Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Brighton Jambo]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

Don't disagree that it won't get through Parliament. I'm also in favour of a second vote.

But party politics aside, May is one of the most resilient feckers I've ever seen. Would seem churlish to not recognise that. 

I agree with this.  Absolutely no one could have negotiated a good deal as the EU would never have agreed to it.  Labours absolutely ridiculous 6 tests where we leave but with exactly the same benefits as we had before shows they had zero clue and the right of the Tory party wanted a catatophic no deal.  This is properbly the best we could have hoped for but party politics will dictate and we will end up in a bigger clusterf*ck

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Show time

 

 

This is gonna be carnage. May will be toast.

[Mikey1874]

23 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Absolutely no one could have negotiated a good deal as the EU would never have agreed to it.  

 

I think this sums up the position. The power has been with the EU. And they have used the N.Ireland backstop illusion wonderfully (no-one ever was / is going to put in a hard border).

 

I think where we are was near inevitable. You can go into all the detail including the Brexiteers having no leader. But a close relationship to EU in a divided country with pro business, mainly pro remain leaders in a pro remain Parliament was always the deal. 

 

Still, this is just the start. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Mikey1874

[Notts1874]

What a waste of time,effort and money.

[The Mighty Thor]

10 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Show time

 

 

This is gonna be carnage. May will be toast.

Probably.

This 'deal won't make it past cabinet let alone parliament.

They won't bin her now though, she's still got mileage as the patsy.  

Remember there's still time to cobble a deal together of some fashion therefore there's no chance Boris or his cronies are going to stick their heads up just yet. 

They'll wait until it's no deal Brexit before they emerge from the slime.

[Brighton Jambo]

16 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Show time

 

 

This is gonna be carnage. May will be toast.

Be careful what you wish for, we end up with a hardened brexiteer as pm and we will walk into a no deal that will seem 10 times worse than the deal May has pulled together 

[SwindonJambo]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Be careful what you wish for, we end up with a hardened brexiteer as pm and we will walk into a no deal that will seem 10 times worse than the deal May has pulled together 

 

Much as I dislike her , I agree. We have far too many self serving politicians who put their personal ambitions ahead of the needs of the country. Tossers the lot of them. No Deal is the worst possible deal and no mistake. Labour will vote against it just to cause chaos and hope to force a no confidence vote and GE. The current iteration of Labour couldn’t run a bath. What a clusterf**k the whole thing is. Cameron’s 100% responsible for all this and he’s living opulently out of the public eye.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

May Day tomorrow, Hitfanshit time, it's gonna kick off big time we're all doomed I tell yi, time for Budge to sort it out 

[jake]

Oh my the uncertainty of it all.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

I've no big issue against people wanting to leave. 

 

But Farage, Johnston, Rees-Mogg, James Dyson etc want a society where business can do what they want. Low wages, poor conditions, low taxes on the rich. No deal suits them as a starting point. Unfortunately for them it could also mean a Labour government. 

 

[jake]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

I've no big issue against people wanting to leave. 

 

But Farage, Johnston, Rees-Mogg, James Dyson etc want a society where business can do what they want. Low wages, poor conditions, low taxes on the rich. No deal suits them as a starting point. Unfortunately for them it could also mean a Labour government. 

 

Isn't that what we have already? 

Except there's freedom of movement to suit the richer nations?

[jambo89]

8 minutes ago, jake said:

Isn't that what we have already? 

Except there's freedom of movement to suit the richer nations?

This!

[Jambo-Jimbo]

28 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

Much as I dislike her , I agree. We have far too many self serving politicians who put their personal ambitions ahead of the needs of the country. Tossers the lot of them. No Deal is the worst possible deal and no mistake. Labour will vote against it just to cause chaos and hope to force a no confidence vote and GE. The current iteration of Labour couldn’t run a bath. What a clusterf**k the whole thing is. Cameron’s 100% responsible for all this and he’s living opulently out of the public eye.

