Yawn

[Pans Jambo]

Wait the noo...

 

So N.I. gets:

 

Stay in the Customs Union

Stay part of the Common Market

N.I. Citizens remain EU Citizens and all the free travel & work etc that affords

No hard border between it an Eire

Remain wholly part of the UK

Keep using Pound Sterling as its currency

 

Well well well, Almost all of the above were impossible for Scotland during the Indy ref and now look!

 

Anyone living in Scotland today NOT want the above if N.I. are getting it?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Pans Jambo

[jake]

29 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Love all the speculation on here. Earlier this week it was haha what a shambles. Now the talks are moving on to the next stage its trying to ridicule the hard line brexiteers. Why cant the cynics understand that the EU needs to do a deal just as much as we do. The end deal will be much better than being ruled by Brussels that's for sure.   

Regardless of the EU 27 (lol) the German export figures are down.

The UK has for the last 60 years been in Germany's top 5 for exports.

Brexit has hurt the German economy.

It may call itself the EU 27 but it dances to the tune of the German economy.

 

I'm no expert of course.

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Wait the noo...

 

So N.I. gets:

 

Stay in the Customs Union

Stay part of the Common Market

N.I. Citizens remain EU Citizens and all the free travel & work etc that affords

No hard border between it an Eire

Remain wholly part of the UK

Keep using Pound Sterling as its currency

 

Well well well, All of the above were impossible for Scotland during the Indy ref and now look!

 

Anyone living in Scotland today NOT want the above if N.I. are getting it?

Yes .

But we voted to remain part of the UK.

Ireland and the North are as you know in a very different process.

I'm for independence also but I find it annoying the arguments made by Indy voters against brexit.

It's almost as if they have stole the script from the unionist campaign.

 

[jake]

33 minutes ago, Cade said:

Folk also keep banging on about the two Irish referenda on the Lisbon Treaty.

 

1st one was defeated 53%-47%.

 

Ireland then won lots of concessions from the EU.

 

Second one then romped home at 67%-33%. A swing of over 20% to Yes.

 

The Eu did not "make Ireland vote again until they gave the right answer". Ireland fought for, and won, many concessions before the second vote, fundamentally changing what people were voting for.

Yawn

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, jake said:

Yes .

But we voted to remain part of the UK.

Ireland and the North are as you know in a very different process.

I'm for independence also but I find it annoying the arguments made by Indy voters against brexit.

It's almost as if they have stole the script from the unionist campaign.

 

I know we did but what I dont get is that Scotland voted to remain part of the EU which seems like EXACTLY what N.I. is getting and what the Scottish Government asked for (but was flatly refused). 

 

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

I know we did but what I dont get is that Scotland voted to remain part of the EU which seems like EXACTLY what N.I. is getting and what the Scottish Government asked for (but was flatly refused). 

 

 

Point taken.

But would you not agree that the Irish question is completely different.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

UK citizens living in the EU after 2019 will no longer be able to move freely around and work anywhere within the EU.

They will only be allowed to work in their country of residence, so according to Sky News.

Also something about having to apply for residency.

I am trying to find a link for it, but have not found one yet.

[jake]

Anyway I'd happily vote brexit again if for no other reason than Poly Toynbee.?

[Boris]

42 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Love all the speculation on here. Earlier this week it was haha what a shambles. Now the talks are moving on to the next stage its trying to ridicule the hard line brexiteers. Why cant the cynics understand that the EU needs to do a deal just as much as we do. The end deal will be much better than being ruled by Brussels that's for sure.   

 

Because the hard line brexiteers have had to eat humble pie to get to the next stage?

 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, jake said:

Point taken.

But would you not agree that the Irish question is completely different.

I dont disagree Jake but it seems 10 DUP MP's are wagging the Tory dog here. The Scottish government accepted that Brexit was happening but asked to remain in the customs union/common market and was told to GTF and here they are giving that and more to one section of the UK whilst the others get heehaw except whatever is coming down the pipeline in 2018.

 

Tad unfair dont you think?

[jambo lodge]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Because the hard line brexiteers have had to eat humble pie to get to the next stage?

 

 

Correct, as have all the cynics.

[jake]

Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

UK citizens living in the EU after 2019 will no longer be able to move freely around and work anywhere within the EU.

They will only be allowed to work in their country of residence, so according to Sky News.

Also something about having to apply for residency.

I am trying to find a link for it, but have not found one yet.

Is this an EU proposal?

 

If it is more evidence that we definitely need to get out this Soviet style centralised corruption.

A parliament that cannot propose or repeal legislation.

We are or would be governed by a committee.

 

[Boris]

Just now, jambo lodge said:

 

Correct, as have all the cynics.

 

Because....?

 

A deal has been done, so far?

[Boris]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Is this an EU proposal?

 

If it is more evidence that we definitely need to get out this Soviet style centralised corruption.

A parliament that cannot propose or repeal legislation.

We are or would be governed by a committee.

 

 

[jake]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I dont disagree Jake but it seems 10 DUP MP's are wagging the Tory dog here. The Scottish government accepted that Brexit was happening but asked to remain in the customs union/common market and was told to GTF and here they are giving that and more to one section of the UK whilst the others get heehaw except whatever is coming down the pipeline in 2018.

 

Tad unfair dont you think?

It's a bit more complexes than that.

Everyone knows that we sorry the Irish are moving towards a united Ireland.

Demographics will eventually lead to this.

[jake]

Just now, Boris said:

 

Lol.

Aye fair enough Boris.

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, jake said:

It's a bit more complexes than that.

Everyone knows that we sorry the Irish are moving towards a united Ireland.

Demographics will eventually lead to this.

 

I dont care but I think I will be dead before theres a united Ireland. More chance of seeing Rangers & Celtic merging.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Is this an EU proposal?

 

If it is more evidence that we definitely need to get out this Soviet style centralised corruption.

A parliament that cannot propose or repeal legislation.

We are or would be governed by a committee.

 

 

Could be, but I'll keep my powder dry until I hear more about it.

All I know is that the Sky News European correspondent was saying that he would not be able to do his job, simply because as he lives in Belgium (I think), he would not be allowed to cover stories elsewhere in the EU, also he was saying that Brits living in the EU are furious as they feel they have been sold down the river, by whom, that remains to be seen.

However there are to be further talks in phase 2 about this seemingly, so much for the EU banging on about citizens rights when they are quite happy to kick some parts of it into the second phase.

 

 

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

6 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

The trade deal will be based on the UK essentially remaining in but saying it isn't so as not to upset the Eurosceptics in the Tory party. Be amazed if they are thick enough to buy this.

 

Theresa can backslap all she wants, this deal doesn't get through parliament imo, it's a con.

Swiss Model? Out but multiple bilateral deals between the UK and EU? 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

This gives a bit more details.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20171208/brits-in-france-left-furious-over-uks-deal-on-citizens-rights

 

Seems that both the UK & EU are getting it in the neck from Brits living abroad.

"This deal is even worse than we expected. After 18 months of wrangling the UK and EU have sold 4.5 mn people down the river in a grubby bargain that will have a severe impact on ordinary people’s ability to live their lives as we do now."