Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Space Mackerel]

Good point made on the radio there, expect a lot of businesses upping sticks and heading off to Northern Ireland now, best of both worlds.

 

Doesnt really sound like a United Kingdom when certain citizens have more rights than others. 

 

What a mess. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

Good point made on the radio there, expect a lot of businesses upping sticks and heading off to Northern Ireland now, best of both worlds.

 

Doesnt really sound like a United Kingdom when certain citizens have more rights than others. 

 

What a mess. 

 

According to you, that's always been the case with the English occupation of the other British Kingdoms.

 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

According to you, that's always been the case with the English occupation of the other British Kingdoms.

 

 

Whit? 

[IMac]

I was a strong Remainer after being a No voter. I believe in the EU project and a federal EU (and UK). I have decided that the current course of the UK is incompatible with my political outlook. Bring on IndyRef 2. I still dislike both the SNP and the greens. 

[AlphonseCapone]

10 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

This gives a bit more details.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20171208/brits-in-france-left-furious-over-uks-deal-on-citizens-rights

 

Seems that both the UK & EU are getting it in the neck from Brits living abroad.

"This deal is even worse than we expected. After 18 months of wrangling the UK and EU have sold 4.5 mn people down the river in a grubby bargain that will have a severe impact on ordinary people’s ability to live their lives as we do now."

 

 

I'm not sure what they were hoping for Jambo-Jimbo?

 

It wasn't going to be possible for them to have freedom of movement beyond the country they are staying in unless the UK agrees to carte blanche freedom of movement into here, which is a big no no for the more eurosceptical thinkers and also to be honest would make the whole idea of leaving a bit silly if we did just give up the right to control our borders. There is no way Brits abroad should get a special movement pass if us here can't.

 

Maybe I am not understanding their argument but it seemed apparent all along that freedom of movement and trade talks would be linked. I think we will agree to both freedom of movement and get free trade which would be a waste of time tbh, essentially status quo, but I can't see how else it all works.

[doctor jambo]

13 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Good point made on the radio there, expect a lot of businesses upping sticks and heading off to Northern Ireland now, best of both worlds.

 

Doesnt really sound like a United Kingdom when certain citizens have more rights than others. 

 

What a mess. 

Don't think so- NI is a feckin dump, not many places you can go where seeing Stranraer is welcome

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I'm not sure what they were hoping for Jambo-Jimbo?

 

It wasn't going to be possible for them to have freedom of movement beyond the country they are staying in unless the UK agrees to carte blanche freedom of movement into here, which is a big no no for the more eurosceptical thinkers and also to be honest would make the whole idea of leaving a bit silly if we did just give up the right to control our borders. There is no way Brits abroad should get a special movement pass if us here can't.

 

Maybe I am not understanding their argument but it seemed apparent all along that freedom of movement and trade talks would be linked. I think we will agree to both freedom of movement and get free trade which would be a waste of time tbh, essentially status quo, but I can't see how else it all works.

 

By the sounds of things, I think they thought things would just remain exactly like they are now, which TBH were always unlikely to do so.

This doesn't affect the retired Brits living abroad all that much as only a small percentage will be working, however it affects Brits living and working in the EU, which many young Brits had declared their intention to leave the UK and move to the EU so as they could enjoy the freedom of work and travel, well they will be free to travel but unless something gets worked out they might be restricted when it comes to working.

 

[Space Mackerel]

13 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Don't think so- NI is a feckin dump, not many places you can go where seeing Stranraer is welcome

 

 

I’ve been to both and I can honestly say NI would be my preferred place of residence by a country mile. 

[Pans Jambo]

29 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

According to you, that's always been the case with the English occupation of the other British Kingdoms.

 

So N.I. and Scotland are just 'English occupied' kingdoms?

 

Not a partnership of equals then? Better together?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Pans Jambo

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

So N.I. and Scotland are just 'English occupied' kingdoms?

 

Not a partnership of equals then? Better together?

 

According to some on here we are.

 

Partnership of equals, that's a myth and has never ever been.

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

According to some on here we are.