 

Sorry but I must disagree with you on this, if Juncker & Tusk had listened to Cameron instead of laughing at him when he warned them that the UK was ready to leave the EU if the EU didn't show the people of the UK some flexibility when Cameron tried to negioatate some concessions from the EU in January 2016 then we wouldn't be here now.  This info came from a very close aid to Juncker about 6 months after the UK voted to leave, the EU never in a month of Sunday's thought the UK would leave.

 

The rest of your post I agree with, there are too many people on both the remain & leave camps who are putting their own personal ambitions & wealth before the best interests of the Country.

[ronsajambo]

Interesting perspective, JJ. However, did DC genuinely believed that the UK would leave the EU or was this a negotiating position to try and advance UK interests? Allegedly pro-Europe, if DC believed an exit vote was likely would  he have gone to the country? I suggest not. Remember, this was a party that suggested that Scotland’s future in the EU could only be maintained if it  rejected independence. 

Puting aside the politicians (potential) mantra to advocate anything if it reinforces their own potential viewpont, DC does not come out of this with any credit. He misjudged completely the perspectives of large swathes of the UK public - and the capacity of members of his own party to support/influence  a brexit decision. Worse, his lack of awareness (which many were guilty off) led to an unnecessary referendum. The purpose, in my view, was to quiten the stringent views of those on the right/pro Brexit within his party. To put party interests ahead of the country was unforgivable. Ignorance is no excuse.  

[jake]

Can I ask if any remain people feel the news is like a Soviet style editorial and narrative .

In favour of remain off course.

C4 news and their minute brexit and now newsnight.

?

[Francis Albert]

45 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Sorry but I must disagree with you on this, if Juncker & Tusk had listened to Cameron instead of laughing at him when he warned them that the UK was ready to leave the EU if the EU didn't show the people of the UK some flexibility when Cameron tried to negioatate some concessions from the EU in January 2016 then we wouldn't be here now.  This info came from a very close aid to Juncker about 6 months after the UK voted to leave, the EU never in a month of Sunday's thought the UK would leave.

 

The rest of your post I agree with, there are too many people on both the remain & leave camps who are putting their own personal ambitions & wealth before the best interests of the Country.

Agree with that except that it wasn't just Juncker and Tusk and the rest of the EU that didn't believe the UK would vote leave - Cemeron and most of the MPs who voted 6 to 1 to hold the referendum thought the same. 

 

The BBC's all out negativity tonight  about the news a deal may just be possible, after months and years of scare stories about a no deal outcome,and in the absence of any real knowledge of what the potential deal is, was typical of the continuing failure to accept that the people voted to.leave.

We even had a repeat of the scare that a no deal would involve no transition period ... that BMWs and Audis and Mercs and Fiats and so on and on would simply cease to be exported to the UK in March next year while Angela and Macron accepted German and French car workers being laid off as a result.

[Francis Albert]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

Can I ask if any remain people feel the news is like a Soviet style editorial and narrative .

In favour of remain off course.

C4 news and their minute brexit and now newsnight.

?

I was not a remain person. But as a democrat who respects the referendum vote I agree with your view of the way news is being presented. See above post on the BBC news tonight.

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, ronsajambo said:

Interesting perspective, JJ. However, did DC genuinely believed that the UK would leave the EU or was this a negotiating position to try and advance UK interests? Allegedly pro-Europe, if DC believed an exit vote was likely would  he have gone to the country? I suggest not. Remember, this was a party that suggested that Scotland’s future in the EU could only be maintained if it  rejected independence. 

Puting aside the politicians (potential) mantra to advocate anything if it reinforces their own potential viewpont, DC does not come out of this with any credit. He misjudged completely the perspectives of large swathes of the UK public - and the capacity of members of his own party to support/influence  a brexit decision. Worse, his lack of awareness (which many were guilty off) led to an unnecessary referendum. The purpose, in my view, was to quiten the stringent views of those on the right/pro Brexit within his party. To put party interests ahead of the country was unforgivable. Ignorance is no excuse.  

While I agree with what you say about Cameron he has at least not joined in the attempts by other failed former PMs to overturn the democratic  vote of the UK electorate which he for however misguided reasons actually gave them.

[ronsajambo]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Agree with that except that it wasn't just Juncker and Tusk and the rest of the EU that didn't believe the UK would vote leave - Cemeron and most of the MPs who voted 6 to 1 to hold the referendum thought the same. 

 

16 minutes ago, ronsajambo said:

Interesting perspective, JJ. However, did DC genuinely believed that the UK would leave the EU or was this a negotiating position to try and advance UK interests? Allegedly pro-Europe, if DC believed an exit vote was likely would  he have gone to the country? I suggest not. Remember, this was a party that suggested that Scotland’s future in the EU could only be maintained if it  rejected independence.

Fair comment FA. However, something I am wrestling with - as a Democrat. In two separate referendums I have seen results strongly influenced by blatant misrepresentation. To what extent does this potentially negate the so-defined democratic decision where it is based on eronious information (Health expenditure Brexit Bus (UK referendum) Scotland in EU (Indedependence referendum). 

My fear is that so many people are so tired of voting that the current outcomes are ‘better’ than yet another vote. Quite sad given the engagement that the independence referendum generated amongst both sides of the debate. 

[ronsajambo]

23 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

While I agree with what you say about Cameron he has at least not joined in the attempts by other failed former PMs to overturn the democratic  vote of the UK electorate which he for however misguided reasons actually gave them.

Yep....DC exited stage left which I had grudging respect for. Grudging in so far as he was in substantial part the cause of the crisis he left for others to ‘deal with’.  Still have reservations in so far as a democratic vote is ‘democratic’ when the information driving the decision is significantly discredited. Problem is...where does that one begin and end! 

 

Ex PMs...no comment! Heard DC was thinking about a comeback?? 

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Be careful what you wish for, we end up with a hardened brexiteer as pm and we will walk into a no deal that will seem 10 times worse than the deal May has pulled together 

Is the result I'm waiting for. Indy not far away now.

[pablo]

37 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Some Tory Brixateer on BBC just now stating this deal is worst that the Chequers proposals. Presenter then asks have you seen the proposal? The response   was no.

 

WTF people losing their shit over something they haven’t seen?!?! Confirmation bias in effect I guess.

 

Also, I don't think the negotiators will see this as a "take it or leave it" moment. Providing there isn't carnage today and mass resignations/collapse of the Government, there should be opportunity to "thank and bank" the elements that work and continue talking about those that aren't there yet.

[manaliveits105]

But the fat north east of England benefit unworkables have reduced the number of foreign workers taking the jobs they will never apply for - so all is good

[Francis Albert]

9 hours ago, ronsajambo said:

 

Fair comment FA. However, something I am wrestling with - as a Democrat. In two separate referendums I have seen results strongly influenced by blatant misrepresentation. To what extent does this potentially negate the so-defined democratic decision where it is based on eronious information (Health expenditure Brexit Bus (UK referendum) Scotland in EU (Indedependence referendum). 

My fear is that so many people are so tired of voting that the current outcomes are ‘better’ than yet another vote. Quite sad given the engagement that the independence referendum generated amongst both sides of the debate. 

In both referendums there was a great deal of misrepresentation by both sides. But that has been true of every election I have known.

 

[Francis Albert]

16 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

But the fat north east of England benefit unworkables have reduced the number of foreign workers taking the jobs they will never apply for - so all is good

I think all major parties have moved away from pretending that net immigration can or should be reduced to the low levels Cameron promised a few years back (when noone expected us to leave the EU). 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

Some Tory Brixateer on BBC just now stating this deal is worst that the Chequers proposals. Presenter then asks have you seen the proposal? The response   was no.