 

Partnership of equals, that's a myth and has never ever been.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

30 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

By the sounds of things, I think they thought things would just remain exactly like they are now, which TBH were always unlikely to do so.

This doesn't affect the retired Brits living abroad all that much as only a small percentage will be working, however it affects Brits living and working in the EU, which many young Brits had declared their intention to leave the UK and move to the EU so as they could enjoy the freedom of work and travel, well they will be free to travel but unless something gets worked out they might be restricted when it comes to working.

 

It may be more difficult but probably not much more so for those qualified to work in EU countries and whose qualifications are in demand. France and Germany for example seem very keen to attract people working in Finance post-Brexit.

 

British people worked and lived in Europe long before we joined the EU, or the EU was created.

 

Many non-EU citizens work and live in the EU including in the UK.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Francis Albert

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

According to some on here we are.

 

Partnership of equals, that's a myth and has never ever been.

 

 

Of course it’s not but a lot of people will argue the toss abou it. 

As a little example if I have 85% of the shares of a company and you have 8.5% who has control? 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It may be more difficult but probably not much more so for those qualified to work in EU countries and whose qualifications are in demand. France and Germany for example seem very keen to attract people working in Finance post-Brexit.

 

British people worked and lived in Europe long before we joined the EU, or the EU was created.

 

Many non-EU citizens work and live in the EU including in the UK.

 

And that is something which many people just don't realise.

 

British people travelled to, lived and worked in Continental Europe and vice versa with little to no restrictions long before the EU was even thought off.

For many the EU is the only thing they have ever known, I get that, I understand that, but life did exist before the EU and It'll exist long after the EU is a distant memory.

[Boris]

20 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And that is something which many people just don't realise.

 

British people travelled to, lived and worked in Continental Europe and vice versa with little to no restrictions long before the EU was even thought off.

For many the EU is the only thing they have ever known, I get that, I understand that, but life did exist before the EU and It'll exist long after the EU is a distant memory.

 

Prior to the EU I would imagine that the UK had seperate agreements with every other country?  Didn't people need a work visa, that sort of thing?  How easily they were given, I don't know.  Now, the EU being what it is, the UK will need to reach agreement with all 27 countries.  Still a tricky business!

[maroonlegions]

So May has made three big concessions to save her skin and force through a demi deal, for now anyway,.

 

With the DUP breathing down her neck what next  will she sacrifice.

 

 I cannot think of any British parallel for this sell-out since Henry VIII. Those who voted for Brexit under this regime of Right retards had better think hard.

I think many will rue the decision of the referendum .The combination of Brexit under a neo-orwellian  regime like this one is really risky and will drive our country further downhill, on the back of the Conservatives cruel and malicious record of unnecessary austerity since 2010. I am not optimistic at all.

 

Theresa May has repeatedly insisted that Britain will definitely be leaving the single market and customs union in March 2019.

However, the text of the Brexit deal struck in the last 24 hours suggests otherwise.

Point 49 of the text, pictured below, says that if British negotiators fail to come up with a means of avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then the UK "will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union."

 

The 3 big concessions May made to the EU on the Brexit divorce deal

May makes key concessions in order to push through a deal in time for the EU summit. 

MSN.COM

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by maroonlegions

[Cade]

One senior EU official said: "We cannot upset relations with other third countries. If we were to give the UK a very lopsided deal then the other partners with whom we have been engaging and entered into balanced agreements would of course come back and question those agreements.

Some of these agreements have specific most favoured nation clauses: if you give better to others you will have to come back and give us the same. So also for this reason we need to maintain this balance of rights and obligations."

 

 

[maroonlegions]

What a fecking  mess she and her stoogies have made of this divorce bill.

 

 

 

Theresa May has repeatedly insisted that Britain will definitely be leaving the single market and customs union in March 2019.

However, the text of the Brexit deal struck in the last 24 hours suggests otherwise.

Point 49 of the text, pictured below, says that if British negotiators fail to come up with a means of avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then the UK "will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union."