 

WTF people losing their shit over something they haven’t seen?!?! Confirmation bias in effect I guess.

 

The same could be said of most of the 'Remainers' who continue to predict doom & gloom when in reality none of them knows what will actually happen, simply because nobody has left the EU before so therefore there is no precedent to compare with.

 

[Victorian]

At least the lunatics like JRM and Boris Johnson are being shown up for the slavering hypocrites that they are.    Not that it was in doubt.

 

2nd referendum / peoples' vote?     NO NO NO,   we can't have that.    The people have already voted and expressed their will.     But they were not in receipt of the full facts.    Yes they were,  they knew what they were asked to vote on.

 

Draft proposal including remaining in the customs union?    NO NO NO,   we can't have that.    That's not what we were told.   It's not what Mrs May said.    We've been deceived.

 

Have ye,   aye?     Well suck on it.   What goes around,  comes around.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by Victorian

[frankblack]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Is the result I'm waiting for. Indy not far away now.

 

If I was you I'd be praying that no "peoples vote" gets approved as that will set a precedent for Indy Ref 2 and will kill any hope of an independence referendum succeeding past two votes.

[Mikey1874]

18 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If I was you I'd be praying that no "peoples vote" gets approved as that will set a precedent for Indy Ref 2 and will kill any hope of an independence referendum succeeding past two votes.

 

100%

 

It's bad enough having referendums without double checking on them.  

 

Second vote on Brexit sets a precedent. Would be a very significant step. 

[Boris]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I think all major parties have moved away from pretending that net immigration can or should be reduced to the low levels Cameron promised a few years back (when noone expected us to leave the EU). 

 

 

"I expect us to leave the EU"

 

 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

If I was you I'd be praying that no "peoples vote" gets approved as that will set a precedent for Indy Ref 2 and will kill any hope of an independence referendum succeeding past two votes.

 

I read somewhere that the "official" "Peoples Vote" campaign isn't so much about asking to remain in the EU, rather letting the people have a say on the deal concocted.

 

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/ 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Boris

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

100%

 

It's bad enough having referendums without double checking on them.  

 

Second vote on Brexit sets a precedent. Would be a very significant step. 

 

I guess the thing is that once the negotiations have taken place and the outcome is slightly more clear, people may feel they were wrongly advised originally and would like to change their mind?

 

What is about to happen has ramifications to this country for generations so should we really take the plunge due to a result based on a lack of information?

 

[Mikey1874]

13 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I guess the thing is that once the negotiations have taken place and the outcome is slightly more clear, people may feel they were wrongly advised originally and would like to change their mind?

 

What is about to happen has ramifications to this country for generations so should we really take the plunge due to a result based on a lack of information?

 

 

It's worth noting also the deal now is on the terms of exit. I do agree on the point of what was involved in leaving not being clear in 2016. But that wasn't the vote. It was simply (the principle of) leave or remain.

 

This deal isn't the future relationship including trade. That will be in 2 years time at end of transition period. Should there be a referendum on that too?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Mikey1874

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I read somewhere that the "official" "Peoples Vote" campaign isn't so much about asking to remain in the EU, rather letting the people have a say on the deal concocted.

 

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/ 

 

 

 

I don't have time to read through their website, but isn't it about having an option to reject the deal and remain in the EU?  At least that is what the politicians proposing it have been telling us.

[Boris]

18 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's worth noting also the deal now is on the terms of exit. I do agree on the point of what was involved in leaving not being clear in 2016. But that wasn't the vote. It was simply (the principle of) leave or remain.

 

This deal isn't the future relationship including trade. That will be in 2 years time at end of transition period. Should there be a referendum on that too?

 

A fair point.  Maybe?  The whole thing has been a complete balls up (imo) so who knows what may, or may not, happen next???

[Boris]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I don't have time to read through their website, but isn't it about having an option to reject the deal and remain in the EU?  At least that is what the politicians proposing it have been telling us.

 

The front page says: "The People’s Vote Campaign is made up of over 100 grassroots groups from across the country who are actively campaigning in their area for a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal."

 

No mention of remain.

 

Some politicians have been asking for a second referendum on remain/leave, and I suspect that those calls are being conflated with this "Peoples Vote" campaign.

[Mikey1874]

20 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I don't have time to read through their website, but isn't it about having an option to reject the deal and remain in the EU?  At least that is what the politicians proposing it have been telling us.

 

That is what it is about. 

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

The front page says: "The People’s Vote Campaign is made up of over 100 grassroots groups from across the country who are actively campaigning in their area for a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal."

 

No mention of remain.

 

Some politicians have been asking for a second referendum on remain/leave, and I suspect that those calls are being conflated with this "Peoples Vote" campaign.

 

The problem with the "People's vote" is that how many votes are you supposed to have and at which point does the leave decision get abandoned when no agreement is reached?  We decided to leave and there was no mention of a people's vote on the ballot slip to confirm it.

 

Whatever the deal is, it won't please everyone.

Edited November 14, 2018 by frankblack

[Mikey1874]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

A fair point.  Maybe?  The whole thing has been a complete balls up (imo) so who knows what may, or may not, happen next???

 

Absolutely

 

It is very uncertain what will happen

 

It all starts now

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The problem with the "People's vote" is that how many votes are you supposed to have and at which point does the leave decision get abandoned when no agreement is reached?  We decided to leave and there was no mention of a people's vote on the ballot slip to confirm it.

 

Whatever the deal is, it won't please everyone.

 

Yeah, I get where you are coming from.

 

Equally, there was nothing on the original ballot about not remaining within the CU/SM e.g. EFTA/EEA relationship with the EU would satisfy the core question of leaving the EU.

 

I suppose it is up to Parliament to decide how to take things forward.

[Victorian]

Any 2nd referendum now would naturally carry much more legitimacy because of the fact that it would be conducted amidst a debate with many more facts,  figures and other considerations now out in the public domain.     The referendum voting public now have a much clearer view of the entire subject,   as well as a draft proposal.     It could not be any further removed from the information vacuum of the first campaign.

 

Those who still refuse to recognise this obvious concept are those who are simply scared of another result.     Hiding behind the excuse of a 2nd vote being a so-called afront to democracy.    The dishonesty of that stance is a betrayal,  denial and perversion of democracy.     A healthy democracy would not fear a possible change of mind.   

Edited November 14, 2018 by Victorian

[Mikey1874]

As a point of debate not a firm view...

 

What happens if people reject what is on offer in a second vote?

 

Goes back to further negotiations then another vote? 

[frankblack]

21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

As a point of debate not a firm view...

 

What happens if people reject what is on offer in a second vote?

 

Goes back to further negotiations then another vote? 

 

Yes.  And eventually the whole thing gets swept under the carpet by remainers and eventually binned, thus remaining in the EU.

[Victorian]

36 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

As a point of debate not a firm view...

 

What happens if people reject what is on offer in a second vote?

 

Goes back to further negotiations then another vote? 

 

I think it would have to be either accept the deal or revert to no deal,    or accept the deal or remain in the EU.     Even accept deal,  no deal,  remain in EU in a 3 choice ballot.

 

Accept deal or return to further negotiations would be too unweildy.     

[Boris]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Yes.  And eventually the whole thing gets swept under the carpet by remainers and eventually binned, thus remaining in the EU.

 

Only if the people vote for it.

[jack D and coke]

Good job we’ve got that shite oil industry to help Britain out in brexit talks??

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Good job we’ve got that shite oil industry to help Britain out in brexit talks??

Fake news! 

[Victorian]

The BIG choice is coming...

 

Cabinet collective responsibility [    ]

 

Ministerial car and Secretary of State pay [    ]

 

Vote now!

[jack D and coke]

22 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Fake news! 

?

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

?