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by maroonlegions

[maroonlegions]

6 minutes ago, Cade said:

One senior EU official said: "We cannot upset relations with other third countries. If we were to give the UK a very lopsided deal then the other partners with whom we have been engaging and entered into balanced agreements would of course come back and question those agreements.

Some of these agreements have specific most favoured nation clauses: if you give better to others you will have to come back and give us the same. So also for this reason we need to maintain this balance of rights and obligations."

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Prior to the EU I would imagine that the UK had seperate agreements with every other country?  Didn't people need a work visa, that sort of thing?  How easily they were given, I don't know.  Now, the EU being what it is, the UK will need to reach agreement with all 27 countries.  Still a tricky business!

I don't believe there were multiple bilateral agreements. People moving abroad simply had to meet the residency requirements of the country they were moving to. In much the same way as EU citizens currently have to if they move outside the EU and non EU citizens have to if they move to an EU state. As UK immigration figures show as many non-EU citizens move to the UK as EU citizens do. As a marginal remainer (while not a fan much of what the EU represents) I find the idea that "Freedom of Movement" should dictate the future relationship between UK and EU a bit repugnant. For all the middle class well educated people demonstrating that there future is "ruined", the freedom of movement is one of those theoretical freedoms that only a small minority enjoy (like the freedom to dine at the Ritz or own a Rolls Royce). There isn't in practice "freedom of movement" within the UK - an unemployed and ill educated youth in the North of England, let alone an unemployed man or women with family responsibilities, has no real freedom to move to get a job in London.

Freedom of movement guarantees businesses cheap labour.

If businesses need skills they are prepared to pay for, they will attract employees from within and if necessary outside the UK (or businesses in any other state, in or out of the EU) with or without "freedom of movement".

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Prior to the EU I would imagine that the UK had seperate agreements with every other country?  Didn't people need a work visa, that sort of thing?  How easily they were given, I don't know.  Now, the EU being what it is, the UK will need to reach agreement with all 27 countries.  Still a tricky business!

 

Prior to the EU, it would have been the EEC from the early 70's at any rate, before that I would imagine separate trade deals.

TBH I don't really know how easy or hard the issuing of work visa's were, if indeed you needed one, however I think if you had skills which were in demand then things would have been a lot easier, equally if you had little or no skills then moving from one country to another would have been more difficult.

 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't believe there were multiple bilateral agreements. People moving abroad simply had to meet the residency requirements of the country they were moving to. In much the same way as EU citizens currently have to if they move outside the EU and non EU citizens have to if they move to an EU state. As UK immigration figures show as many non-EU citizens move to the UK as EU citizens do. As a marginal remainer (while not a fan much of what the EU represents) I find the idea that "Freedom of Movement" should dictate the future relationship between UK and EU a bit repugnant. For all the middle class well educated people demonstrating that there future is "ruined", the freedom of movement is one of those theoretical freedoms that only a small minority enjoy (like the freedom to dine at the Ritz or own a Rolls Royce). There isn't in practice "freedom of movement" within the UK - an unemployed and ill educated youth in the North of England, let alone an unemployed man or women with family responsibilities, has no real freedom to move to get a job in London.

Freedom of movement guarantees businesses cheap labour.

If businesses need skills they are prepared to pay for, they will attract employees from within and if necessary outside the UK (or businesses in any other state, in or out of the EU) with or without "freedom of movement".

 

Even if you have a minimum/living wage?

 

It's not freedom of movements fault, it's unscrupulous business owners, no?

[Francis Albert]

14 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

What a fecking  mess she and her stoogies have made of this divorce bill.

 

 

 

Theresa May has repeatedly insisted that Britain will definitely be leaving the single market and customs union in March 2019.

However, the text of the Brexit deal struck in the last 24 hours suggests otherwise.

Point 49 of the text, pictured below, says that if British negotiators fail to come up with a means of avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then the UK "will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union."

 

 

 

I don't quite read it that way. I think it says that the rules will be aligned insofar as the relationship between the UK and Ireland and between Northern Ireland and the RoI is concerned. So no hard border between North and South of Ireland or  or "across the Irish Sea", those relationships being aligned with the rules of the EU which support the relationship between the UK and Ireland, and within Ireland, and protect the 1998 agreement. It does not seem to me that this rules out a hard border between the UK and the other 26 EU members.

Of course that leaves (deliberately I suspect) a number of tricky issues for Phase 2.

 

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Even if you have a minimum/living wage?

 

It's not freedom of movements fault, it's unscrupulous business owners, no?

Unfortunately unscrupulous business owners are a fact of life and minimum wage requirements are difficult if not impossible to enforce or can be easily subverted  if people are willing to work for less

Edited December 8, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Prior to the EU, it would have been the EEC from the early 70's at any rate, before that I would imagine separate trade deals.

TBH I don't really know how easy or hard the issuing of work visa's were, if indeed you needed one, however I think if you had skills which were in demand then things would have been a lot easier, equally if you had little or no skills then moving from one country to another would have been more difficult.

 

If you have little or no skills moving from one country to another within the EU is still difficult. For example almost all East European and other EU migrants to the UK can speak at least reasonably fluent English. Unfortunately any level of fluency in a foreign language is rare among we Brits. 

[jake]

Meant to reply there not post

Edited December 8, 2017 by jake
Forgot quote

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Unfortunately unscrupulous business owners are a fact of life and minimum wage requirements are difficult if not impossible to enforce or can be easily subverted  if people are willing to work for less

 

They needn't be.

[maroonlegions]

30 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't quite read it that way. I think it says that the rules will be aligned insofar as the relationship between the UK and Ireland and between Northern Ireland and the RoI is concerned. So no hard border between North and South of Ireland or  or "across the Irish Sea", those relationships being aligned with the rules of the EU which support the relationship between the UK and Ireland, and within Ireland, and protect the 1998 agreement. It does not seem to me that this rules out a hard border between the UK and the other 26 EU members.

Of course that leaves (deliberately I suspect) a number of tricky issues for Phase 2.

 

 

Tricky issues is of course open to interpretation and i for one think that the more you look at this the more "cunning" it is. Its the so called technological solutions to maintain a "soft border" that  are tricky.

 

Matthew Holehouse added,

Radosław SikorskiVerified account @sikorskiradek

I read this as meaning: UK can propose technical solutions for avoiding a hard border but, if they are not realistic enough, Northern Ireland's regulations, of its own volition, will align with the Republic and the EU. https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/939024766081540097 …

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

37 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If you have little or no skills moving from one country to another within the EU is still difficult. For example almost all East European and other EU migrants to the UK can speak at least reasonably fluent English. Unfortunately any level of fluency in a foreign language is rare among we Brits. 

No it isn't

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

No it isn't

Of course for some. But for most it is not a practical option in reality.

 

[Unknown user]

36 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Of course for some. But for most it is not a practical option in reality.

 

It's not more difficult than for the eastern Europeans you mention though. I see loads of eastern Europeans new to the country at my work - how many of them speak fluent dutch when they arrive do you reckon? Yep, none. They get the job because they've got English as a second language. 

I get asked all the time if I have any pals moving over, they'd much rather have us, in this factory at least. 

 

In fact, if anyone's moving to holland and wants to work in a factory in edam for 14 euros an hour pm me!

Edited December 8, 2017 by Smithee

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It's not more difficult than for the eastern Europeans you mention though. I see loads of eastern Europeans new to the country at my work - how many of them speak fluent dutch when they arrive do you reckon? Yep, none. They get the job because they've got English as a second language. 

I get asked all the time if I have any pals moving over, they'd much rather have us, in this factory at least. 

 

In fact, if anyone's moving to holland and wants to work in a factory in edam for 14 euros an hour pm me!

I bow to your greater knowledge but out of interest how many eastern europeans in the factory are older people with families?

 

Anyway I suspect that  post brexit even if the uk is not commited to free movement under eu rules your factory will not find it difficult to employ brits if they want them.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I bow to your greater knowledge but out of interest how many eastern europeans in the factory are older people with families?

 

Anyway I suspect that  post brexit even if the uk is not commited to free movement under eu rules your factory will not find it difficult to employ brits if they want them.

 

 

 

Brits will be queuing up at Calais to get out to work in Edam

[Don Dan]

Passports, Holiday Visas and Working Visas. Now there’s a novel idea. 

[Francis Albert]

16 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Brits will be queuing up at Calais to get out to work in Edam

Or if the wilder Remainers fears are justified, camped in a "jungle" outside Dover surrounded by barbed wire, occasionally escaping to hang onto the back of cross-Channel lorries.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Or if the wilder Remainers fears are justified, camped in a "jungle" outside Dover surrounded by barbed wire, occasionally escaping to hang onto the back of cross-Channel lorries.

 

You may laugh, theres a lot of pissed off hard right Brexiteers out there now, cue Farages next installment in the political spotlight.

This could maybe reignite UKIP, something the Torys have obviously been trying to neuter since the ref.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

It's not more difficult than for the eastern Europeans you mention though. I see loads of eastern Europeans new to the country at my work - how many of them speak fluent dutch when they arrive do you reckon? Yep, none. They get the job because they've got English as a second language. 

I get asked all the time if I have any pals moving over, they'd much rather have us, in this factory at least. 

 

In fact, if anyone's moving to holland and wants to work in a factory in edam for 14 euros an hour pm me!

Plus travel expenses and a thirteenth wage as extra in June.

 

Why am I coming home again?

[jambo lodge]

22 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You may laugh, theres a lot of pissed off hard right Brexiteers out there now, cue Farages next installment in the political spotlight.

This could maybe reignite UKIP, something the Torys have obviously been trying to neuter since the ref.

 

Aye, you wish........only so Nicola can sound the trumpet once again!

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

 

Aye, you wish........only so Nicola can sound the trumpet once again!

 

Never mentioned it, youre awfy para about the bigger picture though.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

This is becoming a symbolic exit - no meaningful difference at all and certainly not in a positive state. A sensible government would have put a stop to all this ages ago.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

38 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You may laugh, theres a lot of pissed off hard right Brexiteers out there now, cue Farages next installment in the political spotlight.

This could maybe reignite UKIP, something the Torys have obviously been trying to neuter since the ref.

 

I’m not sure. The average punter must be sick to death of hearing about Brexit. 

[Space Mackerel]

30 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

I’m not sure. The average punter must be sick to death of hearing about Brexit. 

 

Its only just kicked off and we havent played the first 15 mins yet.

[Space Mackerel]

Ruthy, FFS

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

This is becoming a symbolic exit - no meaningful difference at all and certainly not in a positive state. A sensible government would have put a stop to all this ages ago.

There absolutely has to be a visible meaningful difference from the EU's point of view, otherwise the other EU states start asking why they're paying their membership dues with no visible benefit compared to those who aren't paying in at all. 

 

It's absolutely vital to the future of the EU that Britain gets a worse deal than it has now

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Ruthy, FFS

 

 

I’m not one for beating the drum about another Indyref but Davidson has shown herself up to be an absolute arse once again. 

She gets one easy ride from the media up here. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m not one for beating the drum about another Indyref but Davidson has shown herself up to be an absolute arse once again. 

She gets one easy ride from the media up here. 

Indeed

[Space Mackerel]

37 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m not one for beating the drum about another Indyref but Davidson has shown herself up to be an absolute arse once again. 

She gets one easy ride from the media up here. 

 

She's clearly an intelligent woman, maybe politics is just not for her. Ive always wondered how an ex BBC reporter somehow was parachuted into the Unionist Party up here, was it luck or based on merit? Or was there nobody else that could do the "job"

Youre right, she definitely right she gets an easy ride up here, have a look at this from her former paymasters, Jackie Bird and Campbell giving it big licks. 

 

"Weaponise"

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Space Mackerel

[ri Alban]

14 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

Though the internet skews itthe vast majority of people don't and never believed either would be a doddle or impossible.

Yip, jacks putting words in peoples mouths. 

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, jake said:

Point taken.

But would you not agree that the Irish question is completely different.

Feck Ireland! 

[jack D and coke]

10 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Feck Ireland! 

It is Aussieh